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EmeraldFields
06-02-12, 17:14
I do not dislike homosexuals, but I do believe that they need to slow down/calm down when it comes for pushing for change. You're championing a radical and largely controversial way of life. People are not going to respond kindly to large protests and campaigns. You are not going to win your rights overnight. I believe that a slower, gradual change is needed. Instead of fighting viciously for marriage as I witnessed in California, take the domestic partnership for now and slowly press for marriage, or at least the benefits of marriage before you push for the title.

I am frankly sick of the more extreme element of homosexuality trying to ram its way of life down my throat. Before you take that out of context, reread my first sentence. Many of my friends are homosexual or lean in that direction. The difference is, they represent the aspect of homosexuality that is not championed by Lady Gaga and the "majority" of San Francisco(during my time in California), the moderate "this is how I feel and want to live my life, that's totally cool if you're straight, dude" aspect. It's folks like that who I have respect for and no problem supporting and backing in their efforts.

Ok, flame away :cool:

This reads like people from the 60's who thought blacks shouldn't be protesting for civil liberties because things were "moving too fast" and they should be patient because they'll get their rights eventually.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 17:39
This reads like people from the 60's who thought blacks shouldn't be protesting for civil liberties because things were "moving too fast" and they should be patient because they'll get their rights eventually.Not really. Completely different situations.

Carbonek_0051
06-02-12, 17:47
Not really. Completely different situations.

Not really. I agree with EF.

Cochrane
06-02-12, 17:47
Not really. Completely different situations.

I agree that the situations are different (although I wouldn't say "completely"), but the argument is the same: "Don't annoy the majority by demanding equal rights. be happy for every crumb you get" (slightly exaggerated). And this argument is just as flawed now as it was then.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 17:54
Not really. I agree with EF.Look at what blacks faced in 60s. Hardly comparable to what gays are facing now. I'm not saying everything's fine and dandy, but I think people need to get some perspective.

Carbonek_0051
06-02-12, 17:55
Look at what blacks faced in 60s. Hardly comparable to what gays are facing now. I'm not saying everything's fine and dandy, but I think people need to get some perspective.

Your face needs some perspective. It's not exactly the same situation, but it is somewhat comparable.

remote91
06-02-12, 17:58
Hey girls.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyzaizfUGC1r50fgq.gif

moodydog
06-02-12, 18:03
We have a perfectly good LGBT for support, and to discuss homosexuality.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 18:27
Your face needs some perspective. It's not exactly the same situation, but it is somewhat comparable.Really don't see the need for that. Also, why white out the relevant part of your post? This is the debate section, not GC.

Anyway, they are of course comparable but I don't think the comparisons between what Alpharaider said and what people were saying about the civil rights movement in the 60s aren't really fair.

Changeling
06-02-12, 18:56
^ So they aren't completely different then.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 18:59
^ So they aren't completely different then.Well they kind of are.

Changeling
06-02-12, 19:00
I don't think you can have comparable and completely different in the same sentence.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 19:28
I don't think you can have comparable and completely different in the same sentence.Well what I mean is that I can see why people would compare them but my own opinion is that they're completely different.

larafan25
06-02-12, 19:35
Minorities fighting for rights...there's a similarity.

Carbonek_0051
06-02-12, 19:37
Really don't see the need for that. Also, why white out the relevant part of your post? This is the debate section, not GC.
I'm sorry Dictator Tony, I won't do it again.
Minorities fighting for rights...there's a similarity.

Pretty much.

larafan25
06-02-12, 19:39
Pretty much.

Of course there were a lot of harmful things done including slavery, but bad things are done to gays in other countries, so I guess it depends where you go.

This reminds me of something I learned about Christians being burned at the stake, it's kind of eye opening regardless of the perspective, how ...we've sort of all been there in some way.

:/

amiro1989
06-02-12, 20:20
Minorities fighting for rights...there's a similarity.

Minority, like we say here... "C'est encore drôle" (It's still funny!)

I mean, how many gays/lesbians/bisexuals are still closeted in their countries because of laws, or fear of being out there, for personal reasons, or just to be able to survive in their current environment?... I wouldn't even be surprised if 50% of the worldwide population had gay/bisexual/lesbian tendencies... We're just so many out there... but that will change with time :mis: !

We will overthrow you straight people MUHAHAHAAHAHHAHA! :p jk

Rare are people that are completely straight or gay/lesbian. Most of us are spread somewhere in the Kinsey scale, between the 2nd and 5th "level".

@Larafan25 It wasn't necessarily targeted towards your post, just this idea of a "minority".

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 20:31
Minority, like we say here... "C'est encore drôle" (It's still funny!)

I mean, how many gays/lesbians/bisexuals are still closeted in their countries because of laws, or fear of being out there, for personal reasons, or just to be able to survive in their current environment?... I wouldn't even be surprised if 50% of the worldwide population had gay/bisexual/lesbian tendencies... We're just so many out there... but that will change with time :mis: !

We will overthrow you straight people MUHAHAHAAHAHHAHA! :p jk

Rare are people that are completely straight or gay/lesbian. Most of us are spread somewhere in the Kinsey scale, between the 2nd and 5th "level".Seriously doubt it. Just because there are a lot of gays/bis on TRF doesn't mean that applies to the real world.

Apathetic
06-02-12, 20:33
Why is this always such a hot topic for this forum?

larafan25
06-02-12, 20:43
Minority, like we say here... "C'est encore drôle" (It's still funny!)

I mean, how many gays/lesbians/bisexuals are still closeted in their countries because of laws, or fear of being out there, for personal reasons, or just to be able to survive in their current environment?... I wouldn't even be surprised if 50% of the worldwide population had gay/bisexual/lesbian tendencies... We're just so many out there... but that will change with time :mis: !

We will overthrow you straight people MUHAHAHAAHAHHAHA! :p jk

Rare are people that are completely straight or gay/lesbian. Most of us are spread somewhere in the Kinsey scale, between the 2nd and 5th "level".

@Larafan25 It wasn't necessarily targeted towards your post, just this idea of a "minority".

I've always thought there were more homosexuals than numbers tell us....way more. :pi:

Why is this always such a hot topic for this forum?

Because I love homosexuality.

amiro1989
06-02-12, 20:52
Seriously doubt it. Just because there are a lot of gays/bis on TRF doesn't mean that applies to the real world.

Well, thank you for pointing that out to me... You know, I have to go out to go to work, and to hang out with my friends, and just live my everyday life... So, in case you didn't know, I live in the real world too...

I never said it had anything to do with the gayness of this particular forum. Gays are everywhere. Lesbians are everywhere. Bisexuals are everywhere. And there's more than you can think of... Everyday, more and more LGB are coming out.

Draco
06-02-12, 21:17
I agree that the situations are different (although I wouldn't say "completely"), but the argument is the same: "Don't annoy the majority by demanding equal rights. be happy for every crumb you get" (slightly exaggerated). And this argument is just as flawed now as it was then.

That's the rub... marriage isn't a right... and it is certainly not something any level of government should be involved with. So the entire gay marriage issue as far as I'm concerned is really just a nonissue.

Apathetic
06-02-12, 21:19
That's the rub... marriage isn't a right... and it is certainly not something any level of government should be involved with. So the entire gay marriage issue as far as I'm concerned is really just a nonissue.

Can you elaborate on this 'non-issue' concept?

Draco
06-02-12, 21:22
How would marriage be an issue for LGBTs if it was 100% religious?

Apathetic
06-02-12, 21:26
How would marriage be an issue for LGBTs if it was 100% religious?

I don't understand? LGBT people can be religious.

Dennis's Mom
06-02-12, 21:49
That's the rub... marriage isn't a right... and it is certainly not something any level of government should be involved with. So the entire gay marriage issue as far as I'm concerned is really just a nonissue.

So you're for stripping any and all automatic civil and financial privileges currently conferred by marriage?

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 21:50
Well, thank you for pointing that out to me... You know, I have to go out to go to work, and to hang out with my friends, and just live my everyday life... So, in case you didn't know, I live in the real world too...

I never said it had anything to do with the gayness of this particular forum. Gays are everywhere. Lesbians are everywhere. Bisexuals are everywhere. And there's more than you can think of... Everyday, more and more LGB are coming out.Given that you live in the real world you should also know that most people are straight. It doesn't really matter of course, but it's a fact. To say that 50% of the world is gay/bi is quite a claim. Also, most people are only interested in one sex. The Kinsey scale is a load of rubbish.

toxicraider
06-02-12, 21:55
Amiro; Actually, Kinsey's surveys showed that 46% of people had done both homosexual and heterosexual activities (or had slight feelings) at some point in their life, which isn't the same as 50% being bi/gay, which I definitely don't believe. The real figure in terms of orientation from surveys is 5-10% max.

Nenya awakens
06-02-12, 21:59
I have quite a few straight male friends, and after speaking to them all at various times about it most of them have said they've thought about it once or twice. I don't believe everyone is bisexual but I do believe most people have been or will be curious at some stage. I don't believe anyone is 100% straight or 100% Gay all of the time.

Greenapple968
06-02-12, 22:10
I have quite a few straight male friends, and after speaking to them all at various times about it most of them have said they've thought about it once or twice. I don't believe everyone is bisexual but I do believe most people have been or will be curious at some stage. I don't believe anyone is 100% straight or 100% Gay all of the time.

Probably the most sensible thing anyone in this thread has said so far. I've got friends who've doubted their hetrosexuality and I did when I was about 13-16. Fortunetly my hetrosexuality came out on top.

Weemanply109
06-02-12, 22:11
Yea, I remember dem good ole times of confusion. Not good. :o

Alpharaider47
06-02-12, 22:42
So you're for stripping any and all automatic civil and financial privileges currently conferred by marriage?

If they were separated, this wouldn't be an issue.

Snazabaz
06-02-12, 22:44
Probably the most sensible thing anyone in this thread has said so far. I've got friends who've doubted their hetrosexuality and I did when I was about 13-16. Fortunetly my hetrosexuality came out on top.

Fortunately?

benjamin_2010
06-02-12, 22:45
Not really. Completely different situations. Well they kind of are.

I don't think you can have comparable and completely different in the same sentence.

Well what I mean is that I can see why people would compare them but my own opinion is that they're completely different.

Tony you need to like take a step back and look at what you say. You keep contradicting yourself, it's like do you even know what you think?

That's the rub... marriage isn't a right... and it is certainly not something any level of government should be involved with. So the entire gay marriage issue as far as I'm concerned is really just a nonissue.

But the government is certainly involved with marriage, so therefore what should be a non-biased government should provide the same right for all of it's citizens.

I don't understand? LGBT people can be religious.

Yeah, although I am not, I feel bad for gay people of faith who don't have the option. But so many of each given faith claim that it is against said faith for gay people to marry anyway. I'm glad I don't get into that stuff, so confusing!

Given that you live in the real world you should also know that most people are straight. It doesn't really matter of course, but it's a fact. To say that 50% of the world is gay/bi is quite a claim. Also, most people are only interested in one sex. The Kinsey scale is a load of rubbish.

I disagree. I think Kinsey was probably a lot more educated than you, and quite a bit more open minded. If you go into his research without any preconceived notions, you would find yourself in a totally different mindset. But you wouldn't. You look at it closed off, as an other. You don't want to believe his research, so you don't participate in it.

Why are you so oppressive anyway, and why do you spend so much of your time talking about gay stuff and being so negative? Seriously, what is your problem? Let's take some rights from you, make you feel uncomfortable and unsafe in society, leave you especially prone to bigoted remarks and bullying, then we'll see how different this movement is from the black civil rights movement was in the 60s. Gay people die and are bullied every day because of their tormentors, don't you watch the news? Hello? Don't you have a single clue? Get your head out of the sand and start "living in the real world" because this **** is real, and people are being seriously hurt because of it.

Apathetic
06-02-12, 22:51
Probably the most sensible thing anyone in this thread has said so far. I've got friends who've doubted their hetrosexuality and I did when I was about 13-16. Fortunetly my hetrosexuality came out on top.

You can't even spell, let alone make an educated statement. You're quite frankly, what I call, an idiot.

Archetype
06-02-12, 22:53
You can't even spell, let alone make an educated statement. You're quite frankly, what I call, an idiot.

Well aren't you lovely.

Greenapple968
06-02-12, 22:58
Fortunately?

I don't want to be gay.

You can't even spell, let alone make an educated statement. You're quite frankly, what I call, an idiot.

:vlol: Bless.

To be honest I couldn't care less what you think. If you want to embarress yourself by talking nonsense to me then by all means continue.

Greenapple968
06-02-12, 22:59
Well aren't you lovely.

He's not worth it. Don't lower yourself to his sad little level.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 23:07
Tony you need to like take a step back and look at what you say. You keep contradicting yourself, it's like do you even know what you think?Not really. I think they're two completely different situations but at the same time I can understand why people would make comparisons.

I disagree. I think Kinsey was probably a lot more educated than you, and quite a bit more open minded. If you go into his research without any preconceived notions, you would find yourself in a totally different mindset. But you wouldn't. You look at it closed off, as an other. You don't want to believe his research, so you don't participate in it.Is Kinsey more educated than myself? Most definitely. I don't really know why you brought that up though because I never said Kinsey was stupid, I just think the Kinsey scale is rubbish.

How do you know how I looked at his research? Why are you making these kind of assumptions?

Why are you so oppressive anyway, and why do you spend so much of your time talking about gay stuff and being so negative? Seriously, what is your problem?Err, how am I oppressive, and where have I been negative about gay stuff? :confused:

Let's take some rights from you, make you feel uncomfortable and unsafe in society, leave you especially prone to bigoted remarks and bullying, then we'll see how different this movement is from the black civil rights movement was in the 60s. Gay people die and are bullied every day because of their tormentors, don't you watch the news? Hello? Don't you have a single clue? Get your head out of the sand and start "living in the real world" because this **** is real, and people are being seriously hurt because of it.What's your point here? I never denied that there was discrimination against gays.

Snazabaz
06-02-12, 23:18
I don't want to be gay.



That's fine, but the way you worded it just comes across as a bit offensive. I'm not having a go, just saying it could have been worded better

Cochrane
06-02-12, 23:23
That's the rub... marriage isn't a right... and it is certainly not something any level of government should be involved with. So the entire gay marriage issue as far as I'm concerned is really just a nonissue.
No, marriage is a right. It's government-issued, much like driver's licenses (although hopefully a bit more romantic than that). People are entitled to get a driver's license if they meet the criteria, and while some criteria (driver's test) are obviously legal, the government can't just impose them without a really good reason. As long as the government is involved, everyone has a right to equal treatment by the government.

If you want to abolish government involvement in marriage, sure, go ahead and campaign for that. But don't pretend that this was already the case.

How would marriage be an issue for LGBTs if it was 100% religious?
It is not 100% religious. Looking at the history of the anglo-saxon common law, one can arguably say that in the US and the UK, it never was 100% religious.

amiro1989
06-02-12, 23:24
Amiro; Actually, Kinsey's surveys showed that 46% of people had done both homosexual and heterosexual activities (or had slight feelings) at some point in their life, which isn't the same as 50% being bi/gay, which I definitely don't believe. The real figure in terms of orientation from surveys is 5-10% max.

Yes, but today, there has been a change in how gays have been perceived by society (when I say "gay" I'm just talking about the entire community, maybe not transgenders as they just seem to be a more complex case, sad but true)...

If our society was less obliged to brainwash kids with thinking that heterosexual couples are the "good" way to go (not as bad in MTL it's as gay as Ru Paul, here, but it's still hell in a whole lot of countries ), I'm sure you'd see that percentage going a tad more up... ;)

Like a lot.

I can't wait to see that change, when gays will finally be recognized and respected by everyone out there, and when parents will raise their children in a way that they can become who they are supposed to be.

@ Mad Tony

- First, let me tell you something Mad Tony, if you think I don't live in the real world, I'd beg of you to live in my house, where I have to lie about my identity to protect my life. You'll see how real life is, when you fear about your own life. How I don't sleep sometimes at night, because I'm just afraid of what's going to happen. How I sometimes feel so nervous about telling my parents about how I want to make music, because I know they'd associate that to homosexuality. How I can't even like my parents, because of who I am. I can't even talk to them about anything. Don't you think I feel like utter **** sometimes, for just being WHO I AM! Let me tell you that shiz do get real in my world, and pretty damn fast.

I cannot believe that.

@Benjamin_2010

Word. Exactly what I had in mind. I couldn't say it better.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 23:28
- First, let me tell you something Mad Tony, if you think I don't live in the real world, I'd beg of you to live in my house, where I have to lie about my identity to protect my life. You'll see how real life is, when you fear about your own life. How I don't sleep sometimes at night, because I'm just afraid of what's going to happen. How I sometimes feel so nervous about telling my parents about how I want to make music, because I know they'd associate that to homosexuality. How I can't even like my parents, because of who I am. I can't even talk to them about anything. Don't you think I feel like utter **** sometimes, for just being WHO I AM! Let me tell you that shiz do get real in my world, and pretty damn fast.

I cannot believe that. I never actually said you didn't live in the real world though. :confused:

The only thing you said that I'm contesting is your comment about 50% of the world being gay/bi. That's it. I don't know why you're getting so defensive.

Apathetic
06-02-12, 23:29
I never actually said you didn't live in the real world though. :confused:

The only thing you said that I'm contesting is your comment about 50% of the world being gay/bi. That's it. I don't know why you're getting so defensive.

Do you really think he was 100% serious about it? Come on.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 23:30
Do you really think he was 100% serious about it? Come on.Sorry, I can't read minds.

Apathetic
06-02-12, 23:30
Sorry, I can't read minds.

Common sense would suffice.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 23:32
He gave no indication in his post that it wasn't a serious comment so common sense doesn't really come into play here.

Greenapple968
06-02-12, 23:32
That's fine, but the way you worded it just comes across as a bit offensive. I'm not having a go, just saying it could have been worded better

My apologies. I'll keep that in mind.

amiro1989
06-02-12, 23:36
I never actually said you didn't live in the real world though. :confused:

The only thing you said that I'm contesting is your comment about 50% of the world being gay/bi. That's it. I don't know why you're getting so defensive.

Oh please, play with words as much as you want!

I'm done with you.

Take that as my "Please never answer to me again", without me having to phrase it in those exact same words.

@Apathetic

*plays heavenly GAY music*

The main idea of my post is that there's a lot more than this mere 10%.

Apathetic
06-02-12, 23:40
@Apathetic

*plays heavenly GAY music*

The main idea of my post is that there's a lot more than this mere 10%.

What?

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 23:40
Oh please, play with words as much as you want!

I'm done with you.

Take that as my "Please never answer to me again", without me having to phrase it in those exact same words.What's your problem? How did I offend you?

amiro1989
06-02-12, 23:44
What?

:vlol:

I just meant that you understood that I was exaggerating it.

I just hate when people start to say: "Oh look at them, they are so few of them, we have to accept them how they are, cuz it's not they're fault, they're so cute".... *facepalm*

It's true. It's not our fault. It's true you gotta accept us, but why the hell people are so inclined into thinking that gays are "wrong" - missing a better word here - in being gays. It's just how it goes, so why put so much thought into it, gosh. Well, I know why, but, I guess you know what I mean....

Weemanply109
06-02-12, 23:44
Ok, Amiro. What are you talking about? Really? You need to calm down a bit, Tony wasn't meaning offence.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 23:45
It's true. It's not our fault. It's true you gotta accept us, but why the hell people are so inclined into thinking that gays are "wrong" - missing a better word here - in being gays. It's just how it goes, so why put so much thought into it, gosh.Who in this thread has been saying that though? :confused:

Weemanply109
06-02-12, 23:45
^ Exactly, he's taking it out of context and misunderstanding your points. No offence, but it looks like he's confusing himself atm.

larafan25
06-02-12, 23:48
He's missing a word which would be better than "wrong" and he's not necessarily expressing that feeling directly to any specific person hence the use of the word "people".

But there is an air of " not helping le gays" in some of Mad Tony's posts (maybe not specifically in this thread).

Not that it means anything other than the fact that he maybe...thinks other people overestimate the whole gay scene, or maybe he himself underestimates it.

Mad Tony
06-02-12, 23:49
But there is an air of " not helping le gays" in some of Mad Tony's posts (maybe not specifically in this thread).Care to give some examples?

larafan25
06-02-12, 23:54
Care to give some examples?

Well, when I initially stumbled upon this thread I was surprised to find it was not a new thread but a resurrected thread and so was met with the fact that you're next post wouldn't be "why is TRF so obsessed with homosexuality, put it in one thread, etc...".

Whether most people around me are overestimating the influence or history of the homosexual....campaign (lack of any good word) or whether you are underestimating it - I just don't really know. :/

But I do get a vibe of it being very unimportant to you (which I don't suppose is an issue) or it seems you push it to the side, or at least try to make it clear that you push it to the side in comparison to other subjects of similar content.

amiro1989
06-02-12, 23:56
He's missing a word which would be better than "wrong" and he's not necessarily expressing that feeling directly to any specific person hence the use of the word "people".

But there is an air of " not helping le gays" in some of Mad Tony's posts (maybe not specifically in this thread).

Not that it means anything other than the fact that he maybe...thinks other people overestimate the whole gay scene, or maybe he himself underestimates it.

My thoughts exactly.

I hate when people in general, underestimate gays, and think that we're living in a "straight" world, when in fact, we're just living in a world.

Well, the whole idea of debatting homosexuality, and its place in society is pretty stupid, in general, IMO, but well you know... I don't blame Mad Tony for that, though.

I blame him for making it seem like this world is straight, and these poor gays have to fit in ours.

Uzi master
06-02-12, 23:57
your the only one saying that, I don't see how stating the fact there are more people whom are heterosexual than homosexual led you to the conclusion that was what he was on about.

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 00:00
My thoughts exactly.

I hate when people in general, underestimate gays, and think that we're living in a "straight" world, when in fact, we're just living in a world.

Well, the whole idea of debatting homosexuality, and its place in society is pretty stupid, in general, but well you know...Could you please explain how I offended you? You implied that I thought homosexuality was wrong but I never said anything like that.

I blame him for making it seem like this world is straight - at least, that's how it sounds like because you don't have to use those exact words to mean it like that -, and these poor gays have to fit in ours.I never said the world was straight. All I did was contest your statement that the half of the world is bi/gay.

Well, when I initially stumbled upon this thread I was surprised to find it was not a new thread but a resurrected thread and so was met with the fact that you're next post wouldn't be "why is TRF so obsessed with homosexuality, put it in one thread, etc...".Being annoyed with the number of threads concerning homosexuality on this forum doesn't mean I think it's unimportant. I just don't see why sexuality is such a big issue on here.

But I do get a vibe of it being very unimportant to you (which I don't suppose is an issue) or it seems you push it to the side, or at least try to make it clear that you push it to the side in comparison to other subjects of similar content.Examples?

larafan25
07-02-12, 00:00
My thoughts exactly.

I hate when people in general, underestimate gays, and think that we're living in a "straight" world, when in fact, we're just living in a world.

Well, the whole idea of debatting homosexuality, and its place in society is pretty stupid, in general, but well you know...

your the only one saying that, I don't see how stating the fact there are more people whom are heterosexual than homosexual led you to the conclusion that was what he was on about.

Maybe he doesn't mean the literal amount of gay people or the prominence of their existence, but more so the attitude towards how much or little there may be. So there should still be more care, and people shouldn't suddenly be the minority just because they are the minor group, they should still be seen as an important part of the bigger picture/ society/ human race/ whatever.

Maybe, IDK.

Could you please explain how I offended you? You implied that I thought homosexuality was wrong but I never said anything like that.

Being annoyed with the number of threads concerning homosexuality on this forum doesn't mean I think it's unimportant. I just don't see why sexuality is such a big issue on here.

Examples?

No, no examples. I'm not trying to prove anything, and the idea of presenting you with your own posts/ opinions telling you what you've said or implied would just be weird.

TRLegendLuver
07-02-12, 00:01
Everyone just needs to calm down. Seriously, you're arguing with people you will most likely never, ever meet and getting your feathers all bunched up with bits of pride mixed in. No one in this thread has said, "gays are wrong, "gays are bad" and no one, in all honesty, has been opposed to them, not truly at least.

Breathe, think, and relax. Name calling and becoming all rude over something that you may be confused over is not worth it.

amiro1989
07-02-12, 00:02
@LARAFAN25
WOULD YOU MARRY ME. YESS ALL THE WAY.

@LegendLuvrr

It'll probably never end, indeed. I think I'm just gonna stop posting about it.

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 00:04
No, no examples. I'm not trying to prove anything, and the idea of presenting you with your own posts/ opinions telling you what you've said or implied would just be weird.If you don't have any examples don't make such claims then. It's effectively slander.

larafan25
07-02-12, 00:06
Wait, is that directed to me?

@LARAFAN25
WOULD YOU MARRY ME. YESS ALL THE WAY.

@LegendLuvrr

Is kinda right, those things would never finish.

elohel.

If you don't have any examples don't make such claims then. It's effectively slander.

Hey, I just said I get the vibe. And I don't even know what slander is.

TRLegendLuver
07-02-12, 00:08
@Larafan25: Slander: The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

@LegendLuvrr

It'll probably never end, indeed. I think I'm just gonna stop posting about it.

It can end if you want to end or at least make the effort for it to. :tmb:

amiro1989
07-02-12, 00:09
elohel.



Hey, I just said I get the vibe. And I don't even know what slander is.

:vlol:

Honestly, not to make any drama, but I always felt that too, and I'm sure we're not the only ones. Now I promise, on everyone that I love, I will refrain from posting in that thread. Good night, good day, or anything "good" your way.

larafan25
07-02-12, 00:10
@Larafan25: Slander: The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.



It can end if you want to end or at least make the effort for it to. :tmb:

Oh, I've done that tons of times.

TRLegendLuver
07-02-12, 00:12
Oh, I've done that tons of times.

I bet you're extremely popular with people then. :pi:

larafan25
07-02-12, 00:13
I bet you're extremely popular with people then. :pi:

lol no. :pi:

I don't do it purposely to damage a reputation, and it never feels that way to me.

There are just things which...seem a certain way.

However that being said, if I did actually provide some evidence to support my claim, then it would simply be that person ruining their own reputation. :/

TRLegendLuver
07-02-12, 00:20
lol no. :pi:

I don't do it purposely to damage a reputation, and it never feels that way to me.

There are just things which...seem a certain way.

However that being said, if I did actually provide some evidence to support my claim, then it would simply be that person ruining their own reputation. :/

You will make lots of enemies that way, either on the internet or in person as well. The best thing (if you honestly care about doing the right thing and not "gossiping" because that can result to slander, obviously), make sure you have sufficient evidence to further your claim. If you have a "vibe", or a "feeling" or a "premonition", that is not evidence but rather a personal opinion and can in no way reflect on the individual you are so claiming to understand and "know".

Romantics Inc.
07-02-12, 00:23
I'm a homosexual.

benjamin_2010
07-02-12, 00:23
Is Kinsey more educated than myself? Most definitely. I don't really know why you brought that up though because I never said Kinsey was stupid,
I just think the Kinsey scale is rubbish. How do you know how I looked at his research? Why are you making these kind of assumptions?

You said you think the scale is rubbish, so this implies that you have spent some time thinking about it and have looked at his research/work. Otherwise, you know nothing about the scale and shouldn't really comment on it.

This is what I'm talking about how you just don't make sense in what you're saying. You contradict yourself with almost every point.


-But there is an air of "not helping le gays" in some of Mad Tony's posts (maybe not specifically in this thread).

-Hey, I just said I get the vibe. And I don't even know what slander is.

Err, how am I oppressive, and where have I been negative about gay stuff? :confused:

Apparently I am not the only one who is getting this vibe. You just counter every statement with something that opposes it, there is a sense of oppressiveness and "anti-fillintheblank" from what you say that is unsettling. Also, you seemingly beat around the bush of the major points brought up against whatever you have said. You just like to turn things around so that they aren't on you I guess.

larafan25
07-02-12, 00:23
You will make lots of enemies that way, either on the internet or in person as well. The best thing (if you honestly care about doing the right thing and not "gossiping" because that can result to slander, obviously), make sure you have sufficient evidence to further your claim. If you have a "vibe", or a "feeling" or a "premonition", that is not evidence but rather a personal opinion and can in no way reflect on the individual you are so claiming to understand and "know".

Oh, I don't (try not to and really don't that much if at all) gossip in real life, people come to me with these stories about other people, or will just say "this bitch dresses like a whore" and I'm just like...."okay". I try not to reply.

But I think there are times when people say things, and their words accumulate to a certain meaning, sometimes the thought is accurate and other times it's not.

/ offtopic.

Paddy
07-02-12, 00:57
I'm sorry Dictator Tony, I won't do it again.




:vlol:

Draco
07-02-12, 02:14
I don't understand? LGBT people can be religious.

That isn't what I'm talking about.

So you're for stripping any and all automatic civil and financial privileges currently conferred by marriage?

Yes, marriage should have no bearing on legal rights. If you want your marriage to have special rights, then get a civil union.

But the government is certainly involved with marriage, so therefore what should be a non-biased government should provide the same right for all of it's citizens.

Indeed it should, but technically speaking a marriage being defined as between a man and a woman has historical precedence and is only discriminatory because of the legal attachments. If it weren't for those legal attachments, the issue would not exist at all in the political landscape.

No, marriage is a right. It's government-issued, much like driver's licenses (although hopefully a bit more romantic than that). People are entitled to get a driver's license if they meet the criteria, and while some criteria (driver's test) are obviously legal, the government can't just impose them without a really good reason. As long as the government is involved, everyone has a right to equal treatment by the government.

If you want to abolish government involvement in marriage, sure, go ahead and campaign for that. But don't pretend that this was already the case.

Pretend?

It is not 100% religious. Looking at the history of the anglo-saxon common law, one can arguably say that in the US and the UK, it never was 100% religious.

What does it matter though? The only reason the homosexual community evens cares about it is for the legal aspects which really don't have anything to do with the religious aspects of it.

For the sake of the discussion, what are the legal aspects of marriage?

Here are some from http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/marriage-rights-benefits-30190.html :


Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

Catracoth
07-02-12, 03:10
For all those who argue that legalizing gay marriage violates the "sanctity" of marriage:

sanc·ti·ty/ˈsaNG(k)titē/
Noun:
The state or quality of being holy, sacred, or saintly.

sa·cred/ˈsākrid/
Adjective:
Connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration: "sacred rites".

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of "religion."
- First Amendment of the United States Constitution

Your argument is invalid.

Admles
07-02-12, 06:26
It is not 100% religious. Looking at the history of the anglo-saxon common law, one can arguably say that in the US and the UK, it never was 100% religious.

That is true, marriage pre-dates christianity after all

Stevo505
07-02-12, 06:37
For all those who argue that legalizing gay marriage violates the "sanctity" of marriage:

sanc·ti·ty/ˈsaNG(k)titē/
Noun:
The state or quality of being holy, sacred, or saintly.

sa·cred/ˈsākrid/
Adjective:
Connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration: "sacred rites".

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of "religion."
- First Amendment of the United States Constitution

Your argument is invalid.

And yours is a straw man's argument... just because some people argue that marriage has sanctity does not mean that that is how the government views marriage. You are insinuating that because a group of people argue the "sanctity" of marriage, that the government is protecting a law based on religion. Marriage can be based on EITHER religion or law.

You probably think the government should base marriage on law alone, but you're arguing that the government is associating marriage with religion which there isn't proof for.

Cochrane
07-02-12, 06:45
Pretend?
You keep saying it is a non-issue, but as long as the major changes you propose aren't implemented, it does remain an issue. And changing marriage in that way would definitely get a lot of resistance, if anyone were to actually try it.

What does it matter though? The only reason the homosexual community evens cares about it is for the legal aspects which really don't have anything to do with the religious aspects of it.
Are you sure about that? Is marriage really just religion plus legal rights? I don't think so. There is a huge emotional and social component to having a relationship officially recognized and protected by society, even if one does not care about whether any gods smile down upon it or any specific legal rights.

scoopy_loopy
07-02-12, 07:14
You probably think the government should base marriage on law alone, but you're arguing that the government is associating marriage with religion which there isn't proof for.

Isn't that the #1 reason they attempt to block moves towards gay marriage?

Stevo505
07-02-12, 07:18
Isn't that the #1 reason they attempt to block moves towards gay marriage?

You don't have to be religious to not agree with it.

scoopy_loopy
07-02-12, 07:22
You don't have to be religious to not agree with it.

I understand that, but you didn't really answer my question. =/

Admles
07-02-12, 07:25
Isn't that the #1 reason they attempt to block moves towards gay marriage?
That and homophobia

Carbonek_0051
07-02-12, 07:26
That and homophobia
And they are are jealous gay people are so fabulous.

Stevo505
07-02-12, 07:27
I understand that, but you didn't really answer my question. =/

Are you talking about the government? Or just the general anti-gay marriage group?

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 08:47
You said you think the scale is rubbish, so this implies that you have spent some time thinking about it and have looked at his research/work. Otherwise, you know nothing about the scale and shouldn't really comment on it.

This is what I'm talking about how you just don't make sense in what you're saying. You contradict yourself with almost every point.Yes I have looked and thought about it. I haven't spent weeks researching it mind you, but then again I doubt you have either.

I haven't contradicted myself at all.

Apparently I am not the only one who is getting this vibe. You just counter every statement with something that opposes it, there is a sense of oppressiveness and "anti-fillintheblank" from what you say that is unsettling. Also, you seemingly beat around the bush of the major points brought up against whatever you have said. You just like to turn things around so that they aren't on you I guess.All I did was contest amiro's statement that half of the world is gay/bi. That wasn't because I think homosexuality/bisexuality is wrong (I have NOT said that once in this thread), it was because what he said just wasn't true and I'll readily admit I'm a bit pedantic when it comes to facts.

So tell me, how exactly have I been oppressive and negative towards gays? You quote larafan but he even admitted he couldn't give any examples to back up his claim.

What does "anti-fillintheblank" even mean anyway?

Dennis's Mom
07-02-12, 11:52
Well, I myself question the contention that half the world is bi. I do think one's perception has much to do with whom one comes into contact with.

However, let's move the discussion away from one person's impression of one other member's posts and get back on topic. . . .

Legend 4ever
07-02-12, 14:02
I do think that far more people are bi/gay than we are led to believe. I mean, I once read 1-3%, which definitely can't be true. More like 10%. There are many gay/bi people who are not out, deny their sexuality and won't ever be out because they would rather be accepted and considered "normal" by society.

Weemanply109
07-02-12, 16:33
I do think that far more people are bi/gay than we are led to believe. I mean, I once read 1-3%, which definitely can't be true. More like 10%. There are many gay/bi people who are not out, deny their sexuality and won't ever be out because they would rather be accepted and considered "normal" by society.

This! :tmb:

MiCkiZ88
07-02-12, 16:46
My religion teacher once said to me (he's open minded), if all the gay/bisexual people who are in the closet were to turn blue at church, you'd all be shocked. I don't think it's 50% but it certainly is more than 3% A lot of people are just denying their feelings and follow the heterosexual life because they do not want to stand out or be judged. I almost followed that myself.

Nenya awakens
07-02-12, 17:12
My religion teacher once said to me (he's open minded), if all the gay/bisexual people who are in the closet were to turn blue at church, you'd all be shocked. I don't think it's 50% but it certainly is more than 3% A lot of people are just denying their feelings and follow the heterosexual life because they do not want to stand out or be judged. I almost followed that myself.

:tmb:

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 17:38
I do think that far more people are bi/gay than we are led to believe. I mean, I once read 1-3%, which definitely can't be true. More like 10%. There are many gay/bi people who are not out, deny their sexuality and won't ever be out because they would rather be accepted and considered "normal" by society.Seems plausible to me. Still doesn't explain why TRF is over 50% gay/bi though! :p

Zebra
07-02-12, 18:04
Seems plausible to me. Still doesn't explain why TRF is over 50% gay/bi though! :p

The only possible explanation for that is that Tomb Raider and Lara Croft are extraordinarily popular with gays.

TRhalloween
07-02-12, 18:09
Seems plausible to me. Still doesn't explain why TRF is over 50% gay/bi though! :p

Well if you put gay and bi together than they would probably outnumber straight.

knightgames
07-02-12, 18:12
Seems plausible to me. Still doesn't explain why TRF is over 50% gay/bi though! :p

Half of the REMAINING members who post are gay. Most people have left TRF because they don't participate in General Chat and there's no news on upcoming TR games. It's a 'safe haven' so to say. It's not indicative of the population and demograpgics of TRF as a whole, but the remaining population of members who participate in TRF.

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 18:38
The only possible explanation for that is that Tomb Raider and Lara Croft are extraordinarily popular with gays.Yeah but why?

I know this is off topic but this little stat has always perplexed me.

Well if you put gay and bi together than they would probably outnumber straight. Are you talking about the entire world? Seriously doubt it. There aren't even that many bisexuals on here anyway.

TRhalloween
07-02-12, 18:39
I meant on this forum. Are we really asking why gay people like stuff?

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 18:57
I meant on this forum. Are we really asking why gay people like stuff?Yeah. :confused:

Zelda master
07-02-12, 19:38
It's easy... Because they're gay!



:p

Nenya awakens
07-02-12, 20:09
Yeah but why?




Lara Croft is a strong powerful woman. That appeals to the homos.

larafan25
07-02-12, 20:14
Lara Croft is a strong powerful woman. That appeals to the homos.

I mean, if their choice in music artists isn't obvious enough too. :p

I'm attracted to Oprah (not that kind of way) and Tyra.

Of course maybe I'm just sexist.

:pi:

Nenya awakens
07-02-12, 20:16
The straight guys want to do her and the gays want to be her. :p

larafan25
07-02-12, 20:20
Exactly. :)

Dark Lugia 2
07-02-12, 20:33
I never believed the idea that most of Lara's fans are sex-obsessed heterosexual male teens is as true as it is or was made out to be. Maybe back in 1996 when there weren't many female leads, but now?

What Nenya said, a lot of gay people appreciate and admire strong and powerful women.

Apathetic
07-02-12, 20:39
What Nenya said, a lot of gay people appreciate and admire strong and powerful women.

Do you have any proof regarding this statement?

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 20:41
Lara Croft is a strong powerful woman. That appeals to the homos.Does it? If so, why?

Regardless, I would've thought most people's reason for playing Tomb Raider is that they're good games.

Greenapple968
07-02-12, 20:48
Lara Croft is a strong powerful woman. That appeals to the homos.

The wonderful people from Yahoo Answers seem to think so.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110809231755AALCbAt

Dark Lugia 2
07-02-12, 20:52
Do you have any proof regarding this statement?

Do I need any? A lot of gay people do admire strong and powerful women. That doesn't mean most or all ofthem do, just a lot.

Nenya awakens
07-02-12, 20:54
Does it? If so, why?

Regardless, I would've thought most people's reason for playing Tomb Raider is that they're good games.

But we're talking about Lara Croft herself, not the Tomb Raider games. I enjoy the games because they are fun games, the fact that the character is female appeals to me even more. Given the choice in a game if there is a female character to chose I will chose it over the male.

I've no idea why a lot of gay people like and identify with strong females, but they do. I'm not speaking to all gay people here, everyone is different, but the majority of gay men I know like and identify with female role models.


Do you have any proof regarding this statement?

Just because you might not do, doesn't mean the majority doesn't. I don't think proof and statistics is needed, ask around.

Ward Dragon
07-02-12, 21:00
I've no idea why a lot of gay people like and identify with strong females, but they do. I'm not speaking to all gay people here, everyone is different, but the majority of gay men I know like and identify with female role models.

I think it might be because strong women stand out and break the usual stereotypes, so they are inspirational :)

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 21:00
But we're talking about Lara Croft herself, not the Tomb Raider games. I enjoy the games because they are fun games, the fact that the character is female appeals to me even more. Given the choice in a game if there is a female character to chose I will chose it over the male.

I've no idea why a lot of gay people like and identify with strong females, but they do. I'm not speaking to all gay people here, everyone is different, but the majority of gay men I know like and identify with female role models.That's probably a factor, but surely the fact that it's a great series is what gets it its fans?

Phlip
07-02-12, 21:04
Does it? If so, why?

Because strong independent women are inspirational... hmm idk. :o But we just do, and that's why Gretel Killeen's my idol.

Nenya awakens
07-02-12, 21:05
That's probably a factor, but surely the fact that it's a great series is what gets it its fans?

Oh yeah, of course. I just mean that I think that the Character being a strong female helps it have a large gay fan base. I've no idea however if this fanbase is just on TRF or in the real world too. I have to admit that out of my gay male friends I am the only one who likes playing games. ( apart from my real life friends I met on TRF however)

Apathetic
07-02-12, 21:21
Just because you might not do, doesn't mean the majority doesn't. I don't think proof and statistics is needed, ask around.

I didn't say I don't, I was just wondering where you were pulling this statement from.

Nenya awakens
07-02-12, 21:23
I didn't say I don't, I was just wondering where you were pulling this statement from.

From my life experience, the people I've met and spoken to.

Larapink
07-02-12, 21:42
I honestly don't have a problem with people who are homosexual, it's their choice. It doesn't bother me, equality matters.

I'm heterosexual, I have always been attracted to guys. :o

patriots88888
07-02-12, 21:57
I think it might be because strong women stand out and break the usual stereotypes, so they are inspirational :)

Yea, exactly. I prefer the female characters in video games and I am neither gay nor bi. I really don't see how one's sexuality plays a part in that. I prefer them for the reasons you identified and their personalities seem more interesting to me (in most cases anyways).

EDIT: After re-reading the above posts (more carefully) I'm thinking my post is going to come across as defensive. Not my intention... I'm only pointing out that not all gay/bi/whatever choose accordingly based on that alone. There are other reasons for that as well.

TRhalloween
07-02-12, 22:13
Yeah. :confused:

People who are gay don't need specific reasons to like things. I don't know about everyone else but not all my interests are tied to my sexuality.

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 22:20
Because strong independent women are inspirational... hmm idk. :o But we just do, and that's why Gretel Killeen's my idol.Dunno about everyone else but I've always found strong independent people inspirational. Their sex doesn't really come into it.

People who are gay don't need specific reasons to like things. I don't know about everyone else but not all my interests are tied to my sexuality.No, I don't believe interests are always tied to sexuality either, but when over half the forum is gay/bi you know there must be some reason behind it.

Cochrane
07-02-12, 22:25
Regardless, I would've thought most people's reason for playing Tomb Raider is that they're good games.

Actually, that part can be debated. Probably better in the specific Tomb Raider forums, but the short version is: Tomb Raider I was innovative. Anything up to Chronicles were very minor updates that were increasingly outdated. AoD was horrible. The new games are mostly Prince of Persia copies. Obviously, not everyone agrees, but sales figures, numbers of awards and scores all show that the majority opinion is that Tomb Raider has gotten rather mediocre.

If Tomb Raider did not have Lara Croft as the main character, I'm sure the series would have died long ago. It was certainly close enough. As for why strong women are so appealing to gays, no idea, but if you look e.g. at Lady Gaga, it can't be denied that there is some correlation there.

Mad Tony
07-02-12, 22:27
Actually, that part can be debated. Probably better in the specific Tomb Raider forums, but the short version is: Tomb Raider I was innovative. Anything up to Chronicles were very minor updates that were increasingly outdated. AoD was horrible. The new games are mostly Prince of Persia copies. Obviously, not everyone agrees, but sales figures, numbers of awards and scores all show that the majority opinion is that Tomb Raider has gotten rather mediocre.

If Tomb Raider did not have Lara Croft as the main character, I'm sure the series would have died long ago. It was certainly close enough. As for why strong women are so appealing to gays, no idea, but if you look e.g. at Lady Gaga, it can't be denied that there is some correlation there.Ok, what I meant by that is that people who play Tomb Raider obviously like it.

The point I'm getting at here is that surely enjoyment of the game is why people are fans of Tomb Raider, not because the lead character is a strong woman?

KC Mraz
07-02-12, 22:31
Seems plausible to me. Still doesn't explain why TRF is over 50% gay/bi though! :p

The Arts & Entertainment section.

patriots88888
07-02-12, 22:31
No, I don't believe interests are always tied to sexuality either, but when over half the forum is gay/bi you know there must be some reason behind it.

Well, as far as TRF goes, perhaps they see this is a forum where tolerance to the LGBT community is the standard here (as it should be). So perhaps the fact that there are many members here who are LGBT has less to do with TR/Lara Croft and more to do with the forum/community atmosphere.

Cochrane
07-02-12, 22:37
Ok, what I meant by that is that people who play Tomb Raider obviously like it.

The point I'm getting at here is that surely enjoyment of the game is why people are fans of Tomb Raider, not because the lead character is a strong woman?

You're right. My point is: Why do people enjoy Tomb Raider? It's not like there are too few other games to choose from, and most of them have better marketing budgets these days. Is it the unique gameplay? In the classics, it was widely criticized ages ago already, AoD sucked, and the new games are faithful copies of Prince of Persia. Is it the great story? TR1-5 all had the story "Lara does some adventuring, releases or helps release some ancient evil, has to defeat it". I'm not sure AoD actually had a coherent story, and "Where's my mommy?" certainly does not win any Oscars either.

But nevertheless, people enjoy Tomb Raider enough to buy the games and actually visit this forum. For some, it is the gameplay - the classics may be an acquired taste, but I still think they beat almost all 3D third-person platforming games. Some people here claim they actually like the stories, which I always found weird. Finally, for some, it may simply be a habit. But in the end, I think the character of Lara Croft is a huge part of the entire thing as well, that she is someone who we all want to portray, in a sense.

Ward Dragon
07-02-12, 23:56
Well, as far as TRF goes, perhaps they see this is a forum where tolerance to the LGBT community is the standard here (as it should be). So perhaps the fact that there are many members here who are LGBT has less to do with TR/Lara Croft and more to do with the forum/community atmosphere.

I think that's probably a big part of it. This forum is not judgmental, so people feel more free to come here and post whereas they might not feel welcome in other forums.

knightgames
08-02-12, 04:48
Well, as far as TRF goes, perhaps they see this is a forum where tolerance to the LGBT community is the standard here (as it should be). So perhaps the fact that there are many members here who are LGBT has less to do with TR/Lara Croft and more to do with the forum/community atmosphere.


I thought I said something along those lines about 5 pages ago.

Tombcool
08-02-12, 04:55
Ok, what I do not understand and dislike about what people are saying is that the way some of you are wording things.

For example, one of you asked why gay people love Lara Croft so much...

It's like you are asking as if gay people are whole different species or something...

A person is a person, everyone is unique, we all have different interests and hobbies. There should be no connection between sexuality and personality. Period.

But then again, I am sounding hypocritical because I always ask people why the gay community love Lady GaGa so much...so I don't know... I just wish we stopped connecting things that should not be connected.

Mad Tony
08-02-12, 06:17
Ok, what I do not understand and dislike about what people are saying is that the way some of you are wording things.

For example, one of you asked why gay people love Lara Croft so much...

It's like you are asking as if gay people are whole different species or something...

A person is a person, everyone is unique, we all have different interests and hobbies. There should be no connection between sexuality and personality. Period.

But then again, I am sounding hypocritical because I always ask people why the gay community love Lady GaGa so much...so I don't know... I just wish we stopped connecting things that should not be connected.Nobody's saying it's wrong or should be corrected, it's just a perplexing little stat. :confused: Wanting answers to things doesn't imply there's something wrong.

Why do people get so easily offended on here?

scoopy_loopy
08-02-12, 06:58
^ To be fair, it's a pretty sensitive subject.

erosan
08-02-12, 07:09
The most homophobic people are closet cases ;)

tampi
08-02-12, 08:58
Unfortunately, there are many bigots and ignorants who are considering them as "satanics" or an "offence to human dignity".


This is surprising.
Just want to point out that the only person I've heard to talk in these terms about his sexuality in my life, is a homosexual talking intimately about his own condition.
He was saying these things about him.


EDIT; I should add that he is a person sufficiently educated not to fall into pointless topics.

Draco
08-02-12, 08:58
^ To be fair, it's a pretty sensitive subject.

So what? His question is only offensive to stupid people.

What is it about female heroins in general, and Lara Croft in particular, that gay people are so enamored with as opposed to alpha male types? Generally speaking of course.

My personal take on it is that it is basically the same reason that the average straight guy likes watching Arnold for, they want to emulate one or more of his attributes. But males doing this for a female icon is a little less simple to explain. So what is it about those females that make them more appealing than their male counterparts?

moodydog
08-02-12, 09:11
The truth is, sexuality is a very complex topic, we are only beginning to understand the true workings of the minds. To make bold statements like 50% of the world is homosexual, or even 5-10%, or things like bi's don't really exist is complete utter crap... for now. The truth is, we don't know the truth. People try and pull out facts by doing surveys, and claim they have these statistical answers, but until we know the pinpoint of probability (inside of the human mind) of what makes someone gay or not, whether its genetic, lifestyle or both... then pretty much everything stated is not relevant.

What I can say is, I hate anyone who discriminates against anyone else for their sex, colour, race or sexual orientation. I don't like in your face camp people though, that's something completely different. :ton:


The most homophobic people are closet cases ;)

I have a friend who was very racist, very homophobic very this and that. He had a girlfriend... when he left college, he had a boyfriend. But really doesn't mean anything - Some heterosexual people are also homophobic.

Phlip
08-02-12, 10:07
I honestly don't have a problem with people who are homosexual, it's their choice. It doesn't bother me, equality matters.

I'm heterosexual, I have always been attracted to guys. :o
No it's not.
Dunno about everyone else but I've always found strong independent people inspirational. Their sex doesn't really come into it.
Because as ward Dragon said, they break the stereo-type, which gay men can relate to.

Admles
08-02-12, 11:22
I honestly don't have a problem with people who are homosexual, it's their choice. It doesn't bother me, equality matters.

I'm heterosexual, I have always been attracted to guys. :o

It is not a choice at all

Dennis's Mom
08-02-12, 11:46
Nobody's saying it's wrong or should be corrected, it's just a perplexing little stat. :confused: Wanting answers to things doesn't imply there's something wrong.

Why do people get so easily offended on here?

Personally, I think it's, perhaps not offensive, but irritating to assume that a person's gender or sexuality defines EVERYTHING about them.

"These people" like Lara Croft because they're GAY. They have no thoughts, ideas, preferences or idiosyncrasies that do not spout from their sexual orientation.

People do the same thing to women all the time. Every thought, idea, preference, raison d'etre emits from our ovaries and breasts.

It's entirely possible that "these people" like Tomb Raider because they're people, with all the full range of complexities and nuances that non-"these people" have. It just so happens they're gay, and you know about it because they happened to state it on the forums.

Mad Tony
08-02-12, 11:56
^ To be fair, it's a pretty sensitive subject.I understand that but people are getting offended over nothing. I don't think there's anything wrong with gays or that they're different. I'm only asking because I'm an inquisitive person and like to know the reasons behind things. Little stats like this fascinate me.

Personally, I think it's, perhaps not offensive, but irritating to assume that a person's gender or sexuality defines EVERYTHING about them.

"These people" like Lara Croft because they're GAY. They have no thoughts, ideas, preferences or idiosyncrasies that do not spout from their sexual orientation.

People do the same thing to women all the time. Every thought, idea, preference, raison d'etre emits from our ovaries and breasts.

It's entirely possible that "these people" like Tomb Raider because they're people, with all the full range of complexities and nuances that non-"these people" have. It just so happens they're gay, and you know about it because they happened to state it on the forums.If you'll read my post you'll see that I was actually arguing the opposite. My point was that surely people like Tomb Raider because they like the games and think they're enjoyable? I never once assumed someone's sexuality defines everything about them.

All I was doing was asking why there is such a large number of gay people here, just like how in the past I've wondered why there are hardly any Spanish people here (that I've seen) but loads from Portugal.

Nenya awakens
08-02-12, 12:29
All I was doing was asking why there is such a large number of gay people here, just like how in the past I've wondered why there are hardly any Spanish people here (that I've seen) but loads from Portugal.

And you have been answered. Nobody ever said that the only reason gays like Tomb Raider is because of the Character. Gay people like the game for the same reason that straight people do. it's a bloody amazing game.

patriots88888
08-02-12, 13:29
I thought I said something along those lines about 5 pages ago.

If I had a nickel every time that has happened to me...

Sorry, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. I hadn't looked back that far in the thread to see your post. I only saw that someone was curious as to why there is a significant number of LGBT members of this forum and only wanted to point out that there could be more than one reason for that (any number of reasons actually) that have little to nothing to do with TR/Lara.

larafan25
08-02-12, 14:46
So...say we have two characters...one male and one female, but both have sort of "brutish" qualities.

I may think the girl is the cooler one, why? IDK. :/

But, why would someone else maybe think the guy is the cooler one?

I'm sure it could have some sort of relation to sexuality or the position some people find themselves in, in relation to sexuality.

Tombcool
08-02-12, 16:38
So what? His question is only offensive to stupid people.

What is it about female heroins in general, and Lara Croft in particular, that gay people are so enamored with as opposed to alpha male types? Generally speaking of course.

My personal take on it is that it is basically the same reason that the average straight guy likes watching Arnold for, they want to emulate one or more of his attributes. But males doing this for a female icon is a little less simple to explain. So what is it about those females that make them more appealing than their male counterparts?

I think you are over complicating it.

Why can't we just leave people's interests alone and stop making stupid connections between sexuality and personality?

Like seriously, we all have a right to like what we do without being grouped with certain people.

Don't group things together that don't need to be.

Plus, I think it's stupid that we analyzing something that has no benefit.

I can also basically throw what you said the other way and call you gay for liking Tomb Raider. And that is offensive, just like asking why so many gay people like Tomb Raider.

Those people like Tomb Raider for the same reasons other people do. It's a great game.

Mad Tony
08-02-12, 16:41
I think you are over complicating it.

Why can't we just leave people's interests alone and stop making stupid connections between sexuality and personality?

Like seriously, we all have a right to like what we do without being grouped with certain people.

Don't group things together that don't need to be.

Plus, I think it's stupid that we analyzing something that has no benefit.

I can also basically throw what you said the other way and call you gay for liking Tomb Raider. And that is offensive, just like asking why so many gay people like Tomb Raider.

Those people like Tomb Raider for the same reasons other people do.I never actually asked why so many gay people like Tomb Raider (we don't know this to be the case), I asked why there are so many gay people on TRF.

I wasn't asking because I thought it was their sexuality that drew them to the game, I was merely asking a simple question and you (among others) started making various assumptions.

You're determined to be offended by a completely innocent question.

Tombcool
08-02-12, 16:42
I was not referring to what you said, and originally, I was not offended, I just said I disliked some of the things that were said.

But now, I am offended by what Draco said in regards to TR and homosexuality.

Mad Tony
08-02-12, 16:45
I just said I disliked some of the things that were said.Such as?

Tombcool
08-02-12, 16:47
Why people made the connection between liking TR and homosexuality...

So obviously nothing what you said. :p

knightgames
08-02-12, 17:40
If I had a nickel every time that has happened to me...

Sorry, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. I hadn't looked back that far in the thread to see your post. I only saw that someone was curious as to why there is a significant number of LGBT members of this forum and only wanted to point out that there could be more than one reason for that (any number of reasons actually) that have little to nothing to do with TR/Lara.

No big deal Patriots. I'm just being petulent and wasn't really directing my comment at you specifically.......... even though I quoted you. ;)

I'll send a few nickels your way.....

larafan25
08-02-12, 19:21
I think you are over complicating it.

Why can't we just leave people's interests alone and stop making stupid connections between sexuality and personality?

Like seriously, we all have a right to like what we do without being grouped with certain people.

Don't group things together that don't need to be.

Plus, I think it's stupid that we analyzing something that has no benefit.

I can also basically throw what you said the other way and call you gay for liking Tomb Raider. And that is offensive, just like asking why so many gay people like Tomb Raider.

Those people like Tomb Raider for the same reasons other people do. It's a great game.

I think there can be a connection between specific traits about people and what they like.

jajay119
08-02-12, 19:46
I never actually asked why so many gay people like Tomb Raider (we don't know this to be the case), I asked why there are so many gay people on TRF.

I wasn't asking because I thought it was their sexuality that drew them to the game, I was merely asking a simple question and you (among others) started making various assumptions.

You're determined to be offended by a completely innocent question.

To be honest, as a gay person, I think this is a resonable question. I myself was surprised that so many gay people both like TR and are a member on a TR form as it is a game, that has generally been, sold on the sexuality of it's main character for the majority of its existance. So to see men who do not find women attractive (or women who do) showing their consistant support for this series, given that past, is sociologically interesting.

larafan25
08-02-12, 19:49
To be honest, as a gay person, I think this is a resonable question. I myself was surprised that so many gay people both like TR and are a member on a TR form as it is a game, that has generally been, sold on the sexuality of it's main character for the majority of its existance. So to see men who do not find women attractive (or women who do) showing their consistant support for this series, given that past, is sociologically interesting.

Good point, not to mention the love for the character herself.

Stevo505
09-02-12, 05:53
So before I had talked about my disagreement of gay marriage and how it was because of my religion but.. whoever it was (can't remember) who said that God just wants everyone to be happy and be who they are.. well that does sound right. I actually feel really guilty for being so closed-minded regarding these people, who really are people like everyone else, and thinking that it was right to deny someone happiness based on who they love. It really isn't mine or anyone's place to judge that and tell them they can't have something other "normal" people have. We're all normal, we're all people, and we all just want to live normal lives.

That is a really cheesy post yeah.. but I want to be more open about this thing because things are changing and I have realized how closed-minded it seems. For me it will take some getting used to to see two men or two women together, but really, they deserve the chance to love just like a man and a woman do...

A lot of people where I live think that gay marriage is wrong, and I have sort of taken on that opinion since that is what I'm surrounded by constantly. But I didn't really form my own opinion... I kinda just went with the crowd since I didn't want to be the odd one out or whatever. It sounds like an abrupt change in attitude... well it kind of is, yeah, but I see so many kind people who are gay and it seems wrong to deny them the chance to commit to each other, yet abusive straight people are allowed to marry.

Draco
09-02-12, 06:59
I think you are over complicating it.

No, not really.

Those people like Tomb Raider for the same reasons other people do. It's a great game.

Which still doesn't answer the question, why the disproportionate ratio of gay to straight in the TR fanbase and on TRF in particular? Things don't just happen, there has to be some correlation.

nick styger
09-02-12, 08:31
I reckon most straight people are not as sensitive to the emotional side of life and the need for chatrooms where personal issues can be discussed. Straight men tend towards practical stuff or else they just get bored. (Straight women seem to concentrate on babies and kids)

shebj
09-02-12, 10:15
no idea whether it already has been said or not ; but washington made marriage for gay people legal

TippingWater
09-02-12, 10:20
no idea whether it already has been said or not ; but washington made marriage for gay people legal
http://www.chicagotribune.com/site/newspaper/news/sc-nw-washington-gay-0209-20120209,0,4827764.story

Yay ! :D

tampi
09-02-12, 10:34
So before I had talked about my disagreement of gay marriage and how it was because of my religion but.. whoever it was (can't remember) who said that God just wants everyone to be happy and be who they are.. well that does sound right. I actually feel really guilty for being so closed-minded regarding these people, who really are people like everyone else, and thinking that it was right to deny someone happiness based on who they love. It really isn't mine or anyone's place to judge that and tell them they can't have something other "normal" people have. We're all normal, we're all people, and we all just want to live normal lives.

That is a really cheesy post yeah.. but I want to be more open about this thing because things are changing and I have realized how closed-minded it seems. For me it will take some getting used to to see two men or two women together, but really they deserve the chance to love just like a man and a woman do...

A lot of people where I live think that gay marriage is wrong, and I have sort of taken on that opinion since that is what I'm surrounded by constantly. But I didn't really form my own opinion... I kinda just went with the crowd since I didn't want to be the odd one out or whatever. It sounds like an abrupt change in attitude... well it kind of is, yeah, but I see so many kind people who are gay and it seems wrong to deny them the chance to commit to each other, yet abusive straight people are allowed to marry.


But that's not the case. The point is using the word "marriage" for their unions.
I once made ​a comment about that and I think people misunderstood me.
The fact is not that everyone does what they want in their intimacy or love to anyone the way that everyone wants.
The issue is that to want to use the same word.
There is nothing special, but that word has been used traditionally to refer o a union between man and woman as spiritual union between a woman and a man belief. It is this latter aspect that is at odds with the idea of gay marriage because it detracts the primary sense of the idea of ​marriage.
Thus, it is not legally certify their union, if not it seems they want to infer in the sense that the word marriage carries since ancient times.
If a divorced man and woman want to remarry in church again, they can not (except for some famous cases and with the permission of the church institution). So they have to join through other official channels to witness their union and although it is said they are married and that they are husband and wife, in fact they are not because their marriage is a purely administrative procedure.
That's the issue. The need to find another word and make it normal in its need.
No problem with what everyone feels or does in my case. All would be surprised if we see the real inside of people. Understand me.

Legend 4ever
09-02-12, 10:40
Straight people who get divorced cannot get married in a church again? Huh? Where exactly is that the law?

I do believe that if the gays are given the same rights straight people are, it doesn't matter if it's called marriage because they're fighting for rights, not the name.

tampi
09-02-12, 10:52
Straight people who get divorced cannot get married in a church again? Huh? Where exactly is that the law?


:confused:
You can not marry twice for the church without permission of the Church. That's not a cinema in which you enter and leave when you want.



I do believe that if the gays are given the same rights straight people are, it doesn't matter if it's called marriage because they're fighting for rights, not the name.

Yes, but that's not what it seems in many cases. Often used as a direct attack to the church and its customs. You just have to go over some news about the Pope's travels and see how gay couples swirl around to kissing between them using clothes (customs) typical of the church.
Whenever the attack and confrontation against an institution that can have its beliefs in the same way as many other institutions have them.

Dennis's Mom
09-02-12, 12:00
Which still doesn't answer the question, why the disproportionate ratio of gay to straight in the TR fanbase and on TRF in particular? Things don't just happen, there has to be some correlation.

I think it has more to do with the atmosphere here than with Tomb Raider itself. While they're not as active as this one, I'm a member of two other Tomb Raider Boards and the sexuality of their members is rarely a topic for conversation.

When I was in a drama major in college, gay people were everywhere. At this phase of my life, not so much. I don't think gay people are "drawn" to the theater any more than anything else, except that theater people are generally more open and accepting as a function of the craft, therefore the odds of people revealing and discussing their sexuality are much higher. I would imagine that comfort plays into selecting a career in the theater arts.

Nenya awakens
09-02-12, 12:07
I think it has more to do with the atmosphere here than with Tomb Raider itself. While they're not as active as this one, I'm a member of two other Tomb Raider Boards and the sexuality of their members is rarely a topic for conversation.



I'm on a couple of Resident Evil forums and whilst there is a gay crowd there it's rarely bought up in conversation and there isn't any thread that I've noticed. It's more important to different people. I'm at the the stage of my life where I have been out for about 11 years and it's no longer a big deal, to people who have recently come out or accepted who they are it's going to be a much bigger deal and I think because we have a lot of younger people who are going through that phase in there lives we are going to have continuous threads on this.

MangelinaJolie
09-02-12, 18:56
I don't think this has been posted here yet.

CbmbdWK6338

Truly admirable.

Legend 4ever
09-02-12, 19:49
^ That was a great speech.

Yes, but that's not what it seems in many cases. Often used as a direct attack to the church and its customs. You just have to go over some news about the Pope's travels and see how gay couples swirl around to kissing between them using clothes (customs) typical of the church.
What's used as an attack to the church?
The fact that gay people want to get married? No, I would think that the primary goal is to get the right to marry, just like straight people have it, because being straight does not make you a better person, it's just a circumstance.

:confused: You can not marry twice for the church without permission of the Church. That's not a cinema in which you enter and leave when you want.
That might be true if you're talking about the Catholic church. Otherwise, no, I've known a lot of people who got remarried in a church.

----------------------------------

Also, marriage doesn't have to have anything to do with the church. Many people just have a formal ceremony and it's still called marriage, is it not? Who says gay people would want to go to a church to get married if they got their marriage rights?

TippingWater
09-02-12, 19:54
I don't think this has been posted here yet.

CbmbdWK6338

Truly admirable.

Aw :) . This is truly touching :hug: .

Admles
09-02-12, 20:36
^
Also, marriage doesn't have to have anything to do with the church.

Damn straight. Marriage pre-dates christianity anyway

TombRaiderFan.
09-02-12, 20:41
I don't think this has been posted here yet.

CbmbdWK6338

Truly admirable.

:')