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tlr online
16-02-05, 22:02
The Kyoto accord, which aims to curb the air pollution blamed for global warming, has come into force seven years after it was agreed. The accord requires countries to cut emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. Some 141 countries, accounting for 55% of greenhouse gas emissions, have ratified the treaty, which pledges to cut these emissions by 5.2% by 2012.

But the world's top polluter - the US - has not signed up to the treaty. The US says the changes would be too costly to introduce and that the agreement is flawed. Large developing countries including India, China and Brazil are not required to meet specific targets for now.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40834000/jpg/_40834489_pollution_body_ap.jpg

FULL ARTICLE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4267245.stm)

Mark Garcia
16-02-05, 22:15
Of course they ignored it. They don't win anything with that. How sad. :(

Geck-o-Lizard
16-02-05, 22:16
It's gonna take more than just warnings to make the US government think of the consequences of their greed. Wait til the sea levels are rising and flooding the US's coast, then maybe they'll realise their error (by which time it'll be too late and they'll probably blame it on them damn commies)

laracroft8290
16-02-05, 22:38
Yeah its pretty sad...its scary how many people drive gas guzzling trucks here. I feel all alone in my Honda Civic while on the highway :(

SpArKy
16-02-05, 23:19
Well 141 counrtys it better then none i think. America may join once a new energy source to thrive cars comes out, and is more streamline. Because tis top on there agenda the same with any country, its just a matter of time before it all runs out. Thats a fact.

andromeda_eats
16-02-05, 23:47
Neither did Australia sign up. Its disgusting how selfish that is. :(

Draco
17-02-05, 02:02
Do you have any idea what would have happened if Kyoto had been enforced? Obviously not.

Draco
17-02-05, 02:06
That was more snappy that I meant...sorry.

tlr online
17-02-05, 02:23
Draco. I'd be interested in hearing why you think the U.S. should continue to pollute our planet for the sole benefit of the U.S.

b/w evening. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

andromeda_eats
17-02-05, 02:50
Eric. Do you have any idea what WILL happen if the world doesnt do something about global warming?

Your not being snappy. Dismiss this as ignorant, but I cant see any cause that will out weigh the outcome of a healthier planet, the survival of the human race, a future for our children.

Flipper1987
17-02-05, 03:15
I'm just curious.

Where is all of the outrage against MAJOR POLLUTERS like China, India, and Brazil who would be completely EXEMPT from the Kyoto treaty (as stated above)? If the U.S. did follow this flawed treaty, any environmental gains that would be produced would be offset by developing countries who are free to pollute as much as they want.

And even if the U.S. followed Kyoto, it would be the equivalent of economic suicide.

I AGREE with everyone here that the environment will have to be addressed on a global scale, and in many areas it already is; however, Kyoto is not the only answer. I wish people would stop referring to this protocol as some holy writ. The U.S. is not the only country to have bailed on this treaty.

FLIPPER

[ 17. February 2005, 03:35: Message edited by: Flipper1987 ]

andromeda_eats
17-02-05, 03:21
Hi Flipper. I agree with you. As I said before, I am ashamed my country is exscused. Im not bashing America for not being involved any more then I am my own country.

Olvidarse
17-02-05, 03:51
It's true that it will cause a drop in the economy, especially for America. I doubt that the protocol will work; perhaps when technologies develop we'll be able to solve this problem. I'll be turning over in my grave before anything is solved. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

We passed legislation on a similar topic in MUN last year. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

Andromeda66
17-02-05, 07:24
Originally posted by tlr online:


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40834000/jpg/_40834489_pollution_body_ap.jpg

Oh My God...that looks Terrible!!! :mad:

Aren't the US military services trying to install fully automatic robot soldiers instead of humans? I read something about it somewhere.

Andromeda66
17-02-05, 07:27
Oh...erm..the above question was quite aside from the topic but I was just curious.....in case anyone heard that one...

Olvidarse
17-02-05, 07:41
(Off topic)

We have "bomb-sniffer" robots that detect explosive properties in the surrounding area. But real "Terminator" sort of robots? I don't think so.

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif Sony Qrio? That's as close as you get to top-of-the-line.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Webbings/qrio.jpg

[ 17. February 2005, 07:42: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Andromeda66
18-02-05, 07:12
Well...okay.... not bomb-sniffers real human-like robots...who "dont get hungry, dont forget their orders and dont give a damn if the person next to them just got shot" as one of the spokesperson said...I think thats just awful.....because robots are robots.....I dont think they'll be able to differentiate friend from foe very easily...however sophisticated the technology may be.


PS: What are the dimensions of this "Sony QRIO"?Looks really small....

Geck-o-Lizard
18-02-05, 16:40
Flipper - Kyoto is not the only answer, but it is the first step, and unless it is supported by as many Western countries as possible, nothing will ever be resolved! The climate problem will only be addressed properly and countered if the main offenders who can afford to do something about it(ie. the Western and developed countries) are willing to give up some of the disgustingly selfish luxuries they enjoy to help the rest of the world. For example: using more fuel-efficient cars, saving power around the house, integrating renewable energy sources into power production to replace some of the coal and oil used currently, etc.

[ 18. February 2005, 16:45: Message edited by: Geck-o-Lizard ]

Melonie Tomb Raider
18-02-05, 17:52
Why do other countries like to crtisize the US so much...? :confused:

tlr online
18-02-05, 17:58
IMO the U.S. is a land of hypocrisy, only leading or contributing when it directly benefits the U.S, at the expense of the rest of the world. When I was a nipper, I used to dream of travelling to the U.S. Now I have no intention of ever stepping on American soil and contributing to the American economy while the world's biggest terrorist and polluter is in power.

Anubis_AF
18-02-05, 18:07
LoL Olvidarse, the robot looks cute :D

Flipper1987
18-02-05, 19:22
Originally posted by tlr online:
IMO the U.S. is a land of hypocrisy, only leading or contributing when it directly benefits the U.S, at the expense of the rest of the world. When I was a nipper, I used to dream of travelling to the U.S. Now I have no intention of ever stepping on American soil and contributing to the American economy while the world's biggest terrorist and polluter is in power. Don't you love it when virulent anti-American bigotry rears its ugly head? :rolleyes:

FLIPPER - who needs to be constantly reminded that European countries were always perfect.

[ 18. February 2005, 19:26: Message edited by: Flipper1987 ]

Cato
18-02-05, 19:47
Originally posted by Melonie Tomb Raider:
Why do other countries like to crtisize the US so much...? :confused: Some people are like that. People need scapegoats. I annoys my when people critize a whole nation due to the acts of some. I have looks of American friends and they are in no way crooks. It's sad when people pay more attention to all the bad things and no attention to the good things. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif
I don't hate America, it's just the government I hate.... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

Melonie Tomb Raider
18-02-05, 20:34
I'm so sick of people critisizing my country. You don't live here, so why do you care? And what you fail to realize is that we are in a war. Let's look at the big picture here. Polution can wait, what's more important is settling this war.

Draco
18-02-05, 21:27
Europe is still sore over not being the most important part of the world. Don't mind them.

I applaud this EU thing though, makes them competitive...and healthy competition is a good thing.

Kyoto would not have changed anything, at least anything regarding pollution.

Cato
18-02-05, 21:35
meh, I don't care for any government.

Anubis_AF
18-02-05, 21:35
Originally posted by Draco:
Europe is still sore over not being the most important part of the world. Not true at all.

Neteru
18-02-05, 21:47
Draco:
Europe is still sore over not being the most important part of the world.Oh Draco, I have to thank you. You crack me up so many times.

Cato
18-02-05, 21:48
Yeah, it was kinda silly. ^_^

Anubis_AF
18-02-05, 21:49
Indeed Neteru :D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif

Draco
18-02-05, 23:17
I could argue about it or just simply read a history book.

Nautilus
19-02-05, 00:32
I could argue about it or just simply read a history book.An American one I would assume :D just kidding…

@Flipper1987, yes, there is bigotry, but you should bear in mind that the prejudice takes place on both sides... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

This global warming problem is a true mess, actually. As far as I know, however, its relation to air pollution has never been fully proved. It’s only a theory among others. Our dear planet has grown hotter and cooled down several times during millions of years, something that happens naturally and is inevitable. Some times due to changes in the sun’s surface, other times due to the “greenhouse” effect (eg. volcanoes), you name it. This time around we’re not sure, and, somehow, environmentalists made it as if it was a sure thing. But before you go on bashing me, you should know that I’m an environmentalist myself! Only I’m a man of science as well... So don’t take me wrong when I say that the two things being discussed here *might* be unrelated, in fact, I’ve always supported the Kyoto accord since, global warming or no global warming, pollution is never welcome!

As for USA, well, I believe the reasons are pretty obvious; the industrial lobby is far too powerful! You must agree that lobbies have many times taken America to places it was better off miles (or kilometres) away from… but rest assured you are not alone... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

andromeda_eats
19-02-05, 01:39
Originally posted by Melonie Tomb Raider:
I'm so sick of people critisizing my country. You don't live here, so why do you care? And what you fail to realize is that we are in a war. Let's look at the big picture here. Polution can wait, what's more important is settling this war. AHAHAHAHAHAHA LMFAO!!!

Nautilus
19-02-05, 01:51
Are you telling us you think this God blessed war isn't way more important than our planet's 'health'?! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/yikes.gif Shame on you!

No, not really... I’m just (obviously) being sarcastic...

andromeda_eats
19-02-05, 01:55
Eric: are you trying to tell me that you think America is the most important part of the world, and that the rest of the world is somehow "jealous" of the majestic and impressive United States? Oh please! ARGH! This elitist attitude that you practice infuriates me! You are not more superior then any other human!! I didnt think it was possible for racism to exsist in a country wholistic form, against the rest of the world!

MELONIE: My country is in your war as well. Dont you dare ****ing pretend that I have "forgotten" or was oblivious to the fact that Australians are dying alongside Americans as well. You better tread lightly when you mention the war because by God, Australia is fighting as well.

Lets look at the big picture?! That is exactly what makes you an elitist. The big picture is THE REST OF THE WORLD! Just because it doesnt affect you and you alone doesnt belittle the issue!!

Pollution can wait? WHATS MORE IMPORTANT IS SETTLING THIS WAR!!! AHAHAHAHA!

America started the war in the first place. You have made your bed and are now having to lie in it.

I wish, I WISH that you could spend a year outside of your country, in Australia, the UK, somewhere, to take off your rose coloured glasses and see your country and the rest of the world as it is. I have never been so revoulted, felt so physically ill from the elitist comments you and Eric have made. People criticise your country for a reason, and no its not because we are ignorant and dont know any better. I have lived in your country, but for those who havent, its not hard to see where the problem(s) lies.

ARGH! So ****ing angry.

[ 19. February 2005, 01:57: Message edited by: andromeda_eats ]

tlr online
19-02-05, 03:32
Originally posted by andromeda_eats:
started the war in the first place. You have made your bed and are now having to lie in it.Agreed! As far as I'm concerned, America deserves everything she gets!! It's a shame the general populous (since it was that sector that put terrorist-Bush back in power) is too ignorant (or arrogant) to learn by our (British) mistakes.

Flipper. Assuming you teach what you preach - What scares me most about your predicament is that you're charged with the education of school children. No wonder terrorist-Bush was re-elected, when folk like you impose your political views on innocent folk and impair the impartiality of those previously ignorant to the fact that America is solely responsible for a fractured world community and national instability. This, IMO, makes you just as dangerous as those you label terrorists, because you are indirectly inciting hatred against those who are fighting for freedom (or freedom to evolve naturally (a luxury both the U.S. and U.K have had.)) Anyone that challenges the U.S. is automatically labelled a terrorist by your stupid President, yet it was the U.S. meddling in foreign affairs in the first place that kick-started the trouble in Iraq. Your nation represents the biggest hypocrisy on the face of this planet. Bush needs to be removed from power. If your electorate has not the backbone to do it, then I pray a greater power may intervene.

Eric. I pity you. Sincerely, for not having the backbone, or the scope, to comprehend just what a monster the U.S. now represents. Your country is now the biggest threat to world peace in our times!! I am ashamed to live in a country that has supported the U.S.’s illegal occupation in the Middle East. Your quest to become the leader of the free world – at the expense of all non-U.S. soil - is what has now made you the target you have become, and I have absolutely no sympathy for your cause.

tlr online
19-02-05, 03:43
Originally posted by Melonie Tomb Raider:
You don't live here, so why do you care? That's right. I don't live in the U.S. THANK GOD! But the actions of the U.S. effects my country, and the rest of the world! That fact that your terrorist President armed - then invaded - a foreign power, and our government blindly followed despite nationwide disapproval, has made us (Britain) vulnerable to a terrorist attack.

Both Blair and Bush need to be held accountable for their actions, as does anyone who aided Bush in winning a second term - because a vote for Bush is a vote for terrorism!

Draco
19-02-05, 04:05
Originally posted by andromeda_eats:
Eric: are you trying to tell me that you think America is the most important part of the world, and that the rest of the world is somehow "jealous" of the majestic and impressive United States? Oh please! ARGH! This elitist attitude that you practice infuriates me! You are not more superior then any other human!! I didnt think it was possible for racism to exsist in a country wholistic form, against the rest of the world!Not at all, but that doesn't stop other people from thinking that. In and out of the US.

tlr, People keep telling me I should be ashamed of my country, but I can't bring myself to buy into the propoganda. To call me a coward because I disagree with you is the pinnacle of why I do disagree with you. It's ironic really.

Draco
19-02-05, 04:07
Originally posted by tlr online:
That fact that your terrorist President armed - then invaded - a foreign powerThat's a funny fact...but calling it a fact is a lie.

tlr online
19-02-05, 04:22
Originally posted by andromeda_eats:
tlr, People keep telling me I should be ashamed of my country, but I can't bring myself to buy into the propoganda. Eric. As long as this narrow-minded, arrogant, blinkered thinking exists, America will continue to be attacked, as will the U.K. Indeed it’s ironic. Your inability to expand your vision and your resolution to point the finger of blame elsewhere is the sole reason your nation remains on terrorist alert. It’s farcical you haven’t the humanity and decency to accept responsibility for your actions.

The U.K will soon host a general election. I can only hope justice will prevail, and Blair will be removed from power. Prior to the war in Iraq, IMO Blair's tenure at governing our country was pretty damn good. However, Blair's support of the illegal occupation of Iraq I will never forgive, as much as I liked the guy before.

Flipper1987
19-02-05, 04:30
Originally posted by tlr online:
Flipper. What scares me most about your predicament is that you're charged with the education of school children. No wonder terrorist-Bush was re-elected, when folk like you impose your political views on innocent folk and impair the impartiality of those previously ignorant to the fact that America is solely responsible for a fractured world community and national instability. This, IMO, makes you just as dangerous as those you label terrorists, because you are indirectly inciting hatred against those who are fighting for freedom (or freedom to evolve naturally (a luxury both the U.S. and U.K have had.)) Anyone that challenges the U.S. is automatically labelled a terrorist by your stupid President, yet it was the U.S. meddling in foreign affairs in the first place that kick-started the trouble in Iraq. Your nation represents the biggest hypocrisy on the face of this planet. Bush needs to be removed from power. If your electorate has not the backbone to do it, then I pray a greater power may intervene.

Eric. I pity you. Sincerely, for not having the backbone, or the scope, to comprehend just what a monster the U.S. now represents. Your country is now the biggest threat to world peace in our times!! I am ashamed to live in a country that has supported the U.S.’s illegal occupation in the Middle East. Your quest to become the leader of the free world – at the expense of all non-U.S. soil - is what has now made you the target you have become, and I have absolutely no sympathy for your cause. Wow! tlronline, you have completely come unhinged. Disagreeing with U.S. policy is one thing, but your rambling, irresponsible dissertation is borderline psychotic. Reasonable people can disagree over a lot of issues, and constructive debate can benefit everyone; however, you are clearly beyond such reasonable discourse.

I reject your childish, hate-filled rants and the warped ideology that fuels it! You may criticize my country all you want (and I will defend it each and every time), but once you criticize my profession and my participation in it, you have recklessly abandoned the basic standards of civilized society.

HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF WHAT YOU DID! You should be completely ashamed of yourself!

FLIPPER

[ 19. February 2005, 05:05: Message edited by: Flipper1987 ]

Flipper1987
19-02-05, 04:37
Originally posted by tlr online:
The U.K will soon host a general election. I can only hope justice will prevail, and Blair will be removed from power. Prior to the war in Iraq, IMO Blair's tenure at governing our country was pretty damn good. However, Blair's support of the illegal occupation of Iraq I will never forgive, as much as I liked the guy before. Never before have I cared about the results of another country's election...until today. Howard was re-elected in Australia, Bush was re-elected in the U.S., the terrorists & insurgents FAILED in stopping the democratic elections in Afghanistan and Iraq, and hopefully Blair will be elected to another term.

FLIPPER

Draco
19-02-05, 12:02
Originally posted by tlr online:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by andromeda_eats:
tlr, People keep telling me I should be ashamed of my country, but I can't bring myself to buy into the propoganda. Eric. As long as this narrow-minded, arrogant, blinkered thinking exists, America will continue to be attacked, as will the U.K. Indeed it’s ironic. Your inability to expand your vision and your resolution to point the finger of blame elsewhere is the sole reason your nation remains on terrorist alert. It’s farcical you haven’t the humanity and decency to accept responsibility for your actions.

The U.K will soon host a general election. I can only hope justice will prevail, and Blair will be removed from power. Prior to the war in Iraq, IMO Blair's tenure at governing our country was pretty damn good. However, Blair's support of the illegal occupation of Iraq I will never forgive, as much as I liked the guy before. </font>[/QUOTE]I bet you were one of the people that looked at Spain and thought that pulling out was the answer. I find it incredibly ironic that you call ME the coward.

andromeda_eats
19-02-05, 12:25
Originally posted by Draco:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by andromeda_eats:
Not at all, but that doesn't stop other people from thinking that. In and out of the US.

tlr, People keep telling me I should be ashamed of my country, but I can't bring myself to buy into the propoganda. To call me a coward because I disagree with you is the pinnacle of why I do disagree with you. It's ironic really. </font>[/QUOTE]No-one is challenging your patriotism, or asking you to denounce it. Everyone loves their country and should sing it loud and sing it proud. You shouldnt have to be ashamed or embarrassed of America. But certainly you can understand what is being said here: certain people (Bush) have undertaken certain actions (the war, not joining Kyoto, not giving a **** about anything but America, etc, etc) that have tainted America's once beautiful reputation with the rest of the world.

I understand. If the rest of the world was either laughing at Australia or detesting it I would be incredibly hurt, but I wouldnt ignore what was happening. No-one is saying that YOU instigated such actions. But you cant blindly and unquestionabley follow your leaders actions. The rest of the world are not cowards!! Oh lord, you are so blind. Heres a little equation:

Bush starts a war. Asks everyone else to SACRIFICE THE LIVES OF THEIR MEN for America. Those who agree suffer a much worse fate then those who dont. Its your war. I cannot believe Bush was selfish enough to ask the world for more lives. Bush asked my country to send their young men off to die, FOR HIS ****ING cause, not ours.

We have suffered terrorist attacks here in Australia, that have devestated our country and killed thousands of Australians in the past few years. Dont tell me that Bush is fighting for a "free world." Dont defend your leader for starting a war because of "terrorism" and then asking the rest of us to fight, and call those cowards who were intelligent and brave enough to say no. Deal with your own ****ing **** and leave us out of it.

tlr online
19-02-05, 12:46
Originally posted by Flipper1987:
Wow! tlronline, you have completely come unhinged. Disagreeing with U.S. policy is one thing, but your rambling, irresponsible dissertation is borderline psychotic. Notice a trend here? Anyone disagreeding with what is actually happening IN REAL LIFE is labelled! I truly believe you are entirely disconnected from reality.

On the contrary. I am exasperated and frustrated that some folk think the U.S. is blameless in creating the mess it now find itself in. The U.S. has become so righteous, it has put itself above the law. It has abused its position on the world forum and sadly there is no one out there capable of challenging that.

tlr online
19-02-05, 12:52
Originally posted by Draco:
I bet you were one of the people that looked at Spain and thought that pulling out was the answer. I find it incredibly ironic that you call ME the coward. Spain, like the U.S. and UK, shouldn’t have been there in the first place! Spain illegally occupied a country, just the same as the U.S. and UK, yet your warped mind has managed to justify this illegal occupation and brand Spain cowards for finally realising their mistakes – adhering TO THE LAW – and withdrawing from Iraq.

tlr online
19-02-05, 13:09
Originally posted by Flipper1987:
Reasonable people can disagree over a lot of issues, and constructive debate can benefit everyone; however, you are clearly beyond such reasonable discourse.Perhaps you are right on that point, but my example is still valid - and reason ended the day the U.S. bombed the hell out of IRAQ. I firmly believe that those in a position to influence others have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to present both cases of the argument. I sincerely hope you present both sides of the argument impartially to those under your charge, because whether you accept it or not, you are moulding future Americans, and what you school them at this time in their lives will be instrumental in helping them form political opinions and possibly the decision to lay down their lives in fighting for what they believe in.

Geck-o-Lizard
19-02-05, 13:14
Originally posted by Flipper1987
Don't you love it when virulent anti-American bigotry rears its ugly head?You brought it upon yourselves. Don't go kicking the rest of the world in the groin and expect them to like you afterwards.

tlr online
19-02-05, 13:35
Originally posted by Flipper1987:
... you have recklessly abandoned the basic standards of civilized society.Finally, this Sir is a priceless statement, and perfectly illustrates my argument of U.S. hypocrisy. I thank you for it. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Do you think bombing a country and then occupying it "civilized"? Let's think about that for a second. The U.S. military might is unmatched at this time, and Bush ordered American troops onto non-U.S. soil to completely flatten a country on a pretence!

For a moment, let's see the world through your eyes. Sadam represented a global threat, according to the U.S. He harboured nuclear weapons (or WMD) and crippled a nation.

Now, let's ignore the fact that Sadam wasn't really a thread to world peace. Let's also brush aside the FACT that NO WEAPONS WERE EVER FOUND. Ignoring also the fact that WEAPONS ALLEGEDLY EXISTING was the compelling factor for war in the first place, would you say bombing a country "reasonable" in removing one man from power? Are you saying that the U.S. (self proclaimed leader of the free world) doesn't have the ability of finding one man, and removing him from power if indeed he did ever represent a global threat? Let’s not forget that the U.S. itself ARMED Sadam many years ago!!! Is this at all reminiscent of the fabled tale Dr Frankenstein to you? Was the decision to invade Iraq "civilised" or "reasonable"?

The U.S. and UK have moved the goal posts so many times, I'd commend anyone actually remembering why we invaded Iraq in the first place.

Do you think you will ever be prepared to accept SOME responsibility for the predicament the U.S. is now in? Personally Flipper, I am unable to comprehend how a person can think the actions of the U.S. completely justified. I do not advocate war. I advocate evolution. Natural evolution. We (the UK) had the luxury of natural evolution, as did the U.S.

If the current economic climate continues, in 20 years China will displace the U.S. as the worlds most powerful economy. Will the U.S. then label China a threat and take her to war?

Still so much to learn about harmony.

[ 19. February 2005, 13:43: Message edited by: tlr online ]

tlr online
19-02-05, 13:53
Flipper. I want to clarify one point further, to dispel any preconceptions you may have garnered from my contribution to this thread.

I was not directly attacking you. I was using your profession as an example, an example I have expanded on above. I consider any broadcast of views (my own included) to be projected impartially and without bias. I accept that my opinions may directly influence (or alter) the opinions of others, and I am careful to substantiate how I have arrived at my conclusions.

I'm sorry if you felt my comments unreasonable. I am passionate about what I believe in.

Geck-o-Lizard
19-02-05, 13:56
Roll on DefCon 1. :rolleyes: :(

[ 19. February 2005, 13:57: Message edited by: Geck-o-Lizard ]

Nautilus
19-02-05, 15:20
Spain, like the U.S. and UK, shouldn’t have been there in the first place! Spain illegally occupied a country, just the same as the U.S. and UK, yet your warped mind has managed to justify this illegal occupation and brand Spain cowards for finally realising their mistakes – adhering TO THE LAW – and withdrawing from Iraq.As much as I’m against this illegal war, I cannot fail to realise that it had some good ‘side effects’ such as freeing the Iraqis from the hands of a merciless dictator that killed his own people. I mean, the USA started this war for the wrong reasons, but that doesn’t change the fact that there *is* terrorism! Yes, some of it is indeed fuelled by both the extreme religiousness and ‘imperialism’ the US are so keen on, but you can’t say the Iraqis and the Afghanis were living merry lives prior to the occupation, at least now there’s hope. I wonder when North Korea will get its turn. :rolleyes: Anyway, the point here is that Spain engaged in this war. In case you don’t know, Spain has endured inside terrorist attacks for decades! And what happened was that the previous government was quite successful at ‘exterminating’ this menace, most of the terrorists were in jail by the end of the term... Then, one day before elections (I think), a terrorist attack took place (and many lives) at the main train station in Madrid. It was clearly meant to overthrown the party in office, and so it did... If you ask me, I say the terrorists won, and won greatly, they shown us how easily they can rule us all! Months later the Spanish withdrawn from Iraq and started freeing the terrorists at home... Consequences? The terrorist attacks in Spain have resumed as expected... :rolleyes:

This war has been started and there is no going back now! To leave Iraq not only gives the terrorists more power and confidence but also leaves the Iraqis to a destiny worse then the one they had with Saddam. Do you want the occupation forces to leave? Fine, have them leave, but first, make sure you tidy up correctly...

[ 20. February 2005, 01:56: Message edited by: Nautilus ]

Geck-o-Lizard
19-02-05, 15:36
it had some good ‘side effects’ such as freeing the Iraqis from the hands of a merciless dictator that killed his own people.Yeah; what's even better is that we are killing them now!

[ 19. February 2005, 15:37: Message edited by: Geck-o-Lizard ]

Nautilus
19-02-05, 15:49
We?! Talk for yourself...

Anyway, supposedly, now *they* are killing terrorist soldiers, not harmless civilians...

Neteru
19-02-05, 16:00
I've got little to say on this topic, but:

Nautilus:
I cannot fail to realise that it had some good ‘side effects’ such as freeing the Iraqis from the hands of a merciless dictator that killed his own people.The end does not justify the means.

Geck-o-Lizard
19-02-05, 16:34
Originally posted by Nautilus:
Anyway, supposedly, now *they* are killing terrorist soldiers, not harmless civilians... What source told you that terrorist soldiers, not civilians, are the ones being murdered in their hundreds?

wantafanta
19-02-05, 16:48
The problem is not America. It is George W. Bush. One of his first acts as president was to raise the level of Arsenic permissable in our drinking water. Only after public outrage did he backtrack. He since has attempted to raise the level of Mercury allowed in our air and water. Mercury is a deadly poison which is absorbed into the tissues of our large fish such as tuna. Pregnant women are advised not to eat tuna - especially the Albacore. So much for the pro-life compassionate conservative. The Bush record is indefensible and a disgrace to America and the world:

Published by the December 11, 2003 issue of Rolling Stone
Crimes Against Nature
by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

George W. Bush will go down in history as America's worst environmental president. In a ferocious three-year attack, the Bush administration has initiated more than 200 major rollbacks of America's environmental laws, weakening the protection of our country's air, water, public lands and wildlife. Cloaked in meticulously crafted language designed to deceive the public, the administration intends to eliminate the nation's most important environmental laws by the end of the year. Under the guidance of Republican pollster Frank Luntz, the Bush White House has actively hidden its anti-environmental program behind deceptive rhetoric, telegenic spokespeople, secrecy and the intimidation of scientists and bureaucrats. The Bush attack was not entirely unexpected. George W. Bush had the grimmest environmental record of any governor during his tenure in Texas. Texas became number one in air and water pollution and in the release of toxic chemicals. In his six years in Austin, he championed a short-term pollution-based prosperity, which enriched his political contributors and corporate cronies by lowering the quality of life for everyone else. Now President Bush is set to do the same to America. After three years, his policies are already bearing fruit, diminishing standards of living for millions of Americans.

I am angry both as a citizen and a father. Three of my sons have asthma, and I watch them struggle to breathe on bad-air days. And they're comparatively lucky: One in four African-American children in New York shares this affliction; their suffering is often unrelieved because they lack the insurance and high-quality health care that keep my sons alive. My kids are among the millions of Americans who cannot enjoy the seminal American experience of fishing locally with their dad and eating their catch. Most freshwater fish in New York and all in Connecticut are now under consumption advisories. A main source of mercury pollution in America, as well as asthma-provoking ozone and particulates, is the coal-burning power plants that President Bush recently excused from complying with the Clean Air Act.

The attacks began on Inauguration Day, when President Bush's chief of staff and former General Motors lobbyist Andrew Card quietly initiated a moratorium on all recently adopted regulations. Since then, the White House has enlisted every federal agency that oversees environmental programs in a coordinated effort to relax rules aimed at the oil, coal, logging, mining and chemical industries as well as automakers, real estate developers, corporate agribusiness and other industries.

Bush's Environmental Protection Agency has halted work on sixty-two environmental standards, the federal Department of Agriculture has stopped work on fifty-seven standards, and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration has halted twenty-one new standards. The EPA completed just two major rules -- both under court order and both watered down at industry request -- compared to twenty-three completed by the Clinton administration and fourteen by the Bush Sr. administration in their first two years.

tlr online
19-02-05, 16:59
So why, on God's earth, is this man being allowed to get away with this!? How can the lesser half of America justify re-electing Bush!?

tlr online
19-02-05, 17:08
Originally posted by Draco:
Europe is still sore over not being the most important part of the world. Don't mind them.Eric. If you really believe this, I'd recommend giving Jim Henson Productions a call. I hear they're auditioning for muppets!

tlr online
19-02-05, 17:50
I have to pop out this evening, so I’ll be leaving shortly. I would, however, like to ask any pro-Bush supporter the following:

How do you feel when almost half the American population voted AGAINST Bush in the elections? If it wasn’t for Ohio, Kerry would be President. Does that not speak volumes of the discord even among your fellow countrymen.

What do you think of folk around the world who continue to condemn Bush and the U.S.? Can you appreciate their concern. The majority of the world’s population condemns the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. Those are extraordinary figures, wouldn’t you say.

Why did you vote for Bush?

* NB. Flipper, Eric. If you feel able to answer three direct questions with three direct answers, knock yourself out! No rhetoric please.

Anubis_AF
19-02-05, 18:00
I wish we have a lot more people like you tlr.

Draco
20-02-05, 00:24
Originally posted by tlr online:
How do you feel when almost half the American population voted AGAINST Bush in the elections? If it wasn’t for Ohio, Kerry would be President. Does that not speak volumes of the discord even among your fellow countrymen.The key word there is 'AGAINST', nobody voted for Kerry, they either voted for Bush or against Bush.

And yes is speaks loudly, and frankly it further divides the nation on something it should be united on. Kerry getting into office would have made no difference in Iraq.

Originally posted by tlr online:
What do you think of folk around the world who continue to condemn Bush and the U.S.? Can you appreciate their concern. The majority of the world’s population condemns the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. Those are extraordinary figures, wouldn’t you say.I personally think going into Iraq was a blunder. Frankly freedom for other people is not worth tarnishing the name of the United States.

Btw, the majority of the world condemns a lot of things, but I still have yet for world opinion to actually do something other than just complain.

Originally posted by tlr online:
Why did you vote for Bush?I vote against socialism at every turn.

Originally posted by tlr online:
* NB. Flipper, Eric. If you feel able to answer three direct questions with three direct answers, knock yourself out! No rhetoric please. You would need three direct questions first.

[ 20. February 2005, 00:25: Message edited by: Draco ]

Draco
20-02-05, 00:28
Originally posted by tlr online:
So why, on God's earth, is this man being allowed to get away with this!? How can the lesser half of America justify re-electing Bush!? Statements like that are why I have a hard time seeing your side of it and actually caring.

What if I were to say: How can the lesser half of America justify not re-electing Bush!?

Nautilus
20-02-05, 00:28
The end does not justify the means.I never said it did, hence my disapproval regarding this war…

What source told you that terrorist soldiers, not civilians, are the ones being murdered in their hundreds?The only one I have… the media. Is there any other you might have?! Unless you have some insight info about this I don’t think I understand your point…

Draco
20-02-05, 00:30
Originally posted by Geck-o-Lizard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nautilus:
Anyway, supposedly, now *they* are killing terrorist soldiers, not harmless civilians... What source told you that terrorist soldiers, not civilians, are the ones being murdered in their hundreds? </font>[/QUOTE]If you call someone trying to kill you a civilian...

Draco
20-02-05, 00:37
Originally posted by tlr online:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:
I bet you were one of the people that looked at Spain and thought that pulling out was the answer. I find it incredibly ironic that you call ME the coward. Spain, like the U.S. and UK, shouldn’t have been there in the first place! Spain illegally occupied a country, just the same as the U.S. and UK, yet your warped mind has managed to justify this illegal occupation and brand Spain cowards for finally realising their mistakes – adhering TO THE LAW – and withdrawing from Iraq. </font>[/QUOTE]Iraq was illegally occuppied by Saddam Hussein. He defied the UN on numerous occassions, nearly every country has supported resolutions against him, but as soon as someone invades, none of that matters...simply because only the US actually meant what we said to Iraq through the UN...

If it matters so much that we didn't find MWDs, what about all the other stuff? Are you seriously saying his routine slaughter of the Kurds was alright as long as he didnt have any radioactive sand?

Iraq should have been finished in 1991...when there was still international support.

But it makes me sleep better knowing people would rather see Saddam still in power than voting in Iraq.

Nautilus
20-02-05, 00:43
@wantafanta, are you trying to get people to hate Bush even more?! Well if so, you succeeded… at least with me. This is why I don’t even like to read/watch this kind of articles, they just make me angry while I know there’s absolutely nothing I can possibly do about it. And the worse thing is that I know that stuff like this will continue to pop up for the next four years… if only you could find your way through impeachment…

[ 20. February 2005, 00:45: Message edited by: Nautilus ]

wantafanta
20-02-05, 01:14
Originally posted by Nautilus:
@wantafanta, are you trying to get people to hate Bush even more?! Well if so, you succeeded… at least with me. This is why I don’t even like to read/watch this kind of articles, they just make me angry while I know there’s absolutely nothing I can possibly do about it. And the worse thing is that I know that stuff like this will continue to pop up for the next four years… if only you could find your way through impeachment… I understand what you mean. I try to post puzzles or interesting pictures, usually. But some stories just have to be told. The American news won't do it.

Simulation
20-02-05, 01:34
Is there any chance that this thread might actually start discussing Global Warming and the USA refusal to reduce emmissions?

Personally, I think that as long as US Government is funded by Big Business there is no chance of them introducing any sensible measures. Any pressure from the International community will be seen by them as a direct threat to their economy.

Geck-o-Lizard
20-02-05, 03:28
Originally posted by Nautilus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What source told you that terrorist soldiers, not civilians, are the ones being murdered in their hundreds?The only one I have… the media. Is there any other you might have?! Unless you have some insight info about this I don’t think I understand your point… </font>[/QUOTE]The media is riddled with lies and mis-truths. That's what it's [in]famous for, and that's my point. Of course they say the enemy is being killed; that's what you want to hear when you're at war! They don't say anything about the collateral damage or they would make the government and army look bad, and start to make the majority of the public lose faith in the govt.
Here's a few links that show the other half of the story, that Fox doesn't show to you on the tea-time news:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1369548,00.html
http://www.informationwar.org...media_monopoly_gives_us_a _scripted_war_03april2003.htm (http://www.informationwar.org/articlesofinterest/iraq/media_monopoly_gives_us_a_scripted_war_03april2003 .htm)
http://www.independent-media.tv/gtheme.cfm?ftheme_id=42
http://brianx.com/newsbias.html

[edit]
Sorry, Sim http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif
I agree with you. Until the US is run un-influenced by multinational corporations, they aren't going to do anything that might risk a hit in the pocket.

[ 20. February 2005, 03:31: Message edited by: Geck-o-Lizard ]

wantafanta
20-02-05, 04:10
Originally posted by Simulation:
Personally, I think that as long as US Government is funded by Big Business there is no chance of them introducing any sensible measures. Any pressure from the International community will be seen by them as a direct threat to their economy. That's exactly right. But Clinton had a conscience and knew what was right and made the effort. Al Gore, his vice-president was very current on the envrionment issue. Bush, is just a shill for big business, and he is not an informed person, IMO.

A theory is much more than a wild guess. It is arrived at after the collection of facts. We do know that CO2 gas reflects infrared rays (heat) back to the earth. That is a fact. And it is a fact that the earth is warming. Ice pack measurements at the south pole bear this out. The amount of carbon put into the atmosphere each day, mostly from cars, is enormous. This condition did not exist 100 years ago before the industrial age took off. Of course, volcanoes contribute toxic gasses, but they erupt on a fairly regular basis somehwere at any given time. They are a natural pheomenon and already factored in to the environment's natural temperature. A responsible policy, IMO, would be to play it safe and not wait until it is too late. We shouldn't be taking chances. Animal migration patterns can change and diseases can spread to new territories. It could be a real mess.

Draco
20-02-05, 04:41
I love how we can blame everything on the media. One moment the government is censoring all the bad, the next we have prison abuse scandals that are truly pathetic in the world of abuse and torture.

Would somebody please tell the media to stop trying to get the real story, it just make the liberals run in circles.

andromeda_eats
20-02-05, 05:04
America is like that kid at school that was SO competitive it was dangerous and literally believed the world revolved around which made them arrogant and insufferable beyond belief.

Since as long as I can remember, both living within and outside of the States I have seen no selfless acts EVER commited by the US. Every act has maximum personal results, or it is simply rejected.

This selfishness, Eric, are attitudes that the rest of the powerful countries have tried to shake. The EU was formed, which hysterically, you believe was formed solely for competing against the US. In the last 5 years Australia has had repeated attempts at a Referendum to vote whether to become our own Republic, or to stay with the Commonwealth who has nutured and supported us for over 100 years. The overwhelming result has been no. I can think of many other occasions. I can think of even more displays of selfish behaviour by the US.

The world "hates" America because we are sick and tired of the reckless and dangerous child that cares for nothing but themselves and will destroy anything to get what they want.

The rest of the world has grown up. Its time to get over this competitive antisocial elitist attitude that the US practically breeds over there.

MizzXCroft
20-02-05, 05:33
Wow. Lots of heavy stuff on this thread, I could understand why. Anyway, all I have to say is the *US Government* is stubborn to notice such issue like the global warming which could really affect the rest of the world. I'm thinking the reason they won't really concentrate on this topic is because of the war on Iraq and the heavily talked social security crises. This, so far, is what I've been hearing since after the election. But I hope the US Government will actually find time to consider this topic because it will not only affect the US, but the world greatly. I live in the US and believe me, I don't always agree with what the government is doing. America is generous trying to help other countries and really, that's very nice to hear. BUT, sometimes the government doesn't make the best decisions resulting ugly consequences. I like America a lot but the government...well, they need to clean up their mess.

Olvidarse
20-02-05, 06:25
Sigh.

Unfortunately, I agree with Draco and Flipper that the US can't afford to sign the Kyoto agreement. It's just not economically/politically feasible at this moment. You could say... the US is like that ambitious kid who volunteers time in every club/sport. That kid must cut things off to supply time for a more tangible stressor. So in order to multi-task, the US has to cut off the Kyoto agreement. I know that this is very wrong, but we just have too many things on our political palate at this moment.

In my opinion, it is not our right to focus on so many worldly problems. We should've cut back; in the end, the stressed out kid always crumbles under the pressure.

Oh god, four more years.............

Geck-o-Lizard
20-02-05, 09:20
Originally posted by Draco:
Would somebody please tell the media to stop trying to get the real story, it just make the liberals run in circles. The media are making no effort to get or present the real or full story.

Neteru
20-02-05, 10:58
Originally posted by Nautilus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The end does not justify the means.I never said it did, hence my disapproval regarding this war…</font>[/QUOTE]I know you didn't. My comment was a general reminder to anyone. A point made. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Draco
20-02-05, 19:50
Originally posted by Geck-o-Lizard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:
Would somebody please tell the media to stop trying to get the real story, it just make the liberals run in circles. The media are making no effort to get or present the real or full story. </font>[/QUOTE]If you say so. Though CBS has quite proven they don't.

Flipper1987
20-02-05, 21:19
So much to choose from...where shall I start? How about the original topic?

For all those who continue to blame Bush for not following the Kyoto Protocol, the simple fact is that Bush does not have the constitutional power to enforce this international treaty on the U.S. The U.S. Constitution clearly states that the Senate (part of Congress) has the right to approve treaties. Well the Senate (filled with both Democrats & Republicans) shot down the Kyoto Protocol several years ago by a vote of 95-0, and that was before Bush took office in 2001.

Even if Bush decided to come out and support Kyoto, the Protocol would still not be enforced because many Senators (and Americans as well) are still against it.

As I said previously, I agree, along with many Americans, that something needs to be done to affect positive environmental change; however, Kyoto does not appear to be a satisfactory solution. When the world community tells the U.S. that it has to make major economic sacrifices to conform with the Protocol, yet massive polluters like China, India, and Brazil are completely exempt, what do you think the U.S.'s response is going to be?

More to come.

FLIPPER

Geck-o-Lizard
20-02-05, 21:54
Originally posted by Draco:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Geck-o-Lizard:
The media are making no effort to get or present the real or full story. If you say so. Though CBS has quite proven they don't. </font>[/QUOTE]CBS does not constitute "the media" by itself alone.

Flipper1987
20-02-05, 21:59
Originally posted by andromeda_eats:
started the war in the first place. You have made your bed and are now having to lie in it.tlronline responded:
Agreed! As far as I'm concerned, America deserves everything she gets!! It's a shame the general populous (since it was that sector that put terrorist-Bush back in power) is too ignorant (or arrogant) to learn by our (British) mistakes.I'll deal with this "Bush is a terrorist" blather in a future post.

I took great interest in the last sentence in tlronline's quote. He suggests that the segment of the U.S. population that re-elected Bush is largely ignorant of past British mistakes.

On the contrary! Many Americans are well-aware of one of Britain's (and Europe's) mistakes that led to the unleashing of one of the greatest horrors ever visited upon this world: World War II.

During the 1930s, when the German Weimar Republic was being transformed into Nazi Germany, Hitler engaged in a strategy to violate the Treaty of Versailles at every turn. Everytime Hitler did so (enlargening the army, building offensive weapons, marching into the Rhineland, etc...), the response of Britain, France, and the League of Nations was feeble, which further encouraged Nazi Germany to become more aggressive. After the infamous appeasement strategy was employed by Chamberlain in Munich, Hitler then took Czechoslovakia and Poland.

For 6 years the traditional powers of Europe stood by and did relatively nothing as the Nazi threat strengthened and expanded. In fact, Europe's inaction actually encouraged Hitler & Mussolini to pursue their plans of world domination. The price of this inaction: a 6 year war that resulted in upwards of 60 million dead (some believe that number is conservative). Oh how I wish that some "arrogant" nation would have gone into Nazi Germany early on & prevented all this.

Please don't think that I'm comparing World War II to the 12 years in-between the Persian Gulf War (1991) and Operation Iraqi Freedom (2003); however, Hussein did violate the treaty that ended the Persian Gulf War. Hussein did violate/ignore 16-17 (I lost count) UN resolutions. Similarities? I think I see a few.

Americans ignorant of past British mistakes? Not bloody likely.

And before anyone thinks I'm anti-British, I have nothing but respect for Great Britain. I've been there twice, enjoyed the people, and plan on visiting again in the near future.

More to come. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

FLIPPER

[ 21. February 2005, 01:38: Message edited by: Flipper1987 ]

Flipper1987
20-02-05, 22:43
Let me remind all of you what tlronline said earlier that attracted my ire (before he edited it):
Flipper. What scares me most about your predicament is that you're charged with the education of school children. No wonder terrorist-Bush was re-elected, when folk like you impose your political views on innocent folk and impair the impartiality of those previously ignorant to the fact that America is solely responsible for a fractured world community and national instability. This, IMO, makes you just as dangerous as those you label terrorists, because you are indirectly inciting hatred against those who are fighting for freedom (or freedom to evolve naturally (a luxury both the U.S. and U.K have had.)) Anyone that challenges the U.S. is automatically labelled a terrorist by your stupid President, yet it was the U.S. meddling in foreign affairs in the first place that kick-started the trouble in Iraq. Your nation represents the biggest hypocrisy on the face of this planet. Bush needs to be removed from power. If your electorate has not the backbone to do it, then I pray a greater power may intervene.
Wow! "...when folk like you impose your political views on innocent folk..."

Originally this thread was about Kyoto!

I'm sorry if you felt my comments unreasonable. I am passionate about what I believe in.Yes, you were quite "passionate" in implying that I use my position as an educator to spread propaganda to those that I teach. Of course, you had every reason to say that. After all, if I'm dumb enough to take a contradictory position to yours on this website, then I must be a demagogue in the classroom.

The next time you feel like impugning my professional credibility in the future, please don't pretend (in a future post) that it wasn't your intention to do so when the first quote clearly shows that it was. I have little patience and respect for those who attack my professional credibility and insult my intelligence in the same thread.

FLIPPER

Simulation
20-02-05, 23:11
Hi Flipper, You keep referring to China, India and Brazil as "massive polluters" and therefore it is not fair that the US should cut back, even though you seem to have failed to acknowledge that the US is THE major polluter by a fair margin. It has 4% of the world population, but generates 25% of the pollution....

Is the US just going to ignore it’s responsibilities?

The UE has set targets to reduce pollution and it looks likely that it will achieve 8% by 2012.

So, what is the US going to do.......