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voltz
09-02-12, 21:00
Dur-WcVFcVQ

Btw, found the article for it. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/rescued-dog-bites-nbc-anchor-face-during-feel-141755422.html

Legend of Lara
09-02-12, 21:06
Valentine's Day is a highly touchy subject for that dog.

Alright. Okay. Alright. Okay.

xXhayleyroxXx
09-02-12, 21:07
I don't get what the point of this thread is... if you're trying to make dogs look bad, the presenter put her face right next to the dog's, which is a big no-no unless the dog knows you and is comfortable. From the video we can't know the dog's past and how its been treated and why it acted like this, but biting is a response to being scared :/

Lavinder
09-02-12, 21:11
The dog is obviously over excited being in a new place, and the woman does not help by sticking her face right up to the dogs face.

Would you have the same reaction to the video if you saw a woman getting close to a duck and it bit her?

voltz
09-02-12, 21:19
This is where I'm bringing your perspective into conflict. first you believe the anchor is at fault because of where her head was located and thus deserved to get bit. Now let's say we have this dog around children, somebody's kid is going to get close and end up with a few bloody teeth marks in their face. How do you feel on that?

I really do think there's a fine line crossed when you do something a pet doesn't like vs when said pet is willing to lash out without any concern for the health of others, or the consequences on itself. In a case like this, either the dog has to be put back through training, or possibly be restricted due to being a safety risk to others.

Btw, pit-bulls are nice dogs. (See if you can decipher the real subject over this bit of sarcasm)

xXhayleyroxXx
09-02-12, 21:23
This is where I'm bringing your perspective into conflict. first you believe the anchor is at fault because of where her head was located and thus deserved to get bit. Now let's say we have this dog around children, somebody's kid is going to get close and end up with a few bloody teeth marks in their face. How do you feel on that?

I really do think there's a fine line crossed when you do something a pet doesn't like vs when said pet is willing to lash out without any concern for the health of others, or the consequences on itself. In a case like this, either the dog has to be put back through training, or possibly be restricted due to being a safety risk to others.

Btw, pit-bulls are nice dogs. (See if you can decipher the real subject over this bit of sarcasm)

I'm assuming its a rescue dog needing a home and that is it's reason to be on the show -- it would have been put through strict behavioural tests before even going on the show. If they are deemed unfit, and it might well have been after it bit the woman, then they're put down. They're not let near children.

Lavinder
09-02-12, 21:23
This is where I'm bringing your perspective into conflict. first you believe the anchor is at fault because of where her head was located and thus deserved to get bit. Now let's say we have this dog around children, somebody's kid is going to get close and end up with a few bloody teeth marks in their face. How do you feel on that?

I really do think there's a fine line crossed when you do something a pet doesn't like vs when said pet is willing to lash out without any concern for the health of others, or the consequences on itself. In a case like this, either the dog has to be put back through training, or possibly be restricted due to being a safety risk to others.

Btw, pit-bulls are nice dogs. (See if you can decipher this bit of sarcasm)


It's the owners responsibility to keep full control of the dog, keeping it on a sturdy short lead and making sure that if they have visitors that the dog is introduced to the child slowly with or without a muzzle.

I have a miniature Jack Russell and he's the most loving dog in the world and he never growls/bites etc. but when he sees strangers he gets scared and starts to growl and jump about, once he gets to know the person he will give them big sloppy kisses and sit on their shoulder.

It's all about the owner knowing the dog and interpreting it's behaviour.

voltz
09-02-12, 21:36
I have a miniature Jack Russell and he's the most loving dog in the world and he never growls/bites etc. but when he sees strangers he gets scared and starts to growl and jump about, once he gets to know the person he will give them big sloppy kisses and sit on their shoulder.

I've had a neighbor's german shepherd act this way. It was originally kept as a guard dog, but they were a little disappointed because she acts like a house dog who will come up to sniff check first, then lean against your leg so hard your pants got caked with hair all over. (many fun times with the lint roller over that). Anyway, she was pretty vicious when it came to their son coming back from duty as he has a somewhat rough attitude and beer breath, then ended up with a few stitches over it.

patriots88888
09-02-12, 21:38
I wouldn't like it if that woman got directly in my face either. She should consider herself lucky it wasn't worse and take this as a lesson learned... don't mess with the pit bull.

Lavinder
09-02-12, 21:40
I don't think my Charlie would ever be vicious - he just warns you not to get too close when you first walk in and he's never bared his teeth at anyone.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/31152_126083354087934_100000588093965_212431_36859 14_n.jpg

voltz
09-02-12, 21:41
I wouldn't like it if that woman got directly in my face either. She should consider herself lucky it wasn't worse and take this as a lesson learned... don't mess with the pit bull.

She should sue to have it put down. (Get up in arms everybody!) :yah:

ozzman
09-02-12, 21:43
the dog did that because the person put her face too close, some dogs see that as a threat or invasion, mine doesn't like that all to well, you could see that the dog was being crowded and such too,

Greenapple968
09-02-12, 21:55
I don't think my Charlie would ever be vicious - he just warns you not to get too close when you first walk in and he's never bared his teeth at anyone.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/31152_126083354087934_100000588093965_212431_36859 14_n.jpg

Cute! :D

As for the thread. The dog should recieve training and the owner perhaps liable for the damage caused; if a dog attacks then it's usually because of its upbringing. Putting animals down over such trivial accidents is wrong, immoral and pathetic.

Ikas90
09-02-12, 21:56
Logically, I think the hands can cause more harm to the dog than the face.

But anyway, if a pitbull ever did that to me.. don't even get me started. I'm very sensitive to that kind of thing. But first of all, I wouldn't even go near the dog, lol.

My dad's dog did this to me not too long ago. And it knows me well, so it had no excuse. I know it just did it to express dominance. I was so close to giving it a boot and locking it in a dark room for the whole day. Dogs need to be disciplined.

voltz
09-02-12, 22:08
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/31152_126083354087934_100000588093965_212431_36859 14_n.jpg

You should see the three wiener dogs my sister has.

xXhayleyroxXx
09-02-12, 22:10
Logically, I think the hands can cause more harm to the dog than the face..

Yeah but, when dogs attack each other, they see the face as a threat because its where the teeth and the eye contact are :p If it was an aggressive dog, it wouldn't let her go near it and stroke it like she did.

Greenapple968
09-02-12, 22:12
Yeah but, when dogs attack each other, they see the face as a threat because its where the teeth and the eye contact are :p If it was an aggressive dog, it wouldn't let her go near it and stroke it like she did.

You certainly understand animals well. :)

xXhayleyroxXx
09-02-12, 22:14
You certainly understand animals well. :)

I've been brought up with them and I kinda have to understand them to do well on my course and go into the animal care industry :p <3

Greenapple968
09-02-12, 22:32
She should sue to have it put down. (Get up in arms everybody!) :yah:

So an animal should be killed for biting somebody, but when a human abuses an animal they get a tap on the wrist and nothing more? Think about hunters, think about scientists who test on animals, think about the people who abuse animals, like the guy who threw the dog off a bridge. Think about the absolute sheer agony these animals go through. They've done nothing to deserve such torture. Are the people punished? No. But when an animal attacks a human, causes little harm and usually has reasons for it the animal is killed?

I struggle to understand some people. The way we treat animals is appalling.

voltz
09-02-12, 22:34
^
You obviously can't tell a joke when you see one.

Greenapple968
09-02-12, 22:43
^
You obviously can't tell a joke when you see one.

When you feel strongly about Animal Rights, it's hard to see the funny side to derogative remarks made about animals.

voltz
09-02-12, 23:15
Well there is such a thing as being "too supportive", for example *coughPETAcough*.

knightgames
09-02-12, 23:29
I had a situation 15 years ago where I was walking my 2 year old niece. We came upon a house whose owner had several pit bulls. Now, I don't usually panic at dogs, but this pit bull ran out to the sidewalk and stopped in front of my niece. She was excited to see the dog, and the dog didn't look threatening. The owner came out immediately. He was 'bragging' how well trained the dog was and that if he wanted to the dog would have alreasy done something. Some how, I think he was trying to be comforting. Paige just patted the dog and the owner held him by the collar. Nothing happened and it's probably the way most dog encounters happen. But to this day I think of her face being the same hieght of the dog's face and I consider what could have happened. Ice goes through my veins.

As I said, nothing happened but if it did the dog would be dead.. No if and or buts. Volts raises a valid concern when he mentions dogs biting children who don't know how to act in front of animals. Owners are often times ignorant about animal behaviour and can't handle their dog.

Rights are for people, and not animals. As tragic as the death of the animal would have been in my situation (should the worst have ever happened), it would be the last child he ever bit.

voltz
09-02-12, 23:41
Rights are for people, and not animals. As tragic as the death of the animal would have been in my situation (should the worst have ever happened), it would be the last child he ever bit.

That's exactly how my feelings are on this matter. If I had a kid who just recently got mauled, I don't care what prayer that god or whatever peta lover had for that animal. It just signed it's death warrant, end of story.

and I'll highlight this again just so we're clear on the subject.

Rights are for people, and not animals.

Mad Tony
09-02-12, 23:43
Think about hunters, think about scientists who test on animals, think about the people who abuse animalsWhy are you comparing people who use animals for food/science to people who kill animals for the sake of it?

xXhayleyroxXx
09-02-12, 23:50
Well there is such a thing as being "too supportive", for example *coughPETAcough*.

Everyone knows PETA aren't an animals rights organisation :p They're evil.

larafan25
09-02-12, 23:51
Why are you comparing people who use animals for food/science to people who kill animals for the sake of it?

Some hunters just kill animals for sport.

IE. the sake of it.

voltz
09-02-12, 23:52
Everyone knows PETA aren't an animals rights organisation :p They're evil.

You know how they think everyone uses them as a scapegoat?

Well guess what, they are the goat.

knightgames
10-02-12, 00:02
You know how they think everyone uses them as a scapegoat?

Well guess what, they are the goat.

Oh, that was Ba-aa-aaaaad

Greenapple968
10-02-12, 00:09
Why are you comparing people who use animals for food/science to people who kill animals for the sake of it?

Because animal testing and hunting are both completely and utterly wrong. Animal testing is obviously more wrong; putting innocent animals through the most agonising pain for our selfish benefit, animals have done nothing to deserve it. If animals are going to be killed for attacking people then anybody who abuses animals should also be killed.

Animals are atleast equal to humans and they deserve atleast equal rights. If we can't realise this then humanity has failed. Rather than worry about protecting children from animals, why don't we worry about protecting children from dangerous people? Alonso Lopez raped and murdered over 300 girls, most of which were aged between 9-12. He described himself as the man of the centuary afterwards.

Rai
10-02-12, 00:11
That didn't exactly look like a vicious attack or even that much of a bite, but a warning - the dog was nervous and in a strange situation. The woman didn't 'deserve' to be bitten (or rather nipped), but she shouldn't have put her face right up close to a strange dog either. The dog was being perfectly fine right up until that moment.

And I'd like to know how a dog is supposed to know how to deal with or show concern for others' health or what the consequences would be. :confused:.

larafan25
10-02-12, 00:23
Get too close to anyone's face and they might bite, but it's still wise to play it safe and not get too cuddly.

I was once giving my cat a belly rub, got a little too into it and pushed my face in his stomach only to have him grab my head and it didn't seem like he'd ever let go. :/

igonge
10-02-12, 00:52
If she was getting her face all up in my business and had her hands all over my mouth and I didn't know who she was I'd bite her face off too.

voltz
10-02-12, 01:06
If she was getting her face all up in my business and had her hands all over my mouth and I didn't know who she was I'd bite her face off too.

And possibly get shot as a result, but that thought process never comes to mind since you're nothing more then an instinct driven animal.

I know, shallow comment is shallow.

knightgames
10-02-12, 01:54
Because animal testing and hunting are both completely and utterly wrong. Animal testing is obviously more wrong; putting innocent animals through the most agonising pain for our selfish benefit, animals have done nothing to deserve it. If animals are going to be killed for attacking people then anybody who abuses animals should also be killed.

Animals are atleast equal to humans and they deserve atleast equal rights. If we can't realise this then humanity has failed. Rather than worry about protecting children from animals, why don't we worry about protecting children from dangerous people? Alonso Lopez raped and murdered over 300 girls, most of which were aged between 9-12. He described himself as the man of the centuary afterwards.

Because one IS exclusive of the other. Your talking apples and oranges. Rights for animals as far as medical testing and hunting for sport is one thing, while protecting humans from animal attacks is another. Animal rights as far as testing doesn't even belong in the conversation.

The OP posted a video of a dog nipping at some interviewer's face, and you're bringing in animal testing. The one has nothing to do with the other. In that instance it was just as much the interviewers fault as it was the dog handlers. They should know better..


As far as mentioning some serial rapist as if it has something to do with the topic.. If that's the case, do you know in India they kill females because of dowery rights? They have outlawed testing for the sex of a feotus, and the parent will kill the newborn because the baby is a girl. It is incumbant upon the parent of a female to offer a dowery to the husband - many either can't afford the dowery or refuse to pay it. To relieve them selves of the dowery they kill the infant.. Talk about rights! We can play this and not get anywhere


I don't believe animals have the same rights as humans... That doesn't mean I approve of abuse.. If humans are in danger from domesticated animals that can't 'behave' in a human environment I'll side with humanity....... every time



EDIT: After re-reading this I hope I'm not coming off as a jerk I'm just trying to keep it the posts on the original topic without any unnecessary detours.

Larapink
10-02-12, 01:59
That dog is viscous, it maybe a warning but still! :eek:

I'm afraid I only like small dogs, huge dogs scare me -- I just remembered a horrible experience when I was 12 I was chased by a dog that wanted to attack me.. but the owner stopped it.. frightening experience. :(

patriots88888
10-02-12, 02:57
It raises an interesting topic as to whether certain animals should be pets. I don't believe all dogs have a natural domesticated quality to them... but my opinion is more than welcome to be open for discussion/debate.

Lukass
10-02-12, 05:29
I must agree with those who say it was the woman's mistake. Of course it was. The dog was being stressed in unknown environment, there certainly were some unknown people also, cameras etc. She deserved it. She shouldn't have put her face so close to the dog's face.

knightgames
10-02-12, 05:43
Deserved it? Really? You mean to say that because she felt the dog was friendly enough to be cuddled she deserved to be bitten? I admit it wasn't the smartest move, but the dog handlers gave her no warning about being cautous around the dog. Up until that moment the dog seemed pretty calm.

It was an accident. Most humans are ignorant about animal behaviour and couldn't pick out the difference between a warning growll from a groan because of indigestion.

Does THAT animal deserve a punishment? No. Rationally it makes sense that he was under stress from the surroundings. The woman did a foolish thing.... an accidental thing.

But she deserved it? Really?

Rosaly
10-02-12, 06:25
I don't get what the point of this thread is... if you're trying to make dogs look bad, the presenter put her face right next to the dog's, which is a big no-no unless the dog knows you and is comfortable. From the video we can't know the dog's past and how its been treated and why it acted like this, but biting is a response to being scared :/

agreed :)

Draco
10-02-12, 08:46
That's exactly how my feelings are on this matter. If I had a kid who just recently got mauled, I don't care what prayer that god or whatever peta lover had for that animal. It just signed it's death warrant, end of story.

and I'll highlight this again just so we're clear on the subject.

Just so you know, it is your responsibility to teach your kids how not to get bit by your average pet. Just as much as it is a pet owners responsibility to teach their pet not to be aggressive unnecessarily.

I've had perfectly mild mannered dogs bite kids that wouldn't listen and kept harassing them. Well they listen now. The first reaction for a parent is rage, but it is typically misdirected toward the animal when it should be directed at themselves. Most parents get it in their head that they only have to teach their children what they want their children to know... which is the biggest mistake any parent will ever make when rearing a child.

It's about respect, respect what an animal can do to you... and the animal should do the same. The vast majority of human/animal meetings that turn violent are because the human element doesn't understand the animal element.

Lavinder
10-02-12, 08:49
Dogs are pack animals, they trust their family and are very wary of outsiders - I believe ANY dog should be approached cautiously when you're an outsider.

It should be the persons responsibility not to get too close to the dog, and the owners responsibility to keep the dog restrained. There's no need to leave a dog loose - and there is no need to leave a child unattended.

I believe that if someone is going to leave their dog loose and it attacks someone then the dogs behaviour should be assessed by a professional and if it has been brought up to be violent then the dog should be put down as it is a risk to anyone who owns it later on, and the owner should be banned from owning pets.

knightgames
10-02-12, 09:29
Just so you know, it is your responsibility to teach your kids how not to get bit by your average pet. Just as much as it is a pet owners responsibility to teach their pet not to be aggressive unnecessarily.

I've had perfectly mild mannered dogs bite kids that wouldn't listen and kept harassing them. Well they listen now. The first reaction for a parent is rage, but it is typically misdirected toward the animal when it should be directed at themselves. Most parents get it in their head that they only have to teach their children what they want their children to know... which is the biggest mistake any parent will ever make when rearing a child.

It's about respect, respect what an animal can do to you... and the animal should do the same. The vast majority of human/animal meetings that turn violent are because the human element doesn't understand the animal element.

I agree it's a parental responsibilty to teach children about animals and their unpredictability, but I can't abide a pet (no matter who's responsible - barring animal abuse or teasing) attacking a child. I'd have no problem shooting the dog myself...... especially if it's had more than one bite.

The niece I mentioned has a neighbourhood dog (her neighbour, not mine) who has bitten several kids in her block. The owners let the dog wander around and it's pack-protective-dominant mentality takes over. It's cornered several adults in their car... yet nothing is done. I found out months after the fact that this dog has done that to my niece and sister.

I've had words with the owner and he knows I'll kill the thing if it bites me or my family. I don't go on his property. I don't intimidate or bother the dog. His response is - "That's what insurance is for."




Regarding leaving children unattended? That's not always practical. A parent could have their child unattended outside and a neighbourhood dog could come along..... Why should one change their behaviour to accomodate a dog or terrible pet owner? The children have a right to play out doors unfettered by potential dog bites and attacks.

I'll say it again. Animals don't have rights. I don't support abuse (I loathe it), but when in society, animals clearly don't have rights.

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 09:36
Because animal testing and hunting are both completely and utterly wrong. Animal testing is obviously more wrong; putting innocent animals through the most agonising pain for our selfish benefit, animals have done nothing to deserve it. If animals are going to be killed for attacking people then anybody who abuses animals should also be killed.

Animals are atleast equal to humans and they deserve atleast equal rights. If we can't realise this then humanity has failed. Rather than worry about protecting children from animals, why don't we worry about protecting children from dangerous people? Alonso Lopez raped and murdered over 300 girls, most of which were aged between 9-12. He described himself as the man of the centuary afterwards.Animal testing is obviously more wrong? Are you kidding me? While I have nothing against hunting myself, I can understand the objections to it. Likewise with animal testing I guess, but while the former is a sport the latter can often save lives.

Wait, you think anybody who abuses animals should be killed? That's ****ing insane.

No, animals are not at least equal to humans. They do not deserve equal rights. Of course this doesn't mean they should be abused either.

We do worry about protecting children from dangerous people, if you hadn't noticed.

Lukass
10-02-12, 09:41
No, animals are not at least equal to humans. They do not deserve equal rights.

Well, EXCUSE ME???

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 09:44
Well, EXCUSE ME???Is there a problem? I never said animals didn't deserve certain rights.

Lukass
10-02-12, 09:46
Is there a problem? I never said animals didn't deserve certain rights.

Every living creature with feelings should have the same rights as human. Period.

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 09:49
Every living creature with feelings should have the same rights as human. Period.Most rights aren't even be applicable animals, even if you wanted them to be.

Why on Earth should every single living thing have the same rights as a human?

Lukass
10-02-12, 09:51
Most rights aren't even be applicable animals, even if you wanted them to be.

Why on Earth should every single living thing have the same rights as a human?

And why not? :confused: Give me one proper reason.

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 09:53
And why not? :confused: Give me one proper reason.I just did in that very post you quoted.

Reggie
10-02-12, 09:59
Most rights aren't even be applicable animals, even if you wanted them to be.

Why on Earth should every single living thing have the same rights as a human?
This is logically sound.


Why, on the other hand, do human beings get prosecuted if they engage in similar conduct? Why is it brutal, barbaric – and should be criminal – to kill children for fun, profit or even survival? The reason is that human beings are fundamentally different from their animal kin in the wild. They have the capacity to make choices, they possess free will and have the responsibility to act ethically and respect the rights of other human beings. Why? So these others can carry out their morality responsibilities on their own initiative. Human beings, in short, are free and morally responsible. And it is this fact that gives rise to their having basic rights that others ought to respect and they may protect with force and law. These rights carve out a kind of fence – or sphere of personal authority – around persons, something they all require in order to carry on in a dignified manner when in one another’s company.

There are many ways human beings can be guilty of mistreating animals. Perhaps even the law should make some provisions to ensure that wanton torture and mistreatment of animals are minimized. But this is not because animals have rights, which they cannot have given their nature as instinctually driven beasts instead of moral agents. Talking, therefore, about animal rights is a confusion and misguides our thinking about our proper relationship with the rest of the animal world.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/machan6.html


In short, this is about human responsibility to animals for which you can carry out a constructive and logical discussion about our behaviour towards them. The same cannot be said for the idea of animal rights.

Ikas90
10-02-12, 10:00
In my opinion, animals are not at least equal to humans. They do not deserve equal rights.

Fixed.

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 10:03
Oh come on, animals are not equal to humans. That's a fact.

Lukass
10-02-12, 10:06
Oh come on, animals are not equal to humans. That's a fact.

That's your and only your opinion.

Ikas90
10-02-12, 10:07
Oh come on, animals are not equal to humans. That's a fact.

No offence, but that's not for you to decide. You're not qualified enough as a human being to determine the value of any living creature.

Lukass
10-02-12, 10:10
No offence, but that's not for you to decide. You're not qualified enough as a human being to determine the value of any living creature.

:tmb:

Reggie
10-02-12, 10:11
^Charge me for murder then because I'm guilty of the 'manslaughter' of countless ants as I walk along the road in summer. Don't forget the flies and spiders I've killed to avoid my home being infested with them and let's not even go there with the meat I consume.

There is a sound logical basis behind the opinion that humans and animals are different and saying Ben isn't qualified as a human being to make a call. That's getting rather personal. Its valid, even if you don't like it.

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 10:13
No offence, but that's not for you to decide. You're not qualified enough as a human being to determine the value of any living creature.And you are?

Setting aside this whole issue of rights for a moment, humans and animals aren't equal. As a species we're far more complex and capable of so many more things than they are.

knightgames
10-02-12, 10:13
That's your and only your opinion.

Mine too. Animals and humans are not equal. I don't know why you're getting bent out of shape over it. No one is suggesting abuse or mistreatment. To not treat animals with compassion would be inhuman.

To me, when it comes to safety, animals will always take a back seat. They aren't equals because, as Reggie pointed out, they do not have the same mental capacity as humans.

digitizedboy
10-02-12, 10:21
^ You say they don't have the same mental capacity but I found this program interesting however.

zJAH4ZJBiN8

Greenapple968
10-02-12, 10:26
Animal testing is obviously more wrong? Are you kidding me? While I have nothing against hunting myself, I can understand the objections to it. Likewise with animal testing I guess, but while the former is a sport the latter can often save lives.

Wait, you think anybody who abuses animals should be killed? That's ****ing insane.

No, animals are not at least equal to humans. They do not deserve equal rights. Of course this doesn't mean they should be abused either.

We do worry about protecting children from dangerous people, if you hadn't noticed.

Oh come on, animals are not equal to humans. That's a fact.

You see, you're doing what you do best at: embarressing yourself by coming out with arrogant, selfish and bigoted nonsense which really does not stand. Every creature of God has equal rights, if dogs are going to be killed for biting someone then any human who abuses animals should be delt with the same way. I've already pointed out how humans are more evil than animals and how animals are above us in certain circumstances. Like already mentioned, hunting, animal testing and animal abuse should all be stopped immediatly.

If you can't accept this then you're what's wrong with society.

Lukass
10-02-12, 10:29
You see, you're doing what you do best at: embarressing yourself by coming out with arrogant, selfish and bigoted nonsense which really does not stand. Every creature of God has equal rights, if dogs are going to be killed for biting someone then any human who abuses animals should be delt with the same way. I've already pointed out how humans are more evil than animals and how animals are above us. Like already mentioned, hunting, animal testing and animal abuse should all be stopped immediatly.

If you can't accept this then you're what's wrong with society.

Bless you!

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 10:32
Every creature of God has equal rights

I've already pointed out how humans are more evil than animals and how animals are above us.Nice hypocrisy there...

So I'm selfish, arrogant and bigoted because I accept that humans and animals are not equal?

Oh, and please explain to me how "every creature of God" has equal rights.

Lukass
10-02-12, 10:34
Nice hypocrisy there...

So I'm selfish, arrogant and bigoted because I accept that humans and animals are not equal?

Oh, and please explain to me how "every creature of God" has equal rights.

Have you ever seen videos of the fur farms, slaughterhouses etc.?

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 10:34
Have you ever seen videos of the fur farms, slaughterhouses etc.?What relevance does that have to what I was saying? :confused:

Lukass
10-02-12, 10:35
What relevance does that have to what I was saying? :confused:

Answer me please. Have you ever seen them or not?

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 10:36
Answer me please. Have you ever seen them or not?Yes, can you please answer my question now?

jarekhanzelka
10-02-12, 10:37
I've been to a slaughterhouse personally. 'Twas magical.

Anyway, I too can't see how are humans and, say, turtles equal. O.o

Reggie
10-02-12, 10:37
He's right it doesn't have any relevence.

This debate is going off the rails fast.

Ikas90
10-02-12, 10:39
^Charge me for murder then because I'm guilty of the 'manslaughter' of countless ants as I walk along the road in summer. Don't forget the flies and spiders and let's not even go there with the meat I consume.

...and saying Ben isn't qualified as a human being to make a call. That's getting rather personal.

No, it isn't. My statement does not only apply to Ben, it applies to humanity as a whole. There is not one human being on this earth who has the right to decide the value of anything in existence. We are lucky to be alive, here, on this planet, and we should be grateful that we had that chance to live. It is not important to decide who is superior and who isn't. That expresses arrogance.

As for the spiders that you kill, it is perfectly normal to do so if you consider that spider to be a threat to your environment, and you wouldn't be wrong in neutralising that threat. That's natural instinct. By defending ourselves, we're not expressing any sense of value on the creature that we kill; we're doing what we have in common with every creature in the world; defending ourselves, surviving.

@Mad Tony: That doesn't mean anything. You're missing the point of intrinsic value. Just because we're capable of doing more, does not mean we are superior as bodies of consciousness. I'm not saying animals or humans have different value; just that the value is not for me to decide.

Greenapple968
10-02-12, 10:40
Nice hypocrisy there...

So I'm selfish, arrogant and bigoted because I accept that humans and animals are not equal?

Oh, and please explain to me how "every creature of God" has equal rights.

It seems I forgot to add the: “animals are above us... in certain circumstances.” No worries it's been edited.

Well Mad Tony, Ben, silly little boy, whatever people call you, I could continue to try and knock some sense into you but it's friday morning, and I have places to be.

I'll return later when my computer's working. Maybe then you can embarress yourself some more. :tmb:

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 10:43
It seems I forgot to add the: “animals are above us... in certain circumstances.” No worries it's been edited.

Well Mad Tony, Ben, silly little boy, whatever people call you, I could continue to try and knock some sense into you but it's friday morning, and I have places to be.

I'll return later when my computer's working. Maybe then you can embarress yourself some more. :tmb:You haven't answered any of my questions. Surely if "all creatures under God" are equal then that means nobody is above anyone ever?

So you're resorting to insults because you don't agree with me?

Ikas90
10-02-12, 10:46
Surely if "all creatures under God" are equal then that means nobody is above anyone ever?

Does somebody really have to be above someone? Why do you make that principle so important? Why is it necessary for something to be higher than another thing?

knightgames
10-02-12, 10:48
Pray tell, Green Apples and Lukass, how is it you believe animals are equal to humans? Saying it doesn't make it so, and so far that's all you've done. Mankind's ability to do evil and an animals inability to do evil only shows they don't have the mental capacity to do such things with any mental cognition. no ability to to chose or arrange such actions..


I get that you like animals. They are our pets, and companions. Them being butchered doesn't make them any more or less superior....... nor does man's propensity to do such acts make man any less superior.

We SHOULD be disgusted at animal abuse. But that doesn't affect an animals standing in society or creation. And since you brought up creation, God himself said man is to have dominion. To have dominion qualifies a level of superiority.

jarekhanzelka
10-02-12, 10:50
It seems I forgot to add the: “animals are above us... in certain circumstances.” No worries it's been edited.

Well Mad Tony, Ben, silly little boy, whatever people call you, I could continue to try and knock some sense into you but it's friday morning, and I have places to be.

I'll return later when my computer's working. Maybe then you can embarress yourself some more. :tmb:

I honestly don't think it's Mad Tony who's embarrassing himself here. This extreme intolerance towards opinions different from yours, and your inability to directly answer simple questions, are rather annoying.

knightgames
10-02-12, 10:58
^ You say they don't have the same mental capacity but I found this program interesting however.

zJAH4ZJBiN8

That's a cool video, digitizedboy. I've seen one where apes could figure out spacial puzzles. In one, an ape was shown a model of a room and a miniature banana was hidden in the room. Next, the ape was directed to go into the adjacent room (which the model was a copy of) and the ape found the real banana based upon where it was in the model room.

I think the clip said most children don't start grasping that until ~ the age of three.

trfanX34
10-02-12, 11:01
That animals deserve different rights is an obvious fact, I can't see how that could be discussed. Let's give my dog the right to the internet, shall we? I don't see how he would use it.

Sgt BOMBULOUS
10-02-12, 11:24
My cousin Shawn (http://dogsareeasy.com/), a professional dog trainer had these comments:

Thats right, just keep over-stimulating that dog and then push harder so he can back you off. Dumb ass reporter, with the video to prove it. The owner and the reporter are both at fault here. This is why I tell people "no" when it comes to touching any dog I am working with.

Hard to argue with him...

Dennis's Mom
10-02-12, 11:48
Congratulations all of you who have once again enable Mad Tony to de-rail an animal thread into his favorite pastime of derailing any and all animal threads into a Tony vs. Everyone Else discussion of whether Humans are Better than Animals.

Tony, rather than drag other's threads off-topic, why not start your own to discuss this idea that's so near and dear to your heart?

Please get back on topic and discuss an animal biting a news anchor on TV.

Reggie
10-02-12, 12:03
^He didn't de-rail it. The tangent this discussion went on wasn't even started by him.

And let's not have yet another 'general' thread on animal rights please.

The news anchor was irresponsible - which ties in with my stance on human responsibility as opposed to the animal's freedoms. Its only natural the discussion went on to discuss the rationale of the animal.

Mad Tony
10-02-12, 12:19
Does somebody really have to be above someone? Why do you make that principle so important? Why is it necessary for something to be higher than another thing?I never said anybody had to be higher, I was merely pointing out the contradiction in his statement.

Congratulations all of you who have once again enable Mad Tony to de-rail an animal thread into his favorite pastime of derailing any and all animal threads into a Tony vs. Everyone Else discussion of whether Humans are Better than Animals.

Tony, rather than drag other's threads off-topic, why not start your own to discuss this idea that's so near and dear to your heart?

Please get back on topic and discuss an animal biting a news anchor on TV.Aren't mods supposed to be impartial? I really don't think it's fair to single me out and insult me like that. Yes we were off topic and for that I apologize, just don't try and pretend it's somehow all my doing.

I don't know what your beef is with me. To be honest I don't care. Rather than openly single me out on here, why not do it via PM?

Sir Croft
10-02-12, 12:34
I don't think it's prudent to get your face that close to a dog you know nothing about. She got lucky it only wanted to warn her, if it really wanted to bite her, the damage would be far more serious.

ajrich17901
10-02-12, 12:38
I don't think it's prudent to get your face that close to a dog you know nothing about. She got lucky it only wanted to warn her, if it really wanted to bite her, the damage would be far more serious.
:tmb:
Anyone stupid enough to put their face to a dogs face deserves to be bitten out of pure stupidity.

Sgt BOMBULOUS
10-02-12, 12:51
Congratulations all of you who have once again enable Mad Tony to de-rail an animal thread into his favorite pastime of derailing any and all animal threads into a Tony vs. Everyone Else discussion of whether Humans are Better than Animals.

Tony, rather than drag other's threads off-topic, why not start your own to discuss this idea that's so near and dear to your heart?

Please get back on topic and discuss an animal biting a news anchor on TV.

What about Ikas90's ubiquitous "human beings are worthless" argument, which also pops up in all similarly related threads? :p

Dennis's Mom
10-02-12, 13:05
Point taken. Start your own threads, guys, if you have a burning itch to get into a "yes, it is/no, it isn't" argument about something that none of you will budge an inch on.

I don't expect that to happen, though. For all this pops up virtually every time an animal is mentioned on TRF, no one has taken advantage of the "New Thread" button to actually start a thread about it, and that's because they don't want to discuss it; they just want to wait until someone says something that can be used to de-rail the discussion into "Human > Animals" (or vice-versa) or "TRFers only care about animals, not people."

xXhayleyroxXx
10-02-12, 16:56
zJAH4ZJBiN8

I watched that programme yesterday :D It was amazing :tmb:

But yeah, today in dog grooming the teacher even said "never put your face put to that a dog you don't know" -- for this reason. However, it wasn't a nasty bite, nor is the dog aggressive :p

Miharu
10-02-12, 17:07
:tmb:
Anyone stupid enough to put their face to a dogs face deserves to be bitten out of pure stupidity.

Hmmm. Think your being a bit harsh there, it was just a mistake made by the woman, obviously she's learned her lesson.

As for the dog, yeah he feeled threatened I don't think he was malicious, if he was then he wouldn't be put on the show.

And if someone's dog attacked my child, I'd try and sue the owner, not put the dog down ffs.

Greenapple968
10-02-12, 19:58
You haven't answered any of my questions. Surely if "all creatures under God" are equal then that means nobody is above anyone ever?



It's very easy to misunderstand me. I'm dislexic and sometimes I word stuff in a way where people read it incorrectly. The point I'm trying to make is that Voltz opened a thread which to me heavily suggests he's trying to give dogs/ animals a bad image. I then mentioned how the way humans treat animals is appalling, regarding animal testing and hunting. There are other things as well such as slaughter houses, dog racing, horse racing, this is all just dreadful in my opinion and must be stopped. We seem to think that animals are ours to eat, ours to experiment on, ours to use as entertainment, ours to kill for sport, ours to kill so we can use their fur as clothing. I can't stand the thought of this. Animals are very often our friends. Look at guide dogs and Police dogs for example and how they help us out. A lot of us treat animals like **** and we seem to fail to understand how they feel pain just like we do and testing on animals is no different to torturing people; you're putting living creatures through agony. The reason why I'm ranting on about all of this is because I don't see how humans could possibly have the moral high ground over animals when you consider the pain we put them through, how we kill them recklessly and completely misuse their existence.

Responding to your question, I said they're equal because I believe they are. Sometimes humans are superior; they're more intelligent and able to do a lot of things animals can't such as use machinery and do artistic things. But in some circumstances animals are superior; they are more alert, have stronger senses and are more independant. Some animals are blind but are able to find their way around because their other senses are heightened. Some are deaf but can recognise sound due to their ability to sense vibration. Some animals have fantastic eyes; birds can see the tiniest of objects from miles away. Dogs have fantastic noses; I love watching the dogs on Dog Squad and how the airports use them to sniff drugs from people's luggage. I consider animals to be more independant; animals live in the wild, build their own homes, catch their own food, provide for their young ones by capturing the food for them. Humans have to use machinery to build their homes, and only a selected few can manage that. Humans have to depend on external things like technology, money, jobs etc. Animals are able to fend for themselves and don't need anything external to survive; I remember watching a lovely programme about how cheetahs and various other animals survive in the wild. Animals are quite possibly stronger as well; they breed in large quantities and don't seem to be in too much pain from it. A lot of human females die from the agony of giving birth, and that's with medication to aid the pain.

I heavily believe animals are nicer to humans. I'm aware animals attack one another but they usually do it because they have to; survival insticts etc. But humans, a lot of them abuse one another just for spite and plessure. I'm not suggesting all humans are evil scum, that's just stupid, but a lot of humans are.



In India they kill females because of dowery rights? They have outlawed testing for the sex of a feotus, and the parent will kill the newborn because the baby is a girl. It is incumbant upon the parent of a female to offer a dowery to the husband - many either can't afford the dowery or refuse to pay it. To relieve them selves of the dowery they kill the infant.

^ Sort of demonstrates my point of humans not being overly nice.
I don't particully want to discuss this with you anymore. We both have separate opinions and you need to learn to respect that. Too much to ask?

Aphrodite22
10-02-12, 20:53
^ you say they don't have the same mental capacity but i found this program interesting however.

zjah4zjbin8

amazing!! Wooohoo planet of the apes is coming!

Draco
10-02-12, 22:38
I agree it's a parental responsibilty to teach children about animals and their unpredictability, but I can't abide a pet (no matter who's responsible - barring animal abuse or teasing) attacking a child. I'd have no problem shooting the dog myself...... especially if it's had more than one bite.

If it was more than one bite, then the animal is usually at fault, the first bite is typically much less severe and only serves as a warning.

The niece I mentioned has a neighbourhood dog (her neighbour, not mine) who has bitten several kids in her block. The owners let the dog wander around and it's pack-protective-dominant mentality takes over. It's cornered several adults in their car... yet nothing is done. I found out months after the fact that this dog has done that to my niece and sister.

I've had words with the owner and he knows I'll kill the thing if it bites me or my family. I don't go on his property. I don't intimidate or bother the dog. His response is - "That's what insurance is for."

Completely different scenario, in a situation like that you simply call animal control or deal with it yourself. No dog corners me in my car, you can bet on that lol.

knightgames
11-02-12, 02:28
^ Sort of demonstrates my point of humans not being overly nice.
I don't particully want to discuss this with you anymore. We both have separate opinions and you need to learn to respect that. Too much to ask?



There was no discussion. This is the first time you replied to me. A discussion is a going back and forth of ideas. Up until the portion of your post I removed for brevity, you never voiced why you felt the way you did except to say humans were evil and animals aren't, which makes them superior.

But have it your way.

Greenapple968
11-02-12, 11:01
There was no discussion. This is the first time you replied to me. A discussion is a going back and forth of ideas. Up until the portion of your post I removed for brevity, you never voiced why you felt the way you did except to say humans were evil and animals aren't, which makes them superior.

But have it your way.

You obviously failed to realise that what I said was aimed at Mad Tony. I didn't just mention that some humans are evil, I also mentioned ways in which animals can be superior, regarding senses, indepandance and how alert they are. Animals are ofcourse nicer to humans and don't destroy the environment.

At the end of the day you're not going to convince me that humans are superior anymore than you're going to convince me the sky is pink. I know humans aren't superior and if you want to live in some magical wonderland believing they are then feel free. If people are too blind and ignorant to accept the simple truth then I simply can't be bothered with them.

This thread is pointless, lock it.

Humans aren't superior, they're simply a reckless failure of what God intended and humans are quite simply an insult to other species.

Mad Tony
11-02-12, 11:15
It's very easy to misunderstand me. I'm dislexic and sometimes I word stuff in a way where people read it incorrectly. The point I'm trying to make is that Voltz opened a thread which to me heavily suggests he's trying to give dogs/ animals a bad image. I then mentioned how the way humans treat animals is appalling, regarding animal testing and hunting. There are other things as well such as slaughter houses, dog racing, horse racing, this is all just dreadful in my opinion and must be stopped. We seem to think that animals are ours to eat, ours to experiment on, ours to use as entertainment, ours to kill for sport, ours to kill so we can use their fur as clothing. I can't stand the thought of this. Animals are very often our friends. Look at guide dogs and Police dogs for example and how they help us out. A lot of us treat animals like **** and we seem to fail to understand how they feel pain just like we do and testing on animals is no different to torturing people; you're putting living creatures through agony. The reason why I'm ranting on about all of this is because I don't see how humans could possibly have the moral high ground over animals when you consider the pain we put them through, how we kill them recklessly and completely misuse their existence.Even after you clarified (animals are apparently now only higher than humans some of the time), you still contradicted yourself. Don't try and use your alleged dyslexia as an excuse for your hypocrisy.

As for your actual point, in some cases (usually for tribes of people who live out in the middle of nowhere) hunting animals for food and fur are absolutely essential. That's survival.

As for the rest? I guess I can understand your objections although I don't agree with them. Animal testing for example can save lives and doesn't amount to torture.

Responding to your question, I said they're equal because I believe they are. Sometimes humans are superior; they're more intelligent and able to do a lot of things animals can't such as use machinery and do artistic things. But in some circumstances animals are superior; they are more alert, have stronger senses and are more dependant. Some animals are blind but are able to find their way around because their other senses are heightened. Some are deaf but can recognise sound due to their ability to sense vibration. Some animals have fantastic eyes; birds can see the tiniest of objects from miles away. Dogs have fantastic noses; I love watching the dogs on Dog Squad and how the airports use them to sniff drugs from people's luggage. I consider animals to be more dependant; animals live in the wild, build their own homes, catch their own food, provide for their young ones by capturing the food for them. Humans have to use machinery to build their homes, and only a selected few can manage that. Humans have to depend on external things like technology, money, jobs etc. Animals are able to fend for themselves and don't need anything external to survive; I remember watching a lovely programme about how cheetahs and various other animals survive in the wild. Animals are quite possibly stronger as well; they breed in large quantities and don't seem to be in too much pain from it. A lot of human females die from the agony of giving birth, and that's with medication to aid the pain.This is true (mostly), although I think you're underestimating the ability of some humans to survive without technology/senses. There are plenty of blind people for example who are able to live relatively normal lives because the rest of their senses are heightened.

I don't really see how animals being better are some things makes them equal to us though.

I heavily believe animals are nicer to humans. I'm aware animals attack one another but they usually do it because they have to; survival insticts etc. But humans, a lot of them abuse one another just for spite and plessure. I'm not suggesting all humans are evil scum, that's just stupid, but a lot of humans are.You can't apply human moral inventions (things like being nice) to animals. As you correctly pointed out with animals it's all about survival. They don't have the mental capacity to do things out of spite or niceness.

I think your problem is that like most extreme animal rights supporters you only look at the negative aspects of humanity while ignoring the positives.
You obviously failed to realise that what I said was aimed at Mad Tony. I didn't just mention that some humans are evil, I also mentioned ways in which animals can be superior, regarding senses, depandance and how alert they are. Animals are ofcourse nicer to humans and don't destroy the environment.

At the end of the day you're not going to convince me that humans are superior anymore than you're going to convince me the sky is pink. I know humans aren't superior and if you want to live in some magical wonderland believing they are then feel free. If people are too blind and ignorant to accept the simple truth then I simply can't be bothered with them.

This thread is pointless, lock it.

Humans aren't superior, they're simply a reckless failure of what God intended and humans are quite simply an insult to other species.Didn't you try and lecture someone a couple of pages back about respecting the opinions of others?

knightgames
11-02-12, 23:02
You obviously failed to realise that what I said was aimed at Mad Tony. I didn't just mention that some humans are evil, I also mentioned ways in which animals can be superior, regarding senses, indepandance and how alert they are. Animals are ofcourse nicer to humans and don't destroy the environment.

At the end of the day you're not going to convince me that humans are superior anymore than you're going to convince me the sky is pink. I know humans aren't superior and if you want to live in some magical wonderland believing they are then feel free. If people are too blind and ignorant to accept the simple truth then I simply can't be bothered with them.

This thread is pointless, lock it.

Humans aren't superior, they're simply a reckless failure of what God intended and humans are quite simply an insult to other species.

I feel sorry that through the termoil you can't see the good in humanity. I know it's hard in a world where the negative is capitalized and the good is ushered under the rug as if it was something dirty. That said, I'm sorry I misunderstood you, and didn't realize the comment was aimed at Tony.

Animals are wonderful beings that enrich our lives. We do owe it to them as people who have dominion over them to treat all animals creation with respect, and kindness. I think we both can agree to that last part. I'd never suggest cruelty or abuse.