PDA

View Full Version : Is Chivalry Dead?


Catapharact
16-10-05, 15:12
Looks like the world is in decline of Knights in Shining Armor LOL! Or are they...? ;)

http://www.kstatecollegian.com/articles/1076997600/view/021704.chivalry.jpg


Changing gender roles might render old ways of dating useless.
Published on Tuesday, February 17, 2004
Illustration by Jordan Mizell


Lacey Storer
Kansas State Collegian


When it comes to relationships, many girls love a guy who does romantic things for them. They want a guy who will open the door for them, leave them sweet notes and buy them flowers "just because." A guy who's thoughtful, respectful and downright chivalrous.

"Girls want a guy who does nice things for them, because it makes them feel cared for and loved," Sarah Bloch, junior in secondary education, said. "I think all girls want that, because it shows that they are respected and cared for."

The practice of chivalry began in the Middle Ages, when it was set as a moral code for the knights. Expected to be generous, loyal, courteous and gallant to the ladies, the knights set a standard for gentlemanly behavior that carried into modern times.

But as the role of men and women in relationships has become more equal, chivalry might become a thing of the past.

Tony Jurich, professor of marriage and family therapy, said as women have come to rely on men less over the years, the role of chivalry in relationships has been questioned.

"As we start to get into a more egalitarian society where physical brute strength from men is less needed, it comes into question if chivalry is needed," Jurich said. "Chivalry is not dead, it's just dormant."

Others agree chivalry hasn't died, but say it's now evolved to include women in the equation.

"I don't think it's necessarily dead," Jennifer Weisner, sophomore in business, said. "I think the difference is that now girls are starting to do things back to the guys. It hasn't ended, it's just kind of being altered."

Where men were once seen as the sole protector and provider in a relationship, women have taken a more equal role. While they still appreciate thoughtful gestures, women are willing to return the favor.

This kind of independence could have a negative effect of chivalry. Men who want to be romantic and chivalrous may be intimidated by a woman's independence and afraid of offending them.

Paul Morizzo, senior in marketing, said women wanting to be equal can send a discouraging message about being chivalrous.

"Women are fighting to be equal, so we treat them like equals," Morizzo said. "We treat them like we treat guys — nice, but not overly nice."

Gretchen Ekart, manager of Harry's Uptown, said the ratio of chivalrous to non-chivalrous men she sees in the restaurant is 50-50. She agreed that female independence could play a role in whether or not a guy is chivalrous.

"I think it depends on the guy," Ekart said. "There are some out there who are so worried about offending the lady that they don't do it, and there are some out there who are just romantics at heart."

Worries about scaring off a girl with too much chivalry also might prevent guys from performing such gestures.

"Sometimes it seems like girls are overwhelmed with the stuff," Jeff Curry, junior in marketing, said. "If you do too much, they're like, 'Hey, I don't need all this.'"

Weisner said when it comes to chivalry, there is a fine line between enough and too much.

"I look for a guy that's courteous and chivalrous, but not to the point where I feel I can't reciprocate, or it makes me feel inferior to him."

Independent women or not, some feel chivalry is simply no more.

"I think it died back in the day of the knights," Morizzo said. "I don't think it exists anymore."

Mike Simmons, freshman in open-option, said he agreed, and that chivalry is something rarely seen.

"For guys in general, it's dead," Simmons said. "You don't see guys doing common courtesy things like opening doors for girls — stuff like that."

Some think chivalry is still alive, but to a lesser extent than previous times.

"I think guys still do nice things," Bloch said, "but I think it's on a lower scale than it was before."

Bloch said the decrease in chivalrous men could be attributed to how they were raised and taught to treat women. Simmons agreed, saying that it's not that guys don't want to be chivalrous, they just don't know how.

"They were never taught correctly," Simmons said. "It just died throughout the generations."

Karen Medlin, owner of Westloop Floral, said she think men still have chivalrous intentions and sees this in the men who come into her store.

"I think more guys want to be chivalrous. I think guys still want to be the hero or the protector," Medlin said. "I see a lot more than I used to of just for-no-reason-at-all," Medlin said.

It's these gestures that can reassure a person of her lover's affection and can make a relationship stronger.

"All too often, what I find in relationships is that we don't have the courtesy of treating the other person with care," Jurich said. "We love each other in the grand things and we forget the little things, and sometime those little things are very important."

Draco
16-10-05, 20:40
Chivalry isn't dead.

Just call me Sir Draco http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Mona Sax
16-10-05, 20:43
Originally posted by Draco:
Just call me Sir Draco http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Your luck that St George is dead. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Draco
16-10-05, 20:49
He never would have found me anyway http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Catapharact
17-10-05, 13:35
Originally posted by Draco:
Chivalry isn't dead.

Just call me Sir Draco http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif LOL! See ya on the jousting tornament http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif .

Celephais
17-10-05, 13:38
Medieval chivalry was just yesteryear's version of rock stars and groupies.

Catapharact
17-10-05, 13:48
LOL! True, but atleast there was some curtosy. I mean these days, manners seemed to have just disappeared. You don't have to go rescue damsels in distress; Just open the door for a lady.

Bloch said the decrease in chivalrous men could be attributed to how they were raised and taught to treat women. Simmons agreed, saying that it's not that guys don't want to be chivalrous, they just don't know how.

"They were never taught correctly," Simmons said. "It just died throughout the generations."

deepbluesea
17-10-05, 14:58
i seem to hold more doors open for men than they do for me even my fiancee doesn't know how.

Catapharact
17-10-05, 16:30
As mentioned in teh article:

Seems like women these days are getting to me more Chivilrious then men LOL! Well, a suit of armor will look better on a female anyway ;) :D LOL!

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 16:36
..it's not dead... it's in hiding... *tries to look convinced. And fails* Ok, it's dead. :( http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif

lorien elf
17-10-05, 16:43
Heh, I worry that it will fade into disrespect, you know? Like because a guy opens the door for me does not mean that I will be less independent. It seems like some guys here are just waiting for this sort of thing, like saying, "oh so you want to be equal, eh?" and then they send the women out into the battlefield, err, well something like that. I mean, females as soldiers is a cool thing, but I just think that some dont get it. lol, "chivalry" is kind of nice. Wish that more guys were so polite. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Celephais
17-10-05, 17:02
I like politeness. Bring back Edwardian times. Terribly polite they were you know. I'd like people to address me as "kind sir!" The only drawback is that I'd have to say things in return like "Oh think nothing of it old boy!"

http://ceejbot.com/EricPorter/Forsyte/episode_11/11.14.perfect-edwardian.jpg

Catapharact
17-10-05, 17:17
Real Life Laa:

It's hiding... Trust me ;) .

Limiel:

Oh there are still guys who know how to curtious for a change instead of big idotic Yonkers who generally just want to be pushy. Usually it's the inferiority complex that gets the better of them.

Celephais:

Well Kind sir, I do believe I didn't thank you for posting in my Humble thread. ;) . LOL!

Angel666
17-10-05, 18:03
Nah. It's dead. Unless you look like a model then it is merely on it's death bed.

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 18:06
Damn, and theres me thinking I had a shot... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif

Catapharact
17-10-05, 18:10
Man! We have a lot of dishearted females here.

Guys, did we go astray the path of good manners THAT far? LOL!

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 18:12
Yep. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

deepbluesea
17-10-05, 18:13
All the guys i've met seem to have forgotten what manners are for :(

Catapharact
17-10-05, 18:17
http://www.kristinsstudio.com/nevipublishing/quest2/Hand%20Kiss.jpg

On behalf of all guys that care to be curtious ;) .

[ 17. October 2005, 19:19: Message edited by: Catapharact ]

deepbluesea
17-10-05, 18:19
Thankyou kind sir

Nicky
17-10-05, 18:26
Catapharact, you are too chivalrous and kind to be true! Do you really exist? :confused:

:D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Catapharact
17-10-05, 18:32
LOL! No. I am an Incarnation of Sir Lancelot http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif LOL!!!!!

Well, I have manners ;) . I was raised that way. LOL! Maybe I am too nice for my own good. No wonder my mom thinks I am the closest thing to a daughter she has. (And Neteru... Don't laugh! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif )

[ 17. October 2005, 19:34: Message edited by: Catapharact ]

Angel666
17-10-05, 18:32
Thank you kind sir. I agree Nicky. I think he's a robot.

deepbluesea
17-10-05, 18:34
Originally posted by Angel666:
Thank you kind sir. I agree Nicky. I think he's a robot. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif he must be no man is like that these days

Catapharact
17-10-05, 18:40
LOL! Awww, come on Girls. Offcourse there are guys out there with manners http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . I guess they are just too scared to show them out in the open; Afraid they will supposably be not "manly" enough. *Sigh* such is the nature of human beings; too afraid of many things LOL!

Angel666
17-10-05, 18:58
LOL! Awww, come on Girls. Offcourse there are guys out there with manners I have yet to see any. Well there is one guy I know, but that's not enough to prove it. lol http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-2.gif

deepbluesea
17-10-05, 19:02
i agree with angel i don't know any i'm trying to train my fiancee but he's not having any of it. and i've not met any others

Catapharact
17-10-05, 19:12
http://www.kristinsstudio.com/nevipublishing/quest2/Menagerie%20Dance.jpg

Awwww, for shame that it had come down to this.

Where have all the good men gone
And where are all the gods?
Where’s the street-wise Hercules
To fight the rising odds?

Isn’t there a white knight upon a fiery steed?

deepbluesea
17-10-05, 19:15
i love that song thats it i need my hanky again

T.Onix
17-10-05, 19:33
I love chivalry, unfortunately, other people see a man with manners and they all say like "he's weak" "he's gay" blah blah blah.

Chilvary has nothing to do with those things.

You can be weak or strong and still be a true gentleman, you could be gay or straight and still be a gentleman. You could be a real tough macho man and be a gentleman. You could be all of the above and still be a (insert word here) http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/censored.gif

[ 17. October 2005, 20:34: Message edited by: T.Onyx ]

Angel666
17-10-05, 19:39
I love that song too. Did you draw those Catapharact? They are quite good.

Catapharact
17-10-05, 19:40
LOL! In agrrement with T. Onyx. Well by nature, two Zodiac signs are by far the most Chivilrious ;) ; Libra, and Taurus.

Libras:

Librans are sensitive to the needs of others and have the gift, sometimes to an almost psychic extent, of understanding the emotional needs of their companions and meeting them with their own innate optimism - they are the kind of people of whom it is said, "They always make you feel better for having been with them." They are very social human beings. They loathe cruelty, viciousness and vulgarity and detest conflict between people, so they do their best to cooperate and compromise with everyone around them, and their ideal for their own circle and for society as a whole is unity.

Their cast of mind is artistic rather than intellectual, though they are usually too moderate and well balanced to be avant garde in any artistic endeavor. They have good perception and observation and their critical ability, with which they are able to view their own efforts as well as those of others, gives their work integrity.

In their personal relationships they show understanding of the other person's point of view, trying to resolve any differences by compromise, and are often willing to allow claims against themselves to be settled to their own disadvantage rather than spoil a relationship. They like the opposite sex to the extent of promiscuity sometimes, and may indulge in romanticism bordering on sentimentality. Their marriages, however, stand a good chance of success because they are frequently the union of "true minds". The Libran's continuing kindness toward his or her partner mollifies any hurt the latter may feel if the two have had a tiff. Nor can the Libran's spouse often complain that he or she is not understood, for the Libran is usually the most empathetic of all the zodiacal types and the most ready to tolerate the beloved's failings.

(Awwww, I am so proud of my Sign :D LOL!)

Taurus:

They are faithful and generous friends with a great capacity for affection, but rarely make friends with anyone outside their social rank, to which they are ordinarily excessively faithful. In the main, they are gentle, even tempered, good natured, modest and slow to anger, disliking quarreling and avoiding ill-feeling. If they are provoked, however, they can explode into violent outbursts of ferocious anger in which they seem to lose all self-control. Equally unexpected are their occasional sallies into humor and exhibitions of fun.

Although their physical appearance may belie it, they have a strong aesthetic taste, enjoying art, for which they may have a talent, beauty (recoiling from anything sordid or ugly) and music. They may have a strong, sometimes unconventional, religious faith. Allied to their taste for all things beautiful is a love for the good things of life pleasure.

Catapharact
17-10-05, 19:43
Originally posted by Angel666:
I love that song too. Did you draw those Catapharact? They are quite good. Nah! Got em off a quick search ;) .

THIS however is MY creation LOL! Hence the avatar :D :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/Catapharact/Pair.jpg

Nicky
17-10-05, 19:45
Offcourse there are guys out there with mannersIn that case, they must be really well hidden http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Jacob x5
17-10-05, 19:45
Originally posted by Catapharact (post title):
Is Chivalry Dead?Yes, at least I really do hope so. So is sexual equality (so much for that idea)! All this 'shouldn't hit girls' rubbish.

Originally posted by deepbluesea:
i'm trying to train my fiancee but he's not having any of it.Sorry but I don't blame him. :D

[ 17. October 2005, 20:50: Message edited by: jacob jacob jacob jacob jacob ]

Catapharact
17-10-05, 19:52
Originally posted by Nicky:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Offcourse there are guys out there with mannersIn that case, they must be really well hidden http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Okkkkk. Well minus one bad apple (Refering to Jacob x 5), there are good guys and sometimes they just are too quiet ;) LOL! You already have seen FCY LOL! There is an Englander at the POP forums; a moderator as well. Goes by teh nickname Bitebug http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif LOL! Actually his name is Chris ;) . A real great guy http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif .

Angel666
17-10-05, 19:54
*shakes head at jacobx5's post*

Nice drawing Catapharact. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif Well since it is a nice day I am going to sit outside with a good book. TTFN! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

lorien elf
17-10-05, 19:56
wha?? hit girls? heh, I hate double standards but still, that seems so wrong to me. lol, if a girl were mean to a guy friend or brother of mine, I'd go attack her for him; he can't hit her. hehe. that's very nice of you Catapharact. you must be the only gentleman in your area, hehe. I think all mothers should raise their sons as have you been, so it seems. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif I know a couple of nice guys that I can think of but it doesnt change my general opinion of them. Im at university by the way....grr. but then, some guys can surprise you. I have a funny take on this, illustrated in a story: one day a guy opened a door for me but stepped out of the way to allow me to exit first, and a friend ( I suppose that's what he was) laughed at the guy who'd opened the door for me and kind of asked him why he'd done it, right in front of me, lol, I thought: "how rude, you jack***!" he could have kept it to himself at least. I dont expect that kind of behavior, when it does happen though it is kind of nice, won't deny that. hehe.

lorien elf
17-10-05, 20:04
Heh, a guy should not prefer to be a brute in order to prove his manhood, err, hehe, just wanted to say brute. err, anyway. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif Celephais, that would be fun to say, hehe, "kind sir" hehehe. "dear old boy" hehe, English. *ahem* no offense of course. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

T.Onix
17-10-05, 20:04
Oh come on!!!!
I have a good friend, and he's very polite with girls, we have this confidence, last saturday we were kicking back at my flat, and ended up having a major pillow fight, and I don't mean any kind of fight, my arm literally bled! and we just kept playing. He knows I wont get offended, coz we both play, but he's still a gentleman.

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 20:05
...erm... no offence Jacob x5 but do you actually know what Chivalry means or are you genuinly that rude and ignorant? :confused:

:rolleyes:

lorien elf
17-10-05, 20:05
Oh yeah, but I think of hit girls like in an abusive manner. even if she deserves it by say, cursing at someone or I dont know, just being mean. Playing is one thing, but beating one's wife or girlfriend is another.

Jacob x5
17-10-05, 20:08
I am not rude or ignorant and I know perfectly well what chivalry so don't call me things like that please. Chivalry is something that I have always thought pointless and pathetic.

lorien elf
17-10-05, 20:10
is that the Prince of Persia forum, Catapharact? interesting. I like English manners, hehe, of the older centuries. that would be fun. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Catapharact
17-10-05, 20:12
Hmmm, well overall, most Females of the forum have agreed that it's one major element that's missing in a good person.

So in your Opinion Jacob, you would deny them their one wish? A few manners; it's all what they ask. They don't expect you to go rescuing them from a fiery dragon; just be curtious.

I don't know about Christianity, but in Islam, A Woman is the pinnicle point of respect. They are future mothers and birth givers and so it positions them above men; Though I am sad to say, they are rarely treated that way... even in my country.

lorien elf
17-10-05, 20:13
Pathetic? meh, I guess I'm just sort of a romantic? at heart. *sigh* no offense, but I do wonder if you'd ever hit your wife, jacob x 5? :(

Celephais
17-10-05, 20:15
Our conception of knights in shining armour is largely a product of Victorian literature. The real medieval chivalry was more of a military code desigend to gain honour among your fellow warriors, and had not as much to do with rescuing damsels in distress as is believed. At least that's if you believe a television documentary I saw on it. :D

I admire politeness in everyday life for sure, but on the other hand many of the great artists/ musicians were pretty rude- Beethoven springs to mind! Rude people can rule! And some of the best humour is pretty rude (Monty Python anyone?) Looks can be deceiving too. I met Lemmy of Motorhead once, and he seemed like a really nice guy.

Personally I'm neither ingratiatingly polite nor offensivley rude, just average. I'll hold a door open for someone, male or female, I'll apologise if I tread on someone's toes, I'll do all the things that are common courtesy. But I'm not going to act like something I'm not to impress others. I'm not a knight in shining armour and I'm not going to pretend I am one!

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 20:15
:rolleyes: Oh well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I just always thought hitting girls was quite un-mannerly. Well, hitting anyone is but oh well lol.

Edit: Wow Catapharact, if only there were more guys like you.. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif lol

[ 17. October 2005, 21:18: Message edited by: Real Life Laa ]

lorien elf
17-10-05, 20:17
oh yes, sorry for posting so much here but I see what you are saying Catapharact and I admire your respect and kindness much. but I can see it as human prejudices? corrupting uh views like that, thus becoming something askew of what religion/faith dictates is right. I believe that ppl in Western countries also used to allow certain ill treatment of women and called themselves Christians yet they must have missed something important in the Bible, Jesus never treated women as inferior beings. so I believe anyway.

Jacob x5
17-10-05, 20:18
Already you have labelled me as someone with no manners! Do you know how rude that is? I have manners for , just please think before calling me anything.

People have said I am sexist and have no respect for women just because I am against chivalry, when in actual fact I am the opposite of sexist because Chivalry is the most sexust thing I've ever known about.

So do I respect women?

I respect men and women who respect me and I have no respect for men or women who are not nice to me. There's my simple answer.

I thought this thread was a simple discussion where anyone's opinion is welcome but I come to post mine and people are calling me this and that. I would have thought better from people of a forum of such high standards. I may think twice about posting here if I am going to be singled out.

Catapharact
17-10-05, 20:20
LOL! Celephais.

Masybe I should have retitled the post topic. "Is mannerism" dead? LOL!

By Chivilry I men the romantic idea; The "Sir Lancelot" type ;) LOL! A few manners don't hurt anyone. Being nice doesn't mean you're weak; Quite the opposite actually. IMO who have a stong Iron will are mannered (With exceptions offcourse.) Salah-Ud-Din, for instance was quite the Gentleman. He was strong in battle but when the fighting was over, so was his anger.

Jacob x5
17-10-05, 20:21
Did I ever say I hit girls? NO! Did I ever say I do it for no reason? NO! Did I say I hit anyone? NO! I would definitely hit a boy or a girl if they hit me, or if they made me angry, or insulted me, then I may feel the need to, but I'm NOT a violent person. Just because I say I hate the idea of people saying "you shouldn't hit girls" and never saying "you shouldn't hit boys" it doesn't mean I go around hitting girls or anyone for no reason!

*Points to head* infuture, use this before posting!

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 20:22
If you read my post, I didnt say you had no manners, I said hitting girls/anyone is un-mannerly. I really have no interest in insulting you, I just find your view that chivalry is pointless and hitting women should be allowed to be quite strange. But that's just me, so please don't take offence by it. ;) You aren't being singled out, and this is a discussion: it just so happens that it is my opinion in this discussion (no-one elses) that hitting people is un-mannerly. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Edit: lol Yeah, Ive kinda gone off topic. In summary, chivalry is a good thing IMO, not to say that all the work should be left to the men. As someone said already, I hold doors open for guys, but it would be nice if a few could do it back now and again :(

[ 17. October 2005, 21:25: Message edited by: Real Life Laa ]

lorien elf
17-10-05, 20:23
Oh yeah, I'd often thought of the knights' behavior as something flamboyant or just plain false, but the idea of it is nice. I dont expect that one should do any sort of thing out of character, simply to impress another or to do it merely to follow a code. I dont consider meself to be all that kind either, but I wont be a jack*** when I can be polite, er, if that makes any sense. lol. I wouldn't laugh at an old lady if she were to fall into a street either. heh, as some might. could at least be polite and keep it to oneself. yeah, I guess that was random. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Catapharact
17-10-05, 20:25
Ok this is getting out of hand. Jacob, I know the forum is an open space for posting, but there is no point in flaming. It's a simple matter of preception; How do you expect to get respect, if you don't offer it in the first place?

In short, remain civil as you did before this post. Give reasons as to why you think Chivilry is a waste of time. That way, it's an objective argument, not a subjective one.

T.Onix
17-10-05, 20:26
Guys!!!
Guys!!!!

Come on! Take it peacefully.
Listen Jacob, catapharact, etc. Chivalry or not, there is one thing that makes us gentleman or ladies (what chivalry does not apply on us???)
Chivalry is a tradition, just like praying before having a meal. The definition of being a gentleman or a lady, is the person who makes everything to make people surrounding them feel comfortable (my sintaxis sucks big time).
It's a little more than just respecting, is about the kindness towards others. And no. chivalry is not dead, as long as a woman wants to be treated like that, there will be men keen to do so.

[ 17. October 2005, 21:28: Message edited by: T.Onyx ]

lorien elf
17-10-05, 20:28
oh yeah,jacob x5 sorry, I kind of just used my head and realized that what I said was a bit insulting, about the wife thing, maybe no one noticed... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif I apologize, sincerely.

[ 17. October 2005, 21:38: Message edited by: Limiel ]

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 20:29
Good points T.Onyx ...yeah, maybe I was wrong about it being dead. I take it back: it is infact in hiding. lol Or it hasn't found me yet or something http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif

Catapharact
17-10-05, 20:31
Ah an open mind on the topic http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . Yes offcourse, as I said before, mannerism isn't dead. There are those few who do know the value of kind gestures and simple curtosy. Bieng nice doesn't means being weak. On teh contrary, it usually is a sign of a strong will and Principals.

Though again, comes down to the point of preference.

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 20:35
Hmm I've always found it strange how people seem to believe being nice makes you less manly or strong. Like you said, Catapharact, defining manly I'd say it's a sum of principals and good manners too. The typical deffinition these days seems to be that you take no nonsense and show anyone who doesnt agree with you who's 'boss' ...now that's pathetic. :( lol

T.Onix
17-10-05, 20:37
Yeah, it becomes pretty roughwhen it comes to tastes. I love chivalry, but I tend to be quite independant, so most men think I don't like it. for me is something sweet, and men who are gentle like to be like that. So, thumbs up for chivalry.

But that's just me
Kisses.

lorien elf
17-10-05, 20:39
I agree, T. Onyx. It is something sweet, the manners, that is.

Celephais
17-10-05, 20:43
What would Lara Croft make of chivalry? I think she would whip out the rocket launcher and blow away the first piece of male garbage that dared to think she needed any help.

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 20:46
lol Probably, I mean she looked like she was gonna break Bouchards neck when he offered her a trip back to his place http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif Poor guy was just trying to be nice... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Catapharact
17-10-05, 20:47
LOL!!! *Shakes head* By God, you have it wrong Celephais.

Ok, look at it through this preception:

By Chivilry, I ment respect http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . Not all situations require you to become a Knight in Shining armor. You give the other person their room; obviously.

Though simple manners means just opening a door for a lady. I don't think Lara Croft would mind that.

T.Onix
17-10-05, 20:47
No, I think she would do that to rude men. but first she'd nail them to a wall with a couple harpoons http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/mischievous.gif

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 20:52
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/yikes.gif Ouch! That'd hurt in the morning... lol

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 20:56
Eek my posts are a-doubling. Sorry People http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

[ 17. October 2005, 21:58: Message edited by: Real Life Laa ]

T.Onix
17-10-05, 21:02
Chivalry is not about doing thing because the other person is uncapable of doing them. We can all open doors, pay our meals, blah, blah blah, is about taking someone else's burden. Not because you are stronger, more capable, smarter, or anything, is just because you want the other person to have a good time with you. That's all.

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 21:05
T.Onyx http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif That sums it up very well I think :D

Celephais
17-10-05, 21:24
Originally posted by T.Onyx:
Chivalry is not about doing thing because the other person is uncapable of doing them. We can all open doors, pay our meals, blah, blah blah, is about taking someone else's burden. Not because you are stronger, more capable, smarter, or anything, is just because you want the other person to have a good time with you. That's all. Great. We've reached an undertstanding. Let's all go to my favourite Italian restaurant and tlr online can pay the bill.

[ 17. October 2005, 22:28: Message edited by: Celephais ]

lorien elf
17-10-05, 21:29
LOl, Celephais. I like that idea though T. Onyx of simply taking up another's burden, not because one is smarter or more capable but because one is able to? simply that? to help take a bit off of another's already heavy load. I think it says something about taking on each other's burdens in Christianity? dunno exaclty. Manners and kindness in a man are attractive traits. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif opening a door is just nice. that's all. better than letting it slam in someone's face! hehe. I think Lara would be the type maybe not to be so rude to any man just because he was being chilvarous, that would be crazy of her then, but maybe just to the rude guys, like Onyx said, I think. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 21:31
lol Celephais, that sounds fair! :D XD

Angel666
17-10-05, 21:33
Oh my. Much has happend since I left. In my experience chivilry is dead. Maybe some day some man might change my oppinion on that but for now it's six feet under. I don't think anyone would mind a little respect. Even Lara Croft. I don't need a knight in shining armor but it would be nice.

T.Onix
17-10-05, 21:33
Originally posted by Celephais:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by T.Onyx:
Chivalry is not about doing thing because the other person is uncapable of doing them. We can all open doors, pay our meals, blah, blah blah, is about taking someone else's burden. Not because you are stronger, more capable, smarter, or anything, is just because you want the other person to have a good time with you. That's all. Great. We've reached an undertstanding. Let's all go to my favourite Italian restaurant and tlr online can pay the bill. </font>[/QUOTE]Can I order lobster?

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 21:37
I'll take the lemon chicken thanks ;)

Real Life Lara
17-10-05, 21:39
Edit: double post... i swear my computer does this to me on purpose :( http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-1.gif

[ 17. October 2005, 22:41: Message edited by: Real Life Laa ]

Angelina
17-10-05, 22:33
Originally posted by Nicky:
Catapharact, you are too chivalrous and kind to be true! Do you really exist?Hi Nicky! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Ah so I see you also noticed what a "rare diamond" we have here socializing amongst us?? :D

Well believe me I've done all I could to make this wonder of a man remove parts of his clothing just so that I could in fact find out whether he IS made out of flesh and blood like the rest of us... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

*So as you can see I did all this in a researching purpose.....no hidden intentions whatsoever... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/mischievous.gif *

And did you know he even has that white stallion to add to his "prince charming qualities"... :D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Genocide
18-10-05, 01:58
(sorry im late on this, but heres my thoughts on the subject at hand...feel free to think MEH and ignore them)
Chivalry isnt dead, just dying, im one of the guys who will open doors and what not, theres even a girl at work who wishs her boyfriend were more like me in that sense (ive met him and he's a complete git) and her favorite saying as of late is...
"If i was five years younger..."
this to me says that women would like a guy to make nice gestures in that respect, BUT not go to far otherwise it could spoil things, and as for women doing things in return (i'll say this once) YOU DON'T NEED TO! just say thankyou, or smile politely, that for me is one of my favorite things, knowing that im appreciated for just bieng me, i kind honest guy...i don't need you to do the same things as it could spoil it abit, and im sure that the men who arent ignnorant enough to do such a thing probably feel the same way.
One word os best used to describe this decline in chivalry though...CHAV (thats the british explanation anyway) and im sure Destinys Child have something to answer for aswell

Jacob x5
18-10-05, 05:02
Sorry to go off topic a minute but ok I'm sorry if I didn't get my point across very well but I wasn't flaming, and Real Life Laa no offense but I felt quite hurt by the fact that you seem to have got the idea that I think hitting girls is ok. No it's not ok where the http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/censored.gif did you get that idea from? But...I'm sorry to have taken that so seriously last night and I don't think that all the things that I said I meant...I didn't mean to say that chivalry is a waste of time...I just somtimes get annoyed sometimes maybe people don't conder how it's all about the men doing things for women...I wonder maybe that men don't feel cared for by whoever it is when they don't get anything in return...

But anyway if you are sorry then I'm sorry oh by the way apoligy accepted whoever Limiel. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Originally posted by T.Onyx:
Can I order lobster?Look into my eyes, look into my eyes. The eyes, the eyes. Don't look around the eyes, don't look around the eyes. Look into my eyes. *Clicks fingers* you're under. You will not -repeat- NOT order the lobster it's far too exensive and that champaign is bad enough as it is you will order the salad instead oh and by the way red wine tastes disgusting. 3, 2, 1...*Clicks fingers* You're back in the room.

Sorry if that's get old now lol.

[ 18. October 2005, 06:07: Message edited by: jacob jacob jacob jacob jacob ]

Nicky
18-10-05, 09:12
Originally posted by Catapharact:
... there are good guys and sometimes they just are too quiet ... LOL! You already have seen FCY LOL! There is an Englander at the POP forums; a moderator as well. Goes by teh nickname Bitebug ... LOL! Actually his name is Chris ... A real great guySo, we already have three. Plus you, four. Plus a couple of people I know myself, that's six. Not very encouraging number, but at least it's something. LOL!!! :D

@ Angelina: LMAO http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif You naughty girl http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/mischievous.gif :D

Concerning chivalry and what has been discussed so far here: IMO, it's all about respecting the other person. I don't want the guy to respect me just because I am a woman, but because I am a human being. I want him to respect me just like I respect him. OK, he doesn't have to open the door for me if that's too much for him... But he could wait for me to get inside before slapping the door in my face :rolleyes: I would never do that to him, so I expect him to show the same respect to me.

And like already stated in this thread, it's not about women not being able to do some things and expecting from guys to do them. It's a matter of order. I have learnt to be very independant but this doesn't mean that I don't like some chivalry in my life http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif I can very well lift a heavy suitcase on my own, but I will appreciate it if the guy who is accompanying me or a guy who passes by and sees me holding it offers to carry it for me. I may not take his offer, but I will appreciate the fact that he thought about it.

Catapharact
18-10-05, 13:20
Originally posted by Angelina:


Ah so I see you also noticed what a "rare diamond" we have here socializing amongst us??

Well believe me I've done all I could to make this wonder of a man remove parts of his clothing just so that I could in fact find out whether he IS made out of flesh and blood like the rest of us...

*So as you can see I did all this in a researching purpose.....no hidden intentions whatsoever... *

And did you know he even has that white stallion to add to his "prince charming qualities"... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif LOL!!!

Angie, you know you'll always be my Knight in Shining Courtour ;) LOL!

Uh-uh, the shirt stay on LOL, and it shall be doing that for quite a while http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif LOL!

Reserch purposes? As I recall, reserch had nothing to do with Women's Night. (Inside joke LOL!) Oh man, that was a night to remember LOL!

And again as I remember, you can thank that stallion for our meeting http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . If it wasn't for that meeting in the horse rider's thread, I wouldn't have known you. And I still can't get over the fact that you thought I was a girl! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-1.gif

Originally posted by Nicky:
So, we already have three. Plus you, four. Plus a couple of people I know myself, that's six. Not very encouraging number, but at least it's something. LOL!!! Oh we are just the six "discovered ones." LOL! There are more, Trust me http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . As long as respect exist in this world, there are manners, and as long as there are manners, there are guys who wouldn't mind using them http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif .

[ 18. October 2005, 14:21: Message edited by: Catapharact ]

Real Life Lara
18-10-05, 13:24
Quote by Jacobx5 - (Is chivalry dead) Yes, at least I really do hope so. So is sexual equality (so much for that idea)! All this 'shouldn't hit girls' rubbish.

Sorry, I just got the idea from what you said that you thought not being able to hit girls was 'rubbish.' Yes, maybe it was an misunderstanding, in which case maybe you could have given some reasons as to why you think that rather than just putting across what appeared to be a strange statement without backing it up atall. Again, I don't mean to offend you, it was merely a misunderstanding obviously. ;)

Angel666
18-10-05, 15:00
(refering to Nicky's post)Okay, that's six guys plus the ONE I know. Thats seven. Hmmmmm... not very high but we're getting there.

Catapharact
18-10-05, 15:14
Just a little bit of poll:

Is chivalry dead?

Men: 82% say No
Women: 40% say Yes

- from an I-Net singles' site online poll


And well, another pair of interesting articles:


Chivalry -- The Myth & the Double Standard


On April 15, 1912, as the "unsinkable" Titanic slowly sank during its maiden voyage, chivalrous men deferred to women lifeboat seats that could accommodate only a third of the passengers and crew. Most of those who survived the Titanic disaster were women and children. A present day neo-feminist, Linda Lichter, reviewing the Titanic record endorsed the actions of 1912 men who sacrificed their lives for women.

"Such men understood the essential and intimate links between Victorian etiquette and making the ultimate sacrifice (death) for the women society had taught them to revere," Lichter said.

That is the statement of a modern-day woman nostalgically yearning for a 1912 self-sacrificing man who serves women.

Shortly after news of the disaster broke, suffragettes Dr. Anna Shaw and Millicent Murby denounced the "women first" policy. Even as long ago as 1912, women like Shaw and Murby, who demanded equality with men, did not think that women on the Titanic deserved any special consideration. Shaw believed that full equality meant equal risk of life with men in times of adversity.

"(Women) must consider very carefully whether it is worthwhile to let men assume the entire burden of physical sacrifice in times of danger," Ms. Murby said.

At the time, Lida Stokes Adams of Philadelphia noted, "Women passengers of the Titanic lost one of the greatest chances ever presented to aid the cause of suffrage when they did not assert themselves and prove they are as courageous as men."

I agree with Shaw's, Murby's, and Adams' sentiments. If equality meant equal risk in 1912, it should certainly mean that today.

If feminist leaders in 1912 rejected chivalry, there is no place for it in modern society, where men and women are presumed to be equal. The out-dated chivalry concept puts men at a severe disadvantage and in servitude to women. What possible justification could exist today for men to serve women whom our culture considers their equals and competitors? Women's demands that men open doors for them, give them seats on trains and rise when they enter rooms are reminiscent of the way the French aristocracy treated their serfs before the French revolution.

Equality and chivalry do not mix. In today's world, chivalry gives women an edge that they have not earned and do not deserve. Nevertheless, some women continue to look backward and demand from men 18th-Century obeisance in a 20th-Century world.

Women lost their right to this special deference when they took the right to vote, entered the work force, and demanded and received equality. Yet, reactionary spokeswomen are still trying to build bridges to the past. They want to recapture the outmoded benefits that encumbered and subjugated men, without relinquishing women's gains of the past 80 years.

One such reactionary, Lichter, wrote longingly about a 19th Century male dinner guest who was denied a second invitation after he failed to bow his head to the woman hostess when raising his first glass of wine. Lichter wants men to relearn old chivalrous behaviors, which she mistakenly identifies as civility. She then makes the unwarranted leap of equating male incivility with sexual harassment. That's interesting.

"To my mind, incivility is sexual harassment," Lichter wrote.

Does Lichter think that once men learn to bow and open doors, sexual harassment will go away?

The main flaw of Lichter's view is that it is all one-way. She speaks of civility and etiquette rules that men must follow to please and honor women. She forgets that in this century, we expect civility to be a two-way street. Why should men be denied civil treatment from women? Why should we assume that women are naturally civil? Why shouldn't women be held to as high a "civility" standard as men?

Recall the "good-women, bad-men" presumptions discussed earlier [in the book]. When a culture assumes that one sex is better than the other, it makes no effort to demand civility from the preferred sex. Our culture assumes that women are naturally good and need no civility standards. Only men, whom our culture presumes to be bad, need to learn and practice civility, according to current thinking.

Are women naturally civil? No. As we approach the 21st Century, we find that women have become far more capable of incivility, mayhem, aggression, brutality, and murder than they ever were in Victorian times. We need only look at recent killers such as Susan Smith (child killer), Darlie Routier, (child killer), Pamela Smart (husband killer), and Cheri Dale (ax-murderer), etc. to get a sense of women's violence and incivility. Many of women's victims today are men.

In one current best-selling book, the female authors expand chivalry's definition to include dating.

"It's just chivalrous for men to pick up their dates and pick up the checks. Equality and Dutch treat are fine in the workplace, but not in the romantic playing field. (The man is) deriving great pleasure from taking you out. [Yea, right...] Why deprive him of the joy of feeling chivalrous?"

Can women be more blatant than this? The women authors of that statement have all but said that they want equal benefits, but not equal financial responsibilities. They label this inequality chivalry.

Unfortunately, high-profile TV personalities perpetuate the chivalry myth that traps men in servitude to women.

During a recent daytime TV talk show, broadcast from a major Florida theme park, a man dressed as a knight in shining armor (-it really did shine) proposed to a woman. She accepted, and they were married on the show. The audience oooo'd and ahhhh'd.

Some people may consider this romantic. In the Middle Ages, it was. The male knight had a female counterpart, appropriate for that time.

Women of today, armed with equality, don't sit in castles fantasizing about men doing things for them. They enter the marketplace and compete aggressively with men. Why should equal competitors receive special deference from men? TV shows such as these perpetuate the myth of chivalry, which chains men to outdated roles and behavior.


Joseph Campbell on Chivalry by Scott Farrell
Chivalry — The Romantic Revolution

http://www.illusionsgallery.com/Accolade2-LX.jpg

The concept of chivalry (along with tales of the knights in shining armor) has been seen for many years as slightly out of date, if not downright absurd. In fact, “chivalry” has become almost synonymous with “outdated social customs” — chivalrous behavior is considered genteel, stodgy and antique. In today’s world, where we all want to be in control of our own destiny, we imagine that the “restrictive social expectations” of chivalry and courtly love that we’ve read about in fairy tales are nothing but impediments to happiness and self-actualization. There are even some commentators who think chivalry perpetuates that myth that women are weak, helpless and subservient.
Ironically, nothing could be further from the truth.

One fellow who points this out very eloquently is Joseph Campbell, whose life-long research revealed the complex and universal archetypes behind the “primitive” myths of nearly every culture and religion on the globe. (Campbell’s theories achieved popular attention when they were utilized by a young filmmaker named George Lucas in creating the characters and writing the storyline for his movie Star Wars.)

In the book The Power of Myth, Campbell (in an interview with journalist Bill Moyers) talks about the legends of chivalry from both a cultural and a mythological standpoint. Campbell worked as a scholar, teacher and writer from 1934 to his death in 1987, revealing that fairy tales, legends and folklore can unlock some of the deepest and most ancient mysteries of the human mind. His thoughts on medieval tales of chivalric romance and knightly adventure are nothing short of astonishing.

Campbell recognized that chivalry wasn’t stodgy or absurd. As he points out, prior to the Middle Ages, women (and men too) were largely puppets of familial necessity — they had little influence over their own destiny when it came to establishing romantic relationships or choosing life-partners. But in a world where marriage was primarily a means of establishing geographic or economic bonds between two clans, chivalry helped to tear down the centuries-old social customs that made wives little more than property and husbands political pawns.

In fact, Campbell explains that the troubadours (i.e., professional storytellers) of the Middle Ages weren’t just telling mindless tales of romance and dalliance, they were spreading a radical, almost subversive concept: That men and women could pursue their own destinies, fall in love and relate to one another as equals under a groundbreaking concept known as “courtly love.”

Here’s how Campbell explains chivalry’s revolutionary influence on 12th century culture:

The troubadours were the nobility of Provence and then later other parts of France and Europe. In Germany they’re known as the Minnesingers, the singers of love. Minne is the medieval German word for love. The period for the troubadours is the 12th century. The troubadours were very much interested in the psychology of love. And they’re the first ones in the West who really thought of love the way we do now — as a person-to-person relationship.

Before that, love was simply Eros, the god who excites you to sexual desire. This is not the experience of falling in love the way the troubadours understood it. Eros is much more impersonal than falling in love. You see, people didn’t know about Amor. Amor is something personal that the troubadours recognized.

The troubadours recognized Amor as the highest spiritual experience. With Amor we have a purely personal ideal. The kind of seizure that comes from the meeting of the eyes, as they say in the troubadour tradition, is a person-to-person experience. That’s completely contrary to everything the Church stood for (in medieval Europe).

You know, the usual marriage in traditional cultures was arranged for by the families. It wasn’t a person-to-person decision at all. In the Middle Ages, that was the kind of (impersonal) marriage that was sanctified by the Church. And so the troubadour idea of real person-to-person Amor was very dangerous.

When so many people today think of “chivalry” as a concept associated with antiquated social customs, it’s interesting to realize that the Code of Chivalry was originally a radical concept that shook the very foundations of European society and, in some ways, helped pave the way for the enlightened, humanistic attitudes of the Renaissance. Although the concept of courtly love that’s contained in the true medieval tradition of chivalry may seem tame, or even dowdy by 21st century standards, Campbell reminds us that the Code of Chivalry helped break down the repressive gender roles that existed at the time. As Bill Moyers surmised:

The point of all these pioneers in love is that they decided to be the author and means of their own self-fulfillment, that the realization of love is to be nature’s noblest work, and that they were going to take their wisdom from their own experience and not from dogma, politics, or any current concepts of social good.

So, if the Code of Chivalry was such a radical departure from the traditional gender roles of the Middle Ages, why does the mention of “chivalry” cause men and women who believe in “gender equality” to grind their teeth? Why are the genteel attitudes of chivalry seen by so many people as demeaning towards women?

Partly, it’s due to the misconceptions we have about the Code of Chivalry. In the days of knights in shining armor — the 12th, 13th and 14th centuries — women weren’t put on pedestals to be admired from afar. (That concept comes from the pens of 19th century novelists.) Instead, women of medieval society were expected to play an active, intellectual role in the culture of chivalry that transformed the violent warriors of the Gothic tribes into the noble gentlemen of the High Middle Ages. Campbell explains that rather than making women “helpless,” the Code of Chivalry gave them great power and influence:

Love is the meaning of life — it is the high point of life … The five main virtues of the medieval knight might be brought in here. One is temperance, another is courage, another is love, another is loyalty, and another is courtesy. Courtesy is respect for decorum of the society in which you are living.

And the medieval idea, in spite of the fact that these people were in protest against the ecclesiastical authorities, was respect for the society in which they were participating. Everything was done according to rules. When two knights fought, they did not violate the rules of combat although they were engaged in mortal combat. This courtesy has to be held in mind.

Well, that was the beginning of the courtly love relationship. There were game rules there, and they played it according to the rules … Anything you do involves a system of rules that state how a thing is to be done and done well. It has been said that art is the making of things well. And the conduct of a love affair — well, you could be a clumsy lout in this, but how much nicer to have the knowledge of certain rules that enable the expression to become more eloquent and gratifying.

(Chivalry and romantic love) were the same thing. It was a very strange period because it was terribly brutal. There was no central law. Everyone was on his own, and, of course, there were great violations of everything. But within this brutality, there was a civilizing force, which the women really represented because they were the ones who established the rules for this game. And the men had to play it according to the requirements of the women.

Because, if you want to make love to a woman, she’s already got the drop on you. The technical term for the woman’s granting of herself was merci. The woman grants her merci. Now, that might consist in her permission to kiss her on the back of the neck once every Whitsuntide, you know, something like that — or it might be a full giving in love. That would depend upon her estimation of the character of the candidate.

There was an essential requirement — that one must have a gentle heart, that is, a heart capable of love, not simply of lust. The woman would be testing to find whether the candidate for her love had a gentle heart, whether he was capable of love … The tests that were given then involved, for example, sending a chap out to guard a bridge. But also the tests included going into battle. A woman who was too ruthless in asking her lover to risk real death before she would acquiesce in anything was considered sauvage or “savage.” There was a very nice psychological estimation game going on here.

In his writing, Joseph Campbell reminds us that chivalry was not child’s play, nor was it a means of forcing women into helpless subservience. The Code of Chivalry was nothing less than the slow but unquenchable fire that forged order out of chaos, burning away the dross of violence, ignorance and self-interest, and creating an alloy of strength, wisdom and compassion.

In the world of the 21st century, the Code of Chivalry is once again a radical, revolutionary concept in interpersonal relationships. Chivalry Today reminds us that the strongest relationships must be built on a foundation of strength, respect and courtesy.

Campbell’s words are also a reminder that the complex attributes of chivalry defy any simplistic definition based on gender stereotypes. Chivalry is strength with compassion, integrity with boldness, action with contemplation — and that is what makes the Code of Chivalry such a timeless and enduring part of our culture, from the days of knights in armor, to the heroes and role models (male and female alike) who are the knights in shining armor of the modern world.

[ 18. October 2005, 16:24: Message edited by: Catapharact ]

Angel666
18-10-05, 15:29
:rolleyes: I'm not asking for a man to lose his life for me, only to open a door if say I have my hands full or offer to help carry a heavy load. I might not take him up on it but the gesture would be nice.

Catapharact
18-10-05, 15:30
Read the second one Angel dear http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . It's what I have been saying all along. The Author of the article really put forth the real meaning of Chivalry http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif .

[ 18. October 2005, 16:34: Message edited by: Catapharact ]

Angel666
18-10-05, 15:40
I did, I just...... FORGOT what it said. Yeah, we'll go with that. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-2.gif

crux2
18-10-05, 15:48
Chivalry was never alive. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/yikes.gif

shock horror.

It was 'invented' in the victorian age in an attempt to romanicise the middle ages.

Some historians also believe that it evolved as another (very subtle) way to restrict women.

In the middle ages women had more resposibility/independance than many people realise. The victorian image of a Knight rescuing a helpless damsel is grossly exaggerated. Knights were not the pure hearted and chivalrous people that people think they were. Many would be more likely to ransom the damsel back to her family/house than set her free.

Sorry to burst the bubble. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

Thank Terry Jones and his TV series for these pearls of wisdom.

http://epguides.com/TerryJonesMedievalLives/logo.jpg

Catapharact
18-10-05, 16:02
Oh man we seriously lack Romantics in this forum LOL!

Well in some ways I agree with you Crux, since Europe wasn't the one to practice Chivilry in the first place ;) :

Have a read:


ARAB MURU’AH GAVE BIRTH TO EUROPEAN CHIVALRY

The Arabs are said to have been the first people to practice chivalry in their way of life and conflicts. Unlike those of other nations like the Greeks, Romans and Persians, Arab wars were usually fought for glory according a strict code of conduct and honor. They were fought fairly and, at most times, without treachery. Champions fought before both armies and battles often took place by appointment. As late as 1492 when the Christians captured Granada, the Muslim champions came out before the battle to challenge their Spanish counterparts.

Writing about these engagements, John Glubb, a modern British historian, writes:

“The Arab nomads were passionate poets and every incident of these chivalrous encounters were immortalized in verse and recited every night around the campfires which flickered in the empty vastness of the desert peninsula.”

Arabian chivalry was a code of ethics, life and social structure. It evolved to become synonymous with the quest for freedom and justice as well as a man fighting to death for his womenfolk. During war, women often accompanied their men to battle, but they were usually stationed behind the lines. R.A. Nicholson in A Literary History of the Arabs quotes a verse by Amr ibn Ma*dikarib, a famous Arab poet who lived at the time of the Prophet Muhammad:

“When I saw the hard earth hollowed,
By our women’s flying footprints,
And Lamis her face uncovered
Like the full moon in the skies,
Showing forth her hidden beauties–
Then the matter was grim earnest:
I engaged their chief in combat,
Seeing help no other wise.”

Protecting the good repute and honor of women - the knight’s harim (sanctuary), family and tribe was a basic requirement of an Arab knight. In pre and early Islam women were very important in society. They inspired the poet to sing and the warrior to fight. The women played a role comparable, to a great extent to the role the ladies were later to play in Western chivalry.

Renowned Arab knights such as Imru’uI al-Qays and Antar ibn Shadad al-Absi were not officially knighted as in Europe. They became knights by reputation of their courage, dignity, noble deeds and the pursuit of honor, through poetry, tales and legends. Incorporating generosity, forgiveness, and a just and honorable repute as well as advocating justice and freedom, they became the treasure of their people, and a major aspect of Arab poetry. Pride of culture revolved around their adventures and feats.

The most common themes in Arab poetry were love, praise and insults. In their ballads, the poets helped foster the romantic spirit and, hence, furnished the setting for the rise of chivalry. As to honorable love, the Arabs are said to have been the first people to make romance in the unattainable sense, like courtly love, sighs and devotion to the untouchable beloved, a way of life.

Gustav Leabeon writes that Islam, in its early days, gave women exactly the position that European women would take centuries to achieve. Leabeon concludes that after the chivalry of Andalusia filtered into Europe, courteous behavior towards women became the main theme of European chivalry.

Titus Burckhardt in Moorish Culture in Spain writes that the European chivalry of the Middle Ages was learned from the Spanish Moors. Burckhardt maintains that the glorification of women and the depiction of noble knights with their many virtues came about as a result of the impact of the Arab qualities in battles, literature and daily lives - characteristics not familiar in the world of Christendom.

The ethical and romantic characteristic of al-furusiyyah al-arabiya (Arabian chivalry), as practiced in the Arabian Peninsula, evolved and spread with the Muslim expansion. During the Arab era in the Iberian Peninsula and the years of the Crusades, chivalry with all its attributes was transferred to Western Europe. An important Arab contribution to Western medieval society, its origin has been virtually ignored by Western historians.

Romantic chivalry as pursued in medieval Europe is nothing more than the continuation of al-furusiyyah al-arabiya. Abanese, a Spanish writer wrote that Europe had not known knighthood, its, arts and practices before the arrival to Andalusia of Arabs with their knights and heroes. A logical hypothesis in that chivalry had not been known to the Greeks and Romans. This offshoot of the chivalrous life of the Arab and Muslim conquerors in the Iberian Peninsula, both in theory and manner was never outdone by the European Christian.

It is said that chivalry was the most prominent characteristic of the Moors in the Iberian Peninsula. To all Arabs in that era, to become a genuine faris (knight), a man had to attain attributes of dignity, eloquence, gentleness, horsemanship, physical strength, poetic talent and mastery in the bow and arrow, spear and sword. These virtues were transferred by way of the Iberian Peninsula to the remainder of Europe. Romantic Hispano-Arabic literary forms, such as the love songs of the muwashshah form, were forerunners to the songs of the troubadours which gave birth to medieval knighthood and the age of chivalry.

A historian once wrote that the genius of the Arabs was poetic and their songsters in the Iberian Peninsula outnumbered those of all other peoples put together. El-Cid, who was greatly influenced by Moorish culture, especially its poetry, composed a poem which is the oldest and finest ballad of medieval Spanish verse and is said to have given birth to the songs of chivalry in Christian Spain.

While some of Arabic poetry was sensual and pleasure-seeking, it was the romantic components that were adopted by the Provençal Troubadours from the Arab courts in Andalusia. This poetic genre combined with the Christian honor to the Virgin Mary was behind a good part of the medieval concept of chivalry.

European chivalry also gained much from contact with the Arabs during the Crusades. &gt;From among the many incidents during these long conflicts are those which relate to Saladin and which become renowned. To the Europeans, Saladin was the perfect example of cultured chivalry. When the Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099, they slaughtered virtually all the inhabitants. However, when Saladin, well-known for his kindness to prisoners taken in battle, re-took the city in 1187, he spared his victims, giving them safe passage to leave.

Despite his fierce opposition to the Crusading powers, Saladin achieved a great reputation in Europe as a chivalrous knight. When his foe Richard the Lion Hearted, leader of the Christian armies, became sick, he sent his personal physician to heal him. There is no doubt that the Crusaders learned from him a great deal about chivalry. During the 14th century, an epic poem about Saladin was circulated in Europe and Dante included him among the virtuous pagan souls in Limbo.

When one reads today of the nobility of a knight in shining armor rushing to rescue a maiden in distress, it is well to remember that behind the nobility of his act are the Arabs who laid the basis of his action. Perhaps, no one has described the impact of Arab al-furusiyyah and muru’ah on European chivalry better than R.A. Nicholson who writes:

“The chivalry of the Middle Ages is, perhaps, ultimately traceable to heathen Arabia. ‘Knight-errantry, the riding forth on horseback in search of adventures, the rescue of captive maidens, the succor rendered every where to women in adversity - all these were essentially Arabian ideas, as was the very name of chivalry, the connection of honorable conduct with the horse-rider, the man of noble blood, the cavalier…..But the nobility of the women is not only reflected in the heroism and devotion of the men; it stands recorded in song, in legend and in history.”

Real Life Lara
18-10-05, 16:52
Wow interesting reading... Im still deciding whether or not it really is gone or if its just lurking in the shadows somewhere. lol http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

Jacob x5
18-10-05, 17:02
Real Life Laa: Sorry, what I MEANT to say was, I wish that people took the hitting of males as seriously as they took the hitting of women. By the way, nice new avatar. :D

I think chivalry really isn't that bad I do like the idea and I've got my message across in a bad way lol. Those polite things people do to help people, those small things are always nice as they can really make someones day. You will see on busses next to seats sometimes: "Priority seats for the elderly, disabled or those less able to stand." Stuff like that, it's always polite, and I often say to an old person who comes on the bus when there's no seats, "do you want to seat here?" to which they reply "No thanks, I'm alright standing" and I often find that if I was one who stayed in my seat for instance in an instance where the driver has asked someone to stand, the elderly person would ask if they could sit there. So it really isn't that they want to sit down it's just the fact that someone has been polite to them. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif It always puts a smile on my face when someone does just a really tiny thing for me... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Jacob x5
18-10-05, 17:05
By the way you know how it says priority seats for...those less able to stand. I'm asthamatic so do I count? Lol :D People sometimes give me their seat when I need to take my inhaler though which is nice http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Real Life Lara
18-10-05, 17:05
Ok glad we got it sorted Jacob and thanks, your new one's cool too ;)

T.Onix
18-10-05, 20:02
Originally posted by jacob jacob jacob jacob jacob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by T.Onyx:
Can I order lobster?Look into my eyes, look into my eyes. The eyes, the eyes. Don't look around the eyes, don't look around the eyes. Look into my eyes. *Clicks fingers* you're under. You will not -repeat- NOT order the lobster it's far too exensive and that champaign is bad enough as it is you will order the salad instead oh and by the way red wine tastes disgusting. 3, 2, 1...*Clicks fingers* You're back in the room.


Sorry if that's get old now lol. </font>[/QUOTE]ROFL!!!!!!!! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/vlol.gif

Atlantea
19-10-05, 07:03
Originally posted by Angel666:
(refering to Nicky's post)Okay, that's six guys plus the ONE I know. Thats seven. Hmmmmm... not very high but we're getting there. I know 5 more :D so that makes it 12 http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif

Draco
19-10-05, 07:34
I'm a romantic, haven't really met anyone who didn't like it.

Catapharact
19-10-05, 13:39
Originally posted by Draco:
I'm a romantic, haven't really met anyone who didn't like it. "Passonate" is the world I'll use ;) LOL! Rare to see a Romantic Scorpio http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif . Kidding, kidding ;) .

Nicky
19-10-05, 13:45
Originally posted by Atlantea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Angel666:
(refering to Nicky's post)Okay, that's six guys plus the ONE I know. Thats seven. Hmmmmm... not very high but we're getting there. I know 5 more :D so that makes it 12 http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Quick!!! Let's grab them and lock them in a museum before they vanish from Earth!!! They're endangering species!!! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Catapharact
19-10-05, 13:59
Ummm, wouldn't that just kill em Nicky? :( . No Food, No water... We are gonna die! :( :( :( .

Nicky
19-10-05, 14:22
LMAO :D Awww... :( No, we'll take care of you http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif :D

Catapharact
19-10-05, 14:29
LOL!

Hmmm,

Cons to the idea:

- No more wandering freely across the metropolis.
- Gonna be couped up in a building for eternity.
- People are gonna stare at me through a plexi glass window. No Privacy.

Pros to idea:

- To be taken cared of by Nicky :D .


I am in! :D LOL! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Nicky
19-10-05, 14:34
LOL! :D

Catapharact
19-10-05, 15:40
Just a little quote of interest http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif :

I hold that a gentleman of worth, who is in love, ought to be sincere and truthful in this [labor] as in all other things; and it if it is true that to betray an enemy is baseness and a most abominable wrong, think how much more grave the offense ought to be considered when done to one whom we love. And I believe that every gentle lover endures so many toils, so many vigils, exposes himself to so many dangers, sheds so many tears, uses so many ways and means to please his lady love--not chiefly in order to possess her body, but to take the fortress of her mind and to break those hardest diamonds and melt that cold ice, which are often found in the tender breasts of women And this I believe is the true and sound pleasure and the goal aimed at by every noble heart. Certainly, if I were in love, I should wish rather to be sure that she whom I served returned my love from her heart and had given me her inner self--if I had no other satisfaction from her--than to take all pleasure with her against her will; for in such a case I should consider myself master merely of a lifeless body. Hence, those who pursue their desires by these tricks, which might perhaps rather be called treacheries than tricks, do wrong to others, nor do they gain that satisfaction withal which is sought in love if they possess the body without the will. I say the same of certain others who in their love make use of enchantments, charms, sometimes force, sometimes sleeping potions, and such things. And you must know that gifts do much to lessen the pleasures of love; for a man can suspect that he is not loved but that his lady makes a show of loving him in order to gain something by it. Hence, you see that the love of some great lady is prized because it seems that it cannot arise from any other source save that of real and true affection, nor is it to be thought that so great a lady would ever pretend to love an inferior if she did not really love him.


--The Book of the Courtier, Book 2, Paragraph 94.

Andromeda66
19-10-05, 15:52
That goes to a lot of my friends. You're a wise guy Catapharact...Are you sure you're human? LOL just kidding. Dont mind me.

Catapharact
19-10-05, 16:22
Originally posted by Andromeda66:
You're a wise guy Catapharact... Wise? No http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . Wisdom only comes from experience. I am still learning ;) .


Are you sure you're human? LOL just kidding. Dont mind me. LOL! Flesh and Blood ;) .

Andromeda66
19-10-05, 16:58
Well I bow before what wisdom you have.

Catapharact
19-10-05, 18:11
Well thankyou http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif .

Offtopic:

It's not about what a person precives of you; it what you precieve of yourself. You want to be teh best you can be, so do that. There are good books out there, filled with thigs that would intrigue the mind for hours! Thses days however, I see more and more people just being simply lazy.

Atlantea
19-10-05, 18:13
Originally posted by Nicky:
Quick!!! Let's grab them and lock them in a museum before they vanish from Earth!!! They're endangering species!!! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I'm with you on this one :D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif And make a nice exhibit: "The last of the chivalrious men on Earth" http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Atlantea
19-10-05, 18:16
Originally posted by Catapharact:
Ummm, wouldn't that just kill em Nicky? :( . No Food, No water... We are gonna die! :( :( :( . Oh, we will work out some sort of food-and-water-providing-program for the members of this endagered species :D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Draco
19-10-05, 19:22
Originally posted by Catapharact:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:
I'm a romantic, haven't really met anyone who didn't like it. "Passonate" is the world I'll use ;) LOL! Rare to see a Romantic Scorpio http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif . Kidding, kidding ;) . </font>[/QUOTE]http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

Catapharact
19-10-05, 21:05
Originally posted by Draco:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Catapharact:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Draco:
I'm a romantic, haven't really met anyone who didn't like it. "Passonate" is the world I'll use ;) LOL! Rare to see a Romantic Scorpio http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif . Kidding, kidding ;) . </font>[/QUOTE]http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Awww, Draco. Well, Scorpios are the black Knight type. They are related to a more "Seductive" sort of Romance ;) . They have Principles, but they are more passionate in their desires http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . Doesn't make em any less Romantic ;) .

Mary CF
22-10-05, 16:05
I think it is dead. I'm sorry to say.

It has a lot to do with those bs feminists who spell 'women' or 'woman' like 'womyn' and everything else they do.

I've met guys who were very nice, but nice and chivalrous aren't quite the same thing.

Catapharact
22-10-05, 21:08
Hmmm, I would like to think that its been "downgraded" ;) LOL. Reason being, I doubt in thos world, Women needs Knights in shining armor comming to resue them from far away lockup towers LOL!

Chivilry of today includes opening doors, being polite and simply good manners IMO http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif .

Angel666
23-10-05, 05:19
Originally posted by Catapharact:
Ummm, wouldn't that just kill em Nicky? . No Food, No water... We are gonna die! .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, we will work out some sort of food-and-water-providing-program for the members of this endagered species We'll even give you a hamster weel for excercise. We can make a giant water bottle, like the one's for hamsters and the like, with the little ball in the straw. Might take a little getting used to but I'm sure you guys will manage.

Catapharact
23-10-05, 11:36
Hmmmm.... I am about to spend the prime years of my life locked up in a display and running on a hamster wheel...

Better start abandoning my manners http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif LOL!