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Olvidarse
31-01-05, 00:11
If you had the choice between an Intel Pentium 4 Processor 530 w/ H.T.T. (at 3.0 GHz) or an AMD Athlon 64 Processor 3400+, which one would you choose?

Olvidarse
31-01-05, 08:32
The AMD has a FSB of 1600MHz while the Intel has a FSB of 800MHz. Not sure what that means, but I guess bigger is better?

AMD also has 128 KB for the L1 cache and 512 KB for the L2. However, Intel has 16 KB for the L1 and 1 MB for the L2.

Finally, the AMD operates at 2.4 while the Intel at 3.0. What's the difference for the processor speed? Does it even matter anymore?

Joseph
31-01-05, 12:12
Olvidarse, have a read here: http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/index.html ;)

Apofiss
31-01-05, 17:15
I'm using AMD64 3000+ and it's very powerful! (In most test it's even faster than P4 3Ghz)

BTW. There are AMD64 3000+ (and higher models) with 1024KB L2.

I would say AMD has a way better price! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Olvidarse
01-02-05, 02:36
All this information is so confusing. Tom's hardware has different specs for the AMD 3400+. Hmm...

Olvidarse
01-02-05, 07:42
Does anyone know the difference between L1 and L2 cache? It is better to have more memory in L1 and less memory in L2 than to have little memory in L1 and lots of memory in L2?

Joseph
01-02-05, 11:00
It is not only the Mhz numbers, but as well the processor-architecture that counts just as much.
Internal speed = the beloved Mhz, the speed in wich the cpu (Central Processing Unit, or: the Processor) makes its calculations.
Level 1 -cache = the first in-between memory it uses to temporarily store temporary parts of calculations. The fastest and smallest memory in the processor.
Level 2- cache= this exists, to communicate as fast as possible with the Ram memory modules on the motherboard. The larger this temporary memory is, the better is the performance of the cpu. The dimension of this Level 2 - cache is highly contributing to the price-differences (what you pay for them) between cpu's.
Also important is the speed of it. At best, the communication between the cpu and the level 2 - cache is exactly as fast as the internal speed of the cpu.
In case of cheaper cpu-models, the speed of the Level 2 - cache often is decreased to half; the processor becomes not only cheaper but also slower.
Also counts the Front Side Bus (FSB), the external speed of the cpu. We see cpu's with 100, 133, 200, 266, 400, 533, and 800 Mhz FSB, or higher. The higher this FSB speed is, the faster the cpu can communicate with other components on the mainboard. But these other components must be capable to the desired speed.

So, you want the fastest processor, watch the following. </font> CPU-class: you want the modernest architecture.</font> Internal cpu speed: as high as possible.</font> Level 2 - cache: as large as possible.</font> Level 2 - speed (Mhz): if possible, equal to the internal CPU-speed.</font> External speed (FSB): if possible the highest available speed.</font>Of course, the motherboard and all its components has to be suited for the cpu of your choice. You cannot upgrade an old motherboard (2 years is old) with the fastest cpu of latest architecture of today.
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Olvidarse
02-02-05, 04:49
Originally posted by joseph:
It is not only the Mhz numbers, but as well the processor-architecture that counts just as much.
Internal speed = the beloved Mhz, the speed in wich the cpu (Central Processing Unit, or: the Processor) makes its calculations.
Level 1 -cache = the first in-between memory it uses to temporarily store temporary parts of calculations. The fastest and smallest memory in the processor.
Level 2- cache= this exists, to communicate as fast as possible with the Ram memory modules on the motherboard. The larger this temporary memory is, the better is the performance of the cpu. The dimension of this Level 2 - cache is highly contributing to the price-differences (what you pay for them) between cpu's.
Also important is the speed of it. At best, the communication between the cpu and the level 2 - cache is exactly as fast as the internal speed of the cpu.
In case of cheaper cpu-models, the speed of the Level 2 - cache often is decreased to half; the processor becomes not only cheaper but also slower.
Also counts the Front Side Bus (FSB), the external speed of the cpu. We see cpu's with 100, 133, 200, 266, 400, 533, and 800 Mhz FSB, or higher. The higher this FSB speed is, the faster the cpu can communicate with other components on the mainboard. But these other components must be capable to the desired speed.

So, you want the fastest processor, watch the following. </font> CPU-class: you want the modernest architecture.</font> Internal cpu speed: as high as possible.</font> Level 2 - cache: as large as possible.</font> Level 2 - speed (Mhz): if possible, equal to the internal CPU-speed.</font> External speed (FSB): if possible the highest available speed.</font>Of course, the motherboard and all its components has to be suited for the cpu of your choice. You cannot upgrade an old motherboard (2 years is old) with the fastest cpu of latest architecture of today.
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Thank you very much, Joseph! I've been comparing THIS (http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/115458/rpem/ccd/productDetailSpecification.do#tabs) computer to THIS (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1099390027970&skuId=6988147&productCategoryId=cat01172&type=product) computer. It would cost me the same to buy a computer rather than build one (plus the grief of building a computer).

Joseph
02-02-05, 08:47
I personally would build. But i can understand you don't want that ("the grief").
To compare these two:
</font> Comparing these two, it is not enough to only look at the processors used, but you must look at these two products.</font> The Sony Vaio has the advantage it is a complete product from the renowned and trustworthy brand Sony, the Vaio series is a really quality product. The other cannot claim that.</font> Sony Vaio is clear about it's inside. It says it has a harddiskdrive of 200 MB. The other doen't even talk about a harddiskdrive, so expect it to be pretty small.</font> Mind you, both have only 'Integrated' (onboard chip) graphics and sound. Intel's 915G (used in the Sony Vaio) has proven it is not bad at all, it can perform, and it may use 'up to 224MB of shared memory. The other computer's spec doesn't name the chip but just talks about videomemory. And the little 64 MB is hardly enough for WindowsXP to operate in full glory (128 MB being the absolute bottomline, 256 MB being recommendable as bottomline).</font> Sony Vaio has only two (2) expansion slots, plus they are PCI-Express. The other pc's spec doesn't even talk about that part.</font> I could as well stop here with comparison: i wouldn't recommend both. You see: as they are now, they will both be good enough for office use, the Sony performing better in graphics and movies, but they both are not equipped for today's videogames at all. You will get into problems soon. The Gateway will give up first. :D</font> The reason why the available expansion slots are very important, is that when you take the Sony, first thing you will have to do is buy a real videocard (PCI-express, and let it be a good one, cost around $250,-. Then you will have left only one slot. You may need that one for a sound card. Because onboard sound and graphics chips take away some of the performance of the cpu, it is always recommendable to let those important tasks be done by real cards.</font> Be aware, that both pc's are sold without monitor. So you will have to use your old monitor, or buy a new monitor too. And don't look for a pc in this pricerange that includes a monitor, because the pc's specs will go even more down.</font>Quick conclusion: from these two, it definately is the Sony. But they both are not equipped for performing (Directx9, like TR:AOD ;) ) games. You'll have to raise your budget in any way.

Joseph
02-02-05, 08:53
Btw your remark: It would cost me the same to buy a computer rather than build one (plus the grief of building a computer). is not true. In comparison building is cheaper, or rather "more worth for your money" than buying. In both cases, for a good pc you'll need more money than this budget of your choice.
To "(plus the grief of building a computer)" i would say: well let your computer be assembled by a renown company then, like DELL. You choose the parts that you want in it, and they build it for you. Olvidarse Custom. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Olvidarse
02-02-05, 09:10
Well I sorta estimated what it will cost to build a computer, and it came to about $1000. The gateway actually has one AGP 8x slot on the official specs from their site. HERE (http://support.gateway.com/s/PC/R/600GxSeries/4410sp3.shtml) are the full specs of the computer. I was planning on buying an ATI 9800 Pro card, so I'll ask the sales guy how big the power supply is. We already have a few LCD monitors lying around the house. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

About the grief: I bought a 512 MB stick of ram but I forgot to ground myself so the ram died. I also bought a video card some time ago, but at the time I didn't know my computer needed an AGP slot, so now the video card is lying in a box in the garage.

Joseph
02-02-05, 09:45
Aha! That is better, Olvidarse. Now i see this, i say it looks good. Now i say the Gateway is the better choice, because of: </font> AMD Athlon™ 64 3400+
2.40 GHz, 512 K L2 cache, 1600 MHz system bus speed</font> 200 GB (7200 RPM, 2 MB cache)</font> Network - 10/100 Mbps Ethernet LAN</font> Slots 1 AGP 8x
3 PCI (2 available)</font>BUT DO buy the videocard!!! Make that a 9800XT if you can find one, rather than the Pro. Also please please buy a soundcard, Creative Audigy2 very recommended. This total, would make a very well equipped pc! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif
(Later, you may put in an extra 512 MB DDR (PC3200) to total 1024 MB, and a second harddrive)

Olvidarse
02-02-05, 10:00
Thanks Joseph. Hopefully the computer will come with a capable power supply. Now I'll never be fooled by those salesmen who try to sell non-upgradeable products. :D

Joseph
02-02-05, 10:12
Yes you're right. That's very important: the power supply. Ati 9800 Pro or XT are very hungry. If it's not powerful enough, just make it(that is: buy) 400 or 450 watts to be sure. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Apofiss
02-02-05, 17:05
I would advise GeForce 6xxx series graphic-card, cos it has ShaderModel3.

•6200*
•6600
•6800

Joseph
02-02-05, 18:57
Which is rarely used in nowadays games. It is extremely complex, and slowing the performance. Most games (also those in developement) stick to shader model 2.0.

Apofiss
02-02-05, 19:15
Yes that's true (eh...they even would like to stick to SM1.4), but FarCry and Painkiller uses PS3.0 (tested) and games like F.E.A.R and S.T.A.L.K.E.R will use SM3.0 when they will come out and these aren't the only ones...hmm maybe TR7 will use SM3.0 too http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif ...and 3dmark05 requires SM3.0 for optimal use (to pass all tests). Anyway, I wouldn't advise to buy ATI Radeon X800 series (no SM3.0 Why!!??) ATI cards are very good - always more powerful than nVidia cards unless we are talking about SM3.0. Lets see when X900XT (with SM3.0)or something will come out...

Joseph
02-02-05, 20:14
FarCry and Painkiller use SM 3.0??? where did you get that info? I know no better than they use SM 2.0. Why Ati doesn't use 3.0? I read that they said it is a "waste of transistors :rolleyes: ..." ;)

Apofiss
02-02-05, 20:32
When you update FarCry and Painkiller with latest patch then engine uses SM3.0 (PS3.0 and ...) Few latest games uses it too, like LOTR: Battle For Middle Earth (I think)

Joseph
02-02-05, 20:48
Aha! Yes, i see. My games are patched, but i didn't notice that info. Hmmm... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif , maybe you're right.
I'm waiting anyway before i build my new one this year. X900XT sounds good. It will be born sooner or later.
I already have the case (Lian Li PC-71), and the soundcard (Creative Audigy2 ZS).
My pc-parts shop finally received in stock the famous ASUS P5AD2 Premium which i like! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif But i'm not even sure if i go for Intel again, or for AMD 64 bit this time. Like Olvidarse does (in this thread).
Ahhh....boy's-talk. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif :D

[ 02. February 2005, 21:50: Message edited by: joseph ]

Apofiss
02-02-05, 21:30
Joseph. What's inside your PC atm? (CPU, RAM, MB, V-card......) :rolleyes:

Yeah this ASUS MB (Intel 925X) is good, BUT it costs $250 or more!

[ 02. February 2005, 22:38: Message edited by: Apofiss ]

Joseph
02-02-05, 22:20
Pentium4 ~2.66 Ghz / FSB 533 Mhz
ASUS P4PE
1024 MB pc 2700 DDR Ram
ATI Radeon9700Pro/128MB
Creative Audigy2
4 x 80 GB (8MB cache) WD 7200rpm hdd
Plextor CD-RW 48/24/48A
Mat****a dvd-player
...in a beautiful Lian-Li PC61 case!
Eizo T965 + T765 (Ati card supports 2 monitors)
Klipsch Promedia 2.1 THX speakers
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[ 02. February 2005, 23:26: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
02-02-05, 22:37
(Apofiss:) "Yeah this ASUS MB (Intel 925X) is good, BUT it costs $250 or more!
" Yes it is expensive (€245,- here)... so i'll wait anyway, i'll take the time.

Apofiss
02-02-05, 22:56
Joseph. Well insides of yor PC are quite impressive! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Olvidarse. If you want to buy a new video card then at first look here (http://www.digital-daily.com/video/3dmark-2005pro/index04.htm)

[ 02. February 2005, 23:57: Message edited by: Apofiss ]

Olvidarse
02-02-05, 23:57
Here are my laptop specs. As you can see, I really need to update. :D

Operating System: Windows XP Service Pack 1
Language: English
System Manufacturer: TOSHIBA
System Model: Satellite A15
BIOS: v1.30
Processor: Mobile Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz, ~2.4GHz
Memory: 494MB RAM
Page File: 186MB used, 586MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
DX Setup Parameters: Not found

Joseph
03-02-05, 19:38
Originally posted by Apofiss:
Joseph. Well insides of yor PC are quite impressive! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Thanks Apo. But, well... it is outdated (Cpu: no Hyperthreading, and merely 533 Mhz FSB; the motherboard with chipset (i845); Ram (pc 2700); videocard (9700Pro), ... new hardwares can perform more than 2 times as fast! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/yikes.gif -which makes me so unhappy. :(

[ 06. February 2005, 20:18: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
03-02-05, 19:47
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Here are my laptop specs. As you can see, I really need to update. :D

Operating System: Windows XP Service Pack 1
Language: English
System Manufacturer: TOSHIBA
System Model: Satellite A15
BIOS: v1.30
Processor: Mobile Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz, ~2.4GHz
Memory: 494MB RAM
Page File: 186MB used, 586MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
DX Setup Parameters: Not found Olvidarse, well it is a laptop. As in many cases of laptop, the 'mobile' (='lite') processor is a weakness. Processor: Mobile Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz, ~2.4GHz
as i explained above in this thread, etcetera.
What you are planning to buy as update is very good! Laptop can be handy while traveling. Desktop pc (as described) is much more quality! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

laracroft8290
03-02-05, 20:05
Don't knock mobile processors, esp those from
AMD that can be overclocked with less heat.

Olvidarse have you decided on what you want?

Olvidarse
04-02-05, 06:30
Originally posted by laracroft8290:
Don't knock mobile processors, esp those from
AMD that can be overclocked with less heat.

Olvidarse have you decided on what you want? Yeah, I'm planning on buying the Gateway this Saturday. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

laracroft8290
04-02-05, 19:41
Didn't gateway just start selling AMD based systems in stores like Circuit City? The reason I ask is because on their website there isn't a mention of an AMD based system....except that page you have.

Upgrade the video btw http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Joseph
04-02-05, 20:03
Upgrade the video btw I already said that to Olvidarse on page 1, LC8290. ;) He absolutely must do that. He knows. He will. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif :D

[ 04. February 2005, 21:04: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
05-02-05, 00:19
I'm getting the computer tonight. It's better by leaps and bounds than my laptop configuration at the moment, so I can hold off upgrading until TR7 comes out. Meanwhile, prices for video cards will drop or the technology will develop. I don't play any other computer games, so it's not that urgent http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif .

EDIT: I didn't get the computer today because they said the AGP slot was pink. They were too lazy to take off the security tag to open up the computer, so I'll go back tomorrow. Also, the power supply is only 280 Watts. :mad: I'll have to open it (not too keen on that), take out the current power supply, then put in the new one. I'll be sure to ask you guys for help when I start the project. ;)

:confused: Why is the AGP slot pink, and what does this mean? Is it the same as a brown one, only just colored pink? They didn't state whether or not it had an AGP slot on the Circuit City website, but they did on the Gateway. However, Gateway might be a little shifty because they recently filed for bankruptcy. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

[ 05. February 2005, 04:00: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Olvidarse
05-02-05, 22:27
Ugh, it turns out I'm not buying this computer any time soon. We wasted three hours waiting at Circuit City for a tech guy to properly help us, but we just got fed up and left. One guy lied about returning it for a full refund (as well as many other aspects about computers). Another guy wouldn't open the store computer model because it would void the warranty, although they called another Circuit City guy who opened the same computer. The details on the computer are all hazy. The official site said that it had an AGP 8x, but we had an Emachine that said it had "Intel Extreme Graphics AGP," but of of course it didn't. Since Gateway belongs to Emachine, I'm not sure I can trust their computers.

So if I open the computer at home to see if the computer has an AGP 8x slot, I void the warranty and will not be able to return it. ARGH this whole thing has mad me angry!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 05. February 2005, 23:29: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
05-02-05, 23:02
There actually exist computers in stores which have a sticker on, that says that if case is opened, the warranty is void. Completely B.S. !!! And you are totally right Olvidarse. Customers have the right to look inside before buying, just to check what is inside. Especially when the shop claims there is an "Intel Extreme Graphics AGP" inside. :D For those who don't get it: Intel Extreme Graphics is a (advanced) onboard graphicschip, but AGP (Accelerated Graphics Port) means there is a real graphic card in the AGP slot.

[ 06. February 2005, 00:19: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
05-02-05, 23:18
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Why is the AGP slot pink, and what does this mean? Is it the same as a brown one, only just colored pink? They didn't state whether or not it had an AGP slot on the Circuit City website, but they did on the Gateway. Sorry i missed this post today Olvidarse.
The AGP slot can be pink, brown, black, blue , red, white coloured, depending per brand. It is just different coloured than the other slots to label their difference. All modern motherboards (since Pentium2) have an AGP slot.
The issue should not be 'whether or not it had an AGP slot', but whether or not there is a graphic card placed in it. Well it clearly says on THIS PAGE (http://support.gateway.com/s/PC/R/600GxSeries/4410sp3.shtml) : Video S3 Graphics UniChrome™ Pro IGP
64 MB DDR shared video memory so, that is a onboard chip. That is why i advised you to build in a good graphic card. Like the Radeon 9800XT. I said it is hungry, and you already thought about it yourself, that you probably need a new power supply also. And that proves to be true: 280 watt isn't enough for the pc plus the card.

[ 06. February 2005, 00:21: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 02:04
Originally posted by joseph:
Especially when the shop claims there is an "Intel Extreme Graphics AGP" inside. :D For those who don't get it: Intel Extreme Graphics is a (advanced) onboard graphicschip, but AGP (Accelerated Graphics Port) means there is a real graphic card in the AGP slot. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/Olvidarse/Webbings/Emachine.jpg

My sister's Emachine says it has an AGP (on the sticker), but there's no AGP slot inside of the computer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/Olvidarse/Webbings/Emachine1.jpg

The annoying "VOID" sticker.

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 02:13
Originally posted by joseph:
All modern motherboards (since Pentium2) have an AGP slot.
The issue should not be 'whether or not it had an AGP slot', but whether or not there is a graphic card placed in it. Well it clearly says on THIS PAGE (http://support.gateway.com/s/PC/R/600GxSeries/4410sp3.shtml) : </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Video S3 Graphics UniChrome™ Pro IGP
64 MB DDR shared video memory so, that is a onboard chip. That is why i advised you to build in a good graphic card. Like the Radeon 9800XT. I said it is hungry, and you already thought about it yourself, that you probably need a new power supply also. And that proves to be true: 280 watt isn't enough for the pc plus the card. </font>[/QUOTE]Does that mean the gateway has an AGP slot? :confused: Aren't integrated graphics built into the computer? HERE's (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/chipsets/k8-series/k8m800/) a link to the UniChrome graphics page. The reason why I'm hesitant is because Gateway joined Emachines, and this computer was released recently (December 2004).

I have found that most computers priced $700 and below do not have an AGP 8x slot. This way, they make you pay more to get an upgradeable computer.

laracroft8290
06-02-05, 04:28
eMachines was acquired by Gateway. Gateway owns the eMachines brand. Are you wanting to purchase in-store only?

[ 06. February 2005, 05:31: Message edited by: laracroft8290 ]

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 04:38
Yes, I'm opting to purchase in-store.

Tramp
06-02-05, 09:45
Olividarse

I would not touch an eMachine if you paid me. I bought one before I got my Packard Bell (really small but all I could get). The first eMachine died in 7 months it was replaced under warranty and the second one only lasted 3 months. It appears that they may be using second hand hardware when they build the machines (or at least the company in Australia does). This company to me was a complete rip off. My stepbrother is a computer technician (both building and programming for very big companies) and when he was still going to Uni he worked for Gateway. He would not get me a computer through them and told me to go to a bigger company (not Compaq as they cannot be upgraded). I agree with Joseph you would be better off going to Dell and get them to custom build you a computer if you don't want to do it yourself. When I got my new computer made it was either through Dell or another company I found locally. Went to the local company (Impact Systems) Built me a bigger computer for less that an equivalent Dell.
Have had problems with it but it was not their fault it was a software problem. Fixed it myself recently. Like Joseph I have a Lian Li case I think it's the PC-60HlP with extra fans in Black and Silver. The reason I went with Impact is they are local (less than 20km away) All repairs are done inhouse as they are agents for Microsoft, Intel, AMD, well really all the major hardware and peripheral manufacturers.

Also what Joseph said about warranty is true it is total BS that you void the warranty if you open the computer. Impact (who are distributors) told me that in actual fact most of the companies give 3 years warranty on things like motherboards etc but you are led to believe you only get 12 months. My Lian Li case has toggle screws and a key at the side so that you don't have to undo screws with a screwdriver to allow easy access the insides. I get really P'd off with computer companies that tell you a whole load of BS to get a sale. (Especially when you are an older female and they think that you are totally Blonde.)
P.S. The Sh*tty little Packard Bell was better than the eMachine. :mad: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 10:36
Hmm, thanks for the information Tramp http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif .

We own two eMachines, but we haven't had any problems with them. One of them is about 2.5 years old and it still runs very well for 256 MB of RAM. The other one (my sister's) is about 1 year old. Her computer is really slow, however she uses a P2P system and has a boatload of spyware. Right now I'm using a Toshiba laptop with a Celeron processor, and it runs as fast as my other sister's Compaq Pentium 4 computer.

I'm starting to realize how discreet eMachines and Gateway are about their computers. Even their own websites have little information about their PCs. Circuit City had little information on their products, and fumbled on the warranty policy. It makes little sense on selling a combination of RAM and a new computer since opening up the computer to install the RAM would void the warranty.

I'm also trying to learn how to build my own computer. I've been looking at Newegg.com and Tomshardware.com for information on parts, but I'm still really confused. The Gateway computer had a really nice processor at a low price. It would be nice to know if it had an AGP 8x, because manufacturers can skip on essential parts to create some sort of computer monopoly on the market. Only the higher priced (+$1000) computers have clear specifications. Usually computers below the $700 price point come with a small power supply and only PCI slots.

Well I'll see in the coming weeks. Is Impactcomputers.com related to your Impact distributors?

Tramp
06-02-05, 11:02
No I don't think so. They started here in Blacktown about 14 years ago as basically a one person company. They usually build business computers and mine was the first mix of gaming and home business type. They also have a subsidiary doing Web Design. Your computers in US are so much cheaper than ours. We have so many government duties on them. Mine was AUD$4000 but that was everything. Windows XP Home OEM Version, Norton Anti-Virus OEM, Microsoft Office Small Business Edition. I have only an NVidia Geforce 4 MX440 128bit AGP Graphics Card, Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS, Star Office 5.2 but it has dual 120g hard drives in Serial ATA's so I am not operating a dual boot system. One hard drive runs Win98SE and is also 120g. It's a Pentium 4 3.2g 1024DDR
It also came with Audigy Surround Sound Speakers, a 15" CMV LCD screen, Microsoft Multimedia Keyboard and a Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical Mouse plus a lot of other software. It also has a DVD-RW and a separate DVD player so I can copy DVD to DVD they are Mitsubishi Diamond Data. Inside there is room for about another 5 hard drives and a second floppy. The Lian Li cases are quite big but there is endless room for upgrading. Plus extra fans to keep the processor cool. It also is ready for Ethernet and Firewire, plus it can be connected to a TV via AV cables. I wanted to make sure it was set up to make upgrades simple when I had the money to do them.
Dell have on their website a quotation area where you figure out what you want and it costs it out for you. Here in Australia if you order it over the net quite often they double drive size for free. It might be worth seeing what your options are that way you don't have to order straight away just work out the quote and if you decide to go that way go back in using the reference no.

Joseph
06-02-05, 13:55
Originally posted by Olvidarse:I have found that most computers priced $700 and below do not have an AGP 8x slot. This way, they make you pay more to get an upgradeable computer. Ah! I think you're confused by the '8x', Olvidarse. As i said, all motherboards have an AGP slot. Only the 'AGP 8x' means a graphics accelleration of 8x enabled on the motherboard. But it has no effect on performance of a video game. Since the RAM memory sizes of 128, or 256 MB on a graphicscard they can hold all the textures of a videogame, so there is practically no difference between 2x and 4x, or 8x.
What is important and effective: Be sure you build in a card with 128 or 256 MB on it. If you build on a motherboard of today with AGP slot, it will be 4x. Or you build on a motherboard with PCI-E slot, and put in a PCI-E card.

[ 06. February 2005, 14:57: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
06-02-05, 14:17
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by joseph:
Especially when the shop claims there is an "Intel Extreme Graphics AGP" inside. :D For those who don't get it: Intel Extreme Graphics is a (advanced) onboard graphicschip, but AGP (Accelerated Graphics Port) means there is a real graphic card in the AGP slot. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/Olvidarse/Webbings/Emachine.jpg

My sister's Emachine says it has an AGP (on the sticker), but there's no AGP slot inside of the computer.

</font>[/QUOTE]:confused: Where do you see the letters "AGP" on the sticker? I don't. I read it says: "Intel Extreme Graphics 845GV" - and that is the Intel chipset 845 version with a graphics part in it. It is 'onboard graphics'. No big deal, only interesting for office pc's as it is a cheap solution. You can play average movies, and simple games. But for serious gaming (esp. nowadays DirectX9 games) it is low performance when performing at all.
In my pc i have the ASUS P4PE motherboard, which has the Intel 845 chipset on it (without the graphics). 1½ years ago it was the newest, today Intel is 3 generations further: via 865, 875, it is now chipsetfamily 915 / 925 (on motherboards for cpu's with socket 775)...
Any average graphics card with 64 MB memory on it placed in the AGP slot of such a motherboard will perform better than the standard onboard chip. Any graphics onboardchip places a load on the cpu, and uses ('shared') ram memory of the pc. Whereas a real graphics card does all its work on its own. That is why also a soundcard is so important and a onboard soundchip is never in the least interesting.

[ 06. February 2005, 17:17: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
06-02-05, 15:52
Originally posted by Tramp:
Windows XP Home OEM Version, Norton Anti-Virus OEM, Microsoft Office Small Business Edition. I have only an NVidia Geforce 4 MX440 128bit AGP Graphics Card, Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS, Star Office 5.2 but it has dual 120g hard drives in Serial ATA's so I am not operating a dual boot system. One hard drive runs Win98SE and is also 120g.... ...but you don't have a dual boot system, Tramp? You have 2 hard drives, and 2 operating systems. No? :confused:

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 16:48
Originally posted by joseph:
:confused: Where do you see the letters "AGP" on the sticker? I don't. I read it says: "Intel Extreme Graphics 845GV" - and that is the Intel chipset 845 version with a graphics part in it. It is 'onboard graphics'. Sorry the picture wasn't clear enough. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Webbings/AGP.jpg

I meant that computer companies won't even include a motherboard with any type of AGP slot. Just maybe 2-3 free PCI slots for anything $700 or less. Or at least I think I'm correct because the ads never mention any sort of AGP slot for anything that costs below $700. I've never opened one up because of the void policy. ;)

Joseph
06-02-05, 17:05
Thanks Olvidarse for the sticker. It is nonsense what it says: onboard chip AGP. :D

Joseph
06-02-05, 17:11
A motherboard with NO AGP slot? If it is not one of the newest (a PCI-Express motherboard), there must be a AGP slot on it, or it is practically not good.

[ 06. February 2005, 19:40: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 18:20
It is difficult to find the AMD 64 3400+ processor, so do you think the AMD 64 3200+ will suit me well? The difference in prices seem to be about $100-130. I'm not a PC enthusiast, so will the difference matter?

Joseph
06-02-05, 18:34
AMD 64 3200+ should really suit you well! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

The difference is mainly that the other one is their current more top (more expensive) model.

[ 06. February 2005, 19:39: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 21:39
Do you know how the Windows Media Center Edition OS operates? Can I use it as a conventional PC, but with media center capabilities?

Joseph
06-02-05, 22:17
Yes. But users of Windows Media would say it is this way: use it as a media center, and also with conventional PC capabilities. ;)

[ 06. February 2005, 23:18: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
06-02-05, 22:20
Bur if you are planning to buy one: the average Media Center PC's i saw don't have a very good videocard for gaming.

Apofiss
06-02-05, 22:43
Olvidarse. The best to do is to buy all PC parts separately (MB, CPU, HDD, RAM, VC, Box, DVD-RW, SoundCard and that is all) Of course you will get warranty on each part [1,2 or 3 years]...

Tramp
06-02-05, 22:57
Joseph

No I am not running a dual boot system. I run 2 separate Hard Drives in a Lian Li SATA Mobile Rack. They are electronic key operated so when I want to run XP I lock that rack in and when I want to run Win98 I lock that rack in. That way I have no conflicts with dual boot. See Below


http://img207.exs.cx/img207/4376/rh3223ro.jpg

An apologies my case is not a Lian Li it is a Prescott FortuneTec

http://img64.exs.cx/img64/527/6a21bag0yn.th.jpg (http://img64.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img64&image=6a21bag0yn.jpg)

Joseph
06-02-05, 23:18
Interesting, Tramp! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif
Could you tell more about this system, how this works practically, and what it costs?
I have no problem whatsoever with my dual boot, but maybe this could be an alternative for people who don't want to go into 'dual boot' or 'virtual drive'?

[ 07. February 2005, 00:19: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 23:18
Actually, I was browsing parts for building a computer, and it came to about $1260.

450 watt power supply - $70
160 GB HD - $130
Motherboard - $100
AMD Athlon 64 3400+ processor - $200
512 MB DDR PC3200 400 Mhz- $80
-R/-RW DVD dual burner - $80
4-5 cooling fans - $25
ATI Radeon 9800 128 MB pro - $220
10/100 PCI Ethernet card - $18
Case - $150
Windows XP OS - $107
Shipping - $70 (ambiguous estimate)
Wire - $10 (not really sure)

Total: $1260

If I buy retail, it would come to about $1099 for nearly the same computer.

If I buy eBay (I'm aware of the risks), it would come to about $1059 for nearly the same computer.

Anyone with experience, please correct/add or subtract supplies for the computer. I'm pretty new to the art of computer building/browsing, so don't bash my assessment please.
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Joseph
06-02-05, 23:29
Pretty accurate list i would say. :D
I have to walk maybe 1000 metres to the shop where i buy my computerparts. I can hold them in my hands before buying. Also, i don't browse the internet for specific parts. The best "No Nonsense" parts usually sooner or later land in this shop. I'm never worrying about this 'limitation'. Most important for me is that i physically see what i buy, can talk about it with the shopguys, can walk back returning to the shop with the item if i'm not satisfied, etc. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

[ 07. February 2005, 00:30: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 23:36
Originally posted by joseph:
Pretty accurate list i would say. :D
I have to walk maybe 1000 metres to the shop where i buy my computerparts. I can hold them in my hands before buying. Also, i don't browse the internet for specific parts. The best "No Nonsense" parts usually sooner or later land in this shop. I'm never worrying about this 'limitation'. Most important for me is that i physically see what i buy, can talk about it with the shopguys, can walk back returning to the shop with the item if i'm not satisfied, etc. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif We don't have that sort of shop over here, so I had to look on Newegg.com. I dunno, I was hoping to buy from ebay since the seller has good feedback and an actual 800 phone number.

HERE's (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=52477&item=5162673807&rd=1) the eBay listing.

[ 07. February 2005, 00:38: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
06-02-05, 23:46
Hmmm... not bad (also the comments).
But: contains (Geforce)FX5200. Again you would want a better graphic card, Olvidarse.

Joseph
06-02-05, 23:48
Bundled Items: Keyboard, Mouse, Network Card, Speakers Call them on their 800 to ask if the monitor is included? ;)

Tramp
06-02-05, 23:49
The rack inside the computer has the male interface plugged into it and the rack itself has the hard drive screwed into it with the female plug of the interface. There is a fan also in the rack to keep the hard drive cool. When you push the hard drive home and turn the key the interface and the power lock into it. Then boot up your computer and you are up and running. It then works the same as a single drive computer. Both my hard drives are 120gb. It has 2.99ghz 1gb of ram. Pentium 4 CUP 3hgz with 1024 DDR. The whole unit cost me just under AUD$4000 that included all the software and hardware, monitor (LCD) keyboard, mouse and speakers. Intel X86 series processor. Texas instruments OHCI compliant IEEE I394 Host Controller. NVidia XFX 128bit 8x AGP Graphics Card. FireConnect 4300. I (with my limited knowledge of computers) designed it and had Impact build it. Was restricted on price so it doesn't have really top of the range hardware but it is very adequate for what I want. Both DVD's (1 WR 1 player) and Mitsubishi Diamond Data. It has a 56K internal modem and is ethernet ready.

I had heard that some people had had problems running a dual boot system so I opted for separate drives and Impact informed me about the SATA Racks and then went in that direction.

[ 07. February 2005, 00:51: Message edited by: Tramp ]

Olvidarse
06-02-05, 23:53
Originally posted by joseph:
Hmmm... not bad (also the comments).
But: contains (Geforce)FX5200. Again you would want a better graphic card, Olvidarse. Of course I'm going to update the videocard http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif . The total price of $1059 would include the price of the video card.

Edit: the same computer you see on the listing costs $1024 in retail stores (with the fx5200 card).

[ 07. February 2005, 00:55: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
07-02-05, 00:24
Tramp: this idea of a 'rack' pc is a stroke of a genius! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif :D ('it costs something, but then you'll have something', a translation of a dutch saying. ;) ) Fantastic!

Olvidarse: smart thinking! :D However? Do you know if the power supply has enough watts for your Radeon 9800 Pro?
You don't need a monitor because you 'have some lying around in the house' don't you? :D

Tramp
07-02-05, 01:04
Yes Joseph I thought it was a great idea too. Over there it would probably be a lot cheaper than in Aus. as we have some pretty high import duties. I think it was around AUD$200 for the rack. Lian Li put them out (one of the distributors) and they have about 12 in the range. Ranging from 7200rpm to 15000rpm there are quite a few other companies putting them out as well. Just look under SATA or Serial ATA. I'm sure it saves a lot of conflict problems.

PS My laptop is fantastic too

LG Aust (http://www.lge.com.au/md/product/prodcategorylist.do?actType=detail&currPage=1&categoryId=0000060302&parentCategoryId=0000000603&categoryLevel=4&productId=1100000348&productImage=&selectModel=1100000348)

Joseph
07-02-05, 01:54
Naahhh, the laptop, hm...
But the rack-pc...!!! :eek:

Tramp
07-02-05, 02:26
The laptop is really handy. We have a computer program to run bird shows. It processes everything for us. Entry forms, cage stickers, place cards, reports, costings. It saves about 5 people doing hand written paperwork for approx 4 hours on the day of the show and me on my own about 2 days solid before the show.

By the way the graphics card in it is a Raedon 9700 (I think thats the model). Tomb Raider 3 plays really good on it.

Joseph
07-02-05, 02:38
By the way the graphics card in it is a Raedon 9700 (I think thats the model). Tomb Raider 3 plays really good on it. No it isn't, not on the product you linked us to.

The laptop is really handy. We have a computer program to run bird shows. It processes everything for us. Entry forms, cage stickers, place cards, reports, costings. It saves about 5 people doing hand written paperwork for approx 4 hours on the day of the show and me on my own about 2 days solid before the show.
But that's a very good description of how useful an office pc can be. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Olvidarse
07-02-05, 03:24
Yeah, electronics in the US are very inexpensive. I remember watching a news report on how there was a spike in the amount of foreign tourists during the Christmas season. They noted that the tourists brought in a lot of foreign capital - from iPods to digital cameras. However, there is a huge lag from when new technology is developed to when we see it on the market.

Tramp
07-02-05, 03:43
I'm not sure what the currency exchange is at the moment between US$ and AUD$ but US$1 is roughly worth nearly twice what AUD$1 is so your computer would be around AUD$2000. Yes we can buy systems for around AUD$1200 but they are like my Packard Bell with onboard Graphics and Sound Cards. No AGP slots only PCI and Graphics cards are really hard to get for PCI. Very poor speakers and very basic monitor, and only 20g hard drive. Believe me the lag you see when new technology is developed and when we see it has no comparison. You definately get it a lot quicker than we do.

Olvidarse
07-02-05, 03:58
What do you think about THIS (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5161703693&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT) computer? It's refurbished, but it looks good and it's cheap.

Olvidarse
07-02-05, 04:03
Originally posted by Tramp:
I'm not sure what the currency exchange is at the moment between US$ and AUD$ but US$1 is roughly worth nearly twice what AUD$1 is so your computer would be around AUD$2000. Yes we can buy systems for around AUD$1200 but they are like my Packard Bell with onboard Graphics and Sound Cards. No AGP slots only PCI and Graphics cards are really hard to get for PCI. Very poor speakers and very basic monitor, and only 20g hard drive. Believe me the lag you see when new technology is developed and when we see it has no comparison. You definately get it a lot quicker than we do. Sorry that your computer options are limited http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/hug.gif . It sounds like importing a system would probably be cheaper; what's AUD$200 when you can get a really good system compared to what's on your market?

Tramp
07-02-05, 04:07
It looks good but I am always wary about 2nd hand computers (have been taken for a ride before). Companies selling 2nd hand computers in Australia are pretty shonky (translation = their crooks) I don't know what they are like in the US. Personally I think the Cache should be double what it is. i.e. 1024 kb. It's certainly cheap.

Apofiss
07-02-05, 15:57
My version:

400 watt power supply - $20
120 GB HD - $110
Motherboard - $100
AMD Athlon 64 3000+ processor - $150
512 MB DDR PC3200 400 Mhz- $80
DVD-RW DL - $40 - $60
3 cooling fans - $0 (no need, CPU BOX has it already)
GF6600(GT) - $150 - $and more
Case - $0 (use old case)
Windows XP OS - $0 (use illegal http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif )
Shipping - $0 (do it your self)
Wire - $10 (not really sure)

Lets see...hmm...it will be little more than 650 ($). :rolleyes:

Joseph
07-02-05, 16:35
Apofiss' version:

400 watt power supply - $20 Don't buy some cheap power supply, it is very important that the power it delivers to all your expensive parts is very accurate, secure and stable!!!Make that $50,- à $60,-
120 GB HD - $110
Motherboard - $100
AMD Athlon 64 3000+ processor - $150
512 MB DDR PC3200 400 Mhz- $80
DVD-RW DL - $40 - $60
3 cooling fans - $0 (no need, CPU BOX has it already)
GF6600(GT) - $150 - $and more
Case - $0 (use old case)
Windows XP OS - $0 (use illegal http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif )Don't don't don't. Your illegal XP is very very vulnerable because it lacks the important Windows Updates!!!
Shipping - $0 (do it your self) You and i have computerparts - shops nearby, but not everybody is that lucky. ;)
Wire - $10 (not really sure)

laracroft8290
07-02-05, 17:47
I remember seeing that system Tramp has on a tech website. I liked the idea of not having to dual boot, but having two seperate hard drives to boot off of. Pretty nifty idea.

Apofiss
07-02-05, 18:00
Well! :D

400 watt power supply - Gembird 400W [12cm fan] for $30 is very good, stable, quiet...

Windows XP OS - $0 (use illegal ) - eh I never used these updates...to say true - no need. (just think - to spend more than $100 for program - it's madness! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif ) Hey if you want you can download free trial version of WindowsXP 64bit version for FREE from microsoft.com ;)

Joseph
07-02-05, 18:47
Windows XP OS - $0 (use illegal ) - eh I never used these updates...to say true - no need. Wrong idea. Windows is not perfect. The updates are needed to repair the numerous leaks and vulnerablities. Most of them when connected to the internet. There will be not much problems on a machine that is not connected to the internet. So, that means: no Outlook Express, no Internet Explorer, no MSN Messenger, and even when you use other browser and emailprogram, no updated virusdefinitions for your AntiVirus Application, etc... (just think - to spend more than $100 for program - it's madness! ) Well it is the basis for all your other software to run on, so very valuable to you. It's a wonderful composition of code you use daily. The people who made it, like to get paid for it. Normal? In return you receive their updates service to keep your OS as sane as possible. Madness?

Apofiss
07-02-05, 19:16
[it's going offtopic - sorry :D ]

It would be madness for usual home PC user I guess, just think what you can buy for this money $$$! (HDDs, DVDs, etc.) I think legal Windows is good for companies, enterprises and corporations (for full price).

Never mind http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif just thought.

laracroft8290
07-02-05, 21:32
I don't mind paying the $85.00 for Windows. It's when I have to pay $85.00 twice so I can have it on my desktop and my laptop.

Tramp
07-02-05, 22:03
God your luck re price. Windows XP Home here in Australia is about AUD$350 and thats just for 1 licence. A cheap DVD/WR is about $100 on my Packard Bell I went for a BENQ. The cheapest power supply is at least $100. At the moment I have to renew my subscription for Norton, getting it direct from Symantic will cost me $149/3 user to purchase through the shops will cost $228. I am updating to Norton Internet Security instead of just Anti-Virus. When I bought AOD it cost me $100, irony is I got it for free when the new computer was bought as it came free with the NVidia card.
I only have one OEM copy of Windows XP my other 2 computers only have a restore disc, but I only need one as I just replace the Registration No if I need to reload.

PS Joseph my laptop does have a Raedon Graphics Card it comes up in the Device Manager. (Was a special offer)

[ 07. February 2005, 23:08: Message edited by: Tramp ]

Joseph
07-02-05, 22:42
Originally posted by Tramp:
God your luck re price. Windows XP Home here in Australia is about AUD$350 and thats just for 1 licence. A cheap DVD/WR is about $100 on my Packard Bell I went for a BENQ. The cheapest power supply is at least $100. At the moment I have to renew my subscription for Norton, getting it direct from Symantic will cost me $149/3 user to purchase through the shops will cost $228. I am updating to Norton Internet Security instead of just Anti-Virus. When I bought AOD it cost me $100, irony is I got it for free when the new computer was bought as it came free with the NVidia card.
I only have one OEM copy of Windows XP my other 2 computers only have a restore disc, but I only need one as I just replace the Registration No if I need to reload.

PS Joseph my laptop does have a Raedon Graphics Card it comes up in the Device Manager. (Was a special offer) My goodness, you pay much for your software (and hardware) Tramp!
My computerparts-shop 1000 metres away from my home, charges: </font> €99,- for a WinXP Home license.</font> The 'cheapest' power supply there is: POWER SUPPLY ATX 300 Watt € 19,- a more qualified product costs: ToPower 450W 24P-&gt;20P 2Fan € 59,- .</font> Norton Internet Security 2005 Retail € 65,-</font> AOD originally cost €49,95 in the games-sho
ips here, today it is €14,95 or less.</font>


Originally posted by Tramp:

By the way the graphics card in it is a Raedon 9700 (I think thats the model). Your laptop has one of the cards on this page: http://www.ati.com/buy/onboard/mobile/index.html

[ 08. February 2005, 00:41: Message edited by: joseph ]

Tramp
08-02-05, 01:55
I have 2 computer shops about 3 blocks away. One of those is where I got the price for the power unit. That was the first thing to blow up on the first eMachine. Both these shops usually want more for their hardware and software than I have quoted. The prices I have quoted are from Harvey Norman Computers (a large computer retailer) The other main 3 are Tandy, Dick Smith and I also tried HiTech World and they are all around the same price as Harvey Norman. Now you know one reason why I didn't build my own computer as these are the places I would have had to purchase my hardware and software from. The company that made my computer really don't deal with the general public but the retailer I was going to get it through stuffed me around and never placed the order so Impact did it direct. It was actually cheaper for me to get them to build it than for me to do it. Limited amount of suppliers who will sell direct to the public.

Olvidarse
08-02-05, 02:14
Is there a way to check what your motherboard is (ie model number, manufacturer) without opening up the computer?

Joseph
08-02-05, 02:25
Yes Olvidarse. One of them: Belarc Advisor (http://www.belarc.com/free_download.html) http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Olvidarse
08-02-05, 02:36
Is there a way to check the motherboard type in the computer store without downloading anything extra? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

EDIT: Is the "chipset" or "chip type" the same as the "motherboard?" :confused: Sorry for my lack of computer skills. :D

[ 08. February 2005, 04:10: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
08-02-05, 09:32
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Is there a way to check the motherboard type in the computer store without downloading anything extra? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif Ehhh... by asking, in the shop, to the computerguys? If it is a good shop, and the personell have knowledge, they probably can tell you. Often there are good descriptions on folders next to the pc's. Also, look at reknown brands, visit their websites for full descriptions. But, besides that, no. The best way to have full control over the parts and know exactly what is inside your pc, is build yourself. But you would have to gain a bit of knowledge yourself. Read computermagazines, visit hardware websites, etcetera.


EDIT: Is the "chipset" or "chip type" the same as the "motherboard?" :confused: No, but the chipset is very important to watch for what you are looking for.
Intel or AMD cpu? Different types of motherboards.
Do you want a chipset from Intel, SIS, Via, nVidia? Different types and brands of motherboards.

And the chipset type gives an indication if you are looking at an old or new motherboard.
Take, for example the motherboard in my pc.
It is: </font> of the top brand ASUS. It got very good reviews, was often rated highest for speed and stability in tests. I had -and still have- very much confidence in this brand.</font> i wanted a Pentium 4 cpu, so it is a socket 478 motherboard (socket= the square with 478 pin-holes where the cpu with its 478 pins is placed on).</font> with a Intel 'i845' chipset on it, which got very good reviews when it was launched. I didn't want a chipset from another manufacturer (like VIA or SYS or nVidia) on my mobo. I wanted pure Intel chipset for my Intel (Pentium4) cpu.</font> supporting 333Mhz speed of the DDR-Ram, the fastest available at that moment.</font> with 10/100 LAN onboard.</font> 6 x USB 2.0</font>Today, i personally would again look for a ASUS motherboard. I don't know yet if i'll go for Intel or AMD this time.
But in case of Intel, i personally would look for a ASUS motherboard with the Intel i915 or 925 chipset, and socket 775 for the latest Pentium cpu's.
Hey, and i would go for this one:
P5AD2 Premium
-Intel 925X chipset
-Intel LGA775 Pentium 4 CPU
-Dual-Channel DDR2 533
-Intel PAT
-PCI Express Architecture
-Wireless LAN onboard
-Dual Gigabit LAN
-1394b/a
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

But Olvidarse, all this is just an example. It is important to know, that if you see a computer that says it has a Intel 845 chipset in it, you know it is 1½ - 2 years old technology. With all the limitations for the other parts because they will be old technology too.

But, no bad word about 'old' technology. When you would buy today the parts i built my computer of nearly 2 years ago, you would pay less than half the money i have paid, and you would have a very fine performing pc. Only it would be middle-of-the-road speed compared to the latest standards of the latest technology available. It's your choice.

Olvidarse
08-02-05, 23:53
Originally posted by joseph:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Is there a way to check the motherboard type in the computer store without downloading anything extra? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif Ehhh... by asking, in the shop, to the computerguys? If it is a good shop, and the personell have knowledge, they probably can tell you. Often there are good descriptions on folders next to the pc's. Also, look at reknown brands, visit their websites for full descriptions. But, besides that, no. The best way to have full control over the parts and know exactly what is inside your pc, is build yourself. But you would have to gain a bit of knowledge yourself. Read computermagazines, visit hardware websites, etcetera.


EDIT: Is the "chipset" or "chip type" the same as the "motherboard?" :confused: No, but the chipset is very important to watch for what you are looking for.
Intel or AMD cpu? Different types of motherboards.
Do you want a chipset from Intel, SIS, Via, nVidia? Different types and brands of motherboards.

And the chipset type gives an indication if you are looking at an old or new motherboard.
Take, for example the motherboard in my pc.
It is: </font> of the top brand ASUS. It got very good reviews, was often rated highest for speed and stability in tests. I had -and still have- very much confidence in this brand.</font> i wanted a Pentium 4 cpu, so it is a socket 478 motherboard (socket= the square with 478 pin-holes where the cpu with its 478 pins is placed on).</font> with a Intel 'i845' chipset on it, which got very good reviews when it was launched. I didn't want a chipset from another manufacturer (like VIA or SYS or nVidia) on my mobo. I wanted pure Intel chipset for my Intel (Pentium4) cpu.</font> supporting 333Mhz speed of the DDR-Ram, the fastest available at that moment.</font> with 10/100 LAN onboard.</font> 6 x USB 2.0</font>Today, i personally would again look for a ASUS motherboard. I don't know yet if i'll go for Intel or AMD this time.
But in case of Intel, i personally would look for a ASUS motherboard with the Intel i915 or 925 chipset, and socket 775 for the latest Pentium cpu's.
Hey, and i would go for this one:
P5AD2 Premium
-Intel 925X chipset
-Intel LGA775 Pentium 4 CPU
-Dual-Channel DDR2 533
-Intel PAT
-PCI Express Architecture
-Wireless LAN onboard
-Dual Gigabit LAN
-1394b/a
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

But Olvidarse, all this is just an example. It is important to know, that if you see a computer that says it has a Intel 845 chipset in it, you know it is 1½ - 2 years old technology. With all the limitations for the other parts because they will be old technology too.

But, no bad word about 'old' technology. When you would buy today the parts i built my computer of nearly 2 years ago, you would pay less than half the money i have paid, and you would have a very fine performing pc. Only it would be middle-of-the-road speed compared to the latest standards of the latest technology available. It's your choice. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh I was hoping I could've used something like dxdiag.exe or device manager. I'm not sure how to read either of them at the moment.

I decided not to buy a PC from ebay since some components might be missing. I'm not sure how to build either, although I think I'm catching on. I'm probably going to buy retail if the price is right, especially since new processors are going to be unveiled in March/April. Maybe I'll build; I'm stuck choosing the size of the case and the size of the motherboard... all that cooling system, atx, mid-tower, power supply mumbo jumbo.... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Joseph
09-02-05, 00:19
Oh, if THAT is what you meant. :D Of course Olvidarse (smart thinking). In the shop where the pc's are exhibited and ON, you just walk to every single pc's keyboard, grab the mouse and click Start / Run...
You type in:
dxdiag
and click OK.
and open the textfile with Notepad. ;)

Look at the first paragraph, then the paragraph about "Display devices" and the paragraph about sound devices.

And of course you can examine the pc via Device Manager. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

If you only want to know the CPU and the Ram, you just rightclick the "This Computer" icon on Desktop (or its shortcut in the Start Menu) and choose Properties.

But via these ways you will not find info about the motherboard and chipset. You'd need Aida32 or Belarc Advisor..

[ 09. February 2005, 01:23: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
10-02-05, 01:53
So I've been looking at Newegg.com for computer components to build, and what do you guys think of THIS (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-112-051&depa=1) Lian-Li case? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

HERE's (http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3118_7-5122934.html?tag=prmo1) a link to a computer building article on Cnet.com that I'm currently using.

EDIT: What's the difference between an Internal CD/DVD drive and a normal drive?

[ 10. February 2005, 03:09: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
10-02-05, 02:15
Internal CD/DVD drive is one built in the case and connected to the motherboard, as opposed to an external one which is usually connected to the PC via USB cable.
What do you mean by 'normal'?

[ 10. February 2005, 03:17: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
10-02-05, 02:19
I guess "normal" by the CD/DVD drives that didn't include the "internal" in their name. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Is THIS (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=27-154-024&depa=1) the type you can put inside of the Lian Li case and use the outside face of the case to open it? I noticed that there was a button here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Webbings/untitled.jpg

Is that for the internal drive?

[ 10. February 2005, 03:27: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
10-02-05, 02:37
About the Lian-Li case: a B E A U T Y . Here is mine: MY LIAN LI CASE (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-112-040&depa=1) &lt; - - - linkie

And this is the one i have too (bought 4 weeks ago), which is still empty because it is the case where my new pc is going to be built in this year: MY FULL TOWER CASE FOR NEWEST PC (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-112-509&depa=1) &lt; - - - linkie http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

All Lian Li models are extremely well built. You'll love it.
I think your case-model is too expensive. Save the $ 83,- you pay for the extra-deluxe designy-design, for internal parts. :D

[ 10. February 2005, 03:37: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
10-02-05, 02:41
I'll just spend money for the design since I want it to last (don't want the look to grow too old). I have to buy some sort of USB hub right? And all I need to do is connect it to the motherboard?

Joseph
10-02-05, 02:45
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
I guess "normal" by the CD/DVD drives that didn't include the "internal" in their name. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Is THIS (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=27-154-024&depa=1) the type you can put inside of the Lian Li case and use the outside face of the case to open it? I noticed that there was a button here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Webbings/untitled.jpg

Is that for the internal drive? Yes. What you see there (in your red circle), is a forefront door for the cd/dvd-drive to be built in. So that the Lian Li case will keep its design intact even if you'd place in an ugly cd/dvd-player. It is in fact a dummy, but when you'd have built in the player you would use it as a front door before the actual player. the button will touch the real button behind it when you press it. My fulltower case (second link) has that too.
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Olvidarse
10-02-05, 02:52
What type of USB port do you have? I'm thinking about getting an internal USB / multimedia card reader / headphone jack.

Joseph
10-02-05, 02:53
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
I'll just spend money for the design since I want it to last (don't want the look to grow too old). I have to buy some sort of USB hub right? And all I need to do is connect it to the motherboard? No, you don't have to buy a usb hub. Why?
You buy a motherboard that has usb 2.0 connections on it. The Lian-Li case has not only 4 back-side usb-ports, but also 2 at the front; with cables with loose ends, lying in the case. You'll connect the cables to the right plugs on the motherboard.

Your case has: Front Ports: 2 x USB2.0, 2 x Audio, 1 x IEEE 1394 . http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

The all-card reader that you want, you can build that in above the floppy (i guess).
In both my cases, i have 3 'floppy'-size places (as you can see on the pictures. I think a all-card-reader is floppy-size isn't it? So, i just build it it in. On your photo i don't see 3 floppy-size places (only 1). Oh well, i guess you can build it in one of the cd-rom size places.

[ 10. February 2005, 04:02: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
10-02-05, 03:10
Oh, if it already includes USB ports, then I don't think I'll need to include the memory card reader.

Now onto the motherboard.

[ 10. February 2005, 04:38: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Olvidarse
10-02-05, 03:34
OK, here's my list of links of what I plan to buy from Newegg. I'll buy the RAM, the VPU, and the OS from my local store.

Lian-Li Silver ATX Mid Tower Case, Model "PC-V1000" -RETAIL (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=11-112-051&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE)

NU Technology Black 16X DVD+RW/-RW Drive, Model DDW-163 BLK (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=27-154-024&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE)

Seagate 160GB Barracuda 7200.7 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model ST3160023AS, OEM (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=22-148-018&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE)

Thermaltake Silent PurePower, 420W ATX power supply.UL, CSA, TUV, CE Approved. Intel Pentium 4 Compliant (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=17-153-006&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE)

AMD Athlon 64 3400+, 512k L2 Cache, The Only 64-bit Windows Compatible Processor - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-484&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE)

Now I'm really confused on which motherboard to use. Should I buy THIS (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-136-154&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE) motherboard or THIS (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-131-498&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE) motherboard? Note that the Lian-Li case has 7 explansion slots? So confusing... :confused:

[ 10. February 2005, 04:45: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
10-02-05, 19:25
The ASUS is very good! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/asusk8ne.gif

Although this one is newer, much faster FSB, i guess more expensivvee (it is not yet available in my local shop): ASUS A8V-E Deluxe (http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/socket939/a8v-e-d/overview.htm)

Joseph
10-02-05, 19:37
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Now I'm really confused on which motherboard to use. Should I buy THIS motherboard or THIS motherboard? Note that the Lian-Li case has 7 explansion slots? So confusing...
The Lian-Li has 7 expansion-slot spaces. The actual expansion slots are on the motherboard. So, this motherboard has 6. Most motherboards have only 6, it's enough. The 7th in the case, may be used for an extra '1394' connection (which doesn't need a slot on the mobo).
This excellent case is just compatible for all types of motherboard.

You don't have to use all of the slots on the motherboard.

*EDIT: CHECK ALSO PREVIOUS PAGE, OLVIDARSE. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

[ 10. February 2005, 20:43: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
10-02-05, 23:59
Thanks for all the feedback Joseph. :D Now all I have to do is buy the stuff, build it, and pick an OS. Ugh.. I can't believe Windows XP Home Edition costs $200. :confused:

EDIT: Oh wait, nevermind. If I purchase it with my hardware it only costs $92 from Newegg. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[ 11. February 2005, 01:03: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
11-02-05, 00:14
Oh wait, nevermind. If I purchase it with my hardware it only costs $92 from Newegg.
Oh. Well, that's the same policy as in my local computer-shop. I pay €99,- for WindowsXP Home.
And it is a decent policy. Why? Because people can buy complete pc's in stores with WinXP pre-installed (or: it is included in the price), with or without cd. They pay the license.
So, when you build a complete pc you receive the same rights: the low price.
Btw: this way it's even better because you will have the cd, as opposed to those who have it pre-installed, pay for the license, but no cd.

Joseph
11-02-05, 00:22
Olvidarse, you are really going to build? Brave man! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif It is the best thing to do. Please, either: </font> have someone with experience help you, or</font> do it alone, but read all the manuals very carefully and take your time.</font>

Olvidarse
11-02-05, 00:37
Originally posted by joseph:
Olvidarse, you are really going to build? Brave man! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif It is the best thing to do. Please, either: </font> have someone with experience help you, or</font> do it alone, but read all the manuals very carefully and take your time.</font>LOL! I intend to post in this topic when I need help with the motherboard connections or the CPU. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-2.gif

Olvidarse
11-02-05, 01:32
Do you recommend buying anything else, like a hard drive cooler or a CPU cooler (if the included AMD CPU cooler isn't good enough)? Compiling the computer bits to build the computer wasn't as difficult as I thought. :D

Joseph
11-02-05, 01:39
Olvidarse http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif , The coolers: the ones with the cpu's are very good! As well Intel as AMD! Be sure when you buy a cpu to watch the term: 'boxed', then you'll receive the cpu + manufacturer's cooler in a original Intel or AMD box.

Joseph
11-02-05, 01:41
And the hard drive coolers are in the Lian-Li case present. At least, in my 2 models. You only have to connect the wires.

Chug a Bug
16-02-05, 16:21
Originally posted by joseph:
Aha! That is better, Olvidarse. Now i see this, i say it looks good. Now i say the Gateway is the better choice, because of: </font> AMD Athlon™ 64 3400+
2.40 GHz, 512 K L2 cache, 1600 MHz system bus speed</font> 200 GB (7200 RPM, 2 MB cache)</font> Network - 10/100 Mbps Ethernet LAN</font> Slots 1 AGP 8x
3 PCI (2 available)</font>BUT DO buy the videocard!!! Make that a 9800XT if you can find one, rather than the Pro. Also please please buy a soundcard, Creative Audigy2 very recommended. This total, would make a very well equipped pc! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif
(Later, you may put in an extra 512 MB DDR (PC3200) to total 1024 MB, and a second harddrive) Oldivarse I wouldn't skimp on the videocard especially if you want to play graphics-hungry games like Farcry, go for an X800 or a 6800, both are quite power hungry especially the nVidia which needs a 480W PSU! I have the ATI card because the PSU I bought is "only" 460W but personally I wish I still had an nVidia.

I have an AMD 64 3400NC with an X800XT and a couple Maxtor 200gig's with super-quiet fans and PSU and it's fast. I can play FarCry with all the settings maxed out and it hardly notices. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Personally I'd go for XP rather than any other OS and I certainly wouldn't bother with anything less than Win 2000. If you want the cheapest look for an OEM copy-try Ebay.

Good luck ;) it's great fun building your own. Mine looks like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/chug-a-bug/DSCF0020.jpg

Joseph
16-02-05, 16:47
Of course an X800 or a 6800. (Ati Radeon X800XT or a nVidia GF 6800 GT)
They are the best today. Only, these cost 2 times or more than the 9800XT, and Olvidarse has his budget limit. He is also aware, that when he buys parts to build his own, he can buy a OEM XP with it.

The 9800XT still is high end btw, just as my 9700Pro is, playing FarCry at highest settings.
But more important: your pc (what a beauty! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif ) also has a much faster cpu than mine (P4 2.66 Ghz / 533), so together with your expenxive State Of The Art Top Highest End graph card, your FarCry performance is much smoother than here ( in action scenes i often have to put down the resolution to 1024 x 768 :( ).

I'm saving for new equipment this year. I'd like to have dual-core cpu, dual-gpu graph card with 64 pixelpipelines. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif :D

[ 16. February 2005, 18:05: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
17-02-05, 00:51
I haven't built my computer yet because I decided to assemble it during spring break, although the case should arrive by tomorrow.

Should I go with AGP or PCIe? Also, which HD manufacturer do you guys recommend? I've read on Tom's Hardware that my case (Lian Li PC-V1000) best suits SATA because of the small wires. I also need longer wires because the IDE (?) cables are too short in the Lian Li case. Which type (SATA, UATA, IDE, etc) do you guys recommend? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Joseph
17-02-05, 03:09
Olvidarse http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif i'd choose a mobo with pci-express and S-ATA.
Buying today, for the performance, it doesn't matter which you choose: AGP and PCI-e perform equally, no difference. Still: pci-e is the new way. I'd take pci-e for upgrading potential in the near future.

S-ATA , because it too is the new way (again: potential not reached today, so don't expect the hdd's to be faster than the IDE's yet, current Sata's are exactly the same as IDE's only with a Sata interface). Advantage already IS that the cables are much thinner so that's better for the airflow in your case.

Olvidarse
18-02-05, 02:50
My case just came it today, but there's no manual with it. I need to know the specifications for the PSU because the Lian-Li PC-V1000 has a smaller-than-usual PSU slot. Any other Lian-Li owners here know where to find an online manual? :D

Joseph
18-02-05, 03:34
:D Originally from Tom's Hardware Guide:
http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/lianli-v1000_anleitung.jpg
Exemplary till the end. The Lian-Li PC-V1000 comes with well-illustrated instructions Read full article: http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20040607/miditower-32.html

[ 18. February 2005, 04:34: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
18-02-05, 03:46
Hey Olvidarse, it seems that you have to place the motherboard upside down in this case. Turned 180 degrees.

Another full article: amdreview.com (http://www.amdreview.com/reviews.php?rev=lianli_v1000&page=1)

Joseph
18-02-05, 04:32
I hope the Lian Li V1100 case is similar to the V1000, so this page may be helpfull too: http://gruntville.com/reviews/cases/lianli_v1100/page5.php

Joseph
18-02-05, 04:53
I didn't find any manual though. Not even on LianLi's website.
Ok. I understand that you have to insert the PSU into the case from the backside after removing the open plate that would be blocking it; after inserting put that open plate back again..?
Like on Tom's picture above. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

[ 18. February 2005, 05:54: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
18-02-05, 06:20
Oh yeah: that would be just a normal ATX Power Supply Unit, is my impression... it just demands some effort building it in.

Olvidarse
19-02-05, 00:01
Wow. Thank you Joseph. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif

They said that the PSU slot is smaller than usual ATX sized PSUs. I'll just measure to find the length of the PSU slot.

Olvidarse
19-02-05, 18:28
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/CasePSU.jpg

As you can (hopefully) see from the picture, the length of the PSU slot is about 6.6 inches. Unfortunately, there's a little backward "C" shaped aluminum piece (bottom-left) that takes up one inch. However, you can take that little piece off with a screwdriver.

My question: (I have so many ;) ) is the little "C" shaped piece required to put an inch of space between the PSU and the hole for the wires? Or can I take it off to give the PSU more space?

Also, I'm planning to buy the Thermaltake Silent PurePower 420W ATX power supply (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=17-153-006&DEPA=0) for my PSU. Its dimensions (WxDxH) are 5.5 in x 5.9 in x 3.4 in. Will that PSU work for the PSU slot (yes, an easy question, but I still want insurance http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif )?

[ 19. February 2005, 19:31: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
19-02-05, 22:35
What do you mean: "is about 6.6 inches". I don't know how much an inch is (we Dutchies are centimeter people http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif ), but when i look at your ruler i see that it is more (8?). No don't remove the "C", Olvidarse. It is clear that it is needed for space to the wires.

Joseph
19-02-05, 22:45
Don't forget you'll have to take off (with the screws) the open plate that we see at the right side of your photo, before you slide in the PSU. Then, put that plate back. It will then be 'pressed' against the PSU when you have turned the screws on again. Knowing Lian-Li, it will all fit EXACTLY. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif
I don't have the impression, that a special PSU design is needed for this case.

Now the PSU you choose. I think you'd better go for a slightly more powerfull one. THIS ONE (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=17-153-008&DEPA=0) &lt; - LINK
It is 480 Watt. You might need it. The graphic card you're gonna build in, be it 9800XT, or a more heavy one, is hungry. Later you might put in a second hard drive, even a third. I have 4 x 80 GB. Our cases can hold 5. Maybe you think at this moment that you won't. But later, you don't wanna have to change the PSU if you DO decide for it.

Joseph
19-02-05, 22:53
Originally posted by joseph:
What do you mean: "is about 6.6 inches". I don't know how much an inch is (we Dutchies are centimeter people http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif ), but when i look at your ruler i see that it is more (8?). No don't remove the "C", Olvidarse. It is clear that it is needed for space to the wires. Further on this: thanks to your photograph i see now clearly Olvidarse! :D You have measured, looking at your rule, till the rounded edge at the bottom of the case, thinking that the PSU box could never go further than that to fit. Well i think you have to lay the PSUbox ON the "C" shaped thing. Then at the backside of your case, you have to screw the PSUbox tight to the case with the screws. It will then, if you understand me, have space UNDER it (being the height of the "C" shaped object) as well as at the wires side.
Yes, i'm absolutely sure. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

[ 19. February 2005, 23:56: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
20-02-05, 04:23
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/CasePSUb.jpg

Here's the measurement in centimeters (17) :D .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/CasePSUc.jpg

Do you mean that the PSU will lie on the "C" shaped thing? Because the it doesn't look like the PSU goes on top of the "C" in the visual aid.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/CasePSUd.jpg

I'm worried because I've read many reports saying that the PSU slot in the Lian-Li PC-V1000 is smaller than usual.

EDIT: Nevermind. The PSU lies on the "C" shaped bracket. HERE (http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=52&type=expert&pid=3) is a page that says:

There is not much to say about the power supply compartment other than it’s in the bottom of the case and sits on a bracket so that hot air can escape thru the air vents in the floor of the case.
Right as always, Joseph! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-2.gif

[ 20. February 2005, 05:28: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
20-02-05, 04:29
1. show me a link to such a report? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif
2. Agree with me, that in your last picture-outcut the PSU has space under it. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Joseph
20-02-05, 04:31
You edited while i was reacting, Olvidarse! :D

Olvidarse
20-02-05, 04:39
HERE (http://www.anandtech.com/casecooling/showdoc.aspx?i=2040&p=8) is the link to a report page by AnandTech. It says that the PSU slot is limited in size. I have no idea what the dimensions are of an oversized PSU.

[ 20. February 2005, 05:41: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
20-02-05, 04:44
Don't worry, that's not the one you planned to put in.
Doesn't the word 'oversized' ring a bell to you?

Joseph
20-02-05, 04:51
These AT guys just want to show a limitation of the case: "Hey, look! Our big oversized superduper PSU doesn't even fit in! :rolleyes: Look! It sticks out the back! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-2.gif :rolleyes: "

Don't be fooled by that. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif IF your case needed a specific sized PSU, you and i would have noticed by now. We would have found numerous links pointing to the same direction. Instead of that: silence, and only this one joke.

Olvidarse
20-02-05, 04:53
Oversized... :confused: Hmm, has the term been mentioned before?

I guess I should probably buy the 480 watt PSU since I'll be keeping this one for a few years. However, I'm not so sure about a motherboard with PCI-e slots. I can't find any motherboards that suit the 3400 AMD 64-bit processor (socket 754).

Joseph
20-02-05, 05:04
Did you already buy that processor than?
Might as well reverse the question. First choose a motherboard then choose the cpu?

Olvidarse
20-02-05, 05:32
No, I'd just prefer an AMD-64 processor without buying higher than 3400 (processors higher than 3400 are socket 939).

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I don't want anything lower than a 3400 AMD-64. I had the luck of finding the Lian-Li case cheaper than usual on a one-day sale on Newegg, for a grand total of $191. However, since I'm buying the 480 watt PSU I guess the savings cancel out the extra cost. Since I'm gonna assemble the computer during the middle of March, I'll have time to shop/wait for better prices.

[ 20. February 2005, 06:37: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Chug a Bug
20-02-05, 12:20
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
bout a motherboard with PCI-e slots. I can't find any motherboards that suit the 3400 AMD 64-bit processorThat is the problem - PCI-E is the way of the future but try finding a socket 754 mobo that supports it. There were supposed to be developing them, I havn't actually checked Tom's Hardware Guides recently so I'm a little out of touch I admit.

I went for a AGP last year because to be honest I just couldn't wait for PCI-E, and there is always some new development around the corner, if you wait for that "perfect" hardware build you'll wait forever.

So I built my PC with as high a spec as I could afford in the hope that it would be upgrade-proof for a couple of years at best, maybe when my grafix card is out of date I'll upgrade the mobo as well to PCI-E compliant, but thats for the future.

Hope this helps. ;)

Olvidarse
21-02-05, 00:51
While browsing laptops, I bought the ATI 9800 Pro because it was $50 cheaper than its regular price of $250. I won't open the package until I order the motherboard (there's a 21-day allowance of time). I also bought the Seagate 160 BG 7200 RPM SATA hard drive. I've heard that Seagate produces the best hard drives, so I purchased it for $100. Any thoughts or opinions? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Do you guys think that the ATI 9800 Pro will be able to handle TR7? That's my main concern atm. Or will it age so much that I'll get unacceptable framerates?

Joseph
21-02-05, 01:43
The 9800Pro is more or less the same as my 9700Pro. Only the 9800XT is slightly faster. They already ARE outdated as best performers, but i play AOD at highest settings, 1600 x 1200. Sometimes have to go down to 1280 x 1024 for smoother gameplay. But FarCry -one of the very heaviest Directx9 games today- forces it to constant peak-performance, and that game is only smoothly playable at 1280 x 1024 or in action scenes even lower, 1024 x 768 (highest settings though). What will the next generation of games (making more use of the directX9 effects), demand? I hope to upgrade this year to the best available to be prepared. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[ 21. February 2005, 02:45: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
21-02-05, 01:49
Seagate, Samsung, Western Digital, Maxtor,... all good. One is a fraction faster in reading, the other in writing, the third is more silent...
Seagate is very good Olvidarse! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif I have Western Digital.

Does your hdd have 8MB cache?

Olvidarse
21-02-05, 12:59
Yup, an 8MB cache.

I find the 1024x768 resolution more comfortable on the eyes so I'll probably only play on that resolution. I just want to be able to play the next TR7, even on the lowest settings.

I'll wait and won't open the box for a few more weeks to see what changes on the market. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Joseph
21-02-05, 14:25
Of course, Olvidarse. I forgot to tell with it that i am using a 21" monitor, with resolution set @ 1600 X 1200. Maybe you use a smaller monitor? Let's say you use a 17". In that case, to our eyes our situations are relatively the same.
And indeed if you don't need higher resolution than you're using now, also don't demand the highest settings at all cost, i'm sure the 9800Pro will deliver all performance you may expect of a very good card! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Apofiss
21-02-05, 15:45
I have Seagate Barracuda 120GB/7200/8MB and WD 20GB/7200/2MB - both very good. If we are talkin' about TR7 then I think it will be less demanding for CPU and videocard than AOD is (as we know TR7 is made on Soul_Reaver_defiance engine and it's well optimazed - it runs excelent on HIGHEST EFFECTS and resolution using AMD Athalon 1700+ (1.47Ghz) and GeForce2 MX400) Yes. Geometry will be more detailed and some DX9 effects might be included as well so to enjoy TR7 on highest (except FA) AMD Athalon 2400+ (2Ghz) and GeForce FX5700 shoud be in time http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

BTW I think I'm quite ready for TR7...(AMD Athalon 64 3000+/1024MB PC3200/GF6800GT 256) http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif

[ 21. February 2005, 16:48: Message edited by: Apofiss ]

Joseph
21-02-05, 17:48
Oh yeah, you're right Apofiss: TR7 is said to be based on Soul Reaver engine. Very much OK then on the part of performance with an 9800 / 9700 Pro.

Another thing that you bring in mind is that your 6800GT graphic card has 256 MB ram on it. My 9700 Pro has 128, which may be contributing to the fact that in some wealthy DirectX9 3D-environments, and in crowded scenes, some slowdown may occur sometimes. Again, especially @ 1600x1200, a bit @ 1280 x 1024.

Another thing you mention, is your system ram. I too have 1024 MB, PC2700.


Olvidarse, whatever system you are going to build: don't spare on the Ram. Don't forget: for WindowsXP to run completely smoothly and happily, 512 MB is needed. Put above that enough capacity to provide comfort for image editing and multimedia (music, gaming) with a second 512 MB. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Olvidarse
21-02-05, 21:03
I expect my end results to be: AMD Athlon 64 3400, 1024MGB PC3200 RAM, and the 9800 Pro. I'm not so sure about the sound card though because I don't have a complex sound system set up for my laptop(earphones). Right now I'm using a laptop (about as good as my old eMachine, and it saves desk space). It has a resolution of 1024x768 and a 2.6 GHz Celeron processor with integrated graphics. I tried using a 17" monitor, but I was never comfortable with the resolution.

Joseph
21-02-05, 21:57
Soundcard, VERY important, Olvidarse.
I can be short: Creative Audigy2 (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=29-102-179&DEPA=0) . &lt; - LINK. I have: Creative Audigy2 ZS (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=29-102-171&DEPA=0)&lt; - LINK.
But they are more or less the same, the first one (with the latest drivers of course) delivers exactly the same for stereo. And it's cheaper. It delivers the highest resolution audio playback with support for DVD-Audio at 24-bit/192kHz in stereo
(or 24-bit/96kHz in 5.1 surround in addition to industry leading standards, like THX®-certification and Windows Media 9: 24-bit multi-channel audio format.

The Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS also provides encompassing 7.1 surround sound for Dolby Digital® EX as well as DTS-ES supported DVD movies, any DirectSound 3D games, and CMSS 3D virtualized 7.1 stereo music. Musicians will also enjoy true 24-bit recording and low latency ASIO support for the ultimate audio recording platform).</font> Highest resolution in stereo. I don't know what soundquality you are used to on your home-stereo system, but 24-bit/192kHz is top quality in detail and accuracy. It delivers 7.1 for surround fanatics, but that's not the point here. I only have stereo speakers on my PC. But connected to this awesome card.</font> THX. This is a standard for 'studio quality'. Of course, my Klipsch Promedia 2.1 (stereo + subwoofer) speakerset is THX qualified also, otherwise the whole standard would be just theory to my ears.</font> But the MOST IMPORTANT point why you should put in this card, is that it processes all soundrelated tasks on your pc on its own thus relieving the CPU from this. Most important during dvd movies, gaming with 3D sound (EAX!). EAX is very accurate surround sound simulation translated as well to stereo as to the surround sets. Disable the onboard soundchip and install this card.
(Don't take the Soundblaster Live! it is outdated. It sounds better than an onboard chip, but leans heavily on the cpu, so better not.) You want all the performance your CPU can give, that is why you realise that you must build in a graphic card. Exactly the same goes for the soundcard!</font>Amen. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Apofiss
21-02-05, 21:57
Better is to buy 9600XT or GF6600GT. (or GF6800GT for high-end)

CA2 is really good:

[b]Special Features: Realistic EAX® 4.0 ADVANCED HD™ http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

[ 21. February 2005, 23:04: Message edited by: Apofiss ]

Olvidarse
22-02-05, 00:58
Hmm, I guess I should buy a soundcard. I've only found one benchmark that says there was a 3%-4% performance increase for the Creative Audigy 2 ZS.

I don't need the best system. After all, I'm used to Intel Integrated Graphics and Celeron processors, so any increase will be appreciated http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/c-2.gif .

Joseph
22-02-05, 01:12
</font> 1. Have you found a better soundcard for the same price?</font> 2. Do you wish to stick with what you are used to, or experience higher levels of joy?</font>http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Chug a Bug
22-02-05, 03:48
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
I also bought the Seagate 160 BG 7200 RPM SATA hard drive. I've heard that Seagate produces the best hard drives, so I purchased it for $100. Any thoughts or opinions? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Do you guys think that the ATI 9800 Pro will be able to handle TR7? That's my main concern atm. Or will it age so much that I'll get unacceptable framerates? Oh I'm sure the 9800 will be able to handle TR7. TR6 wasn't the most graphically demanding of games and personally I have a hunch that TR7 won't be that different in that respect, even my old FX5600 could play TR6 on the highest settings.

Seagate drives are amongst the most highly regarded around. The ones to avoid are the IBM deathstars and, worryingly, Maxtor drive seem to be having reliability problem recently and I have 2 of them. See &gt; here&lt; (http://www.hardwareguys.com/picks/harddisk.html) and &gt; here. &lt; (http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?showtopic=18811&st=25)

Originally posted by joseph:
Of course, Olvidarse. I forgot to tell with it that i am using a 21" monitor, with resolution set @ 1600 X 1200. Me too. It's black to match my PC and keyboard. ;) Which one do you use? I'd like an TFT but they're just too expensive ATM.

I have to agree with Apofiss Creative Audigy 2 is a very good card and EAX 4.0 is great especially when hooked up to Logitech's excellent Z5300 5.1 surround sound speakers. The only thing you have to remember to do is turn down the bass or else the desk will jump up and down! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Joseph
22-02-05, 04:02
Which one do you use? I'd like an TFT but they're just too expensive ATM.
EIZO Flexscan T965 (=21") plus a EIZO Flexscan T765 (=19") both connected to my 9700 Pro. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif That's why 1600X1200: the ideal resolution for the T765, the smaller one.

TFT, Lcd / plasma : much too expensive for the same quality, and crt's are being dumped even though they are still i'd say superior! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Contra: they're so THICK. So what. I look at the front. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Olvidarse
22-02-05, 07:10
Originally posted by Chug a Bug:


Seagate drives are amongst the most highly regarded around. The ones to avoid are the IBM deathstars and, worryingly, Maxtor drive seem to be having reliability problem recently and I have 2 of them. See &gt; here&lt; (http://www.hardwareguys.com/picks/harddisk.html) and &gt; here. &lt; (http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?showtopic=18811&st=25)
That can't explain the sudden appearance of Maxtor drives instead of Western Digital Drives in all of the advertisements. It makes sense, since a 200GB Maxtor drive (7200 RPM, 8MB cache) sells for about $100. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif


TR6 wasn't the most graphically demanding of games and personally I have a hunch that TR7 won't be that different in that respect, even my old FX5600 could play TR6 on the highest settings. Are you sure that they were the highest settings? I remember reading something about a Nvidia FX5200 out-performing higher cards because it only supported OpenGL 1.4. Then again, I'm not so sure about the FX5600. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Olvidarse
22-02-05, 07:14
* 1. Have you found a better soundcard for the same price?

I haven't looked into soundcards, but I'm set on that Audigy 2 for now.

* 2. Do you wish to stick with what you are used to, or experience higher levels of joy?

Low to moderate levels of joy aren't unusual around here. Moderate to high levels of joy aren't frowned upon either. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

Chug a Bug
22-02-05, 22:05
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Are you sure that they were the highest settings? I remember reading something about a Nvidia FX5200 out-performing higher cards because it only supported OpenGL 1.4. Then again, I'm not so sure about the FX5600. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif The FX5600 had OpenGL 1.4 too ;)

Olvidarse
27-02-05, 05:35
Should I return the 9800 Pro for a Nvidia 6600GT? I know it's only 128-bit, but it has Smart Shader 3.0 (which makes a big difference in image quality, IMO).

HERE's (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/splintercell3/screenindex.html) a page of image comparisons for Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

EDIT: Ok, nevermind. They're comparing it to smart shader 1.1, which is way off from 2.1. :rolleyes: Anything to wow the crowds. Still, do you guys think it's better or worse?

[ 27. February 2005, 06:37: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Olvidarse
28-02-05, 02:32
At $200, the PCI-e version of the Nvidia GeForce 6600GT seems to outperform my currently $290 (Newegg) ATI Radeon 9800 Pro. HERE's (http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2196&p=3) a page of benchmarks.

Now I'm even more confused. :( Why did the 9800 Pro rise in price, and why is the 6600GT so cheap? Does it have to do with the 128-bit interface?

Joseph
28-02-05, 05:07
Yes Olvidarse. The 6600GT outperforms the 9800Pro in a convincing way. I'd take it.

Looking at those screenies from Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, i can understand your enthusiasm for shader model 3. This is one of the first games to use it. Pretty convincing. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Although i don't know how much it takes of performance speed, and if a 6800GT wouldn't be more worthwile for that purpose, i haven't seen any benchmarks of that.

The price. Yes i'm a bit surprised to see both cards at the same price in my local shop:
</font> Club3D ATi Radeon 9800Pro 128 MB DVI/TV-out € 189,-</font> Club3D GF 6600GT PCI-E 128MB € 189,- ; AGP version costs slightly more: Club3D GF 6600GT AGP 128MB € 209,-</font>
You buying all newegg heh? Look for XFX nVIDIA GeForce 6600GT Video Card, 128MB GDDR3, 128-Bit, Dual DVI, AGP 8X, Model "PVT43AND" -RETAIL (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=14-150-080&DEPA=1)
or
MSI nVIDIA GeForce 6600GT Video Card, 128MB DDR3, 128-Bit, DVI/VIVO, AGP 8X, Model "NX6600GT-VTD128" -RETAIL (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=14-127-150&DEPA=0)

Joseph
28-02-05, 05:11
O yeah. If you choose a pci-express card, your motherboard will have to be a Intel based board. Pentium. No AMD platforms for pci-express available.
Otherwise, choose the AGP version!
Both my links are AGP models. I saw tests ('lab-tests' http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif } this XFX ranked highest.

[ 28. February 2005, 06:14: Message edited by: joseph ]

Apofiss
28-02-05, 15:40
Well...there are few AMD Socket 939 with PCI-E http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

Example (MSI RS480M2-IL Mainboard for S939, Bulk ATI Xpress 200,SATA,LAN,PCI-E,m-ATX,VGA)

http://www.komplett.ie/mlf/produkt/bilder/CDS/I293358.jpg

Link to other AMD MBs with PCI-E (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:A9I8hKAv4goJ:www.komplett.ie/k/kl.asp%3Fbn%3D10482+AMD+mainboard+%2B+PCI-E&hl=lv)

Joseph
28-02-05, 16:06
Thanks! Sorry :rolleyes: i'm getting old i guess. :D
-&gt; No, the last informative article i read before posting was old. It said there were not yet.. ah never mind. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

Olvidarse
28-02-05, 22:37
Hmm, but it has OpenGL 1.5, instead of 2.0. What does that do? :confused: I guess I'll go with the AMD 64 3500 if I'm going to get the PCI-e, since it seems like AGP is an already dying format.

Joseph
28-02-05, 23:12
Many games you can play via Direct3D or via Open GL (like Half-Life), if the game is also written for it. Both ways will work. You can choose that option in their settings. I would think that latest drivers for the card would update it to version 2.0.?
Anyway, nothing to worry about, Olvidarse. Most games you would play will automatically play via Direct3D by default.

Learn more about Open GL: www.opengl.org (http://www.opengl.org/about/overview.html) .

Learn more about Open GL 2.0:
&gt; &gt;What's New in OpenGL 2.0 (http://www.opengl.org/documentation/opengl_current_version.html)

Joseph
28-02-05, 23:33
Good article on Tom's Hardware Guide about Open GL 2.0 (http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20020222/index.html) &lt; &lt; link

Olvidarse
01-03-05, 00:22
Heh, thanks Joseph. So they have revisions of OpenGL, but it's not necessary since you can run it in Direct3D. However, I'm not sure OpenGL is something you can update for the drivers...

Another question: the difference in 128-bit and 256-bit is only in speed performance? The 6600GT is a 128-bit card, but it runs faster than the 9800 Pro 256-bit card.

EDIT: I guess THIS (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2277&p=3) settles the debate between the AGP versions of the 9800 Pro and the 6600GT. ;)

[ 01. March 2005, 01:30: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
01-03-05, 00:55
Yes. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif [quote: "Not only is this generation's midrange card outperforming a top of the line card from last year, but technologically and dollar for dollar this 6600GT is the very clear winner here as well. " /quote]


But these are framerates.
Don't forget there is image quality to consider also. Look here &gt; &gt; http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040414/geforce_6800-46.html

Olvidarse
01-03-05, 01:00
Originally posted by joseph:
But these are framerates.
Don't forget there is image quality to consider also. Look here &gt; &gt; http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040414/geforce_6800-46.html [/QB]ACK! I didn't consider that. There are considerable differences between the image qualities of the 6800U and the 9800XT. Now I'm confused yet again. :(

Joseph
01-03-05, 01:36
Of course. And that's why it is not always so easy to decide which is best for you. Many gamers choose for framerates. Which IS important, next to connection speed, f.i in multiplayer mode what they often do.
When you're a single player and enjoy most the nicest image quality in games playing at a relaxed tempo, you might prefer a slower card with better image display of that game.
But also: many differences are settled via driver updates.

Olvidarse
01-03-05, 02:15
I'm tired of searching, so I guess I'll go with the PCI-e 6600GT for the moment. Besides, AGP is a dying form, right?

ATM, I'm going to buy a CD/DVD drive. HERE's (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=27-152-035&depa=1) a Newegg one day sale drive. Is this an internal drive? It doesnt' mention it in the specifications, but it looks like it would be an internal drive.

Joseph
01-03-05, 02:30
Yes that's an internal drive in your link.

AGP not dying. For 1 - 2 years agp and pci-express will live next to each other performing the same in games. Slowly pci-e will take over and agp will leave.
Compare it to cd- and dvd- burners! The same sort of evolution-story. Even though good dvd-burners are available at low prices for a year now, you can still buy a cd-burner, and it still burns cd's as good as a dvdburner.

Olvidarse
01-03-05, 03:10
Just bought the internal drive - one less thing to think about. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

So it doesn't matter between PCI-e or AGP; the only difference is that the AGP requires a power supply. The difference in the framerates are negligible. I planned on buying an AMD 64 3400, which uses socket 754. However, there aren't any PCI-e oriented motherboards that support socket 754 at the moment. My main concern was whether or not I will be able to upgrade to a PCI-e motherboard and keep the AMD 64 3400 processor. *Hopefully* they'll make some socket 754 motherboards in the future with PCI-e access.

There was one other thing that I wanted to say, but I forgot it. :confused: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Joseph
01-03-05, 03:23
the only difference is that the AGP requires a power supply. ...have you read anywhere that pci-e doesn't need a power supply? :confused:

Olvidarse
01-03-05, 03:57
Yes, I've read reviews where it stated that the PCI-e card gets all the power it needs from the slot. I've also seen a picture on the AGP version that shows where the power plug is supposed to go.

What do you think of THIS (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-127-150&depa=1) 6600GT graphics card? I found it for a total of $200 on Zipzoomfly.com. I'm going to return that 9800 Pro now that I've read comparisons between the two cards.

EDIT: AnandTech Page (http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2195) It is worth mentioning that neither the 6600 nor the 6600 GT require an external power source. That isn't to say that they are less power hungry than an AGP card that requires external power, but that the PCI Express slot supplies enough voltage to the card that it doesn't need any more juice. PCI Express is designed to be more robust in that area than AGP.


[ 01. March 2005, 05:36: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
01-03-05, 04:36
That card, i gave you a link to it (same newegg page) in a post above.
The MSI is excellent. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Olvidarse
01-03-05, 04:55
Originally posted by joseph:
That card, i gave you a link to it (same newegg page) in a post above.
The MSI is excellent. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif Heh, oops. THIS (http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2295&p=9) page displays a different MSI card for some reason. It looks pretty low from the looks of the benchmarks, although it might be a different type.

Joseph
01-03-05, 05:05
Well, take this one then: http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2295&p=13 . That is the extreme gamer version of the card from my other link in above post. The XFX 6600GT, is a highest rated model anyway.

[ 01. March 2005, 06:11: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
01-03-05, 05:33
Originally posted by joseph:
Well, take this one then: http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2295&p=13 . That is the extreme gamer version of the card from my other link in above post. The XFX 6600GT, is a highest rated model anyway. The XFX has had complaints of loudness. It's priced at $185 at Zipzoomfly. Hmm, I'll read more into the differences when I find the time. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

EDIT: Nevermind, the rebate for it expired today.

[ 01. March 2005, 06:34: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Apofiss
01-03-05, 16:18
I would suggest MSI NX GeForce 6600GT...[AGPx8 or PCI-E]

MSI's GeForce 6600GT offering comes in two flavors, the NX6600GT-TD128E, and the NX6600GT-VTD128. The only differences between the two are in price - $187 for the TD128E and $222 for the VTD128, and also in the fact that the VTD128 features VIVO capability while the TD128E doesn't.

Full tests for PCI-E version HERE! (http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=1684&s=1)

Card:
http://www.vr-zone.com/reviews/MSI/6600gt/3.jpg

[ 01. March 2005, 17:21: Message edited by: Apofiss ]

Joseph
01-03-05, 17:19
http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=1684&s=13 :
So after factoring all of the above, it is easy to see why we strongly feel the MSI NX6600GT-TD128E is the best GeForce 6600GT PCIe card on the market. A great bundle, excellent overclockability, and cheap price make the NX6600GT-TD128E a card to be taken seriously by enthusiasts shopping for their next mainstream graphics card.

Thanks for the link Apofiss! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Chug a Bug
01-03-05, 22:04
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Just bought the internal drive - one less thing to think about. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

So it doesn't matter between PCI-e or AGP; the only difference is that the AGP requires a power supply. The difference in the framerates are negligible. I planned on buying an AMD 64 3400, which uses socket 754. However, there aren't any PCI-e oriented motherboards that support socket 754 at the moment. My main concern was whether or not I will be able to upgrade to a PCI-e motherboard and keep the AMD 64 3400 processor. *Hopefully* they'll make some socket 754 motherboards in the future with PCI-e access.

There was one other thing that I wanted to say, but I forgot it. :confused: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif AMD has decided to concentrate on Socket 939 in the future and it seems likely that there will be few if any PCI-E socket 754 mobo's in the near future. The reason I bought one is because they are or were a lot cheaper than equivalent socket 939 processors and offered a lot of bang for your buck for comparitively little money. Of course in several years time they'll be out of date but current socket 939 mobo's will be old too and I'd probably be looking for an upgrade too if I'd bought one of those.

There is unfortunately no such thing as an upgrade-proof PC, you can only delay the inevitable.

Olvidarse
02-03-05, 00:07
Thanks for all the advice guys. You all made the video card selection painless. :D

Chug a Bug
02-03-05, 01:07
You're welcome ;) Good luck with the build http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

Joseph
02-03-05, 15:29
Originally posted by Chug a Bug:


There is unfortunately no such thing as an upgrade-proof PC, you can only delay the inevitable. Keep that always in mind. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Olvidarse
06-03-05, 21:06
I bought an OEM CD/DVD drive, but don't know what to do with it. Do I need to install drivers after I assemble the parts together (in a few days)?

I ordered the remaining computer parts, and expect them to arrive Wednesday. Can you guys tell me what happens after I assemble all of the parts. Does something flash on the screen when I turn the computer on? Or do I just insert the Windows XP disk? Thanks. :D

Olvidarse
06-03-05, 23:33
How do I install the hard drive? The Lian-li case doesn't seem to have the regular drive bays previewed on my hard drive's installation CD. There's nothing to keep it from falling down, and Lian-li didn't include a manual.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Hd.jpg

Joseph
07-03-05, 00:24
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
I bought an OEM CD/DVD drive, but don't know what to do with it. Do I need to install drivers after I assemble the parts together (in a few days)?

I ordered the remaining computer parts, and expect them to arrive Wednesday. Can you guys tell me what happens after I assemble all of the parts. Does something flash on the screen when I turn the computer on? Or do I just insert the Windows XP disk? Thanks. :D After you built the pc together, you insert the Windows XP cd, and start installing. XP (smart OS it is!) will check all hardware. All the hardware t recognises, it will install its drivers for. So, unless you insist on the specific drivers for the cd/dvd-rom device, you don't have to install any driver for it.
This behavior of XP also has a dark side: when you have a (let's say: a HP all-in-one) printer connected, XP will install it's default drivers for it. But that is NOT what you want: you want the HP software. This means: don't connect the printer yet.

Joseph
07-03-05, 00:28
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
How do I install the hard drive? The Lian-li case doesn't seem to have the regular drive bays previewed on my hard drive's installation CD. There's nothing to keep it from falling down, and Lian-li didn't include a manual.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Hd.jpg Hey! That's new to me Olvidarse. You obviously need either extra side brackets, or you turn screws in the sides of the hdd's, but let them stick out 3 mm, so that they serve as clamps holding the hdd's case firmly in the 'rails'.

Olvidarse
07-03-05, 00:52
The hard drives are not directly screwed into the cages at all. Rather, Lian Li bundles specially designed sliding screws which mount directly on to the hard disk itself. Once these screws are in place, the drive simply slides into place in the hard drive cage, and can be locked into place by a plastic mounting system, which is surprisingly very secure. The drive mounting mechanism, along with the fact that the drives are mounted at a 90 degree horizontal rotated angle, reminds us of the mounting system of Antec's Sonata case. If you look underneath the drive cages, you can see that there are airflow holes directly underneath, so the hard drives benefit from passive air cooling, along with the 120mm cooling fan directly in front of them. Hmm, now I guess I have to hunt for those screws!

Olvidarse
07-03-05, 01:02
That was amazingly painless! I just found the little sheet that came with the case, so Lian-li isn't to blame for the lack of information. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/whistle.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/DSCF0058.jpg

[ 07. March 2005, 02:03: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
07-03-05, 02:23
Haha! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif :D

Joseph
07-03-05, 02:46
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Can you guys tell me what happens after I assemble all of the parts. Does something flash on the screen when I turn the computer on? Or do I just insert the Windows XP disk? Thanks. :D </font> When you have assembled all the parts, turn on the pc. Watch carefully what happens on your monitor because the text will mention which key to press to enter the BIOS. It will likely be either Del or F2, or...
In BIOS, select the first page and look if the hdd and cdromplayer are recognised. Then press Esc. Now select the "Boot options" section. Look at the order of booting devices. It will look something like this:
1st Boot Device...........Floppy Drive
2nd Boot Device...........Hard Disk
3rd Boot Device...........CDROM
Boot Other Device.........Disabled

Now disable the 1st Boot Device (Floppy Drive);
Make 2nd Boot Device: ....CDROM
3d Boot Device: ..........Hard Disk.</font> Put the WindowsXP cd in the tray and close.</font> Press Esc, choose Save&Exit to leave the BIOS and reboot.</font>
WinXP will start installing. It will take care of the formatting. Choose NTFS.

[ 07. March 2005, 03:52: Message edited by: joseph ]

Quiver.
07-03-05, 16:35
Hey joseph http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif ,
can you tell me what the difference is between NTFS and FAT32 and which one is the best?

[ 07. March 2005, 17:36: Message edited by: Quiver. ]

Apofiss
07-03-05, 17:27
FAT32 or NTFS: Making the Choice

Choosing the file system to use on a Windows XP system is seldom easy, and frequently it's not just a one time decision.. Different factors can blur the decision process, and some tradeoffs are more than likely. No matter what method you choose to adopt Windows XP, you will have to face the FAT32 versus NTFS decision. Clean and upgrade installs both require you to address the situation early on in the process. Later on, if you add a drive or repartition an existing drive the decision process faces you yet again. Circumstances may dictate the choice for you, but in most cases the options have to be weighed and the tradeoffs of using each method analyzed. Let's look at the available choices.

File System Choices

Most articles discussing file system choices look at FAT32 and NTFS as the two available choices. In reality, there are three systems which could be selected. FAT, FAT32, and NTFS. Granted, FAT32 and NTFS are the primary choices, but on occasion you'll still find the need for a FAT volume. A FAT volume has a maximum size of 2GB and supports MS-DOS as well as being used for some dual boot configurations, but backward compatibility is about the only reason I can think of that FAT should ever be used, other than for the occasional floppy diskette. That said, let's move on to FAT32 and NTFS.

Which File System to Choose?

As much as everyone would like for there to be a stock answer to the selection question, there isn't. Different situations and needs will play a large role in the decision of which file system to adopt. There isn't any argument that NTFS offers better security and reliability. Some also say that NTFS is more flexible, but that can get rather subjective depending on the situation and work habits, whereas NTFS superiority in security and reliability is seldom challenged. Listed below are some of the most common factors to consider when deciding between FAT32 and NTFS.

Security

FAT32 provides very little security. A user with access to a drive using FAT32 has access to the files on that drive.

NTFS allows the use of NTFS Permissions. It's much more difficult to implement, but folder and file access can be controlled individually, down to an an extreme degree if necessary. The down side of using NTFS Permissions is the chance for error and screwing up the system is greatly magnified.

Windows XP Professional supports file encryption.

Compatibility

NTFS volumes are not recognized by Windows 95/98/Me. This is only a concern when the system is set up for dual or multi-booting. FAT32 must be be used for any drives that must be accessed when the computer is booted from Windows 95/98 or Windows Me.

An additional note to the previous statement. Users on the network have access to shared folders no matter what disk format is being used or what version of Windows is installed.

FAT and FAT32 volumes can be converted to NTFS volumes. NTFS cannot be converted to FAT32 without reformatting.


Space Efficiency

NTFS supports disk quotas, allowing you to control the amount of disk usage on a per user basis.

NTFS supports file compression. FAT32 does not.

How a volume manages data is outside the scope of this article, but once you pass the 8GB partition size, NTFS handles space management much more efficiently than FAT32. Cluster sizes play an important part in how much disk space is wasted storing files. NTFS provides smaller cluster sizes and less disk space waste than FAT32.

In Windows XP, the maximum partition size that can be created using FAT32 is 32GB. This increases to 16TB (terabytes) using NTFS. There is a workaround for the 32GB limitation under FAT32, but it is a nuisance especially considering the size of drives currently being manufactured.


Reliability

FAT32 drives are much more susceptible to disk errors.

NTFS volumes have the ability to recover from errors more readily than similar FAT32 volumes.

Log files are created under NTFS which can be used for automatic file system repairs.

NTFS supports dynamic cluster remapping for bad sectors and prevent them from being used in the future.

The Final Choice

As the prior versions of Windows continue to age and are replaced in the home and workplace there will be no need for the older file systems. Hard drives aren't going to get smaller, networks are likely to get larger and more complex, and security is evolving almost daily as more and more users become connected. For all the innovations that Windows 95 brought to the desktop, it's now a virtual dinosaur. Windows 98 is fast on the way out and that leaves NT and Windows 2000, both well suited to NTFS. To wrap up, there may be compelling reasons why your current situation requires a file system other than NTFS or a combination of different systems for compatibility, but if at all possible go with NTFS. Even if you don't utilize its full scope of features, the stability and reliability it offers make it the hands down choice.

Quiver.
07-03-05, 17:31
Thanks for the info apofiss, its very interesting. I'll think i'll convert my disk to NTFS the next time when I format my computer.

[ 07. March 2005, 18:33: Message edited by: Quiver. ]

Chug a Bug
07-03-05, 18:46
Olvidarse take a look here (http://www.buildyourown.org.uk/) for more information. It's a little out of date as far as the specifics are concerned but the general rules remain the same. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Originally posted by Quiver.:
Thanks for the info apofiss, its very interesting. I'll think i'll convert my disk to NTFS the next time when I format my computer. NTFS is the file format of choice if you're using Win2000/XP. It's not suitable for earlier OS's or DOS based software though. XP allows you can convert an existing FAT32 partition to NTFS at any time without losing any data. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Olvidarse
08-03-05, 00:00
My current laptop has a NTFS file system, so I intend to go with NTFS. Thanks again for all the information. I'll be sure to print this page as reference material, and I'll read the "Build Your Own PC" page when the histamine stops bombarding my eyes. :eek: :D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Olvidarse
10-03-05, 03:21
AHHH! Right now I'm on step two on installing the motherboard (CPU). I'm sure I installed the CPU in the correct order (gold triangle meets the triangle on the mobo). However, when I try to lock it, I'm met with some force. I don't want to bend any pins, but is this normal?

Olvidarse
10-03-05, 03:23
Nevermind. I just pushed the lever down, but I heard a faint scratching noise. We'll see what happens when I turn the computer on. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Olvidarse
10-03-05, 03:43
Eeek! Now I'm trying to install the fan, but I didn't hear a click so I lifted it up and found the grey square to be smooshed a little to the side. So now the grey square is uneven. What do I do now? :(

EDIT: So I just finally fitted it onto the board (the fan). Oh well, we'll see. :D

[ 10. March 2005, 05:09: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
10-03-05, 04:33
ehh.. how is the weather at your place atm , Olvidarse? :cool: Cool, you're assembling.

Just take all the time with what you are doing, be quiet, and simply concentrated. Keep breathing as if everything is like any other day, and read every bit of manual that came with the parts, so that you won't have to have a feeling like you're missing some crucial information.
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Olvidarse
10-03-05, 07:36
Heh, now I need cable help.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Caseh3.jpg

Sorry for the blurry picture, but can anyone tell me why I have two connection holes open? It's a CD/DVD drive, but I only have that flat cable and the power line connected to it. Do I need anything else?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Caseh.jpg

Where do I connect the "end piece" of the power line? It's that white colored prong. Do I need to put it anywhere on the motherboard, because I can't find any spaces for it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Caseh2.jpg
I came out with having these two separate wires with special prongs. I'm not sure where these are supposed to go (it's from the PSU, but I can't find a corresponding connector on the motherboard for those two lines). Does anyone know where these two go?

Lastly, would I connect the CD/DVD drive to the primary or secondary IDE? I'm using SATA, so IDE doesn't matter for me.

Joseph
10-03-05, 11:48
Olvidarse, with the motherboard surely came a manual.

Joseph
10-03-05, 12:03
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Heh, now I need cable help.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Caseh3.jpg

Sorry for the blurry picture, but can anyone tell me why I have two connection holes open? It's a CD/DVD drive, but I only have that flat cable and the power line connected to it. Do I need anything else?

Yes the audio-cable. Sorry, did you buy a soundcard yet? In the box will be a audio cable then.

Joseph
10-03-05, 12:49
Originally posted by Olvidarse:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Caseh2.jpg
I came out with having these two separate wires with special prongs. I'm not sure where these are supposed to go (it's from the PSU, but I can't find a corresponding connector on the motherboard for those two lines). Does anyone know where these two go?

The left one is SATA.

[ 10. March 2005, 13:56: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
10-03-05, 12:59
Originally posted by Olvidarse:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Caseh.jpg

Where do I connect the "end piece" of the power line? It's that white colored prong. Do I need to put it anywhere on the motherboard, because I can't find any spaces for it.

What do you mean with "end piece"? I'd say, un-tie the cable bundles. In a later post i will show you some clear pictures.

Joseph
10-03-05, 13:04
Originally posted by Olvidarse:

Lastly, would I connect the CD/DVD drive to the primary or secondary IDE? I'm using SATA, so IDE doesn't matter for me. Your cd/dvd drive is not a SATA device. If your harddiskdrive is a IDE, you connect that to the primary IDE (as 'single'), and the cd/dvd drive to the second IDE (as 'single'). But as you say your hdd is SATA, so you can connect the cd/dvd drive to the primary IDE.

Joseph
10-03-05, 14:11
For the latest components: six-pin PCIe connector and 24-pin ATX connector. This one goes to your motherboard. An adapter has to be used for older motherboards.
V

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/atx_and_pcie1.jpg

Conventional 20-pin ATX connectors.
V

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/connector_atx2.jpg


Here, the 2-way ATX connector facilitates use with older boards.
V


http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/atx_connector3.jpg


Or, older motherboards can be connected with this adapter from 24 to 20 pins...
V
V

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/adaptor_atx4.jpg


http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/adaptor_atx5.jpg

An adapter for the P4 connector, going from 8 pins (EPS) down to 4.
V

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/adaptor_p4-6.jpg

[ 10. March 2005, 15:12: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
10-03-05, 14:19
SATA power connector with 3.3V cable.
V

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/connector_sata7.jpg

This power supply cable can power two PCIe graphics cards.
V

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/connector_pcie8.jpg

Motherboard tachometer connection.
V

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/connector_tacho9.jpg


Cable ties. Use these to neaten the wire-bundles, and manipulate out of the way the leftover wires.
V

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/cable_ties10.jpg

Chug a Bug
10-03-05, 21:14
Originally posted by joseph:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Olvidarse:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Caseh2.jpg
I came out with having these two separate wires with special prongs. I'm not sure where these are supposed to go (it's from the PSU, but I can't find a corresponding connector on the motherboard for those two lines). Does anyone know where these two go?

The left one is SATA. </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Oldivarse. The one on the right is for older Pentium based systems IIRC. Don't worry about it. Not every plug/connector has to be used.

Chug a Bug
10-03-05, 21:24
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Caseh.jpg

Where do I connect the "end piece" of the power line? It's that white colored prong. Do I need to put it anywhere on the motherboard, because I can't find any spaces for it.
Erm I'm not exactly sure what you mean but if you're talking about that little connector thats different from the other Molex connectors it's the one for the floppy disc drive. Sometimes it's used to power some other devices as well.

Chug a Bug
10-03-05, 21:39
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
AHHH! Right now I'm on step two on installing the motherboard (CPU). I'm sure I installed the CPU in the correct order (gold triangle meets the triangle on the mobo). However, when I try to lock it, I'm met with some force. I don't want to bend any pins, but is this normal?

Nevermind. I just pushed the lever down, but I heard a faint scratching noise. We'll see what happens when I turn the computer on. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Eep.

The CPU should just drop into the ZIF socket if all the pins are aligned correctly. There is one corner of the chip thats missing some pins and this should be lined up with the matching holes in the socket assuming you're using an socket 754 processor.

Once you've done this you need to lower the lever carefully and it will click as it fastens down. You may need to hold down the chip carefully with a finger while you're doing this to prevent it rising out of the socket.

Finally clean the top of the chip and lay the thermal pad (or thermal grease) on top of the chip and fit the heatsink.

[ 11. March 2005, 00:20: Message edited by: Chug a Bug ]

Joseph
10-03-05, 21:43
that little connector thats different from the other Molex connectors it's the one for the floppy disc drive. Sometimes it's used to power some other devices as well. Yes it is also used for the graphic card.
There are at least two of these plugs on your power supply as are on mine.
My AtiRadeon9700Pro gets its additional powerload from one wich is connected to it. the other goes to the floppydrive.

Chug a Bug
10-03-05, 21:55
Originally posted by joseph:
Yes it is also used for the graphic card.
There are at least two of these plugs on your power supply as are on mine.
My AtiRadeon9700Pro gets its additional powerload from one wich is connected to it. the other goes to the floppydrive. [/QB]My ATI Radeon X800XT uses a Molex connector instead as does the nVidia 6800GT AGP card I believe. I think some soundcards may use the smaller connector.

[ 11. March 2005, 00:23: Message edited by: Chug a Bug ]

Olvidarse
10-03-05, 22:54
Originally posted by joseph:
Olvidarse, with the motherboard surely came a manual. Unfortunately the motherboard manual doesn't go over specific parts to connect. The bulk of it is written in different languages. The PSU didn't even come with instructions! :(

Olvidarse
10-03-05, 23:44
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Thg.jpg

I meant what do I do with the white connector at the end of the power cable(s)? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/FrontUSBCables.jpg

These wires came with the case for the front media ports. Do I have to unwind all of them, and then connect them? Or do I just connect the main 9-hole connector?

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Joseph
11-03-05, 00:46
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Thg.jpg

I meant what do I do with the white connector at the end of the power cable(s)? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Floppydisk. And the other (you'll find at least 2 of these) you connect to a Ati Radeon 9800 Pro, that was your intention wasn't it. I have to read back to know which card you have now.
As Chug a Bug says, a 6800GT graphic card will use a molex - which is the same as the one which powers the dvd-romdevice.

[ 11. March 2005, 01:48: Message edited by: joseph ]

Olvidarse
11-03-05, 01:01
Oh, I ordered the MSI 6600GT (it just came to the door).

Joseph
11-03-05, 01:01
"Molex":

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/molex.jpg

Joseph
11-03-05, 01:25
If you unpacked and studied it, you'll have found it by now.


http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/molex-msi6600gt.jpg

Olvidarse
11-03-05, 01:59
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/FrontUSBCables.jpg

I'm sorry, but I'm trying to connect these three lines. They're part of the Lian-Li interface. Apparently there are three connectors, IEEE 1394, Audio I/O, and USB 2.0 that are connected to the front of the case (two audio holes, two USB, and one firewire). I won't use the firewire, so I'm setting that aside. However, I will use the front audio and USB ports.

I can't find the holes for them on the motherboard. :(

The prong setup:
.....
....0


EDIT: YES!! I found them. I was confused because the audio I/O had "jumper caps" on the prong. I think I'm set; I just need to setup the video card, which should be very easy.

[ 11. March 2005, 03:11: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Olvidarse
11-03-05, 02:53
Agh! It won't turn it on. :( The manual said to either call my retailer or check the jumper settings. What are the jumper settings?

EDIT: Eh, I'll just try to readjust the jumper settings.

2nd EDIT: LOL OMG!!! I had the PSU switch in the wrong position!! Heh.. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[ 11. March 2005, 04:38: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
11-03-05, 03:49
:cool: Stay cool... :cool:

Olvidarse
11-03-05, 04:49
Partitioning setup is at 73%!... Everything was recognized by the bios! Even with my clumsy self! Hope it stays this way. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Tramp
11-03-05, 06:55
That sounds great Olvidarse. I have been watching your progress with extreme interest. I think when this thread is complete I will be saving it. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Olvidarse
11-03-05, 07:37
I still need to register Windows, so I haven't downloaded the drivers into the computer. This requires that I have an online connection, but my SBC DSL installation disk is lying somewhere around the house. After I register it, I'll still need help with the drivers. :D

Is it normal to not have working audio? I've only installed Windows and nothing else. Also, moving around separate windows slows down my computer. Another problem is the amount of noise coming from the CPU fan; it's so loud that I can hear it a few rooms away!

Hmm... maybe I should start it up again when the coffee takes effect.

Chug a Bug
11-03-05, 22:47
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
I still need to register Windows, so I haven't downloaded the drivers into the computer. This requires that I have an online connection, but my SBC DSL installation disk is lying somewhere around the house. After I register it, I'll still need help with the drivers. :D

Is it normal to not have working audio? I've only installed Windows and nothing else. Also, moving around separate windows slows down my computer. Another problem is the amount of noise coming from the CPU fan; it's so loud that I can hear it a few rooms away!

Hmm... maybe I should start it up again when the coffee takes effect. Brilliant! Well done! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif Thats more than I could manage at my first attempt it took a while before I could get mine to POST, in fact I even had to have a replacement mobo because I managed to damage it, lol. :D So well done. ;)

The CPU fan: I don't know what mobo you're using but theres something called AMD Cool'n'Quiet which I believe you can download from your motherboard manufacturer's website. As an alternative check your motherboard manual and go into the BIOS and there may be an option to select an optimum temperature for the CPU: choose 40 degrees C or lower. This will optimize the speed of the CPU fan so it shouldn't be going hell for leather all the time and so should quieten it down a bit.

You need to install the mobo drivers (there should be a CD ROM that came with the motherboard) and install those next.

Then the graphics drivers, there should be another CD that came with the card.

Yes, it's perfectly normal not to hear any sound. Again, install the drivers from the CD Rom that came with the Audigy 2 card. If your motherboard has an onboard sound chip it's a good idea to disable it in the BIOS menu so theres no conflict with the Audigy 2 soundcard.

Once you've installed all of these install the modem drivers. Make sure Windows firewall is turned ON and visit Microsoft Update and download all the updates you can. If you're on a narrowband connection you may have to get some large ones like Service pack 2 on a CD ROM, thats assuming you don't have SP2 already installed with your copy of XP you may already have.

Finally go the Creative website and download the latest drivers for your soundcard. Likewise the graphics drivers. There are many games that will not work properly unless you have the latest drivers installed and the ones on the CD Roms will sometiimes be quite old.

Finally relax, put your feet up and congratulate yourself on a job well done! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

EDIT: Forgot to mention: XP will give you 1 month to register Windows so theres no rush yet. You can do it online once thats up and running. Don't change the date/time settings on your PC now or Windows may cut it short!

[ 12. March 2005, 00:05: Message edited by: Chug a Bug ]

Olvidarse
11-03-05, 23:33
First post from the new computer! I'll worry about the the motherboard settings later, because right now it's time for TRAOD in full effects. :D

Tramp
11-03-05, 23:44
Congrats Olvidarse welcome to the forums with the new system. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Chug a Bug
11-03-05, 23:55
Outstanding! :D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Joseph
12-03-05, 00:01
Hey mate, how's that feel?! :D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Joseph
12-03-05, 00:11
Olvidarse, do you realise you are one of the fastest on the planet right now?

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/mach4-1.jpg


http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/speedface.jpg

Olvidarse
12-03-05, 01:48
Originally posted by joseph:
Olvidarse, do you realise you are one of the fastest on the planet right now?

http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/mach4-1.jpg


http://joseph.tombraiderforums.com/Images/speedface.jpg Heh, thanks. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif But I'm also the loudest. :( That ASUS AMD Cool and Quiet thing doesn't seem to be working (or I haven't noticed any audible changes of the CPU/fan)... Or maybe it's coming from the fan in the Lian-Li case!!! It is! It's the big fan in the back - should I apply some sort of fan lubricant (it makes a medium-loud whirring noise)?

Also, my system recognizes the SATA (C:) drive as an external hardware device (I get the "Safely remove hardware" option whenever I left click on the green arrow icon in the notification area). Is there any way to recognize the SATA (C:) drive as regular hardware?

[ 12. March 2005, 02:55: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
12-03-05, 02:09
1. The Lian-Li fans are loud. I know. I have a Lian-Li case myself. The fans that produce the noise are those from the case. :rolleyes: You can disconnect them (=dont give them power). So you have a ASUS motherboard. Install ASUS Probe. It is a tool to watch inside parts temperature. Must be on the cd. Keep an eye on everything via this tool for a couple of days without the case fans connected. See how it all does.
Just yesterday i decided to reconnect all case fans. The noise is like a vacuumcleaner but i became used to it.
Besides, you could replace those by quiter ones.

Joseph
12-03-05, 02:12
2. About the SATA wrongly 'recognised': i guess (!) you have not installed some chip-update from the cd that came with the motherboard?
Could you show a printscreen of the error message?

Olvidarse
12-03-05, 03:08
It's not an error message, and I installed the drivers for the Seagate. So why would it do this :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Webbings/ScnHdd.jpg
:confused:

Joseph
12-03-05, 04:21
Oh!!! That's nothing to worry! :D You see that is standard Windows procedure, when you installed new hardware it notifies you that you can safely remove it again. With the emphasis on 'safely'. Haven't you noticed that before? I got that message after i installed my </font> router</font> pci-IDE controller.</font> and saw it on others's pc's after webcam install.</font>The message will be gone tomorrow by itself.

Joseph
12-03-05, 04:27
I remember i had that after install of a usb-adsl modem also (that was when i started with adsl). XP recognises new essential hardware, and offers this safe way to remove it if needed.

Joseph
12-03-05, 09:49
But.
I agree with you that it sounds rediculous in this case. How could one safely remove the harddisk on which Windows itself is installed!? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif
........ http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif
.
.
.
. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif

Chug a Bug
12-03-05, 14:14
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Heh, thanks. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif But I'm also the loudest. :( That ASUS AMD Cool and Quiet thing doesn't seem to be working (or I haven't noticed any audible changes of the CPU/fan)... Or maybe it's coming from the fan in the Lian-Li case!!! It is! It's the big fan in the back - should I apply some sort of fan lubricant (it makes a medium-loud whirring noise)? Case fans can be noisy. You have 2 options in this case: you can either install some quiet fans (like SilenX fans which are very good, less than 21db, but are more expensive than regular fans) or you can buy a fan controller. These vary from a simple device that plugs into the fan lead to a more elaborate device that fits into one of the drive bays on the front of the PC.

I have one of the latter myself. There are 4 knobs which control the speed of 4 fans inside the case. You can save a lot of noise by turning down the RPM. It also has a display on the front which monitors the temperature of the CPU, Hard driver and fan speeds via a number of probes which are placed in appropriate places inside the PC. You can see it on the front of my PC it's the thing at the top of the drive bays lit up by the blue LED's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/chug-a-bug/DSCF0020.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/chug-a-bug/DSCF0118.jpg

Yes I know what you're thinking the PC is at risk of overheating etc. But really thats not the case. The fans are just slowed not stopped. And the temperature inside is easily monitored.

[ 12. March 2005, 16:21: Message edited by: Chug a Bug ]

Chug a Bug
12-03-05, 15:09
Originally posted by joseph:
But.
I agree with you that it sounds rediculous in this case. How could one safely remove the harddisk on which Windows itself is installed!? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/clown.gif
........ http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif
.
.
.
. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif It's because he's installed new drivers for the drive so Windows sees it as a "new" device even though Windows is already installed on it. Windows sees itself as stored on an "old" device. Yes, I know, it's silly. ;)

Joseph
12-03-05, 19:04
Now what's this about installing drivers for the harddisk. Olvidarse said it, now you say it, Chug. I don't have SATA so wouldn't know, Does SATA require drivers?

On the other thing you said: the fan speed control. For me, that's the TIP OF THE WEEK! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif Today, i bought one myself.
Mine has 6 knobs. That's perfect, because my case has 6 fans: 2 front, 1 back, 1 top, 1 cpu fan, 1 psu 12 cm (but i won't connect this one because it's self-regulating on a temp sensor). It will light up blueish too. I'll connect tomorrow.

Chug a Bug
12-03-05, 20:45
Originally posted by joseph:
Now what's this about installing drivers for the harddisk. Olvidarse said it, now you say it, Chug. I don't have SATA so wouldn't know, Does SATA require drivers? My motherboard uses the Nvidia nForce3 250 chipset and the drivers CD contains software for this including an IDE driver update. So once Windows has been installed I run this update. After re-booting Windows then detects the drive as "new" hardware just as Olvidarse mentioned in his post. Since he had been talking about installing drivers I imagined that he had probably had a similar experiance. ;)

Originally posted by joseph:
On the other thing you said: the fan speed control. For me, that's the TIP OF THE WEEK! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif Today, i bought one myself.
Mine has 6 knobs. That's perfect, because my case has 6 fans: 2 front, 1 back, 1 top, 1 cpu fan, 1 psu 12 cm (but i won't connect this one because it's self-regulating on a temp sensor). It will light up blueish too. I'll connect tomorrow. You're most welcome Joseph. Glad I could help out. :D http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif

Joseph
12-03-05, 21:48
Yeah thanks Chug. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif I often had a quick thought of buying such device, but then forgot, and never actually did it. I just unplugged the top case-fan, and noticed my cpu temp never gets above 50 degrees anyway. Got used to the noise of the rest of the fans.

My motherboard uses the Nvidia nForce3 250 chipset and the drivers CD contains software for this including an IDE driver update. So once Windows has been installed I run this update. After re-booting Windows then detects the drive as "new" hardware just as Olvidarse mentioned in his post. Since he had been talking about installing drivers I imagined that he had probably had a similar experiance.
And thanks for clearing that up too. So it is an IDE driver update for the Nvidia nForce3 250 chipset.
My motherboard has a Intel i945p chipset. With the mobo came a cd. Which contains amongst many things, a 'chipset driver inf' update, which is needed to install, except when user has installed SP1. It is a USB 2.0 update. Well last time immediately after Windows i installed SP1. I don't remember if i without it would get the same silly "remove new hardware safely" message as Olvidarse.

Olvidarse
13-03-05, 00:09
Originally posted by joseph:
Oh!!! That's nothing to worry! :D You see that is standard Windows procedure, when you installed new hardware it notifies you that you can safely remove it again. With the emphasis on 'safely'. Haven't you noticed that before? I got that message after i installed my </font> router</font> pci-IDE controller.</font> and saw it on others's pc's after webcam install.</font>The message will be gone tomorrow by itself. On my laptop that icon was never there. But then again it was store-bought and not home-made.

Does Windows XP come with extra software, like MS Word or MS Excel? My laptop had them, but I can't find them on my computer.

Olvidarse
13-03-05, 00:14
Originally posted by Chug a Bug:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Heh, thanks. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif But I'm also the loudest. :( That ASUS AMD Cool and Quiet thing doesn't seem to be working (or I haven't noticed any audible changes of the CPU/fan)... Or maybe it's coming from the fan in the Lian-Li case!!! It is! It's the big fan in the back - should I apply some sort of fan lubricant (it makes a medium-loud whirring noise)? Case fans can be noisy. You have 2 options in this case: you can either install some quiet fans (like SilenX fans which are very good, less than 21db, but are more expensive than regular fans) or you can buy a fan controller. These vary from a simple device that plugs into the fan lead to a more elaborate device that fits into one of the drive bays on the front of the PC.

I have one of the latter myself. There are 4 knobs which control the speed of 4 fans inside the case. You can save a lot of noise by turning down the RPM. It also has a display on the front which monitors the temperature of the CPU, Hard driver and fan speeds via a number of probes which are placed in appropriate places inside the PC. You can see it on the front of my PC it's the thing at the top of the drive bays lit up by the blue LED's:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/chug-a-bug/DSCF0020.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/chug-a-bug/DSCF0118.jpg

Yes I know what you're thinking the PC is at risk of overheating etc. But really thats not the case. The fans are just slowed not stopped. And the temperature inside is easily monitored. </font>[/QUOTE]Is there a way to find out how loud your computer is (in db)?

Chug a Bug
13-03-05, 00:47
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Is there a way to find out how loud your computer is (in db)? A noisemeter I imagine? I only quoted the fan manufacturer's readings for the fan I didn't actually measure it myself. All I know is my PC is fairly quiet.

[ 13. March 2005, 02:01: Message edited by: Chug a Bug ]

Chug a Bug
13-03-05, 00:50
Originally posted by Olvidarse:
Does Windows XP come with extra software, like MS Word or MS Excel? My laptop had them, but I can't find them on my computer. No, they are like you say, extras.

Joseph
13-03-05, 01:55
Your laptop had a preinstalled Windows, with various software.
What you have now is much better: you have pure WindowsXP and you can buy and install Microsoft Office. You will have full control of what's installed onto your hdd and what isn't. That's always better than pre-install, don't you think?

Olvidarse
13-03-05, 02:27
No, but trying to delete Windows Messenger is a pain. Right now I'm transferring all of my files from my laptop to my computer via ipod, however when I tried to download the ipod software it said it needed my serial number (as it did the first time). This is impossible without peeling off the skin I stuck onto it :( . And it's a pretty skin too..

Joseph
13-03-05, 12:31
Olvidarse, to delete Windows Messenger is very easy.
I copied for you this simple way:
xp_messsenger_remove.vbs - Remove Windows Messenger
© Doug Knox - 3/30/02

</font> 1. If you prefer to remove Windows Messenger manually, click Start, Run and enter the following command:

RunDll32 advpack.dll,LaunchINFSection %windir%\inf\msmsgs.inf,BLC.Remove

__________________________________________________ __</font> 2. This will prevent a long delay when opening Outlook Express if you have the Contacts pane enabled. Click Start, Run... and enter REGEDIT Go to:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Outlook Express

Right click in the right pane and select New, Dword value. Give it the name Hide Messenger Double click this new entry and set the value to 2.</font>
This page last updated 08/19/2003 13:30
All material © Doug Knox

Olvidarse
13-03-05, 17:58
Joseph, it worked like a charm. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif

I found out why my computer was so loud: a little wire was being dragged by the VPU fan. That would justify the buzzing noise. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/jumper.gif

Olvidarse
17-03-05, 01:41
I ran the 3DMark03 and Aquamark3 benchmark tests to see how well my computer performs, and I only scored 31,531 points on Aquamark3 and 4,263 points on 3DMark03. At 1 gigabite of RAM, an AMD 64 3400 CPU, and the Nvidia 600GT, why is my system so slow compared to lower (in specifications) setups?

I haven't purchased a sound card yet, but I will get onto that when I need it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/Sausagewithteeth/Webbings/3dmark03.jpg

:(

[ 17. March 2005, 02:42: Message edited by: Olvidarse ]

Joseph
17-03-05, 01:49
I only scored 31,531 points on Aquamark3 and 4,263 points on 3DMark03. compared to...?
Have you posted your result to their website? Do you realise the most fanatic benchmarkers are showing off there? They don't have a 6600GT but a 6800GT Ultra (or even 2, in sli mode), or a X850XT Platinum Edition...

[ 17. March 2005, 02:51: Message edited by: joseph ]

Joseph
17-03-05, 01:56
And of course they all have the Audigy2 btw.

Joseph
17-03-05, 02:06
Plus: they overclock.