View Full Version : ELITE PROGRAMMERS LOOK HERE!!
Well, since there is no Direct 3D support for Tombraider 1, game looks pretty ugly (except for those who runs it with 3dfx hardware and driver).
Now, there must be someone on this planet who is both a well skilled programmer and a Tombraider fan that will provide us with a fixed exe, patch or whatever that gives Tombraider 1 3d support.
If YOU can succeed with that you will be a HERO! :D
Sure there is one!!!
Glidos (http://www.glidos.net/) :D
The coolest graphics for TR1!!!
How wonderful
but isnīt those glidos drivers only for 3dfx based cards?
The graphics look ugly even with a GeForce4 dear (if you manage to run it). You have to see TR1 with Glidos!! :D
I have ran Tombraider 1 on my older computer with a Voodoo2 card with glidos, looks wonderful :D
RavenLettan
16-07-03, 07:49
i've tried Glidos... found it to be a horrible addon, plus they charge for it.
there are still quite a few bugs i've seen, like the menu's disappear or only display half the back buffer triangles and the ingames graphics seems to also be pretty buggy too.
cheaper and more stable to just pickup a PowerVR (like Apocolypse) or Voodoo2 second hand, can get one for like $5-10 now and you don't even have to replace with your own card cause those early accelerators were tandom cards http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
though have been thinking lately about how possible it would be to actually get a Full Dx going ... having said that you could always do what i did and translate the levels into TR4 format and then just use the Level Editor Exe http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
http://namida.com/kaminarimon/tmp/tr1_05.jpg
Doesn't look buggy to me. But of course, it strongly depends on your setup...
There's nothing wrong in charging for a good software that enhances old games to such extents (TR is not the only game supported by Glidos). Besides, you certainly won't find any Voodoo/Voodoo2/Banshee card out there that matches the results of the OpenGlide wrapper on a modern OpenGL compatible card (ie: even an ATI Rage 128 does the job perfectly - not even mentioning my current GeForce2 Titanium). I should know, I've been a long time 3dfx customer since the original Voodoo add-on up to the Voodoo 5.
Anyway, good luck on your TR1 conversion. FYI, it was attempted before by Treeble (http://www.trle.net/reviews/QualopecTreeble.htm), but he seems to have given up his project some months ago because of a chronical lack of time. Unless you are Treeble under a new nickname :cool:
Hopefully Eidos will give you the green light... though you would probably have lived safer by not advising them of your project. Technically, your conversion is a custom level, it's not the original one per say; but Eidos might have to disagree if they begin to think there may be some commercial potential in your work...
RavenLettan
18-07-03, 23:03
suppose it depends on the setup, but i've tried Glidos on my GeForce2mx/GeForce3Ti200/GeForce4Ti4200/GeForceTi4800/GeForceFX5900Ti and none of them run Glidos right - if on the offchance i do get it working where its not displaying only the lower triangle half of the screen, all the textures end up screwed up.
And although sure Glidos supports more than just TR, i've noticed all the games it does support already have Voodoo setup. I currently have a Creative Voodoo2 16Mb SLi setup in my GeForceFX machine at home, and i picked both of them up as a SLi combo for only $25 - and it runs all old dos games like TR perfectly and much faster than with any modern card thats being wrapped.
i mean the only two games on the Glidos i actually own and play are TR & Carmageddon, and they both have 3DFX versions. The graphics look just as good, and without any glitchs or anything.
if Glidos could actually take any game from DOS and update its graphics i'd probably consider it worth it, but as you have to have them 3D accellerated to begin with and the official 3d accellerators are just as cheap to get second hand, i mean whats the point?
Because Glidos is cheaper than $25 dollars and you can download it straight away perhaps?
...a voice from the darkness.....
I've been using GliDOS since the middle of 2001 - after my good old Voodoo1 card crashed -, from its 1.5 version. I tried its different versions with the following cards on my computer: ASUS V3400 TNT1 16 MB, ELSA TNT2 PRO 32 MB, Voodoo3 2000 16 MB, GeForce2 MX200 32 MB, ATI Radeon 9000 Pro 64 MB. The last is my latest...
I think, GliDOS is better than playing TR1+Gold with a 3Dfx-patch for instance, because You can play it in only 640x480 with those patches. But with GliDOS, the game is ready up to 1600x1200. I also have to mention that it's very fast with my Radeon 9000 Pro with a Tualatin-Celeron at 1350 MHz: I use 800x600 resolution because of my 14" monitor, and the framerate is around at 30 FPS (F2 key) almost always when the desktop is in 32 bit, and it's always at 30 FPS without lags when the desktop is in 16 bit. Actually, 16 bit is more than enough for TR1+Gold and the game is so smooth and beautiful (no glitches) with GliDOS in this color depth...
Oh, and I still have one more reason: I have Windows XP Pro, and that old DOS-game still runs correctly and with all sounds, including the ambients what are audio tracks on the CD - because GliDOS restores them, it makes them listenable in the game (without GliDOS, I couldn't hear them in the game)...
There is only ONE feature what I've been still missing from GliDOS and I'm planning to write this to Paul Gardiner once: the built in screenshot function... :cool:
SYS "Whew! That girl has got one bad attitude."
[ 20. July 2003, 08:44: Message edited by: SYS ]
RavenLettan
20-07-03, 16:55
Glidos is $19 ... i'd hardly think thats that much cheaper to warrent it - and you might get it right away but you also get that spinning logo thingie right away too.
Not to mention the Voodoo are 100% compatible, Glidos isn't.
you might be able to jack up Glidos to stupid resolutions, but at 640x480x32 on a Voodoo2 SLi using FSAA 4x looks better to me.
not to mention i don't get those ugly leaks in the level that appear when using my Radeon 9800pro or GeForceFX at the higher resolutions.
Not to mention that annoying pause every 30-40seconds for a few seconds where the game just hangs waiting for the buffer to be cleaned.
It's quite annoying.
also how exactly do you use the 3dfx exe? because the version of Glidos i use only accepts the Voodoo one (which i'd be using anyways)
i mean it'd be a nice program, if it weren't so damn buggy ... and it'd be pretty simply using DirectX or OpenGL to intercept the data being sent to the graphics card, translate it and then send it onto a current 3D accelerator.
though to be honest i don't know why Core don't just release the TR engine now, i mean the first one is 8years old and DOS Only ... they'd have nothing to loose from releasing it.
But then again there were alot of fans that wanted David Brabham to release Elite2's source into the community, being that it's 12years old and in asm ... i mean what possibly use would he still have for keeping it within the company!?
some developers just are weird if you ask me.
Originally posted by Raven_:
Not to mention the Voodoo are 100% compatible, Glidos isn't.100% compatible with what? We're talking about old DOS games that needed dirty hacks to run on primitive 3D cards before the advent of OpenGL and Direct3D. Each new card (even within a same family) required its specific patch. The Voodoo 2 was especially known for its poor compatibility rate and graphic glitches with early Voodoo games like TR (not because of any technical inferiority but because Glide2x was still extremely experimental). Don't take it personal Raven, but you seem to have a pretty bad knowledge of the Voodoo world.
On the contrary, the OpenGlide library used by Glidos has a very high compatibility rate with Glide1x and Glide2x games. Support for Glide3x is in the works. And I as said, OpenGlide outputs a graphic quality that Voodoo cards can only dream of.
Calling Glidos a buggy program is very unfair, since you're one of the very few that seem to have a serious problem with it. I certainly don't have the 'buffer freezings' you report and I never heard of that before either. You'd be well advised to pay a visit to Vogons (http://vogons.zetafleet.com/) and give us some constructive criticism, because I don't recall having seen you there in the past.
Now you're satisfied with your Voodoo board and I'm just glad that it suits your needs. Just don't spread false information about Glidos. If you have a problem, come over at Vogons and report it to Paul Gardiner. He's a very open guy when it comes to suggestions and bug reports.
I'm not interested in a pointless flamewar on this fine forum, and neither are the moderators. Let's call it a day and I'll see you next time at Vogons.
[Edit] It's David Braben, not Brabham ;)
[ 20. July 2003, 18:47: Message edited by: Kaminari ]
Newbie alert! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif :D
Originally posted by Kaminari:
Anyway, good luck on your TR1 conversion. FYI, it was attempted before by Treeble (http://www.trle.net/reviews/QualopecTreeble.htm), but he seems to have given up his project some months ago because of a chronical lack of time. Unless you are Treeble under a new nickname :cool: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif Thanks Kaminari
The conversion project is actually leaded by KingSpyder. He has done The Caves and The City Of Vilcabamba. You can download both at www.trle.net (http://www.trle.net) (look under Artimus Brown).
I then joined him and built Tomb Of Qualopec. It's quite hard to do a remake! A few days ago, KingSpyder has announced he's back and I am seriously thinkin in retaking the project.
Thanks http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Excellent news, Treeble! Glad to see you here http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
...a voice from the darkness.....
Raven,
Well, Voodoo2 doesn't support 32 bit color depth. And even the first V3 cards didn't support 32 bit and some later V3 cards only counted in 32 bit, but the display was only 16 bit or vice versa...
Calling resolutions "stupid" above 640x480 is a bit strange for me. Why is 1024x768 "stupid"? It's higher. http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif What resolutions do You use for other games (from TR2 for instance)? I think You also prefer higher resolutions if possible...
I'm also satisfied with my 800x600/32bit with 6x FSAA and 16x Trilinear Aniso filtering...with my Radeon 9000 Pro... ;) I can attach a screenshot...
I had a serious problem with GliDOS, but only with the very early versions (around 1.7): it wasn't graphical problem though, it dropped me back to Windows completely randomly when I saved my game, and I lost my current saved game. That was really annoying, but again, I found only this unpleasent issue in the very early versions. Today's GliDOS is not buggy, but very stable: I often make screenshots (mainly for our BugSection) from the game with the Print Screen key, and I have to leave the game when I make one (therefore could be useful a built-in screenshot support), and then I restart it again. Sometimes there are some other applications - IE, Outlook Express, etc. - what are running with GliDOS and TR1. But the Glide Server and games don't crash. They work without any problem. But it wasn't true with the very early versions: I usually closed all applications or rebooted before I ran GliDOS...
Anyway more or less You're right about compatibility, I'll tell my opinion. Well, I'm afraid about GliDOS isn't forever: when I reinstall my op.system, it needs an unlock-key update. No problem: Paul gives me a new one. But will I be able to ask Paul about a new unlock key after hmm...let's say after 20 years? But if I have a Voodoo2 for instance, then I can use it on an older computer with older op.systems without problem. Okay, perhaps I'm not right fully with this theory - it's hard to foretell the future -, I'm just afraid about how things will come...
Again: I have no glitches with GliDOS. No problem at all. And the ambient-reason is still here: I couldn't hear the audio tracks under XP without GliDOS, and no, I don't want to keep 2 different op.systems on my HDD at the moment, especially not for only TR1+Gold... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
I also agree about the "completely final" solution would be a real "Windows-version" for TR1+Gold, but as I know CORE, we can wait for it forever, and I don't think They would support a serious Fan and elite programmer in one in this thing...
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/bash.gif
SYS "Whew! That girl has got one bad attitude."
[ 20. July 2003, 18:57: Message edited by: SYS ]
The 16-bit mode of the Voodoo3 and later boards is actually a pseudo 24-bit mode with smart dithering. It looks nearly as good as a real 32-bit mode (check Unreal Tournament for a good example).
Originally posted by SYS:
But will I be able to ask Paul about a new unlock key after hmm...let's say after 20 years?No worry about this. Things have been secured with the Vogons administrators, should the worst happen to Paul in the future (I hope not).
There is a free version of Glidos ;)
It can be downloaded from here (http://www.tombraiders.it/trle/download.asp). http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
The free version is v1.7! http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/privateeye.gif
Welcome to the forum Treeble http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/wave.gif
Actually, it is possible to have a Geforce support TR in its pure form. You just need to have the right combination of things in order for it to work.
RavenLettan
20-07-03, 22:17
I'm also satisfied with my 800x600/32bit with 6x FSAA and 16x Trilinear Aniso filtering...with my Radeon 9000 Pro...that'd be some achievement
FSAA only grows by double each time
1x1 = FSAA 1x
2x2 = FSAA 2x
3x3 = FSAA 4x
4x4 = FSAA 8x
5x5 = FSAA 16x
...
to that effect only GeForceFX support FSAA over 4x in realtime (and it has to be a hard coded feature at that)
16x Triliner Anistrophic Filtering... firstly why exactly would you have 2 forms of Filtering, it would either be Triliner or Anistrophic ... secondly only 4x is currenly supported by any card.
if you want ridiculous values like those then you have to get them in render engines which don't render in realtime or infact would even use the Graphics Card to produce such things.
add this with the fact that the Radeon 9000pro isn't capable of Antistrophic Realtime filtering nor FSAA over 2x... kinda puts a kibosh on what your saying really.
Voodoo cards work perfectly with the lasted version of Glide2x and 3x (for Voodoo 1/2 and Voodoo 3/4/5 respectively) ... there used to be alot of incompatilibities around 7-8years ago when they were first released, but since then alot of developers have used the full OpenGL library to adapt the drivers of these cards, just like there are current Glide2x & Glide3x drivers for GeForce based cards as well now... which means there are no hack around - it is being supported exclusively and 100%.
and saying that i'm not on the forums is really there would be quite a moot point, considering a few reasons...
a) i might not want to be on them
b) i might be on them but under a different username
c) i might not use Glidos on a regular basis enough to actually want to spend time there
i have tried the program on alot of machines with different graphics cards, as i have alot at my disposal here and at work.
When something only goes wrong on a single machine i'd just use another, when it goes wrong on a majority thats a bug, and if i goes wrong on all of them then its a fatal bug.
why should i help make a program better that i really don't want to use.
you might be happy with Glidos, but i'm not - i don't think its worth the money for the limited game support.
and really whats the difference between 16bit and 32bit anyway when the textures being used are 8bit... unless your going to add effects which need 32bit suchas fog/alpha effects etc... which none of the games listed use.
so really 32bit - 16bit there's no real difference in the graphics.
i usually play all of the TR's in 640x480 with FSAA 4x Anistropic 2x Texture Sharping On HSTC Set to Quality.
it looks good & it plays good ... i don't need an extremely resolution just to enjoy a game, the only time i generally up the resolution is if there is extra detail you can view from it - in games like Unreal2 / Angel of Darkness / C&C Generals ... when having a higher resolution will actually add more to the graphics and increase the atmosphere.
In a game like TR 1-5 though it doesn't add anything, it just stops the jaggies being so bad ... and with FSAA on you don't get any jaggies, so really whats the point?
if i wanted hyper realism i'd just go about replacing all of the models & gfx.
...a voice from the darkness.....
First of all, my monitor crashed yesterday and now I'm using a small TV. You can imagine: it's terrible to read and write, so sorry about mistakes in the text... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Kaminari, thanks for the infos about color depths. To the rest: AMEN, I hope so... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Bokkie, You're right. Fortunately, I have all versions from 1.2, but I had some bad experiences with 1.7; perhaps 1.9 would be perfect as well...
Raven, my card supports 6x FSAA under 1024x768 resolution; and it also supports 16x Aniso. Should I make a digital photo from its box and attach some screenshots? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif I'll do it after I get my currently crashed monitor back... :( Anyway, I think there is no problem here at all: You think that, I think this, You're satisfied with Your settings and I'm also satisfied with mine... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif And that's good, that's the point. And we are on the same opinion about CORE should write a correct D3D/OpenGL version for TR1+Gold. Yes, that would be fine...
SYS "Whew! That girl has got one bad attitude."
RavenLettan
21-07-03, 17:43
well considering i have the big brother cards of 9700pro and 9800pro and they don't...
there is that, and the fact that it is PHYSICALLY impossible to have these modes.
16x Anistrophic isn't even used in rendering engines, the highest it goes right now is 4x simply because past that its too blurry to be any good (and i know this from experience!)
as for 6x FSAA, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE.
you' would need a 2.5x2.5 sampling rate which is impossible!
FSAA 1x = Samples 1x1 = Texel 1x1 = 1Bit
FSAA 2x = Samples 2x2 = Texel 2x2 = 2Bit
FSAA 4x = Samples 3x3 = Texel 4x4 = 3Bit
FSAA 8x = Samples 4x4 = Texel 8x8 = 4Bit
when you work on the binary level you values grow by the same ammount
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256 ... hense 0->256 = 1Byte which is made up of 8Bit.
it is physically impossible for your computer to achieve a rate of 6x6 Texels without FlipFlop support, something that the Windows Operating System and DirectX just don't give you.
if ya gonna lie man atleast do your research on what is technically possible, i mean god even my 9800pro doesn't do anything over FSAA 4x so why would your card be able to do more than mine?
[ 21. July 2003, 18:44: Message edited by: Raven_ ]
...a voice from the darkness.....
Raven, click here (http://www.sys-store03.hungarianpage.com/Images/SYS_Desktop.jpg) for a picture about my current desktop with my current ATI Radeon 9000 Pro D3D-settings; Catalyst 3.5 driver... Perhaps ATI thinks things different, I don't know, but as You can see, I have these options and they works fine... I have to admit again that 6x FSAA works only under 1024x768 scree resolution...
Later I can make more screenies but this time don't ask me for this, because of the extrenky poor display quality of this small TV... :( I'll be back in a few days with a better displayer, I hope, but this time I don't want to kill my eyes, so my computer is usually turned off... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Oh, I just found some details about Radeon 9000 series' FSAA & Aniso filterings, so click here (http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/radeon/radeon-2.shtml) for it...
SYS "Whew! That girl has got one bad attitude."
[ 01. August 2003, 01:03: Message edited by: SYS ]
RavenLettan
21-07-03, 23:07
SmoothVision eh... that isn't FSAA - i don't care what people and ATi want to call it.
the results of the two are dramtically different, even the setup of them are.
if you open up a DirectX game and try to use MultiSamples a Radeon 9000 is only capable of 2x hardware ... you can go upto 4x in reference.
SmoothVision doesn't produce the same effects.
Infact its producing some quite poor effects as the idea isn't just to blur the scene, but just smooth out the edges which makes everything appear real.
as for the Anistophic, again that is some fanciful upgrade which also IS NOT real ... just ATi's way of putting something on there to make it sound better.
the whole point in a Anistophic filter is to technically do what FSAA does, but on the pixels of a texture during MipMapping.
I don't use the Catalyst drivers for my Radeons cause they have alot of features on them which claim to be there and when i tried to use them in Hardware mode in DirectX it jumped into Refference mode (for example Shaders v2.x)
take a screenshot of Tomb Raider 4 or Chronicles using SmoothVision 6x and Anistropic 4x @ 640x480
... ...
i'll take one in a sec and show show you what they should look like using the Hardware
RavenLettan
21-07-03, 23:44
oki...
640x480x32 @ 32bit Textures (http://members.lycos.co.uk/timesaga/fsaa.jpg)
1024x768x32 @ 32bit Textures (http://members.lycos.co.uk/timesaga/fsaa2.jpg)
i'd of taken on in Chronicles but right now it seems to be playing up ... tried to install the Service Pack but its acting up again.
But notice how the bump mapping remains quite prodominant even with the FSAA. i'll see about taking a few pics once i boot up my radeon machine - try to get these with SmoothVision.
...a voice from the darkness.....
Raven,
Yes, You're right: SmoothVision is not FSAA. But SmoothVision is an algorithm for full screen anti-aliasing like FSAA. And I'm sorry, but ATI's Aniso seems real to me... http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Sorry, I can't see any point in this argument anymore. I'm here with some screenshots but I think we should end it here. I'm repeating myself again: I'm sure about You're right in a lots of things, but again, You are satisfied with Your settings and I am satisfied with mine settings (and card). That's the point. And ELEN should say a big *BUMP* here for us, because this topic is about TR1+Gold and their D3D/OpenGL support and not about showing screenies from TR4 for instance... ;)
Okay, here are my screens...
1. screenshot (http://www.sys-store03.hungarianpage.com/Images/SM6-Ani4bi_640x480x32.JPG): 640x480x32bit with 6x SmoothVision and 4x Bilinear Anisotropic filtering...
2. screenshot (http://www.sys-store03.hungarianpage.com/Images/SM6-Ani4bi-OFF_1024x768x32.JPG): 1024x768x32bit with 6x SmoothVision and 4x Bilinear Anisotropic filtering, but something went wrong here and the features turned off, so it doesn't look very well...
3. screenshot (http://www.sys-store03.hungarianpage.com/Images/SM6-Ani16tri_1024x768x32.JPG): 1024x768x32bit with 6x SmoothVision and 16x Trilinear Anisotropic filtering...
4. screenshot (http://www.sys-store03.hungarianpage.com/Images/StreetBazaar1.jpg): 800x600x32bit with 6x SmoothVision and 16x Trilinear Anisotropic filtering...
5. screenshot (http://www.sys-store03.hungarianpage.com/Images/StreetBazaar2.jpg): 800x600x32bit with 6x SmoothVision and 16x Trilinear Anisotropic filtering...
Sorry but I was a bit lazy with the pictures, so there's a 16x Trilinear Aniso instead of 4x Bilinear Aniso. It's too late here and I'm dead tired...
The point is that we showed our screenies to each other: Your screens are nice, mine screens are nice also, so where's the problem here? Nowhere... :D
SYS "Whew! That girl has got one bad attitude."
[ 01. August 2003, 01:07: Message edited by: SYS ]
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