PDA

View Full Version : Goths And Crosses


Kamrusepas
04-01-06, 21:57
I've been wondering... why do goths [generally speaking, I don't know if every goth in the world] wear crosses? [usually in jewellery]

Now I haven't dug deep into the deeper meaning of gothness [and I am not one, which is the idea many people get of me], but on the surface, it doesn't look like a very Christian/religious ideology.

So could someone - goth or not - tell me the reason behind this?

:wve:

Tombcool
04-01-06, 22:08
Goth just means expressing yourself, in a very unique and different way. It doesn't mean you worship the devil and you do all this evil stuff. No, that's not what goth is. Some people think that just because a goth dresses all in black and in black makeup they think that they are evil.

It's hard to explain, I just think they wear a cross to just because they want to. Heck, some goths are religious (have religions like Christianity and Jewdism (sp?)) and wear the cross because they are a part of those religions.

Catlantean
04-01-06, 22:09
Not a Goth or an expert on commercial youth subcultures, for all I know they might wear it only because it's "cool" but what I think is the reason for the cross being so popular is its pagan origin and connection to mysticism and magic. The cross as a symbol is a lot older than Christianity. It was used in Ancient Egypt in the form of the Ankh, and a cross with equal-length arms (like the + sign) is probably one of the oldest symbols known to humanity. And as I'm guessing that most Goth crosses don't have Christ on them, maybe it's the mysticism behind the symbol that makes it so popular.

Kamrusepas
04-01-06, 22:19
Yes, now that you mentioned it: ankh seems to be just as popular among goths as crosses.

But I'm still wondering... I mean with that dark theme anyways, say a pentagram [upside down, because it's generally perceived diabolic] would fit better?

Catlantean
04-01-06, 22:27
The pentagram (another ancient symbol) is also very popular with Goths, even more than the cross I'd say :) Just check out a random Gothic jewelery catalogue, it'll be full of them.

Kamrusepas
04-01-06, 22:33
Hm, I've seen a lot of pentagrams there, true. But still, the cross seems to be huge among them.

Damn, I gotta make friends with a real goth [yeah, where am I gonna find one of those in this promised land of posers?] and ask :p

Legend
04-01-06, 22:36
Goth just means expressing yourself, in a very unique and different way. Then why do they all look the same? :confused:

Kamrusepas
04-01-06, 22:39
:vlol:

Good point :tmb:

Neteru
04-01-06, 22:40
Then why do they all look the same? :confused:

Precisely. Being a 'Goth' is neither unique nor different.

Catlantean
04-01-06, 22:45
"Goth" is a commercial teen subculture and that makes it not original by definition. I guess that some people are truly fascinated by dark things (and ironically enough they never go around declaring themselves as Goths or even dress like that), but the Gothic community's made up primarily of teens who find it cool to throw around all that vampire/Satanist stuff without ever understanding what's it about. But I still think they're better than gangstas :)

Kamrusepas
04-01-06, 22:46
Maybe some people really find themselves in gothisism [I'm pretty sure that's not a word] and now the whole thing's just being ruined by posers.

Catlantean
04-01-06, 22:59
Happens to it all :wve:

I remember I read once about the Goths in Japan, how you could walk down the street, see a Gothic girl in her striking and complex clothing, and then just walk into a shop and purchase that look from head to toe. Talk about decadence of creativity :p

Kamrusepas
04-01-06, 23:06
I'm glad I don't fall into any clear category [goth, hiphopper etc], I'd have a pretty damn hard time trying to justify my ism and explaining that I'm the real thing :D

Pipolinne
04-01-06, 23:36
That's a doubt I've always had,lol!

The only connection I see between them is the Gothic architectural religious style ,but it doesn't seem very logical.Anyway,Gothic/Romantic poetry was mainly focused in dark/obscure themes,so perhaps the cross was a legacy from that.

xMiSsCrOfTx
04-01-06, 23:44
I don't think being "Goth" is all that original anyway. I mean, in our world, being original is already so unoriginal, it's scary. Everyone falls into some kind of trend, or look, or style, and it becomes so unoriginal so quickly. Yet still they claim they're "unique".

Catlantean
04-01-06, 23:56
Each one of us is unique - just like everyone else :D

Catapharact
05-01-06, 00:12
That's a doubt I've always had,lol!

The only connection I see between them is the Gothic architectural religious style ,but it doesn't seem very logical.Anyway,Gothic/Romantic poetry was mainly focused in dark/obscure themes,so perhaps the cross was a legacy from that.

Nope; No connection whatsoever actually ;) Lol. Actalyy the Goths should be refered to as the Normans LOL! That's where the connection lies.

Lonely Istari
05-01-06, 08:04
in our world, being original is already so unoriginal, it's scary. Everyone falls into some kind of trend, or look, or style, and it becomes so unoriginal so quickly. Yet still they claim they're "unique".

This is so true. The youth of today is so obsessed with being distinct from others. Yet there is no distinction; only grouping and labelling. One of these days it will be unique to be un-unique. But if your un-uniqueness makes you unique... are you really unique or just trying to be one of the un-unique...-ers...:pi:

Woah. I'm getting too philosophical for my brain to fathom. lol

Melonie Tomb Raider
05-01-06, 08:51
I agree with what most people are saying. Goth is extremely unoriginal, it's a "cool" crowd that people like to follow. In my honest oppinion, goths are followers, that's why they restrict themselves so much in the way they look. Black is mainly the only color they wear... That's so unoriginal. I wear clothes that I think are cool, regardless of the category it fits into.

I've met several goth people, and have even become friends with some. I have nothing against them personally, but that's something I would never do. The fact is, most of them aren't even goth, they're just posers. Your hardcore goths are the people that bite the heads off of little animals and stuff, all the other "goths" are just posers. I don't understand how goth is so in right now, it's something that almost every teen is getting into. It's lame if you ask me... A cry for attention.

And about the cross issue... I figure it's represented in a sacriligous (sp?) manner. Since goth is really a satanist practice...

Kamrusepas
05-01-06, 09:01
And about the cross issue... I figure it's represented in a sacriligous (sp?) manner. Since goth is really a satanist practice...

I'm sorry, but based on what? And if they wanted to mock the cross, why not turn it upside down like some others?

And I think you're confusing satanists with satan worshippers here.

Ampersand
05-01-06, 10:59
What about the Christian goths? :D

Kamrusepas
05-01-06, 11:39
Yeah, I don't think gothisism rules out any religions.

Catlantean
05-01-06, 12:14
IMO, Goths, Chavs and all other "cool cliques" share the same religion - Consumerism. Maybe there is some philosophy behind those subcultures, but for most people it all comes down to wear these clothes, buy this CD, hang out at that club and you'll be considered cool. And God forbid that you step out of the mold.

And before some Goth or hiphopper comes along and calls me a stereotypical bitter uglie :p none of my posts here are supposed to mean that you are a cliche and that I hate you. Some people truly find themselves in subcultures and I respect that. It's just that I find it a bit sad that so many young people today would rather be stereotypes than themselves.

Pipolinne
05-01-06, 12:28
@ Catapharact:

Hello!Good to have you back in the forum :)!

I don't think Normand-Goths are related with the groups of people who call themselves Goths. Anyway,sorry to disagree,but it seems impossible to deny a connection between a Literary/Artistic movement like the goth/pre-romantic/romantic and what we actually call a gothic form of Art and some manifestations from those groups.


I agree with Kamrusepas and Catlantean,though. In Portugal , we have this so called trendy place called Bairro Alto,where,in the less posh part,you can see some boys and girls dressed in black,normally looking like goth beggars.It's a little bit pathetic,because most of them don't even know a single goth book.But there they are,all together like siamese twins,in blocks.Normally they all think and say the same , like the same groups...it's boring as hell!

Kamrusepas
05-01-06, 13:29
IMO, Goths, Chavs and all other "cool cliques" share the same religion - Consumerism. Maybe there is some philosophy behind those subcultures, but for most people it all comes down to wear these clothes, buy this CD, hang out at that club and you'll be considered cool. And God forbid that you step out of the mold.


I've never found goths commercial. But then again, I have no idea what kinda goths you have over there. I don't think I've seen any real ones over here.

Catlantean
05-01-06, 15:22
I've never found goths commercial. But then again, I have no idea what kinda goths you have over there. I don't think I've seen any real ones over here.

No kinda Goths overhere :D I guess I'm as Gothic as one can find here - meaning only that I dress mostly in black :p I do like dark art, writings and music, but I don't think it's the same kind of dark that Goths like. Not romantic enough, that is :D

The reason why I say that Goths are commercial is because any clique for which clothes/make-up is more important than personality is commercial. That forces people to buy, buy, buy to be cool, and Goths are no exception. Though I do find the Gothic look quite pretty, and admire the ones who arrange their look themselves instead of just buying those expensive threads :tmb:

And I don't say that ALL Goths are commercial. I say that posers are commercial, and well, most of any cool clique's made up of posers.

lorien elf
12-01-06, 01:40
hehe, interesting thread. Nicely said, Catlantean: "But I still think they're better than gangstas." I couldnt agree more. I haven't actually noticed too many goths wearing crosses. Though I have seen other people wear them, like preps and stuff. I think that's because I'm in the Bible Belt of the USA and it's culturally significant to go to church or claim one is a Christian. It only bothers me 'cause some don't live like Christians if that's what they really are...not that I'm exactly criticising....:)
But anyway, I wondered about that...the people who get into Satanism and witchcraft when they don't really know what it is or what they're doing. I have my own opinions about it and much is based on what I've read but I know of blah others' opinions too. uh anyway, this be a cool thread, glad I found it. :)

SlinkyRaider
12-01-06, 01:44
I am not really sure why they wear crosses! I will agree with Ampersand on this one, lol, they might be Christian goths? :confused:

lorien elf
12-01-06, 01:48
I'm sorry, but based on what? And if they wanted to mock the cross, why not turn it upside down like some others?

And I think you're confusing satanists with satan worshippers here.
There's a difference?
And about posers: I think someone called me that once, but am not sure, since it was a creature I'm not familiar with anyone and if I could have had my way, I would have ripped her head off or her throat. But anyway, I don't understand why some want to say "poser". How would you know? is there even a "true" gothic style? I wear black because I ****ing want to, I'm not trying to copy anyone or pretend to be anyone else. If I could spend more money on it, I'd probably add more to my attire...but I don't go around saying I'm a goth or that I want to be one...these invisible labels humans have...so stupid.
If I dress more like a prep though, will they start calling me a poser then? or am I just fitting into the mob? And why talk about goths like they're entities of another species? "i'm friends with some of them"... really, no offense but that just still sounds patronizing, just like saying "I like black people and am friends with some of them..." when one could say "I have black friends..." if you were making a point that is. sorry for dragging that all out when it's mostly pointless, I was just curious.

Kamrusepas
12-01-06, 10:10
But anyway, I wondered about that...the people who get into Satanism and witchcraft when they don't really know what it is or what they're doing.

That's one of the things posers do. They take up some ideology because it happens to be cool at the moment.

There's a difference?


Yes. Satan worshippers worhip Satan, satanists don't.

Pipolinne
12-01-06, 12:33
Witchcraft not always is the same than satanism.Those who believe in Wicca aren't satanists,for instance.

Nephili
12-01-06, 13:41
Ive seen the Anarchy sign on alot of Goths aswell, ive never understood what it means though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/fenixjunkie/anarchy.png

Neteru
12-01-06, 13:49
I'm sure many who wear it have no idea either Nephili. The Anarchy symbol is the symbol of, get this... Anarchy. :D Seriously, it's about advocating the rule of anarchy, which satanists advocate too. And that is, simply put, every man for himself. Or, as typically held by satanists, what Aleister Crowley said: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. In other words, no law as we know it but that everyone can do what they want. And this does not necessarily mean the absence of morals.

Pipolinne
12-01-06, 13:57
Allow me to disagree,but that's not Anarchy principles.When Bakhunine,in the XIXth century,first published his ideas,his principles were that,one day,Mankind would be so free,the respect for the Other would be a natural thing,therefore,no need for laws or institutions.Besides,he considered institutions like a way of manipulating the people and maintining the power of the dominant classes.

Unfortunately,these principles were biased,and,yesterday,when we see those symbols in the walls,"spamming" monuments,I'm positive the writer wasn't thinking on Bakhinine!

Nephili
12-01-06, 14:04
Ok so which one of those statements is right?

Neteru
12-01-06, 14:06
It IS the same thing Pipoline. Every man for himself in satanist canon does not mean wanton disrespect for others. I did say that it doesn't necessarily mean the absence of morals. And Crowleys Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law does not mean :cen: everyone over.

Nephili
12-01-06, 14:32
Ahh right, thanks for the explaination, at least i understand the meaning of Anarchy now :wve:

Pipolinne
12-01-06, 14:34
It isn't the same thing,Neteru.Anarchists do not defend each man/woman for themselve,they defend the abolition of institutions,once the three main principles of the French Revolution would be spontaneous in every human being.

Neteru
12-01-06, 14:43
I've chosen the wrong phrase Pipoline. Every man for himself has an altogether different meaning in the traditional sense. What I am trying to convey is the same principle as Anarchy in that no person is governed by a set of laws from an institution or government body, but that each man, or each person is responsible to themselves and for themselves. i.e. they can govern themselves. That is the ultimate conclusion of the banishment of institutions and government.

Pipolinne
12-01-06, 14:47
I've understood you're saying that in other sense,lol :)!I'm glad we sorted this out,or we would be acused of spamming the thread :)!

Kamrusepas
12-01-06, 16:57
Altho you've gone way off-topic, I don't mind, as I found your conversation rather interesting :tmb:

EDIT: Ohh, only 100 posts till I'm a professor :D

Catlantean
12-01-06, 17:27
I've seen the Anarchy sign on a lot of punks, but I don't think it's what Goths would wear. As far as I know, most Goths dress up in leather & metal or frilly and Victorian-esque, and sticking an Anarchy sign on either would look...dunno, weird :p And I'm not sure Goth "philosophy" is anarchistic or that they care about overthrowing the law etc.

Geck-o-Lizard
12-01-06, 18:02
Most of the goths I've met are just interested in having a good time, they don't all even wear black. Most of the ones into crosses and religious symbols seem to be either Wiccan or ignorant. I had this huge metal + cross once (my uncle gave me it) but by dad confiscated it and didn't give me a reason. Because of Pagan (therefore "Satanic") roots I guess. I just liked it because it was shiny and looked cool, but never wore it. :o

Jacob x5
12-01-06, 18:34
Precisely. Being a 'Goth' is neither unique nor different.

I was waiting for someone to say that.

Geck-o-Lizard
12-01-06, 18:43
Being a wannabe goth is cliche. Being a real goth is so rare it's pretty unique.

Neteru
13-01-06, 07:14
I've understood you're saying that in other sense,lol :)!I'm glad we sorted this out,or we would be acused of spamming the thread :)!

The discussion is relevant to the thread, so therefor not off topic. ;)

GoranAgar
13-01-06, 07:40
Goth is dead. Here is proof:

http://www.x5-452.de/world/shop/original/GU003.jpg

:hea:

Neteru
13-01-06, 07:58
Well it's definitely old. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. NEXT!

GoranAgar
13-01-06, 08:04
Well, if you ever bought a t-shirt that says "Goth" you are most certainly not a goth and you have never been one. There is not a lot of things that are more pretentious than that t-shirt. :whi:

NEXT!

Neteru
13-01-06, 08:24
LOL, no, I never did. It's just an English expression.

GoranAgar
13-01-06, 08:32
You scared me for a second.

Neteru
13-01-06, 09:32
Haha! :D I was never a Goth anyway. People just thought I was because I 'looked like one' and mixed with those who were. I used to love the confused look on people's faces when they'd ask me questions like "So what music to you like?" expecting me to say Fields of the Nephilim, Sisters of Mercy or Diamanda Galas or something like that. So I'd say "Oh, ABBA." :D

Kamrusepas
13-01-06, 09:35
"So what music to you like?" expecting me to say Fields of the Nephilim, ...

That's gothic? :eek:

I thought it just sounded..... boring.

GoranAgar
13-01-06, 09:37
That's gothic? :eek:

I thought it just sounded..... boring.
So the answer is yes, in'it? :D

Neteru
13-01-06, 09:54
:vlol: Well I wouldn't argue with that.

Kamrusepas
13-01-06, 10:08
Touché :vlol:

Catlantean
13-01-06, 10:16
A few classic Goth bands (from Goth.net) :
Siouxsie and the Banshees
Bauhaus
Sisters of Mercy
Joy Division
The Cure
Christian Death
Clan of Xymox

So, anyone like any of these? Personally, I think they all sound very 80's :D

Kamrusepas
13-01-06, 10:19
Haven't listened to any of them.

I used to listen to Lacuna Coil tho, and that usually classifies as gothic metal...

Catlantean
13-01-06, 10:26
Lacuna Coil
Not much of a music expert, but don't they sound a bit too peaceful for metal? I like them BTW. Not my favourite band, but they're OK :)

EDIT: Just seen they're listed among the bands on gothmetal.net (you might want to check the site out, it has its own radio which plays very cool songs sometimes :tmb:). So I guess they are Gothic Metal.

EDIT AGAIN: 2800 posts! Yay! :jmp:

GoranAgar
13-01-06, 10:27
A few classic Goth bands (from Goth.net) :
Siouxsie and the Banshees
Bauhaus
Sisters of Mercy
Joy Division
The Cure
Christian Death
Clan of Xymox

So, anyone like any of these? Personally, I think they all sound very 80's :D
Siouxsie and the Banshees and Clan of Xymox I have all the records at home. Some Bauhaus and Joy Division but almost no The Cure, Sisters Of Mercy or Christian Death.

Yes, they are 80s bands. ;) But are the goth? If there ever was a goth music scene they were part of it.

Kamrusepas
13-01-06, 11:31
Not much of a music expert, but don't they sound a bit too peaceful for metal?

Yeah, I think so too.

EDIT: Just seen they're listed among the bands on gothmetal.net (you might want to check the site out, it has its own radio which plays very cool songs sometimes :tmb:).

Not surprising, they call themselves The Gothfathers :D

Anyways, I'm not really into gothic metal anyways. The heavier the better :tmb:

Catlantean
13-01-06, 11:45
Gothfathers :vlol: I bet Goths are rolling those heavily painted eyes at that, everyone knows metal's not Goth :p

It's usually heavy/black/death metal they play rather than Lacuna Coil-ish stuff (and no Joy Division as far as I know). But the radio apparently isn't working right now.

Kamrusepas
13-01-06, 12:16
It's usually heavy/black/death metal they play rather than Lacuna Coil-ish stuff ...

Hm, black metal? Somehow I don't see a connection to Goths there...

lorien elf
14-01-06, 02:02
Hm, interesting discussion has happened since I last posted here. Thanks for the explanation me thinks you gave earlier, Kam. But still, what then are satanists? I guess I can look that up... hehe. I like anarchy stuff, the ideas are actually interesting, especially given what Pipolinne has said about it.
And that list of "goth" bands is interesting. come to think of it, I dont think I like goth music. I didn't like The Cure. No offense, but I couldnt stand the style of music, nor his voice. There are some "heavy" bands that I dismissed 'cause I thought the lead singer's voice sounded too girly for my tastes, or something like that. I do like Lacuna Coil, not a whole, whole lot, as in they aren't me favorite. Cradle of Filth be good too, me thinks. Anyway, this be interesting discussion. I think with today's stereotypes and everything, it's almost humorous to talk about there being any true form of a clique like goths, you know?
But If I comprehend what you all are saying about goths, then it seems like one's Christian views might clash with what goth stuff is all about: depressing themes and morbid poetry and all that, right? there's more hope... and other stuff in Christianity.. meh, oh well.

Kamrusepas
14-01-06, 11:45
There are some "heavy" bands that I dismissed 'cause I thought the lead singer's voice sounded too girly for my tastes, or something like that.

Then it sounds like it wasn't heavy metal... Rather power metal :D

Mona Sax
14-01-06, 15:40
Then it sounds like it wasn't heavy metal... Rather power metal :D
Uh, sorry, but there are good, heavy power metal bands out there. I don't think those two concepts exclude each other. I hate categorizing bands anyway. Somebody (I can't remember who) once said: "There are only two categories in music: good and bad."

Catlantean
14-01-06, 15:44
"There are only two categories in music: good and bad."

Well said :tmb:

Speaking of metal, a while ago I read a (rather funny) article about how you can tell one type from another. Will post it here if I find the time :D

Jacob x5
14-01-06, 15:58
Hm, black metal? Somehow I don't see a connection to Goths there...

You have to be joking! :vlol: It's got the two words that scream 'Goth' the most in it. :D

Catlantean
14-01-06, 16:08
Can't argue about "black", but..."metal" screams Goth? Try going to a Goth forum and telling them you like metal...God how they'll flame you, I bet you'll never come to that forum again (been there, done that :D).

Jacob x5
14-01-06, 16:20
I hate metal myself.

Can't argue about "black", but..."metal" screams Goth? Try going to a Goth forum and telling them you like metal...God how they'll flame you, I bet you'll never come to that forum again (been there, done that :D).

The type of people who can't accept people who aren't like them, huh?

Catlantean
14-01-06, 16:24
Aren't all "types" of people like that? For an example Goths like Goths, Chavs like Chavs, Chavs hate Goths and vice versa.

I proudly remain untyped :D