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GodOfLight
25-04-06, 23:30
hey everyone :wve: a friend PM-ed me this article quite some time ago, and i found it quite interesting. i thought some of you may like it for discussion.

* * *

America Hates Atheists

At least 9 million of them live in the United States, mostly trying to avoid the wrath of neighbors, colleagues and relatives.

But they do not pray for help, for they are America's atheists - the most hated people in the country.

In a new study by University of Minnesota sociologists, more than 2,000 people were asked which of their fellow citizens lacked the proper "vision of American society."

More than blacks or gays or immigrants or lesbians or even Muslims, atheists are viewed as the least American, according to the survey. And those without a god are the last people most folks would want their children to marry.

"Atheists, who account for about 3% of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years," says Penny Edgell, the study's lead researcher.

Most studies combine atheists and agnostics for a total of 12%, meaning some 36 million Americans - more than one in 10 - either don't believe in a god or couldn't care less about the whole subject. A survey of 50,000 adults in 2001 showed that 14% of Americans http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheist4.htm "identify with no religion," nearly doubling from just 8% in 1990.

At this rate, by the year 2030 Christians and other religious people will be a minority and the last American god-worshippers will be buried by 2050 ... just 44 years from today! But for the time being, atheists are weak in number and openly despised.

Atheists don't demand anything, they don't preach or riot, they have no real organization and they are completely unelectable. Nonetheless, Americans don't trust them.

"It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common "core of values http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid28220.aspthat make them trustworthy - and in America, that 'core' has historically been religious," says Edgell.

Not surprisingly, people who haven't had much of a life - the majority of Americans - were the most likely to fear atheists.

But those who live on the coasts, have a decent education and know a wide variety of people were the ones who didn't stay up nights worrying about the godless.

America's atheists are considered so loathsome that no other news outlet could be bothered to report the survey's findings.

It's still "A-OK" to hate an atheist!

* * *

i find it to be quite thought provoking, but i never put much reliance in statistics :p

Jin Uzuki
25-04-06, 23:45
Why am I not surprised? Needless to say, I would despise a person's being atheist, but not the person himself. I do hope the number of atheists not only in America but also around the globe would remain in the minority...or eventually decrease to none.

Geck-o-Lizard
25-04-06, 23:47
Why am I not surprised? Needless to say, I would despise a person's being atheist, but not the person himself. I do hope the number of atheists not only in America but also around the globe would remain in the minority...or eventually decrease to none.

Why?


If you concern yourself to the point of hatred over someone else's choice of beliefs when it doesn't directly affect you then it just stands to reason that you're not confident in your own beliefs in the first place.

GodOfLight
25-04-06, 23:48
Why am I not surprised? Needless to say, I would despise a person's being atheist, but not the person himself. I do hope the number of atheists not only in America but also around the globe would remain in the minority...or eventually decrease to none.

you are not suprised at the dislike for atheists???... how.. charming...?

SMSL
25-04-06, 23:50
America's atheists are considered so loathsome that no other news outlet could be bothered to report the survey's findings.


:vlol:

Mister Mike
25-04-06, 23:52
Heh, well.. American Society generally has a tendency to shove beliefs down ones throat, and condemn those whose lifestyle or beliefs are different from "the norm" (yeah, whatever that is).

I don't like labels, but I'd classify myself as agnostic. I'm not saying I do believe in "God", not saying I don't. It's just not a big deal to me right now. If sometime down the road I have some great revelation, Great! if not, oh well... I'm not losing any sleep over it in the meantime. :)

tazmine
25-04-06, 23:53
I just don't understand why all these religions that are supposed to "love their fellow man" only love him if he believes exactly what they believe.

CerebralAssassin
25-04-06, 23:55
I'm not an atheist,because I recognize the possibility of there being a God,I'm sure as hell not agnostic 'cause I DO care whether God exists or not,so where the hell do I fit in..I personally have the attitude "never say never",I'm analytical,I'm a mathematician,I like to prove things,so until the day I say a proof of the existence or nonexistence of God,I cant' lean either way;)

GodOfLight
25-04-06, 23:56
I just don't understand why all these religions that are supposed to "love their fellow man" only love him if he believes exactly what they believe.

their reasoning is that they love their fellow man but hate their fellow man's actions.

however then they turn around and say that it is our actions that define us... so if they "hate the sin" and that "sin" defines ones, then they still end up hating that person. so we're right back where we started with what you said. well said btw.

GodOfLight
25-04-06, 23:57
I'm not an atheist,because I recognize the possibility of there being a God,I'm sure as hell not agnostic 'cause I DO care whether God exists or not,so where the hell do I fit in..I personally have the attitude "never say never",I'm analytical,I'm a mathematician,I like to prove things,so until the day I say a proof of the existence or nonexistence of God,then I cant' lean either way;)

that would make you an angostic ;) an agnostic (as far as i know) does care, and is also open to belief and disbelief.

SMSL
25-04-06, 23:59
I'm sure as hell not agnostic 'cause I DO care whether God exists or not

I thought agnostics were people that do believe, or at least don't put down the possibility of a god's existence, caring for it or not, but don't follow any known religion. So, I'd say you are agnostic.

CerebralAssassin
26-04-06, 00:02
I thought agnostics were people that do believe, or at least don't put down the possibility of a god's existence, caring for it or not, but don't follow any known religion. So, I'd say you are agnostic.
ok,sorry folks,I thought it was the other way around.I guess then I'm agnostic:)

Mister Mike
26-04-06, 00:02
Agnostic: (noun) A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)

Geck-o-Lizard
26-04-06, 00:02
http://www.answers.com/agnosticism&r=67

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 00:03
Agnostic: (noun) A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)

exactly :tmb: was just about to look for that. has nothing to do with caring or not caring though.

LegenDarY
26-04-06, 00:03
i'm very surprised by this report.. why would anyone dislike an atheist? it's their choice not to believe in god.. just like it's a christians choice to believe in God.. or a muslim to believe in Allah

i think it's logical there are many atheists, cause the whole God-subject is a vague matter, you have to believe in something that you can't see/touch/hear.. so people start questioning if there's really such a thing as a god.. it's not that strange imo

BigR4444
26-04-06, 00:39
(raise hand) East coast atheist right here....

Although someone might classify me as agnostic, i consider myself a bit of an atheist...(if thats possible).......lol
I like to classify myself by saying that if someone came to me, and asked me if there is a GOD, and he knew the correct answer, and if i answered wrong hed kill me, i would say theres NO god.......I dont know if id be wrong or right, but if my life depended on it, id say theres no god.........

Im def a church hater though.....the catholic church and the bible were created by men, ordinary men......and as far as im concerned theyre no more enlightened than i am.....they used to kill people for saying the earth wasnt the center of the universe.......I look at people who start churchgoing later in their life as people who need a crutch......and need help to deal with the real world.......
now im rambling, and i could go on and on so ill stop now, and sorry if I offended anyone, dont try to get in a big debate with me, im willing to go to war over Tomb Raider, but i look at the science/religion battle as an unwinnable arguement that can really get out of hand quickly, plus i do enough of it with my Jewish freind.......

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 01:03
im willing to go to war over Tomb Raider, but i look at the science/religion battle as an unwinnable arguement that can really get out of hand quickly

:vlol: that was pretty funny :p

CerebralAssassin
26-04-06, 01:10
plus i do enough of it with my Jewish freind.......
:vlol:

BigR4444
26-04-06, 01:11
:vlol: that was pretty funny :p

I guess im kinda contradicting myself in that statement.....

Angel666
26-04-06, 01:23
Agnostic here. :wve: I don't condemn my athiest friends although, it does get a bit annoying when they start preaching at me. I just smile and nod my head hoping they don't get themselves killed by the religious extremists around where I live. I just don't feel like I need God in my life right now but if somewhere down the road, I do, then alright. That works too.

DREWY
26-04-06, 01:28
Personal choice isn't it. Can you really hate someone who doesn't share your opinion? Why is it your business what someone believes?

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 01:29
I guess im kinda contradicting myself in that statement.....

no, i liked what you said. :tmb:

even though i personally enjoy arguing about everything.. from the superiority of tomb raider to religious beliefs.. it's all the same in the end anyway :p

SMSL
26-04-06, 01:32
i personally enjoy arguing about everything.. from the superiority of tomb raider

I must introduce you to the extremist hardcore die hard Prince Of Persia fans, one of these days...

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 02:27
I must introduce you to the extremist hardcore die hard Prince Of Persia fans, one of these days...

:p go ahead :D

Draco
26-04-06, 02:29
I don't condemn people who believe differently than I do...they do that well enough on their own. :p

Kamrusepas
26-04-06, 02:31
Why does it sound so familiar? :whi:

And no Stef, I don't mind :p

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 02:32
Why does it sound so familiar? :whi:

And no Stef, I don't mind :p

oh my.. how subtle you are... :whi: :p

SMSL
26-04-06, 02:37
:p go ahead :D

*looks out the window, in search of the suicide bombists dressed like Aladdin and carrying granades around the waist with "Raid this, Lara!" written on them, that have been trying to blow the building up for having a TR fan living inside*

madderakka
26-04-06, 02:37
Is this a joke article because it sounds more like an attack on mid-US christians than atheists

Kamrusepas
26-04-06, 02:38
Afaik, no, it's not a joke. I cannot be sure, though.

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 02:40
Is this a joke article because it sounds more like an attack on mid-US christians than atheists

no, its not a joke article. look at the sources. yes, the article is meant to be humorous, and it obviously is not against atheists, but in favour of them.

*looks out the window, in search of the suicide bombists dressed like Aladdin and carrying granades around the waist with "Raid this, Lara!" written on them, that have been trying to blow the building up for having a TR fan living inside*

:vlol: :vlol: :vlol: i can't think of a fitting answer that wouldnt imply me wearing hot-pants... and article of lcothing i defenetly do not wish to try out.

Capt. Murphy
26-04-06, 03:15
All of my experiences with Atheists have been negative. They always seem to be condescending toward Christians. Like saying we are fools for believing in "a big invisible ghost in the sky".

I'm not too concerned about Atheists for now or in the future. I am aware that Europe is becoming increasingly Secular. Doing away with anything related with God... I can't worry about them either. I won't have to.

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 03:20
They always seem to be condescending toward Christians.


bingo!!! i wonder why exactly? :whi:

Capt. Murphy
26-04-06, 03:43
That was a very good example ^there Godoflight.:)

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 03:45
All of my experiences with Atheists have been negative. They always seem to be condescending toward Christians. Like saying we are fools for believing in "a big invisible ghost in the sky".

I'm not too concerned about Atheists for now or in the future. I am aware that Europe is becoming increasingly Secular. Doing away with anything related with God... I can't worry about them either. I won't have to.

the good example goes to you aswell capt. murphy :)

Capt. Murphy
26-04-06, 03:48
Nya-nya. i m rubR u r gl00 wut bu0nc15 off m3 stix 2 u.:ton:

Sorry. I couldn't help being a bit condescending there. :D

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 03:52
Nya-nya. i m rubR u r gl00 wut bu0nc15 off m3 stix 2 u.:ton:

Sorry. I couldn't help being a bit condescending there. :D

yes, i do love being sticky glue and recieving all the good and bad :D

something wonderful i learnt living in germany:

"Der Klügere gibt nach."

fare thee well my friend :wve:

Capt. Murphy
26-04-06, 03:59
Aber Gott ist die einzige zutreffende Weise. :D

SMSL
26-04-06, 04:06
Cut it out, you 2. We already know you don't make out with each other, there's no need to keep shoving it.

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 04:08
Aber Gott ist die einzige zutreffende Weise. :D

last word should be "weg" if "way" or "path" is what you're trying to say.

Cut it out, you 2. We already know you don't make out with each other, there's no need to keep shoving it.

don't worry SMSL, i doubt capt. murph and i will be making out anytime soon :wve:

stereopathic
26-04-06, 06:18
i am a proud atheist and i regularly suffer through the hatred that this article reports. what is sad about america is that they think atheists are "godless heathens." what they don't realize is that we create our own strict moral guidelines and have a stronger sense of right and wrong than ANY religious person i have ever met. what separates me from my christian friends is only that i am not a hypocrite. they go to church every sunday, preach about what god means to them and then go right out and drink, smoke, and practice premarital sex. in fact, incredibly more crimes are committed in the name of religion than in the name of atheism. atheists generally are more moral and upright people who are far more consious of their values.

gazhammer
26-04-06, 06:22
The way i see it, to believe in God i would also have to believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, Little Green Men etc(i could go on all day).

Gods was introduced back when people were not too bright, but it seems like we havent come too far from there after all.:cln:

By the way, if the DEVIL happens to be real, i'm offering my ETERNAL SOUL for a nice big win on the Lottery?..... hello.......SATAN.........cooooeeeeeeee.:D

SMSL
26-04-06, 06:29
Santa

What, he's not fo' real?...:eek: *goes sit by the corner, crying*

gazhammer
26-04-06, 06:32
What, he's not fo' real?...:eek: *goes sit by the corner, crying*

Sorry dude:( .... of course Santa is real(if he wasnt where did all my pressies come from over the years huh...):D

SMSL
26-04-06, 06:36
dude

Dudette. *wipes tears and tells the little green man beside her that she's alright and he can go now*

JACOBryanBURNS
26-04-06, 06:37
I can't say I agree with Atheism, but I can see how people would.
I'm rather Agnostic myself... I believe firmly in the scientific aspect of things, the literal aspect of life... but for me, I have to wonder, before there were cells and such, what was there? Who made cells? I mean, for me, they couldn't have just procured themselves. I believe there is a spiritual aspect to every physical thing... but also a very scientifical explination for it, also.

Capt. Murphy
26-04-06, 06:37
i am a proud atheist and i regularly suffer through the hatred that this article reports. what is sad about america is that they think atheists are "godless heathens." what they don't realize is that we create our own strict moral guidelines and have a stronger sense of right and wrong than ANY religious person i have ever met. what separates me from my christian friends is only that i am not a hypocrite. they go to church every sunday, preach about what god means to them and then go right out and drink, smoke, and practice premarital sex. in fact, incredibly more crimes are committed in the name of religion than in the name of atheism. atheists generally are more moral and upright people who are far more consious of their values. :eek: :( man... that is bad. I wonder... What denomination are they? Like Baptists, Methodists, Assembly of God....?

gazhammer
26-04-06, 06:38
Dudette. *wipes tears and tells the little green man beside her that she's alright and he can go now*

:vlol:

The DEVIL just turned up....he wouldnt offer me the Lottery win, but he did say i could have 2 scratch cards and a free ticket to Gala Bingo(we are still bargaining though):D

BigR4444
26-04-06, 06:59
The people i really feel bad for are the ones with the more serious religion........growing up we would ask my freind (the jewish one i talked about earlier) to come play football or something and we were confused the first time he said "i can't, im fasting"......we were confused as to why a person would starve themselves, simply because his parents were made to do it by their parents, and them by their parents, and so on.......IF there is a powerful almighty, all knowing God, does he really give a **** if you dont eat something today?????
I feel bad for the orthodox jews in my town that have to walk everywhere in black suits in the dead of August as i drive to the beach with a tanktop on with my windows down and my AC on.........
I feel bad for the middle eastern girls in my high school/college who have to wear hoods all the time......
these people live in America, but they seem to be bound by their traditions, preventing them from enjoying life.........( i realize that sounds ignorant, as i cant know how their feeling, but it still bothers me)
i dont have a big problem with religion, but i do have a problem with the silly traditions that religion brings to the table.......

Emily Cartwright
26-04-06, 07:27
As an atheist with my own strong moral values, I have read through the different texts and listened to the stories. I think that some areas of religious moral structure are a good thing. However, I have found more hypocrites and intollerant individuals in religious circles than atheists.

The one thing in life I can't tolerate is hypocrisy. With religious groups I also find that they tend to pick and choose which parts of their texts are important and which to put aside. This condradicts the entire basis of most major religions. Take Christianity, the seven deadly sins are Greed, Wrath, Sloth, Pride, Lust, Envy and Gluttony. So any Christian who is proud, obese, materialistic, violent in any way etc etc is not a good Christian and has commited the worst of sins. The only one I don't agree with is lust. However, I think that any form of cheating is abhorent. I don't see why I can't lust after my own partner. And the president of the US is a terrible role model. He basically uses his religious beliefs to get elected and then commits several of the above sins. Meh.

Someone mentioned that atheists can sometimes be condescending towards people with faith. Though I don't condone this (each to their own, as long as everyone is a consenting adult and they don't hurt anyone), there is an obvious reason for it. If a person does not believe in any higher power then all they see are a group of grown ups with an imaginary friend.

Also, some of the "silly traditions" are actually written in the texts which are supposed to be the word of God (which ever one it is). So it is the people who do not follow these traditions who are the most hypocritical.

Most of the major religions are based on a id like fear of peoples own mortality. People find it hard to cope with the concept that what they acknowledge as being "me" could cease to exist. This is because we can not know life without ourselves. We are also preprogrammed with a desire to stay alive. The life after death promised by religion appeals to this most basic of animal urges.

A question to any religious types:

If your God is omnpitent, omnipresent and His great plan for humanity is ineffable. Does not the religious text you base this belief on go directly against that belief?

I know it's kind of a rambly post but I had to get up early and help a friend... :D

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 07:57
As an atheist with my own strong moral values, I have read through the different texts and listened to the stories. I think that some areas of religious moral structure are a good thing. However, I have found more hypocrites and intollerant individuals in religious circles than atheists.

The one thing in life I can't tolerate is hypocrisy. With religious groups I also find that they tend to pick and choose which parts of their texts are important and which to put aside. This condradicts the entire basis of most major religions. Take Christianity, the seven deadly sins are Greed, Wrath, Sloth, Pride, Lust, Envy and Gluttony. So any Christian who is proud, obese, materialistic, violent in any way etc etc is not a good Christian and has commited the worst of sins. The only one I don't agree with is lust. However, I think that any form of cheating is abhorent. I don't see why I can't lust after my own partner. And the president of the US is a terrible role model. He basically uses his religious beliefs to get elected and then commits several of the above sins. Meh.

Someone mentioned that atheists can sometimes be condescending towards people with faith. Though I don't condone this (each to their own, as long as everyone is a consenting adult and they don't hurt anyone), there is an obvious reason for it. If a person does not believe in any higher power then all they see are a group of grown ups with an imaginary friend.

Also, some of the "silly traditions" are actually written in the texts which are supposed to be the word of God (which ever one it is). So it is the people who do not follow these traditions who are the most hypocritical.

Most of the major religions are based on a id like fear of peoples own mortality. People find it hard to cope with the concept that what they acknowledge as being "me" could cease to exist. This is because we can not know life without ourselves. We are also preprogrammed with a desire to stay alive. The life after death promised by religion appeals to this most basic of animal urges.

A question to any religious types:

If your God is omnpitent, omnipresent and His great plan for humanity is ineffable. Does not the religious text you base this belief on go directly against that belief?

I know it's kind of a rambly post but I had to get up early and help a friend... :D

nice post :wve: i agree with many things that you have said :tmb:

however, always remember that we are all hypocrites to a certain extent :p

Emily Cartwright
26-04-06, 08:03
nice post :wve: i agree with many things that you have said :tmb:

however, always remember that we are all hypocrites to a certain extent :p

I am pathalogical about it. I don't think I could cope at all if I ever found myself being a hypocrite.

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 08:17
I am pathalogical about it. I don't think I could cope at all if I ever found myself being a hypocrite.

then kill yourself right now. cause everyone has just a little bit of it in them :p be careful! you saying you are not one is you being one :p careful careful

dont worry, once you accept how we are all flawed with what we dislike your mind will open up to a whole new world ;)

Emily Cartwright
26-04-06, 08:27
then kill yourself right now. cause everyone has just a little bit of it in them :p be careful! you saying you are not one is you being one :p careful careful

dont worry, once you accept how we are all flawed with what we dislike your mind will open up to a whole new world ;)

Nope... I honestly can't think of a single hypocritical thing I have done. I say what I believe and I do what I believe. I have my own morals and I stick to them, I only promote things I myself partake in... etc. etc.

I have a mood disorder and when I say I'm pathalogical, I mean it... :ton:

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 09:01
Nope... I honestly can't think of a single hypocritical thing I have done. I say what I believe and I do what I believe. I have my own morals and I stick to them, I only promote things I myself partake in... etc. etc.

I have a mood disorder and when I say I'm pathalogical, I mean it... :ton:

:whi: you'll be laughing someday...

nobody is that perfect my dear ;) otheriwse life would be boring

Forwen
26-04-06, 09:18
"It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common "core of values http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid28220.aspthat make them trustworthy - and in America, that 'core' has historically been religious," says Edgell.


ALL humans born and bred in western culture share a christian core of values. And a handful of ancient Greek mentality and aesthetics to boot. Role of religion in civilisation really isn't limited to rituals - unless an average middle-American strongly believes a fundamental value of western mentality is to go to a church each Sunday, then fine.

Emily Cartwright
26-04-06, 09:21
:whi: you'll be laughing someday...

nobody is that perfect my dear ;) otheriwse life would be boring

I'm not perfect... I just have that one thing... And too some it makes me less than perfect.

Also, it depends on who's looking at me. I have morals that I stick to, but they are my morals. Other people might view me as immoral. You don't know what I get up to on weekends... :ton:

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 09:22
ALL humans born and bred in western culture share a christian core of values. And a handful of ancient Greek mentality and aesthetics to boot. Role of religion in civilisation really isn't limited to rituals - unless an average middle-American strongly believes a fundamental value of western mentality is to go to a church each Sunday, then fine.

you are very correct. all of us born and raised in western civilization are influenced from birth by christian and other western beliefs. no matter how much we try to seperate ourselves from them, they will always be a part of our psyche one way or another.

GodOfLight
26-04-06, 09:23
You don't know what I get up to on weekends... :ton:

well at least there's something exciting going on :jmp: :ton:

*

my point once again emily simply is that what we tend to dislike in others the most is usually our own reflection staring back at us.
youre intense dislike for hypocrisy is commpletly understandable, but ask yourself where this comes from. is it only from bad experiences with other people, or is there maybe more to yourself concerning this then you think? just an issue worth pondering... for anyone as a matt of fact.

Terrorscream
26-04-06, 13:50
That is by far the most stupid thing I have EVER read.

I am british and things might be a little different over here, but I can honestly say I am a Atheist, and proud, purely for the fact I feel I don't need to have belief in someone who doesn't exsist, when all I know is to belieave in myself.

Don't get me wrong, I do not speech the word about Atheists, but why should not belieaving in something be a reason to hate one another?

If anything, I HATE those who preach about God on the corners around London.
But thats just my 2 pence.

Muhammad
26-04-06, 14:10
Why?


If you concern yourself to the point of hatred over someone else's choice of beliefs when it doesn't directly affect you then it just stands to reason that you're not confident in your own beliefs in the first place.

Athiests do tend to hate Christians and Christanity. Islam is, of course, out of the question.

Emily Cartwright
26-04-06, 14:19
I've known atheists to patronise people with strong religious convictions but I don't know any that hate them... Maybe some on a personal level, like my Dad hates the Catholic church.

As an atheist I don't hate anyone for their beliefs. And to me there is not a huge ammount of difference between Christianity and Islam in the way that they impact on my life, they both have similar moral structures.

Though having said that, I do find hardcore creationists pretty scary.

If I had to pick a favourite religion it would be Hinduism. :D

Greenkey2
26-04-06, 14:31
A good, rambly discussion you started here, Stefan :D :tmb:


A dear friend of mine is a Jehovah's Witness, and one of the main reasons we get on so well is she DOES NOT sit and preach her way through life (hers or mine). Although I consider myself to be a very spiritual person with a strong faith, I do not follow any organised religion. Why? It just seems to get in the way for me :) Others can use it to get closer to God, but I must just be one of those one-to-one people :p



BTW, I seem to remember the census a few years ago found more Jedi than Agnostics living in Britain :whi: :cln:

gazhammer
26-04-06, 14:38
My cousin who's real name is Troy Edkins, is a born again Christian who has changed his name to Brother Francis, is now a monk and living in a Friary!.

He knows my feelings towards the Church, but we are best of mates and are both big Hammers fans, he doesnt preach his beliefs to me and vice-versa.

He comes to visit me when he can and i love walking around town with him, as he is 6'8" and dressed in his Monk's garb!.:eek: :D

Emily Cartwright
26-04-06, 14:39
But as a Jehovah's Witness isn't she supposed to "make disciples of people of all the nations," ?

And putting Jedi on the census is a communal way of saying "Non of the government's darn business." Though some did it because they think it's funny. :D

Forwen
26-04-06, 14:41
BTW, I seem to remember the census a few years ago found more Jedi than Agnostics living in Britain :whi: :cln:

I always wanted to be a Jedi! Gotta hurry to England.

TrojanMan
26-04-06, 14:58
I haven't read a single post in this topic yet, but I can see it is just a religious war waiting to happen.

Kamrusepas
26-04-06, 15:02
I always wanted to be a Jedi! Gotta hurry to England.

My friend is planning to start a religion based on The Force, but for some reason the followers have to worship her too. Shall I sign you up? :D

Paperdoll
26-04-06, 15:09
My friend is planning to start a religion based on The Force, but for some reason the followers have to worship her too. Shall I sign you up? :D

:vlol: the Force shall be strong!!! :vlol:

Greenkey2
26-04-06, 15:12
My friend is planning to start a religion based on The Force, but for some reason the followers have to worship her too. Shall I sign you up? :D

She's not small and green with a speech impediment by any chance? :whi:


Suscribe to this, I will.

Kamrusepas
26-04-06, 15:14
She's not small and green with a speech impediment by any chance? :whi:


No :vlol:

JamesFKirk
26-04-06, 15:23
Scary. I remember one sentence that was once used to "justify" mass murder: "I love their people, but I hate their government. So I hurt the government on what it needs the most - the people."
I do not think that I am an atheist or agnosthic, I just say who are we to know the name of God or Goddess or what is there above. Or is it even above? There are ten dimensions of the space, only three of them consciously accessible and only four of them being realised by us. I say, if there's/re a God/dess/s/es (and I hope there is/are) their existence is so far from the possibilities of our concepcions of reality that we shouldn't try to understand them in the first place. There are better things to do. And easier - like the worldwide peace and hyperdrive. (Both of them really necessary if the humanity is to survive.)

GodOfLight
27-04-06, 01:02
A good, rambly discussion you started here, Stefan :D :tmb:

you can always count on me to ruffle feathers when i havent been getting enough sleep :p


A dear friend of mine is a Jehovah's Witness, and one of the main reasons we get on so well is she DOES NOT sit and preach her way through life (hers or mine). Although I consider myself to be a very spiritual person with a strong faith, I do not follow any organised religion. Why? It just seems to get in the way for me :) Others can use it to get closer to God, but I must just be one of those one-to-one people :p


i agree with that completly. i would also consider myself very spiritual. in fact, my sprituality makes up a very large part of my life. however i have always felt that each individual has to find his/her own way to divinity, and that a lot of the organized religions tend to either be blockages to that, or keep people from discovering it for themselves. for some people that works, but i still think that there is nothing more gratifying then discovering the divine and one's own spirituality for oneself, rather then having some one else show you their way.


BTW, I seem to remember the census a few years ago found more Jedi than Agnostics living in Britain :whi: :cln:

correct me if i'm wrong (not such a star wars fan) but isnt the jedi philosophy based on buddhism?

Jin Uzuki
27-04-06, 02:55
Originally Posted by Geck-o-Lizard
Originally Posted by Jin Uzuki
Why am I not surprised? Needless to say, I would despise a person's being atheist, but not the person himself. I do hope the number of atheists not only in America but also around the globe would remain in the minority...or eventually decrease to none.

Why?


If you concern yourself to the point of hatred over someone else's choice of beliefs when it doesn't directly affect you then it just stands to reason that you're not confident in your own beliefs in the first place.
I stand firmly by my belief, Gecko. People are different. There may be some who find confidence in their belief in discretion while there are also others who are quite active in showing their devotion. Showing one's devotion doesn't entail despising other contrasting beliefs, and that is how I live by my devotion.

My slight despise for the swelling norm that does not care about my religion - my God - is a wholly separate thing, and shouldn't be, in any way, related to my religion. My faith need not showcase loathing for others' religions for it is within me that my faith resides, and it does not yearn to vanquish nor despise. As I've said, my dislike towards atheism (not atheists) is a wholly different matter. It should not be categorized under a showcase of faith but under a showcase of social norm. :wve: Please do respect that. :)

Jin Uzuki
27-04-06, 02:59
I wish not to embed my beliefs within those who do not have the same faith as I do, but please do not question mine. By all means, go on with your belief, and I'll go on with mine. Walk on your path...I'm walking on mine.

SMSL
27-04-06, 03:18
Walk on your path...I'm walking on mine.

And I have a 2 seat diesel 4 weeler, if anyone needs a ride. :D

Jin Uzuki
27-04-06, 04:03
And I have a 2 seat diesel 4 weeler, if anyone needs a ride. :D
Just what I needed! :tmb: LoL, SM, you're always there to cool down things that are on the verge of heating up. Some threads in the forum need your cracking of comic nutshells. ;)

SMSL
27-04-06, 05:07
cool down things that are on the verge of heating up.

That's the most charming perspective to my thread hijacking I've ever read! :hug: But, trust me, if more threads would have it, mods would have to hunt me down and force me a vow of no more spamming as an alternative to a ban. Speaking of which, easy, Neteru, I'll be good now. *runs away from the thread as if chased by 3 feet long mutant tarantulas*

Jin Uzuki
27-04-06, 05:19
Thread hi-jacking, he calls it. :D But seriously, threads, once graced with your presence, seem to float with a breeze of chill. :tmb: :wve:

SMSL
27-04-06, 05:50
he

*while still running as chased by 3 feet long mutant tarantulas*

... Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

GodOfLight
27-04-06, 06:29
*while still running as chased by 3 feet long mutant tarantulas*

... Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

i'll chase you back in the forklift :ton: :D

Mona Sax
27-04-06, 07:57
Okayyy... back on topic... :whi:

Atheism is a belief, equivalent to all the others. So I really don't see why it shouldn't be respected like any religion.

LiquidKal
27-04-06, 09:22
I am surprised at this report... I find it sickening that people can hate someone because they don't believe in a god.

I'm agnostic. Don't believe in any of the religions, but don't deny that some kind of higher power exists, whether its god in the traditional sense, or the force, or whatever, I think there must be something. But I also think that short of this higher power revealing itself to us directly, its probably impossible to learn the truth about it. I also don't believe in an afterlife and spiritual stuff like that. I think of the Human body like a complex biological computer. When it stops functioning, thats it. But I do think something probably engineered us this way, somehow. Otherwise too much is left to chance.

But I think this whole argument of religion versus science and all that crap is stupid. I see Humans as a flawed species, nobody is perfect, and in fact we're all pretty stupid. Myself included, im certainly no exception. Therefor we will always argue over things like this. Like someone else said in this thread, everyone is a hipocrite to a certain extent, all we can do is try and control how much of one we are.

I have no problem with anyone else believing what they want to believe, because part of my own morals is to be accepting of other people. The only people I don't accept are those who don't accept other people beliefs, such as someone who hates an atheist just for their lack of belief in what they believe in. That probably makes me a hypocrite, but so be it, I'm just as flawed as everyone else.

scoopy_loopy
27-04-06, 09:46
phewph! Who really cares bout these things! I mean, not letting your childerent marry them? So what if they say they dont think theres a god? I say it all the time!


God bless america I suppose. lol.

Catlantean
27-04-06, 12:00
I don't hate anyone for what they believe, but I guess it's the human nature which thrives on hate. Hating the different makes the same come together. There's no preventing this, and there's no absolute tolerance. Tolerate the intolerant, and there's still intolerance in the system. Don't tolerate them, and YOU are intolerance in the system.

GodOfLight
27-04-06, 12:41
I don't hate anyone for what they believe, but I guess it's the human nature which thrives on hate. Hating the different makes the same come together. There's no preventing this, and there's no absolute tolerance. Tolerate the intolerant, and there's still intolerance in the system. Don't tolerate them, and YOU are intolerance in the system.

wow catlantean :jmp: now that was said perfectly ;) :tmb:

it makes me think of a little something, which seems far-fetched but actually isn't:

there can be no order without chaos, and no chaos without order.

GeckoKid
27-04-06, 12:47
fine i will shut up.

tr_mitch
27-04-06, 21:36
I'm from the UK and i don't belong to any religion, i feel i am Atheist as in my opinion.... religion is the cause of all war, and it should be something which is meant to make the world a better place rather than people killing other people and terrorist because there 'religion' says its ok.

Emily Cartwright
28-04-06, 08:56
Terrorist do what they do for socio-political reasons. None of them are members of the religions they claim to be because all major religious texted condemn the taking of life. You can always find some hypocritical passages in the texts but the five pillars of Islam and the ten comandments both embody the same humanist principles.

gazhammer
28-04-06, 09:03
Terrorist do what they do for socio-political reasons. None of them are members of the religions they claim to be because all major religious texted condemn the taking of life. You can always find some hypocritical passages in the texts but the five pillars of Islam and the ten comandments both embody the same humanist principles.

Hey Emily:wve:, sleep well?.

Emily Cartwright
28-04-06, 10:17
Not too bad thanks! :D

Forwen
28-04-06, 12:05
Terrorist do what they do for socio-political reasons. None of them are members of the religions they claim to be because all major religious texted condemn the taking of life. You can always find some hypocritical passages in the texts but the five pillars of Islam and the ten comandments both embody the same humanist principles.

Untrue, if we're talking about private soldiers. Islamic terrorism is a shining example of radical fanatism, which is MUCH easier to develop than socio-political awareness. Especially in a society driven mostly by religion. Let's not assume that our civilisation of BBC, journalism, cafés and decadency is universal :p

And as I stated sometime ago. Respect for all humans, combined with tolerance for variety, is possible only when the general sense of security is high - otherwise it will only limit to those belonging to your own group of believes/interests, society etc. Whatever differs you from the oppressor can become a rallying point. A good example would be rising anti-Muslim sentiments in a fat rich Holland after death of Theo Van Gogh, killed by a fanatic Muslim (and not for socio-political reasons...).

BlackGrey
28-04-06, 12:29
Correct me if i'm wrong (not such a star wars fan) but isnt the jedi philosophy based on buddhism?

Yes it is :p

Emily Cartwright
28-04-06, 12:48
Untrue, if we're talking about private soldiers. Islamic terrorism is a shining example of radical fanatism, which is MUCH easier to develop than socio-political awareness. Especially in a society driven mostly by religion. Let's not assume that our civilisation of BBC, journalism, cafés and decadency is universal :p

And as I stated sometime ago. Respect for all humans, combined with tolerance for variety, is possible only when the general sense of security is high - otherwise it will only limit to those belonging to your own group of believes/interests, society etc. Whatever differs you from the oppressor can become a rallying point. A good example would be rising anti-Muslim sentiments in a fat rich Holland after death of Theo Van Gogh, killed by a fanatic Muslim (and not for socio-political reasons...).

I think you'll find that radical religious beliefs are often as excuse for violence. A way of people justifying to themselves the actions that they take. This is NOT the reason for the actions, just the excuse.

If you look at the western world's foreign policies towards Islamic nations you will be appalled. Not all of it turns up on news or is buried as fast as it arises. It goes back as far as the crusades and it carries on today. I do not agree with a lot of the policies of Islamic nations but it is very very difficult to enter into discussions with people when you are an aggressor. Take Israel, it was created in 1948, after UN Resolution 181 partitioned the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine into two states for Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs objected to the creation of the Jewish state and fought a war against it. The Arab side lost the war, and the Palestinian state never really came into being. The territory allotted to the Palestinian state by the UN partition resolution was taken over by Israel and Jordan. About 780,000 Palestinians became refugees.

This is just one example of an Islamic nation being thrown in to social and economic collapse due to the Western worlds foreign policies towatds them. If it was just one country then it wouldn't be so much of an issue. However, we have failed to help, invaded and attacked most Islamic countries over the years. And this gives rise to a hatred of the Western world. It also gives people an excuse to use their religion to justify violent actions.

They are NOT muslims though. A true muslim would not commit these acts.

Forwen
28-04-06, 14:17
I think you'll find that radical religious beliefs are often as excuse for violence. A way of people justifying to themselves the actions that they take. This is NOT the reason for the actions, just the excuse.

I'm afraid radicalism IS honest. You underestimate the importance of a cohesive belief and custom system as a frame for the order of a larger group - like an army, sect or a nation in the end - which replaces the immediate, mundane commonwealth. In such a system only a few can be accused of machiavelism and realising the potential of a belief as an instrument of propaganda. An excuse, as you call it. Its lesser members are NOT allowed to question the rules of a group. The problem about this discussion is that we use modern, western naming and criteria for mind processes that are a minority in our modern, western world. In times of christian crusades as well as in Islamic radicalism the so called "objectivity" - as being able to judge your own, and your enemy's, business without involving the will of God or any other higher reason - was/is mostly non-existent. This is the extravagance of the Enlightenment. Similarly, even if religious texts state the respect for another human as a principle, this principle will never become one in the society (thus, on a larger scale) as long as there are no conditions for it. Groups struggling to survive can't afford a respect for a potential threat. That's why only rich, safe civilisations - as Roman Empire and Western World - stressed or stress the rights of the individual. But terrorists just don't need a modern excuse when there's no principle they break.

And yes, a religion is THE ultimate goal and reason of an Islamic fanatic - which is important in this discussion, considering the scale of the problem of terrorism. It is a tool of terrorist leaders, but a true code of life to their soldiers.

If you look at the western world's foreign policies towards Islamic nations you will be appalled. Not all of it turns up on news or is buried as fast as it arises. It goes back as far as the crusades and it carries on today. I do not agree with a lot of the policies of Islamic nations but it is very very difficult to enter into discussions with people when you are an aggressor. Take Israel, it was created in 1948, after UN Resolution 181 partitioned the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine into two states for Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs objected to the creation of the Jewish state and fought a war against it. The Arab side lost the war, and the Palestinian state never really came into being. The territory allotted to the Palestinian state by the UN partition resolution was taken over by Israel and Jordan. About 780,000 Palestinians became refugees.

This is just one example of an Islamic nation being thrown in to social and economic collapse due to the Western worlds foreign policies towatds them. If it was just one country then it wouldn't be so much of an issue. However, we have failed to help, invaded and attacked most Islamic countries over the years. And this gives rise to a hatred of the Western world. It also gives people an excuse to use their religion to justify violent actions.

Exactly what I said before about a rallying point. Of course we'll try to protect the thing that seems most endangered. In this case, religion and the social order stemming from it. Which in turn serves as a basis for military potential of the country.

Of course, I do believe wholeheartedly that the structure of belief and custom is originally and only a reflection of environment conditions the specific population has to adapt to. But another important trait is that its members never realise it, nor are allowed to by their leaders.

They are NOT muslims though. A true muslim would not commit these acts.

Who decides who's a true Muslim and who isn't? Us or them? Oh come on. There's no such thing as ultimate interpretation. Those who win make it ;)

I think you've made here a great example on the difference between Western and radical Islamic consciousness. The former will notice and support (and call true) those traits of Islam that stress the respect for another human, since this is one of the main principles of the fat, calm West. The latter sees Jihad as the primal and true way of Islam - because it stirs the will to fight in the Islamic community (or at least is supposed to), which as we all know is much more in danger of being "raided morally" by the West. War of the worlds, so to say.

I hope my point is clear - the religion is a perfect instrument of survival and unity, which is discarded when the sense of general security rises (like in a considerable part of the West), but brought up otherwise. Human rights are a luxury just like water and compulsory education.

And please, don't rush with the answer. I stll haven't played HL2 today :p

Emily Cartwright
28-04-06, 14:56
I'm afraid radicalism IS honest. You underestimate the importance of a cohesive belief and custom system as a frame for the order of a larger group - like an army, sect or a nation in the end - which replaces the immediate, mundane commonwealth. In such a system only a few can be accused of machiavelism and realising the potential of a belief as an instrument of propaganda. An excuse, as you call it. Its lesser members are NOT allowed to question the rules of a group. The problem about this discussion is that we use modern, western naming and criteria for mind processes that are a minority in our modern, western world. In times of christian crusades as well as in Islamic radicalism the so called "objectivity" - as being able to judge your own, and your enemy's, business without involving the will of God or any other higher reason - was/is mostly non-existent. This is the extravagance of the Enlightenment. Similarly, even if religious texts state the respect for another human as a principle, this principle will never become one in the society (thus, on a larger scale) as long as there are no conditions for it. Groups struggling to survive can't afford a respect for a potential threat. That's why only rich, safe civilisations - as Roman Empire and Western World - stressed or stress the rights of the individual. But terrorists just don't need a modern excuse when there's no principle they break.

And yes, a religion is THE ultimate goal and reason of an Islamic fanatic - which is important in this discussion, considering the scale of the problem of terrorism. It is a tool of terrorist leaders, but a true code of life to their soldiers.



Exactly what I said before about a rallying point. Of course we'll try to protect the thing that seems most endangered. In this case, religion and the social order stemming from it. Which in turn serves as a basis for military potential of the country.

Of course, I do believe wholeheartedly that the structure of belief and custom is originally and only a reflection of environment conditions the specific population has to adapt to. But another important trait is that its members never realise it, nor are allowed to by their leaders.



Who decides who's a true Muslim and who isn't? Us or them? Oh come on. There's no such thing as ultimate interpretation. Those who win make it ;)

I think you've made here a great example on the difference between Western and radical Islamic consciousness. The former will notice and support (and call true) those traits of Islam that stress the respect for another human, since this is one of the main principles of the fat, calm West. The latter sees Jihad as the primal and true way of Islam - because it stirs the will to fight in the Islamic community (or at least is supposed to), which as we all know is much more in danger of being "raided morally" by the West. War of the worlds, so to say.

I hope my point is clear - the religion is a perfect instrument of survival and unity, which is discarded when the sense of general security rises (like in a considerable part of the West), but brought up otherwise. Human rights are a luxury just like water and compulsory education.

And please, don't rush with the answer. I stll haven't played HL2 today :p

I shall be brief.... :jmp:

I am arguing cause versus excuse. If you remove the cause you eliminate the effect, if you remove the excuse the effect remains.

If you take the abuse of Islamic nations out of the equation then it is more likely that there would be no extreme acts of terrorism. If you took Islam out of the equation the abuses would still be there along with the poverty and death which causes the hatred.

You can argue that there are parts of Islam that teach people to fight until the opponent acknowledges that there is no other god but Allah in the same way that the Bible has passages that seem to condone violence. It doesn't mean that the majority of those religions agree with these things. The difference being that it's a very long time since Christians have been persecuted.

gazhammer
28-04-06, 14:59
Hey Emily, name a few subjects you would like a argu....., sorry debate about?, and i'll see if i know enough about any of them, and attempt to take you on!.:D

By the way, politics is a no go.:confused:

Emily Cartwright
28-04-06, 15:11
Well there are only three areas worth debating in my eyes... Politics, religion and philosophy.

The problem with not debating politics is that it excludes every single social issue pretty much.

Lara Croft Fan Joe
28-04-06, 15:16
I dont really like atheists, they rely too much on science, and I think thats wrong

Emily Cartwright
28-04-06, 15:46
Could you elaborate on that?

Chocobo155
28-04-06, 16:05
Lol, to hell with religion, who cares if someones an athiest?! God, in fact I don't know a single christian personally, and none of my friends are bad people. Anyway, religion's behind just about every terrorist attack there's ever been!

GeckoKid
28-04-06, 16:20
well i am wrong, i can't shut up

the point of being an atheist (at least me) is that i don't care, i don't care what christians think of me, i don't really care about politics (but that's apolitical), i don't care about my next generation as i won't have any kids, i don't mind people going to church/temples/pyramids to worship, i simply don't care. i live my own life without thinking about religions, i worry about other things, i care about my friends without the help of anyone up above/down below, i hang out with my friends without thinking what someone else will judge, i don't care about science either. i don't need religions to make me feel guilty for doing most things, i have my own self discipine.

not that i give up on christians, they gave up on me anyway, looking back at the chinese history for example, they introduced homophobia/the term sodomy to chinese people. and i have a homophobic christian flatmate living under my room.

really, i should shut up now.

Forwen
28-04-06, 16:27
Well there are only three areas worth debating in my eyes... Politics, religion and philosophy.

Bajesus... exactly those three subjects humanity will never come to a conclusion about. Especially that philosophy is a pain in the a**. It allows to negate each and every criterium that doesn't serve the point of view of the speaker. Philosophers are leeches :p You must have much spare time and nerves of steel, Emily :D

Btw sheesh. I've used the word "commonwealth" wrongly AGAIN. I meant prosperity of course.

Reggie
28-04-06, 16:31
I haven't read through the thread cause it's gotten pretty long so forgive me for not referring back to any of you.

I personally totally accept what Atheists beliefs or lack of, my Science teacher is an Atheist - I discovered this last christmas, I talked to her about it, as I like to find out about what people believe and it does actually make sense, the scientific view seems more likely and more enlightened than anything I've heard, the problem, is that although spirituality is becoming rarer these days, Atheism still remains as a minority - particularly in America, I think it's more widely accepted in this country but mostly everyone I know are agnostics like myself. This is the general experience I've gotten from Atheists in the past.

AnthonyShock1515
28-04-06, 16:49
Let me just say this

The human race have been fooled.

TombH4x
28-04-06, 17:45
I've seen this article at a few other web sites and it just makes me shake my head.

Over the last few months I've been looking at Atheism and religion quite a lot. What got me started was the debate over whether or not ID should be taught in U.S. Schools. Well, that led me to other web sites where I found some good information and some very smart people.

Personally, I'd say I'm an Agnostic leaning towards outright Atheism, at the moment.

Anywho, I wanted to share some links with anyone who's interested.

I don't think there should be any reason for this to be frowned upon, but if I'm wrong, a mod can feel free to remove the links.

This first link gives a very good description of Atheism. This is only one article on the site but there is more good information throughout.

http://www.jovialatheist.com/atheismisnotwhatyouthinkitis.html

Here is an Atheist message board, a big one. You'll find some very interesting
discussion and debate on all things related to religion and Atheism.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php

Forwen
28-04-06, 18:33
http://www.jovialatheist.com/atheismisnotwhatyouthinkitis.html


Is this article a joke? It uses exactly the same rhetoric and vocabulary which their "retarded" opponents are accused of. "Truth", "harmful lies", "good acceptable morality", "spiritual growth" hold little to no information but evoke much emotion - the process of manipulation the author/s of this text claim to condemn. I guess each trend needs some demagogy eh? And there's the good vs evil. And bad, greedy oppressors of humanity with overhelming power! Orwell alert!

Atheism means there's no metaphysical power. A-no theos-gods, translating it primitively. All that remains is empiricism, and what is worth mentioning, it is undergoing a serious crisis lately - partly because of 18th century empiric idealists, claiming the science is the answer to all problems of mankind. Well it's not. Postmodernism anyone?

TombH4x
28-04-06, 19:57
Forwen, I'd initially read that article a couple of months ago and at that time, it worked for me. I've learned much since then and after re-reading it, I can't say I disagree with you in regards to some of your points in your first paragraph. It definitely reads as preachy, to say the least. Seems like I was a bit hasty in posting up that link.

I wonder if you could clarify a point for me though. You said I guess each trend needs some demagogy eh? Is this meant to imply that you think Atheism is a trend?
Personally, I've seen little evidence to make me think it is anything but honest folks who see no evidence in any divine beings. A lot of whom have given their position much time, research, consideration, deep thought and reflection, before coming to any kind of decision as to the existence of God(s).
I'll add here that I am by no means inclined to get into any kind of debate. I don't want to wholly derail this thread for one thing. Also, my knowledge is very much in it's infancy in regards to Atheism and I still wish to read the Bible all the way through.
I am however curious and always looking for new information. That being said, Could you also elaborate on what you mean when you say -snip- All that remains is empiricism, and what is worth mentioning, it is undergoing a serious crisis lately -snip-.
Do you think that people are returning to a more spiritual ordering? I look forward to your input.

Belfastard
28-04-06, 20:14
I am sick of this *****ing. Who cares? No one is right or wrong. We have to agree to disagree. Let this thread die.

Please type all words normally and allow the censorship software to take care of any words that require censoring. Thanks.

GodOfLight
28-04-06, 23:34
I dont really like atheists, they rely too much on science, and I think thats wrong

wow, now that is a judgemental and ignorant response. like emily said: elaboration would be best.

how do you know what is right, and how do you know what is wrong? ;)

CerebralAssassin
28-04-06, 23:37
I dont really like atheists, they rely too much on science, and I think thats wrong
what,you're saying science is wrong?or atheists?

Geck-o-Lizard
28-04-06, 23:42
wow, now that is a judgemental and ignorant response. like emily said: elaboration would be best.

how do you know what is right, and how do you know what is wrong? ;)

Note that he said "I think that's wrong" not "that's wrong". There's no definite answer to right and wrong, only some morals that many of us share and agree that "this is good, do this" or "this is bad, don't do it". The concepts of "right" and "wrong" are entirely relative to your perspective. :)

GodOfLight
28-04-06, 23:45
Note that he said "I think that's wrong" not "that's wrong". There's no definite answer to right and wrong, only some morals that many of us share and agree that "this is good, do this" or "this is bad, don't do it". The concepts of "right" and "wrong" are entirely relative to your perspective. :)

of course, which is why i'm asking him to elaborate.

Forwen
29-04-06, 02:00
Is this meant to imply that you think Atheism is a trend?


Atheism in the history of thought, as a set of values and beliefs, is a trend as much as any other belief system. It's not ultimately right or wrong - these criteria are false at their core, and using them in this discussion is a huge misunderstanding. I actually find it quite amusing - and sad at the same time - to watch humanity in its eternal chase for the "truth" and "final solution" :)

Me? I assume that it's not worth wasting my time, thought and life on a potential metaphysical being (The Force? :D) that doesn't influence me in any way - and if it does (but it doesn't), then it hasn't bothered to make this clear to me. I may call myself an atheist, although I prefer to call it expanded egoism with a bit of conformity. Live your immediate life and let others do so :)

Personally, I've seen little evidence to make me think it is anything but honest folks who see no evidence in any divine beings. A lot of whom have given their position much time, research, consideration, deep thought and reflection, before coming to any kind of decision as to the existence of God(s).

Oh believe me, it is perfectly possible for a believer to take into consideration the same facts an atheist takes and still find his/her religion true. The attitude of an individual is determined by too many factors - upbringing, personality, environment, subconsious or semiconscious desires and hopes - to hope that a few mere verbal arguments will always convince him/her. Just like Geck-o-Lizard and many others before her said.

Do you think that people are returning to a more spiritual ordering?

This is a huge topic, and I am not going to claim I have much - or any - knowledge about it. You may want to investigate the influence of Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty on the philosophy, as well as discovery of quantum mechanics as a whole. As for more general consciousness, as well as literature and art, it means that after the era of modernism many people are disappointed with those systems of thought that stem from the science. Science itself and consequences of its development were supposed to give ground for a perfect social order (or at least change it completely - sci-fi with its anti-/utopias anyone?), eliminate stupidity and such. But they didn't. It is a predictable process of how the following periods are oriented - toward human and science (antiquity, Rennaissance, Enlightenment) or toward the religion and spirit (Middle Ages, baroque, romanticism). Notice how they are positioned on the timeline. Ugh, this curve had a name and I just don't remember it :hea: Modernism and science were in 20th century - now it's time for something more spiritual, duh.

Of course there's also this theory on how atheism, as a belief strongly attached to secularity and liberalism is doomed to die - simply because liberal individual and societies with their "grab the life" principle have too few children to pass on their beliefs :)

TombH4x
29-04-06, 05:39
Atheism in the history of thought, as a set of values and beliefs, is a trend as much as any other belief system. It's not ultimately right or wrong - these criteria are false at their core, and using them in this discussion is a huge misunderstanding. I actually find it quite amusing - and sad at the same time - to watch humanity in its eternal chase for the "truth" and "final solution" :)

Thanks for explaining your statement, this makes sense to me.

Me? I assume that it's not worth wasting my time, thought and life on a potential metaphysical being (The Force? :D) that doesn't influence me in any way - and if it does (but it doesn't), then it hasn't bothered to make this clear to me. I may call myself an atheist, although I prefer to call it expanded egoism with a bit of conformity. Live your immediate life and let others do so :)

I like your philosophy here. Your live and let live attitude towards others reflects my own attitudes.

As for me, I am want to continue looking for an "ultimate truth". I know it's something the human race will most likely never find, certainly not in my lifetime, but the search I'm finding, is fasinating. Also, if my search leads me to decide I don't belive in God it makes facing my ultimate demise a bit easier. Hell sounds like a really bad place after all. :D

Oh believe me, it is perfectly possible for a believer to take into consideration the same facts an atheist takes and still find his/her religion true. The attitude of an individual is determined by too many factors - upbringing, personality, environment, subconsious or semiconscious desires and hopes - to hope that a few mere verbal arguments will always convince him/her. Just like Geck-o-Lizard and many others before her said.

Reading your initial post gave me the impression you are a Theist, entirely my bad as you've explained otherwise. It wasn't my intent to imply that folks who believe in a Supreme Being come to their conclusions by accident.


This is a huge topic, and I am not going to claim I have much - or any - knowledge about it. You may want to investigate the influence of Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty on the philosophy, as well as discovery of quantum mechanics as a whole. As for more general consciousness, as well as literature and art, it means that after the era of modernism many people are disappointed with those systems of thought that stem from the science. Science itself and consequences of its development were supposed to give ground for a perfect social order (or at least change it completely - sci-fi with its anti-/utopias anyone?), eliminate stupidity and such. But they didn't. It is a predictable process of how the following periods are oriented - toward human and science (antiquity, Rennaissance, Enlightenment) or toward the religion and spirit (Middle Ages, baroque, romanticism). Notice how they are positioned on the timeline. Ugh, this curve had a name and I just don't remember it :hea: Modernism and science were in 20th century - now it's time for something more spiritual, duh.

Of course there's also this theory on how atheism, as a belief strongly attached to secularity and liberalism is doomed to die - simply because liberal individual and societies with their "grab the life" principle have too few children to pass on their beliefs :)

Not much to add here. It just makes me realize I've got a lot of studying to do.

GodOfLight
29-04-06, 06:49
I actually find it quite amusing - and sad at the same time - to watch humanity in its eternal chase for the "truth" and "final solution" :)


well said :tmb: if only more people were aware of the beauty of the meaninglessness of our existence :p so many are hung up on finding the "right" answer" and the path to some sort of illusive "happiness" when the actual thing that makes these goals so special is the fact that they are actually unatainable and non-existent.

(hope that wasn't too much of a run-on sentence :p