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Thorn
09-05-06, 21:54
Reuters
Tuesday, May 9, 2006; 5:55 AM


SUWAYRA, Iraq (Reuters) - The bodies of 11 Iraqis, including the headless corpse of a 10-year-old boy, were found dumped in the Tigris river south of Baghdad on Tuesday, police sources said.

The bodies, nine of whom were beheaded, were discovered near the Sunni town of Suwayra, 25 miles southeast of Baghdad. Seven of them were wearing Iraqi security forces uniforms.

Police said the victims had been killed four or five days ago. All had their hands tied.

Police could not confirm the motive for the killing but sectarian violence has increased sharply since the February 22 bombing of a Shi'ite shrine sparked a wave of reprisals.

The dumping of bodies -- many of them bearing signs of torture -- is a common occurrence in Iraq.

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/09/AR2006050900279.html)
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My thoughts: I've seen pictures where young boys are holding knives with blood on their faces, heard about the passion for murder, and the ways it happens. Those murderers are definately sick and twisted barbarians. :(

Legend of Lara
09-05-06, 21:54
:eek: Wow, brutal.

MiCkiZ88
09-05-06, 21:55
:yik: sad..

RoseTyler
09-05-06, 21:58
Euw...

tha_mattster
09-05-06, 22:00
My thoughts: I've seen pictures where young boys are holding knives with blood on their faces, heard about the passion for murder, and the ways it happens. This is just added proof that Iraq is full of sick and twisted barbarians.


WOW What a racist you are. People dont commit nasty murders in america do they now? Of course they do and in every single other country too. And it doesnt help when you invade a country and cause chaos.

ELEN
09-05-06, 22:00
Oh my...

My thoughts: I've seen pictures where young boys are holding knives with blood on their faces, heard about the passion for murder, and the ways it happens. This is just added proof that Iraq is full of sick and twisted barbarians.

Barbarians are everywhere, not only in Iraq. The more people live in a country, the more barbarians you see. When a country has millions of citizens, criminality grows easier.

xMiSsCrOfTx
09-05-06, 22:02
Very disgusting. And yes, no matter where you go, you'll find many sick and twisted barbarians. Not only in Iraq.

Legend of Lara
09-05-06, 22:02
When a country has millions of citizens, criminality grows easier.

Thank God I live in Iceland.

Melonie Tomb Raider
09-05-06, 22:04
I don't think Clara is being racist at all... There are some great Iraqi people, my dad met some really nice ones when he was there. But many, many of them are not so great. Clara wasn't saying all the Iraqi people were bad.

The fact is, I find barbaric appropriate in many cases. For example: If Sadam gets the death penalty, his death is going to be publically aired on tv in Iraq. Sadam definitely deserves to die; however, his death should not be a method of entertainment.

Thorn
09-05-06, 22:06
Please understand that I called the murderers barbarians because of they way they murder. That's it.

conorcroft2001
09-05-06, 22:06
Awful!

Conor

tazmine
09-05-06, 23:50
I do think that that when you find the headless corpse of a 10 year old child that you are perfectly justified in calling the murderers "barbarians".


Mel, is your dad home?

tlr online
09-05-06, 23:51
I do think that that when you find the headless corpse of a 10 year old child that you are perfectly justified in calling the murderers "barbarians".
Yup. I would have to agree with Taz here (and I don't do that often! ;) )

tazmine
09-05-06, 23:57
:)

Draco
10-05-06, 07:58
Well now...certainly not the ideal way to spend your time...the human race is so discouraging sometimes.

Muhammad
10-05-06, 08:13
My thoughts: I've seen pictures where young boys are holding knives with blood on their faces, heard about the passion for murder, and the ways it happens. This is just added proof that Iraq is full of sick and twisted barbarians.

Don't you mean Iraq was filled with sick and twisted barbarians at the begining of the so-called War on Terrorisim.

Muhammad
10-05-06, 08:28
Please understand that I called the murderers barbarians because of they way they murder. That's it.

That's like calling all Muslims terrorists because some terrorist group, which so happens to be Islamic, are driving planes into building. I'm Muslim,am I a terrorist? I did plant a bomb somewhere in this forum, all you krazzy Ammerikkans are going down!!!1

angelika
10-05-06, 08:31
Humans are the fearest beasts on the planet.

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 08:49
WOW What a racist you are.
With the amount of times I see people use the word "racist" to describe their disagreement with someone, it's a wonder the word has not lost its meaning...

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Don't you mean Iraq was filled with sick and twisted barbarians at the begining of the so-called War on Terrorisim.
So it isn't now? I seem to remember someone by the name of Al-Zarqawi still running around in there. Then of course there are the foreigner fighters coming in through Syria and Iran. How unfortunate that Al Qaeda hates the US so much they are willing to kill their fellow Muslims...oh wait, Wahhabists don't acknowledge the Shia as legitament Muslims, so I guess it's OK to bomb their mosques and incite conflict between them and the Sunni.

That's like calling all Muslims terrorists because some terrorist group, which so happens to be Islamic, are driving planes into building.
Apparently it's not. This person already clarified their position and who they were describing.

I'm Muslim,am I a terrorist?
I don't see anyone suggesting or asking if you are anything.

I did plant a bomb somewhere in this forum, all you krazzy Ammerikkans are going down!!!
So why is it OK for you to generalize "krazzy Ammerikkans" in the exact same way you are suggesting is the wrong way to describe people in general?

MiCkiZ88
10-05-06, 08:52
That's like calling all Muslims terrorists because some terrorist group, which so happens to be Islamic, are driving planes into building. I'm Muslim,am I a terrorist? I did plant a bomb somewhere in this forum, all you krazzy Ammerikkans are going down!!!1
srry.. can't stop laughing :vlol:

good point though.. :D

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 09:13
good point though.. :D
I don't see the connection. I mean, if someone said "the IRA are barbarians," it would make little sense to me to see a Catholic start accusing the poster of being prejudice against Catholics, especially when the description "Catholics" is not applied in reference to "barbarians." If the original poster clarifies their words/stance/description/position, then any further comments in regards to their original statement being a description of something other than what they have clarified remains as suppositions without hard evidence.

tha_mattster
10-05-06, 09:18
With the amount of times I see people use the word "racist" to describe their disagreement with someone, it's a wonder the word has not lost its meaning...



The person said 'Iraq is full of sick and twisted barbarians.' That is completely unjustified. When you start calling people barbarians you dehumanise them.

First of all the people commiting insurgent attacks in Iraq are in the minority by far. Iraqi people are not idiots, they have an ancient culture, and (im not sure if they do now), but they had a good education system compared with many other countries. People in Iraq are the same as people anywhere. In such terrible circumstances people do things they would never consider if they were safe and well off like us in the UK. Remember the flooding in America? People were being robbed by gangs and shot at when they were trying to get food. Nobody said there was anything inherantly bad about americans though or that is was full of barbarians.

Muhammad
10-05-06, 10:02
So why is it OK for you to generalize "krazzy Ammerikkans" in the exact same way you are suggesting is the wrong way to describe people in general?

Have you ever heard of sarcasm? I didn't say/type Crazy Americans in a serious tone, did I?

The terrorists are maniacs who deserve to be slaughtered etc... But the foreign troopers are no Angels from Heavens either. ;)

Also let's face it, there's an undeniably large number of Americans and Europeans are racists against Arabs and Muslims just because of what that Selfish ******* known as Osama Bin Laden did, why is that? Bush is a selfish *******, and you don't see us Arabs declaring hate on the civilians of the US, on the contrary.

I agree with everything tha_mattster said.

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 10:05
The person said 'Iraq is full of sick and twisted barbarians.'
1st question: Is that a false statement?
2nd question: If so, how? What is the counter-evidence

That is completely unjustified.
If the statement is not false, then how so? I saw no counter-evidence on your part. I would ask that you please back your contentions.

When you start calling people barbarians you dehumanise them

Yeah, that's the point. When people kill for bloodlust, their actions set a presidence for an apropriate description. You actually built upon that premise when you added that Americans murder people in nasty ways as well,thus it would not be inacurate to say that America "is full of sick and twisted barbarians" since we have a high level of murders, rapes, etc. Notice the word all is not included in the description of Americans.


First of all the people commiting insurgent attacks in Iraq are in the minority by far.
True, and apparently, they are losing more with each passing day, according to recent information posted by Centcom. That doesn't mean they cannot be generalized according to their location and actions.

Iraqi people are not idiots, they have an ancient culture, and (im not sure if they do now), but they had a good education system compared with many other countries.
Where did anyone say they were "idiots?" You are introducing (negative)adjectives which were not found inthe innitial statement.

People in Iraq are the same as people anywhere.
Please explain.

In such terrible circumstances people do things they would never consider if they were safe and well off like us in the UK.
Circumstances do not make decisions - people do. I hear that crime rate in jolly ol' England (especially in London) is somewhat high. If eveything is so good (and considering the lack of gun ownership,) then why's the crime rate high at all?


Remember the flooding in America? People were being robbed by gangs and shot at when they were trying to get food.
Yes, many of these gangs came from out of state as well:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46373

So if I said they were barabarians, would that be an inapropriate description of gang memebers, professional looters, thugs, etc.? If so, why? What is the proper way to describe people who kill just for the sake of killing?

Nobody said there was anything inherantly bad about americans though or that is was full of barbarians
Isn't it? I live in a gang-infested neighborhood. My block is full of barbarian-types. Times their number by just 100 cities and you have a lot of barbarians.

YvesSL
10-05-06, 10:07
This thread cracks me up!

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 10:16
Have you ever heard of sarcasm? I didn't say/type Crazy Americans in a serious tone, did I?
Maybe I was being sarcastic too. As you know, it's sometimes difficult to convey true intent in a written form.;)

The terrorists are maniacs who deserve to be slaughtered etc... But the foreign troopers are no Angels from Heavens either.
That statement 100% factual. There is, of course, something to be said about people who at least try to avoid firing at holy sites despite an enemy presence though, wouldn't you agree?

Say, you're from Lebanon? Elissa is my favorite Arabic singer. I understand she's the first Lebonese singer to win the World Music Award. She's supposed to tour here in the US, but her closest concert is 6 hours away from me. Too bad...I'd like to see her perform live. :(

Muhammad
10-05-06, 10:44
Say, you're from Lebanon? Elissa is my favorite Arabic singer. I understand she's the first Lebonese singer to win the World Music Award. She's supposed to tour here in the US, but her closest concert is 6 hours away from me. Too bad...I'd like to see her perform live. :(

She's really something. She's my 2nd favorite after Haifa Wehbi :)

She'll probably sing her new single "Bastanak". It's good to hear that she has fans outside the Middle East.

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 10:47
Sorry, I didn't see this part:

Also let's face it, there's an undeniably large number of Americans and Europeans are racists against Arabs and Muslims just because of what that Selfish ******* known as Osama Bin Laden did,
Large number of Americans...? I personally don't know anyone who hates Arabs and Muslims. I know of some people who try to promote "hate," but for the most part, I think the primary issue is a lack of cultural comprehension. The thing that many non-Muslims harp on is that teeny tiny verse in the Qur'an which states:

5:51] O you who believe, do not take [certain] Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.


Rarely do I see these verses posted with it:

60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.


To be fair, I'm aware that some Muslim sites omit the last two text examples as well when discussing other religions, but hey...we're all human. As far as Europeans go, I know that there's an anti-Turkish movement in Germany, but I'm not so knowledgeable about the rest of the countries. The only other extra thing I know for a fact that there are several Belgian Catholic Bishops who allow Muslim illegal immigrants to stay in their churches.

In regards to the general opinion of Arabs and Muslims, Osama is not the first extremist to inspire a general distrust or dislike. Khomeinni and Qadafi did their part over the years (although Qadafi has done an about-face since the war in Iraq. Good for him. I hope Libiya prospers under his new rule.) The one thing Osama did differently is he gave the world a face for "successful" terrorism. Really is a tragedy for us all...

Bush is a selfish *******
I'm not his biggest fan either. I agree with some of his policies, but not the majority of them.

...you don't see us Arabs declaring hate on the civilians of the US, on the contrary.
Soooooo what should I think when a large crowd has signs that say "death to America" and chant just as much? "Death to America" and "Nuke Washington" are not exactly on par with signs that say "Peeeeeeace - we love you American citizens."

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 10:54
She's really something. She's my 2nd favorite after Haifa Wehbi :)

She'll probably sing her new single "Bastanak". It's good to hear that she has fans outside the Middle East.
Oh man...I'll have to go get it. I buy my CDs from this Lebonese-Armenian guy who's about an hour away from me. As for this Haifa Wehbi, I'll ask him about her when I see him. I'm out for now. Thanks for engaging with me in some intelligent converse - that helps pave the road towards the future after all...


Masa'a Al Kair :D

Catapharact
10-05-06, 11:31
My thoughts: I've seen pictures where young boys are holding knives with blood on their faces, heard about the passion for murder, and the ways it happens. This is just added proof that Iraq is full of sick and twisted barbarians.

Quite easy to just make a statement like that without knowing the roots of the problem. Ask yourself this; WHY did it came to that? Is it culture? Well some tribes do have child militants but in the overall sense it isn't. Is it poverty? Most likely. Without education, people need a way to earn a living and if gurella orginizations are willing to pay big money for random assasinations then the masses will take it. Is it lack of education? Most DEFINATELY. People who lack education lack the basic moral obligations. To them there is no such thing as right or wrong; Only their basic instincts to survive.

Thorn
10-05-06, 11:43
I said Iraq is full of barbarians because of all the insane grotesque murders that are happening there. I never said all Iraqis were. I was talking about the large amount of murderers there. Whether you want to believe it or not there is a difference. So please quit calling me a racist because this has nothing to do with race. This topic is about the large amount of murderers over there atm.

@Catapharact: Since all the victims heads were cut off it more closely indicates it was out of sick ritual. Whether they know it's right or wrong it doesn't matter. They took the time to decapitate those innocents and in all likely hood it was because they're barbarians.

Catapharact
10-05-06, 11:49
@Catapharact: Since all the victims heads were cut off it more closely indicates it was out of sick ritual. Whether they know it's right or wrong it doesn't matter. They took the time to decapitate those innocents and in all likely hood it was because they're barbarians.

Alright, how about I take other examples. United States; 10 old girl was raped, killed and dismembered; Her remains were thrown near a stream and were later found by a random jogger.

Do I need to assume that the actions of THAT individual refelect the overall society? No. Then I would be assuming that you yourself have murderous intentions and that its all infulenced by gothic punk music or something.

However, I know better. I took the time to educate myself on worldly views. I hope you can do the same too.

If you want, I have great links to independent sources that you'll like to see.

Thorn
10-05-06, 11:56
Well it's true that every country is full of barbarians. I just said that because I'm always hearing on the news about grotesque murders that are constantly happening over there. Maybe the news is inflating the looks of it. I'll edit my first post because I don't want people to get the wrong interpretation. Though I do have to say it's really sad to see and hear about these kinds of deaths. :(

Catapharact
10-05-06, 12:01
Media overhype my dear maiden; Yes it is terrible that such cases are found, but lately its all that forigen news channels like to show. Why? It boosts their ratings.

Darfur in Sudan has seen worst cases of mass murder at this moment and I barely see anything about that. Right now, Oxfam has indicated that many of the fleeing refugees wont have enough provisions to make it though the season. Whats more; The killing continues.

Sad that nothing of this is everr shown on the news...

ELEN
10-05-06, 12:01
Do I need to assume that the actions of THAT individual refelect the overall society? No.

Of course not. But the people that do things like that can be called barbarians. Thorn said "They took the time to decapitate those innocents and in all likely hood it was because they're barbarians." which means that the people that decapitated the innocent are barbarians, not all Iraqis. I don't think that Iraqis would like a country as it is now.

I said above that when a country has millions of citizens, criminality grows easier. America for example. Greece is tiny compared to America (regarding the number of citizens). If we have 100 murderers, for example, America has 500 (random numbers). There are people in Ameracia that decapitate other people, same as in Iraq. Both catefories of people in America and Iraq (AND in Greece) are indeed barbarian. But those who do these, not all citizens.

Tomb Raider Master
10-05-06, 12:03
Oh my God. That's awful. :(

Catapharact
10-05-06, 12:05
To quote one of my most fav. lines "There is method in madness."

Why did that happen? What led that person to decapitate an innocent 10 yr. old child? Was it flaming rage? Politically motivated? Family feud? Such things need to be figured out and taken care of so such actions like this can be cureved down. All is not how it seems sometimes.

MiCkiZ88
10-05-06, 12:16
I know it.. but I gues you can say I don't know a ****
why do I know.. My step mom and her two girls are from israel.. they have lots of arabic friends and so on.. Heck I even have friends from egypt... Arabic people are extremely kind :hug: from my experience..

Draco
10-05-06, 17:26
Regardless of the reasoning the fact remains that barbarism is not wholly without process or 'justification'. Nobody does anything for no reason. Whether that reason is even remotely worthy of the act or not is another discussion altogether.

Every human being has the potential for barbarism, it's the ones that don't that are stronger people.

Lenochka
10-05-06, 17:41
this is horrible what a hard thing to find
When i read the title i thought it save Elven like elf bodys

elliotcroft
10-05-06, 18:31
:yik: sad..
scary not sad

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 18:47
To quote one of my most fav. lines "There is method in madness."

Why did that happen? What led that person to decapitate an innocent 10 yr. old child? Was it flaming rage? Politically motivated? Family feud?
I'm sorry, but there is no "reason" for anyone, anywhere to cut off someone's head slowly with a dull knife. It wasn't a split second decision - it was a decision made beforehand with 100% malicious intent. That is not how civilized people act (hence they are in the minority.)

Such things need to be figured out and taken care of so such actions like this can be cureved down.
I don't want to know why someone thinks it's ok to decapitate an unarmed, tied up human being. What I want to know that such actions are not tolerated in the least, and that their choice of actions are universally condemed quickly, knowlingly and without question by all people so as to make people such as these terrorists think twice about committing these acts of barbarism in the future. Seriously, the American equivalent would be like me entertaining the reasons for the actions of those who were busted for their torture and humiliation against Iraqi POWs in Abu Gharib, and suggesting that we need to understand them better. "But...why did they do it? Was it about rage? Was it politically motivated? Was it abou-"


- meh! I don't care what it was about; all I care about is that people condemn those actions and that the perpetrators get punished severely for their crimes against the Iraqi POWs. It was wrong. It was barbaric. The end. Same goes for the decapatators. What they did was wrong. What they did was barbaric. The end.

TRelic
10-05-06, 19:00
I'm going to Iraq this summer.


Weeee! SPLAT.

Catapharact
10-05-06, 19:25
I don't want to know why someone thinks it's ok to decapitate an unarmed, tied up human being. What I want to know that such actions are not tolerated in the least, and that their choice of actions are universally condemed quickly, knowlingly and without question by all people so as to make people such as these terrorists think twice about committing these acts of barbarism in the future. Seriously, the American equivalent would be like me entertaining the reasons for the actions of those who were busted for their torture and humiliation against Iraqi POWs in Abu Gharib, and suggesting that we need to understand them better. "But...why did they do it? Was it about rage? Was it politically motivated? Was it abou-"


- meh! I don't care what it was about; all I care about is that people condemn those actions and that the perpetrators get punished severely for their crimes against the Iraqi POWs. It was wrong. It was barbaric. The end. Same goes for the decapatators. What they did was wrong. What they did was barbaric. The end.

You would see things differently if you were to see the method of capital punishement here. You do know that the condemned in many Middle Eastern countrie is usually publically beheaded?

Though fear may be an effective way to quell the crimes, it may not be effective on the long run.

Should the guilty be punished? Offcourse. However I do wanna know their REAL motives. Even if I have to beat it out of em, I'll figure it out. To tackle a problem, you go right to the source.

MiCkiZ88
10-05-06, 19:30
scary not sad
Strange.. I don't find it scary.. but sad.. in a way.. if someone get's the point... not in a mood to clarify anything....

Shark_Blade
10-05-06, 20:06
More murders everyday...what's wrong with the world?

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 20:32
You would see things differently if you were to see the method of capital punishement here. You do know that the condemned in many Middle Eastern countrie is usually publically beheaded?

Though fear may be an effective way to quell the crimes, it may not be effective on the long run.
For the record, I'm not keen on beheadings no matter what, and I stateded as much. There is a difference, however, in your example in that I'm left with the impression that it's the athorities who execute people who have commited crimes, as opposed to terrorists grabbing (sometimes random) civilians who are trying to help other civilians.

Should the guilty be punished? Offcourse. However I do wanna know their REAL motives. Even if I have to beat it out of em, I'll figure it out. To tackle a problem, you go right to the source.
But of course, not as a vigilante action, right? You mean within the law by the police or the military, as opposed to people doing violent things to other people OUTSIDE of the law, right? Also, by this admission of yours, should I assume you are OK with what the US military does with captured terrorists and/or other enemy combatants in regards to extracting information about (for example) Al Qaeda?

Catapharact
10-05-06, 20:38
But of course, not as a vigilante action, right? You mean within the law by the police or the military, as opposed to people doing violent things to other people OUTSIDE of the law, right? Also, by this admission of yours, should I assume you are OK with what the US military does with captured terrorists and/or other enemy combatants in regards to extracting information about (for example) Al Qaeda?

I would be IF they did not sign on with the Geniva convention. They however did and thus they will follow rules with in the confines of that statement. The treatement some of the prisoners suffer at Gunatanamo are against the Geniva convention. If it is, wouldn't you say the U.S. is being quite hypocritical?

Wolfguard
10-05-06, 21:16
I would be IF they did not sign on with the Geniva convention. They however did and thus they will follow rules with in the confines of that statement. The treatement some of the prisoners suffer at Gunatanamo are against the Geniva convention. If it is, wouldn't you say the U.S. is being quite hypocritical?
1. Please show me evidence that Al Qaeda and their allies have signed and adhere to the rules of war and POWs so as to be allowed protection under the Geneva convention.
2. Please direct me to which article within the Geneva accords explains the lawful/proper methods to deal with captured terrorists.
3. By your questioning the lawfulness of US actions, it would be unfair for you NOT to do the same in regards to the terrorists in Iraq.


In addition, the current point you are making in the discussion is an ammendment to your original statement which was devoid of stipulations such as the Geneva convention. Your original statement:

"I do wanna know their REAL motives. Even if I have to beat it out of em, I'll figure it out. To tackle a problem, you go right to the source."



Also, would you mind providing clarification in regards to the questions I asked:

You don't mean as a vigilante action, right? You mean within the law by the police or the military, as opposed to people doing violent things to other people OUTSIDE of the law, right?

Finally, while I understand the value of figuring out the motive as to why someone does bad things to other people, there are some things which need to be condemned outright. I say what happened at Abu Gharib to Iraqi POWs was bad and an embarissment to this country. What do you say about the people who have cut off heads of civilians?

Catapharact
10-05-06, 21:29
Sticking to the point at hand:

Yes I did mean within the law. Law enforcement have been given the responsibility of protecting our people. That responsibility also includes identifying and erradicating the key problems that cause carime to happen in the first place, and that includes finding out about motives the suspect in question had.