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Catapharact
24-05-06, 14:41
The Game of Wife
Gay marriage comes to video games.

By Clive Thompson


How's this for virtual reality? Even as President Bush tries to squash gay marriage with the Constitution, same-sex unions are beginning to crop up in video games. Recently, Atari released The Temple of Elemental Evil, a computer game based with nerdish precision on the actual dice-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons rules. It has the requisite elf magic and fighting orcs—but it also has a gay wedding, as Matthew D. Barton described in his (rather stunned) online review of the game. Barton brought his scrappy band of adventurers into a town where they met a slave character named Bertram. He explained that if Barton could defeat Bertram's master in battle, Bertram would repay him by marrying one of the male members of his group. Barton duly won Bertram's freedom and watched as two male characters were cheerfully wed.

"A portrait is displayed with two men embraced, and the narrator levelly explains that you and Bertram were married and lived, as they say, happily ever after," he wrote. And Elemental Evil isn't the only place where gamers can find gay romance. Players of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic discovered that while playing a female Jedi, they get hit on by another female Jedi. Later this year, virtual gay wedlock will hit the mainstream when The Sims 2, the long-awaited sequel to the most popular PC title of all time, allows marriages between same-sex Sims.

Video games have long allowed players to experiment with new and often taboo identities. In online games such as Everquest, almost half of the women characters are actually men—guys who prefer to cross-dress when they play. In the '90s, Tomb Raider and its imitators were so popular that for several years, American teenage boys played almost exclusively as buxom, wasp-waisted women. But for young men, the bulk of these games' audience, experiencing life as an ass-kicking action chick is probably less threatening than adopting the role of a homosexual man. The new generation of gay-positive games presents an interesting test of how far role-playing can stretch. Will straight gamers want to play at being gay?

For years, the reverse has been true: Gay gamers have had no choice but to play as straight characters. Ian Wilson, one gay player I talked to online, says one of his favorite games is Metal Gear Solid, except for the parts where his character has to interact with women. "They're always trying to hit on you," he says. And it's true: In most games, the romance plots are pure boilerplate, endless tales of square-jawed guys hooking up with attractive dames. This is why family-values critics have targeted the violence in video games but never complained about the sexual politics. The gender roles in games are practically lifted from Father Knows Best.

If you squint, though, you can spot a few bits of queer culture lurking among the pixels. The super-buff characters in the Street Fighter arcade games seemed like something from a Gay Pride Day float—particularly Guile, a military fighter so deeply devoted to his soldier partner Charlie that, as one blogger noted, it was practically a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. (The same blogger cited the Darkstalkers character Victor, who fights by whipping around enemies using his butt cheeks, as another example: "In gay wrestling porn, that counts as foreplay.") Over at the "gaymers" site gamers experimentations, gay players sometimes post mash notes about their favorite "cute guy" characters, who include Ryu Hyabusa, a brooding hottie from Ninja Gaiden, or Balflear from Final Fantasy, who kind of looks like Orlando Bloom.

Guile, Ryu Hyabusa, and Balflear all hail from Japanese games, which is what's really significant here: The world of games is strongly influenced by Japanese pop culture, where gender is a lot blurrier. Male heroes are often "bishounen," that strikingly feminine anime look you see so often, with long hair and soft features. (Ten years ago, I spent months playing Samurai Showdown before finding out that Amakusa, a woman with flowing red hair and long nails, was, whoops, a guy.) This style reached its apotheosis with the Final Fantasy series. At one point in Final Fantasy VII, you actually have to cross-dress the character Cloud (and get him to flirt with a male enemy) to complete a mission. Even the Japanese butch characters read as gay, such as the bearded tough guy Barrett—"a bear love poster child," as another gay gamer joked to me.

Still, while gamers enjoy campy characters, not everyone is comfortable with openly gay ones. When news of the marriage in Temple of Elemental Evil spread online, several discussion boards exploded, with a few players complaining that the Elemental Evil game was "trying to force this gay crap down our throats." It will be interesting to see the reaction when The Sims 2 launches because while The Temple of Elemental Evil and Final Fantasy are certainly path-breaking, they're still niche games aimed at the geek-core audience. Middle America doesn't know they exist. The Sims, in contrast, is the biggest family-friendly game of all time. Soccer moms in Idaho play it, and so do their kids. What happens when little Johnny wants to have his boy Sim marry the neighbor's son?

Not much, I bet. Nobody inveighs against "liberal game-makers" the way they demonize "liberal Hollywood." While the majority of straight, young-guy gamers in the United States will probably never prefer to play as gay men, they know this is a fantasy world in which anything goes, including sexuality. They'll be shocked, surprised, then they'll move on to kill orcs elsewhere. In the world of games, that's tolerance.

Punaxe
24-05-06, 14:52
"trying to force this gay crap down our throats."
Lol, straightforward language in official news, I like it :p

Well, I think his conclusion is quite true. Gay characters in our virtual words? Sure, they're in our real worlds as well. Now excuse me while I complete the game.
I suppose there are more gay players that will like this feature than gay-haters that don't. :tmb:

illuminati30
24-05-06, 15:06
LOL oh dear, this is as bad as 'Tomb Raider is for gays' thread :vlol:

Catapharact what is your point of view on this, i would be interested to know. Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing?

Catapharact
24-05-06, 15:07
My POV?

Economically, it won't fly. Trust me.

And I'll limit it to that.

MiCkiZ88
24-05-06, 15:09
I dont see what so bad about gay lately? :confused: always gay that and gay this... :confused:

stereopathic
24-05-06, 15:09
this was a good read. i remeber a gay character in fable that you could interact with romantically if you felt like it. giving players the choice of playing a game through as straight or gay is good for the industry. options and tolerance are both positives for gaming.

illuminati30
24-05-06, 15:11
My POV?

Economically, it won't fly. Trust me.

And I'll limit it to that.

Come on, you cant post stuff like this and then not tell us how you feel about it. Dont be as you would say 'powder puffy'!

Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Forget economics, and think in social terms.

interstellardave
24-05-06, 15:13
My POV?

Economically, it won't fly. Trust me.

And I'll limit it to that.

I find it hard to believe that. Of course some people will react negatively, and cause a stir about it. A stir that will only lead to free publicity for the game. A tad more sales may occur in the gay community and a lot more sales may happen with people who are just curious about the gameplay possibilities. If it's a good game it'll sell, and I think this will actually help it sell in the long run. Just my initial thought on the subject; but I don't actually care what happens... I'll only buy games that interest me, gay options or not!

Catapharact
24-05-06, 15:15
Come on, you cant post stuff like this and then not tell us how you feel about it. Dont be as you would say 'powder puffy'!

Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Forget economics, and think in social terms.

Lol! For once there is someone on this forum apart from a few who has a backbone Lol! Kudos.

Well seeing as the major world population still doesn't accepts Gays, I don't think its economically feesable to create a game that has homosexual content and expect the world to go along with it.

There are quite many concervative countries out there who wouldn't think twice about cencoring the content out. Though games have always been comfortable to subliminally input "controvertial" content; to go main stream with the idea... I don't think the world is ready.

illuminati30
24-05-06, 15:15
Personally, i dont think its a bad thing. The only way gay people will be accepted in society is if they stop hiding away like they have something to be ashamed of.

MiCkiZ88
24-05-06, 15:17
Personally, i dont think its a bad thing. The only way gay people will be accepted in society is if they stop hiding away like they have something to be ashamed of.
true... :) They are humans you know :)

interstellardave
24-05-06, 15:17
This may help people who are struggling with their own sexuality become more comfortable with it... help them adjust in real life eventually.

illuminati30
24-05-06, 15:22
Lol! For once there is someone on this forum apart from a few who has a backbone Lol! Kudos.

Well seeing as the major world population still doesn't accepts Gays, I don't think its economically feesable to create a game that has homosexual content and expect the world to go along with it.

There are quite many concervative countries out there who wouldn't think twice about cencoring the content out. Though games have always been comfortable to subliminally input "controvertial" content; to go main stream with the idea... I don't think the world is ready.

:vlol: How many gay posts are you going to make? Have you got something to tell us like? :vlol: <expects an I am straight post!>

Again you have still not told me what YOU think, would it offend you?

When you think about games that have been accepted, playboy mansion et al, the same could have been said about them.

illuminati30
24-05-06, 15:25
This may help people who are struggling with their own sexuality become more comfortable with it... help them adjust in real life eventually.

Exactly, to keep hiding away like it is something to be ashamed of says basically that it is something to be ashamed of!

Catapharact
24-05-06, 15:25
I am a Management student. I can't go subjective on this topic; Something in my head thats telling me to stop right there ;).

As I said... The world isn't ready for it.

interstellardave
24-05-06, 15:26
:vlol: How many gay posts are you going to make? Have you got something to tell us like? :vlol: <expects an I am straight post!>

Again you have still not told me what YOU think, would it offend you?

When you think about games that have been accepted, playboy mansion et al, the same could have been said about them.

Playboy: The Mansion is an interesting case... only showed female breasts but the game wasn't sold anywhere but in actual game stores. No Best Buy, no Wal-Mart, etc. Pretty stupid when GTA is sold everywhere... and so was God Of War.

Catapharact
24-05-06, 15:27
Playboy: The Mansion is an interesting case... only showed female breasts but the game wasn't sold anywhere but in actual game stores. No Best Buy, no Wal-Mart, etc. Pretty stupid when GTA is sold everywhere... and so was God Of War.

Just imagine what will happen to a game that freely advertises open homosexual relationships.

illuminati30
24-05-06, 15:28
I am a Management student. I can't go subjective on this topic; Something in my head thats telling me to stop right there ;).

As I said... The world isn't ready for it.

Thats a bit like starting a fire and running away and saying 'it wasnt me!'

From you saying 'The world isn't ready for it' I think this means you dont think it is a bad thing, although i can not tell. One question, when is the world ready for it?

illuminati30
24-05-06, 15:29
Just imagine what will happen to a game that freely advertises open homosexual relationships.

emmm you can buy DVDs from tesco that do.

interstellardave
24-05-06, 15:30
Just imagine what will happen to a game that freely advertises open homosexual relationships.

Hmmm that is part of the equation I didn't consider. But here in the US, at least, things are always cock-eyed, sex-wise. I could see a backlash against stores not stocking a game because of gay-themed content, but no-one will stick up for a game that has heterosexual themed content--or even just a little nudity. While all at the same time the most grotesqly violent material is sold with only the occasional--and ineffective--protest!

illuminati30
24-05-06, 15:32
Hmmm that is part of the equation I didn't consider. But here in the US, at least, things are always cock-eyed, sex-wise. I could see a backlash against stores not stocking a game because of gay-themed content, but no-one will stick up for a game that has heterosexual themed content--or even just a little nudity. While all at the same time the most grotesqly violent material is sold with only the occasional--and ineffective--protest!

If i wanted a game, and a store didnt have it, i would purchase it somewhere else. Probably wouldnt shop their again if they had this attitude.

Catapharact
24-05-06, 15:34
Thats a bit like starting a fire and running away and saying 'it wasnt me!'

From you saying 'The world isn't ready for it' I think this means you dont think it is a bad thing, although i can not tell. One question, when is the world ready for it?

Alright open view:

We already have seen intolerence in general around the world about homosexual content. People still precieve it as some sort of sickness that can't be cured. Though it may not be acceptable to segrigate gays, I do wanna mention that overly open depiction of content that isn't accepted by quite a few cultures around the world isn't productive.

Game developers have to be careful as to how to walk this thin line. It would be like creating the movie Kingdom of Heaven. How do you careate something that will cause so much controversy? Like Ridely Scott said, "How a Porcupine makes love; very carefully."

Punaxe
24-05-06, 15:38
The only cultures you'd really want to reach with gaming are probably the western and asian. Do they have problems with homosexuality? I seriously don't think that "the world isn't ready for it"... I think it quite is.
And if it isn't, this game is likely to make make it ready.

Catapharact
24-05-06, 15:42
To quote Voltaire: "I may not agree with your views but I'll defend your right to say them."

Personally, I do not agree with homosexual relationships; I have my reasons. However that doesn't necessary mean that I am a gay hater. I will tolerate a person's preference. Though I just don't expect a person to lecture me into changing my position on the topic.

Punaxe
24-05-06, 15:47
Of course... But you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about the world. That's quite a difference.

Catapharact
24-05-06, 15:48
You kid yourself if you say the world will accept open gay relationships (especially many concervitive coountries.)

Punaxe
24-05-06, 15:49
In-game isn't quite that open imho.

MiCkiZ88
24-05-06, 16:14
so games sshoud be completely straight huh? :rolleyes: that's a bit offending..

Angel_14
24-05-06, 16:20
I don't have problems with homosexual games. They could be fun. I remember, when I used to play with the first Sims, and I made same sex couples, just because I enjoyed it. Gays have the rights too, to appear in video games. They are humans too, plus, it wasn't their choise, to be gays or straight. I would try out these kind of games, if my parents would allow me to buy it:ton:

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 16:23
I don't see why this game shouldn't be released..whoever doesn't validate homosexuality...don't play the game,simple as that!!!why does the world tend to make things more complicated then necessary?

Catapharact
24-05-06, 16:26
why does the world tend to make things more complicated then necessary?

That would be like saying why does everyone has to have such complex feelings and views.

Elysia
24-05-06, 16:29
One thing I think I get asked the most about my mod NPC for Baldurs Gate (after 'when is the next version coming out'!) is 'are you going to make her romanceable by female PCs?'

Some of this comes from those lovely chaps who just want to be a bit naughty, but I do have quite a few lesbians routing for me to make my character bisexual - it's about time being gay was 'un-demonised' and people realised that it is part of normal life (whatever that is... ;) ), and as for adding into games... why not? RPGs are the perfect format - you choose what sexuality you want your character to be. If you want them to be straight - fine. If you want them gay - off you go. If you like a bit o' both... well, we can cater for that too. If people get offended by that (when you have the choice to play what you like)... well, sorry, I would have to say 'deal with it, homophobe!'

:D

Catapharact
24-05-06, 16:30
If you want them to be straight - fine. If you want them gay - off you go.

First clear thought put in their post. Kudos.

Elysia
24-05-06, 16:37
It's just about choice ;) . That and the fact that people need to realise that just because you're playing a gay/straight/bisexual/asexual being in a game DOES NOT make you that person. Whilst roleplaying (awwwooooooga! Nerd alert! :p ), I've played a gay elf, a lesbian psychopath, a male character havng an affair with a femal character (the female character being played by a bloke... go figure!)... it's all about having a laugh. So therefore you could be as straight as a plank, but because you choose to have a camper-than-a-row-of-pink-tents main character, that dos not immediately imply you have secret gay yearnings, and vice versa. In fact, I would say the opposite... you know, those who shout the loudest and all that... ;) :D

Night Crawler
24-05-06, 16:45
I guess if you're against that sort of thing or it irks you out then don't buy the game. It's as simple as that.

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 16:54
I guess if you're against that sort of thing or it irks you out then don't buy the game. It's as simple as that.
yeap.no one's putting a gun to your head Cat to play the damn game ;)

Catapharact
24-05-06, 16:56
yeap.no one's putting a gun to your head Cat to play the damn game ;)

And there we go again...

Did I say I wanted gay games gone? Did I say any thing like that? No. You went off and drew your own conclusions.
Seriously its like I ahve to defend evey post I make. It sure wasn't like that before.

Such hypocracy... "Oh we accept all views here..." As friggin if! Not even close.

Elysia
24-05-06, 17:01
*jumps in with shiny sword of of forum justice*
To be fair to Cat, he himself didn't say he was against gay games personally, just that there might not be a market for them. I think on one hand he's probably right - hells, in a world where having nipples is a cardinal sin and with a lot of the gaming companies now owned by Hasbro and the like, getting anything with any kind of 'adult content' in them is hard enough (no pun intended...)... but the choice for the player to decide (in, for example, RPGs) their characters sexuality is a nice idea. I think it was one of the KotOR games - Bioware originally meant the PC characters to have gay options to their romances, but Hasbro got ticked off and told them to change it... it's a shame, really.

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 17:02
And there we go again...

Did I say I wanted gay games gone? Did I say any thing like that? No. You went off and drew your own conclusions.
Seriously its like I ahve to defend evey post I make. It sure wasn't like that before.

Such hypocracy... "Oh we accept all views here..." As friggin if! Not even close.

I'm not attacking you...I'm just saying...can't we just accept homosexuality and get on with our lives?it's genetic...

Night Crawler
24-05-06, 17:04
Speaking of gay, that's quite a homoerotic avatar you have there Catapharact...http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9481/halo0du.gif

Elysia
24-05-06, 17:08
I'm not attacking you...I'm just saying...can't we just accept homosexuality and get on with our lives?it's genetic...
Oooh, now there's a can o' worms and no mistake! Some say genetic, others say a sin in the eyes of God. Some say it's normal, others see it as the ultimate perversion...

I wish in my heart of hearts that gay relationships were held in as high regard as straight ones, but the truth is that sentiment is never ever going to be accepted by the staunch homophobes out there. Adn thenthere's those people who get shocked by just about anything and everything... ("Lordie! Did you see that? Disgusting! She had her *ankle* showing! In today's age... 2006... what would the children think? It's an obvious attempt to corrupt the kiddies, that's what it is..." :rolleyes: Yes, people like that still do exist...)

Catapharact
24-05-06, 17:10
Speaking of gay, that's quite a homoerotic avatar you have there Catapharact...

Offtopic:

Funny how no one else commented on that but you... Hmmm... Should I draw unmeaningful conclusions now?

Night Crawler
24-05-06, 17:15
Offtopic:

Funny how no one else commented on that but you... Hmmm... Should I draw nmeaningful conclusions now?I might have been the only one to say it but I'm sure I wasn't the only one thinking it. ;)

Come to whatever conclusions you want to, I'm straight but I'm not gonna preach that or get angry if anyone accuses me of being gay, what's the point?

Catapharact
24-05-06, 17:25
I might have been the only one to say it but I'm sure I wasn't the only one thinking it. ;)

Come to whatever conclusions you want to, I'm straight but I'm not gonna preach that or get angry if anyone accuses me of being gay, what's the point?

Offtopic (again.):

The point is simple. People may wanna draw their conculsions on you but you have your right to put your POV through. Seems like anyone here who may not agree with the masses gets the "Troll" lable. Its down right irritating. Not everyone is gonna agree with the topic in hand. Get used to it.

Night Crawler
24-05-06, 17:30
Offtopic (again.):

The point is simple. People may wanna draw their conculsions on you but you ahve your right to put your POV through. Seems like anyone here who may not agree with the masses gets the "Troll" lable. Its down right irritating. Not everyone is gonna agree with the topic in hand. Get used to it.What are you talking about? I never said everyone should agree to the topic at hand and I'm fully aware of what I have a right to do thank you very much!

I'm just having a bit of fun here, getting you to sprout off-topic in your own thread after having seen you run around in everyone elses telling them that thier threads are spammy, useless and off-topic. :D

I'm done now. ;)

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 17:31
Where to begin...

In online games such as Everquest, almost half of the women characters are actually men—guys who prefer to cross-dress when they play. In the '90s, Tomb Raider and its imitators were so popular that for several years, American teenage boys played almost exclusively as buxom, wasp-waisted women. But for young men, the bulk of these games' audience, experiencing life as an ass-kicking action chick is probably less threatening than adopting the role of a homosexual man. The new generation of gay-positive games presents an interesting test of how far role-playing can stretch.
Ok, that's stupid. The writer of this article is attempting to assign his own stereotype to males who play as female characters. I have chosen to use female game characters since Chun Li in Street Fighter II and basically, it has to do with one or more of the following:

1.asthetics
2.the character
3.abilities

I'm neither gay nor a cross dresser, and I'm not even remotely close to being curious about either. The writer is basically doing exactly what many people complain about - he's generalizing a group of people, in this case, male gamers, based either on what he thinks he knows or what he wants you to think. l'll take my case even further: most games which give you the option of playing a female character attempt to make them appear as attractive as possible. Attractive to who, would-be gay men? Let's see, guy wants to play as a female game character and makes the female look as visually hawt as possible. Visually hawt for whom? If it's for the player's benefit - Hello, not gay! If it's to attract gay men, then why use a female at all? Guess it goes back to point 1. asthetics based on personal preference, which does not necessarily have to do with sexuality at all. If it did for each and every person every single time, then golly gee, what's the explanation this writer has for all the straight guys who play as...

-drum roll-

...male characters?

If you squint, though, you can spot a few bits of queer culture lurking among the pixels. The super-buff characters in the Street Fighter arcade games seemed like something from a Gay Pride Day float—particularly Guile, a military fighter so deeply devoted to his soldier partner Charlie that, as one blogger noted, it was practically a "don't ask, don't tell" situation.
You see only what you are trying to look for. Conveniently, this person left out the fact that Guile has a wife and kid. Considering the characters of both he and Charlie were military and both served together - golly gee, it's not uncommon to think of your fellow soldiers as "brothers in arms." One is killed, the other seeks revenge. Is this behavior only an occurance which happens among gays and bis? Of course not! Again, this is an attempt to assign a description to something which is based on nothing concrete whatsoever.

The same blogger cited the Darkstalkers character Victor, who fights by whipping around enemies using his butt cheeks, as another example: "In gay wrestling porn, that counts as foreplay.")
Darkstalkers is one of my favorite games. Reasons:

1. Cool characters
2. The game never takes itself too seriously

Now, if we continue down the route which the writer implies, then there must be other inuendos for every other aspect of Darkstalkers, say for instance, the fact that characters are turned into baby or cutesy versions of themselves when hit with certain projectiles. Must be for people who are into child porn. OMG - Anakaris must also be a wink-wink to those who like bondage since he has a move which mummifies his opponents.

C'mon, talk about grasping at straws.

I spent months playing Samurai Showdown before finding out that Amakusa, a woman with flowing red hair and long nails, was, whoops, a guy.)
Another one of my favorite games. Yes ding-dong, Amakusa is gay, or at the very least, a cross dresser. I figured that out the first time I saw him. Go figure.

Nobody inveighs against "liberal game-makers" the way they demonize "liberal Hollywood."
Two words: Bull Crap. Here's just one example:

GTA series.

Can we say "lawsuits?"

While the majority of straight, young-guy gamers in the United States will probably never prefer to play as gay men, they know this is a fantasy world in which anything goes, including sexuality.
How?

How does "anything go?" When was the last time you saw an Everquest Dark Elf do a striptease in a Dark Elf strip club? When was the last time a WoW Orc sang Soft Cell's "Sex Dwarf" to a Dwarven player? When was the last time a Wookiee couple in Star Wars Galaxies humped the bunk and had Wookiee cubs?

Please.

They'll be shocked, surprised, then they'll move on to kill orcs elsewhere. In the world of games, that's tolerance.
In the world of reality, this article is called innacurate.

Catapharact
24-05-06, 17:44
Where to begin...




Two words: Bull Crap. Here's just one example:

GTA series.

Can we say "lawsuits?"

Agreement there Lol! I don't think Rockstar has even been so sort after for suits than any other gaming company.

Punaxe
24-05-06, 17:46
lol, Wolfguard wins thread.

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 17:51
agree with everything you said,especially this part:

You see only what you are trying to look for.

:wve: well said

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 17:54
Thank you, thank you...http://www.werewolf.com/vb/images/smilies/buttrock.gif

Jonnipants
24-05-06, 17:54
Gay marriage in video games is nothing new to me. My gay Sims do much more than get married. :p

MiCkiZ88
24-05-06, 17:56
Gay marriage in video games is nothing new to me. My gay Sims do much more than get married. :p
:vlol: like mine dont :D :vlol:

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 18:05
Agreement there Lol! I don't think Rockstar has even been so sort after for suits than any other gaming company.
Not only are the lawsuits a factor, but you have some policticians (Hilary Clinton being the latest,) who have put forth legislation in which to curb certain "aspects" found in many games. So again, the writer of the article is neglecting to inform the reader of the whole truth. The question one must ask is very simple....






...why?

Laras Backpack
24-05-06, 18:11
lol, Wolfguard wins thread.
WORD! :tmb:

interstellardave
24-05-06, 18:12
A Mature society shouldn't have any problem with representations of gay/straight/other relationships. Not in videogames, movies, books, whatever. "Societal norms" need to be replaced with "individual norms". Then let the market decide--not retailers, politicians or whomever; the end-user him/herself. That's too advanced a view, however, it requires acceptance of personal freedom--and tolerance of everyone elses'.

Melonie Tomb Raider
24-05-06, 18:21
I'll save my opinion. I'm sure everyone here knows it anyway.

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 18:22
I'll save my opinion. I'm sure everyone here knows it anyway.
I don't :cln:

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 18:39
A Mature society shouldn't have any problem with representations of gay/straight/other relationships. Not in videogames, movies, books, whatever. "Societal norms" need to be replaced with "individual norms". Then let the market decide--not retailers, politicians or whomever; the end-user him/herself. That's too advanced a view, however, it requires acceptance of personal freedom--and tolerance of everyone elses'.
And how do you define a "mature society?" Also, why is your definition right and saaaaaaaay an opposing one wrong? If there is complete and 100% tolerance for everything, than that means you cannot perceive an opposing view as intolerable, least you be labeled the same. Furthermore, while a "society" is made up of individuals, there are certain aspects which are a part of maintaining the society, community being one, codes of conduct being another and how to blend the two successfully and considerately.

Should aspects of homosexuality be discussed or taught in a high school class on "Human Sexuality?" Sure, have at it. Should homosexuality be discussed or taught to pre-schoolers and kindergardners? Hell no. Let them be kids and keep sex outta the classroom for the little tikes.

interstellardave
24-05-06, 19:05
And how do you define a "mature society?" Also, why is your definition right and saaaaaaaay an opposing one wrong? If there is complete and 100% tolerance for everything, than that means you cannot perceive an opposing view as intolerable, least you be labeled the same. Furthermore, while a "society" is made up of individuals, there are certain aspects which are a part of maintaining the society, community being one, codes of conduct being another and how to blend the two successfully and considerately.

Should aspects of homosexuality be discussed or taught in a high school class on "Human Sexuality?" Sure, have at it. Should homosexuality be discussed or taught to pre-schoolers and kindergardners? Hell no. Let them be kids and keep sex outta the classroom for the little tikes.

No, nothing need be officially taught--is heterosexuality taught? A mature society by my definition is one in which individuals are all treated equal--in the truest sense of the word. Infringements on an individuals' rights should not be tolerated and don't give me "well I have the right to murder then." You cannot have a "right" which infringes on anothers rights... like life itself. In my view you certainly have the right to think homosexuality is wrong... but you shouldn't have the ability to fashion legislation to enforce your views, or pressure corporations to do things to promote your views. Same with homosexuals in that instance... no "pro homosexual" legislation would be needed... it's an automatically recognized right of the individual.

NO society-enforced "morals"; no corporate enforced, or promoted "morals". Let the individual decide, so long as he or she does not cross the line and infringe on anothers' rights.

Mona Sax
24-05-06, 19:12
I think it's a good idea. Homosexuality is a reality, whether some people like it or not. Incorporating that choice into games only makes them more realistic.

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 19:26
is heterosexuality taught?
In what manner?

A mature society by my definition is one in which individuals are all treated equal--in the truest sense of the word.
But we're not all equal. Some people are smarter or more stupid than others. Some people are fatter or skinnier. Some people are shorter or taller. Some can run fast, while others loose their breath after walking a flight of stairs. Some like sex, while some are repulsed by it. The only way we can all be treated equally is if we are all alike in every aspect. That's called a "utopia," which is pretty much impossible to achieve.

Infringements on an individuals' rights should not be tolerated and don't give me "well I have the right to murder then." You cannot have a "right" which infringes on anothers rights... like life itself.
What do you mean "don't give me that blah blah bla?" Bullcrap. You just killed two birds with one stone - 1st you basically said the example is nill, i.e. YOU set the rules for the discussion and decided what was worthy and unworthy of an opposing view. Where's the equal play for that point of view - oh that's right, you're not tolerating it. Second, your telling me not to bring it into the forray, thus YOU are attempting to control what I say, which in effect infringes on my right to speak my mind. You can't even adhear to what you aspire to achieve.

In my view you certainly have the right to think homosexuality is wrong... but you shouldn't have the ability to fashion legislation to enforce your views, or pressure corporations to do things to promote your views.
Why is the opposite true then?

Same with homosexuals in that instance... no "pro homosexual" legislation would be needed... it's an automatically recognized right of the individual.
So you oppose that California thing which mandates that "gay" history be taught?

NO society-enforced "morals"; no corporate enforced, or promoted "morals". Let the individual decide,
There's a word for that, and it's called anarchy.

so long as he or she does not cross the line and infringe on anothers' rights.
But that's a moral code, i.e. something which you just said you oppose.

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 19:30
I think it's a good idea. Homosexuality is a reality, whether some people like it or not. Incorporating that choice into games only makes them more realistic.
For whom? Why would I want that feature any more than a gay person would want access to a nudity code for a game like Rumble Roses? Furthermore, what other things should be incorporated into a game to make them "more realistic" and to what end?

interstellardave
24-05-06, 19:33
You're confusing morals with "laws". Logically if everyone is acknowledged to have "equal" rights then you cannot claim the "right" to take away someone elses. Some things are logically self-evident, so laws are necessary to protect individuals, but you cannot go too far with it. No one should be able to just punch you in the face, there should be a law about that, BUT if you want to smoke pot, why not? Why are there laws against it? If you smoke pot and don't bother anyone fine; if you punch someone while under the influence of pot--that's the crime, the punching not the pot. And gay history shouldn't need to be taught--there's "history", and that's that. Individual maturity is necessary for this to work, and I realize we aren't there yet. But I suspect you realize this and are just being argumentative by using the lowest common denominator as a basis for your argument.

Mona Sax
24-05-06, 19:33
Wolfguard, liberal laws on homosexuality don't hurt anybody while anti-gay laws do, that's the difference. There's no reason why your sexuality should decide whether or not you're allowed to marry the person you love.
It's okay that "gay history", as you call it, be taught - as I said, gay people have always existed and will always do, it's a fact that shouldn't be oppressed.

It doesn't matter whether you want to be given the choice to play as a homosexual character or not because many people do. You can always choose to play as a straight character anyway.

Catapharact
24-05-06, 19:38
Certain views or certain expects are kept off or censored becuse there is good reason for it. If Zundle was allowed to influence his students under his propaganda, he would have brought out a class full of Holocaust deniers.

What isn't damaging to one culture is acid to another. Its wishful tinking to believe that the world as a whole will accept this.

Mona Sax
24-05-06, 19:41
Certain views or certain expects are kept off or censored becuse there is good reason for it. If Zundle was allowed to influence his students under his propaganda, he would have brought out a class full of Holocaust deniers.

What isn't damaging to one culture is acid to another. Its wishful tinking to believe that the world as a whole will accept this.
Come on, Catapharact.

Holocaust = terrible genocide.
Homosexuality = harmless, personal choice that doesn't hurt anybody else.

I think not even the ****ing Taliban could argue with that. And if it's really a sin, so what? It's our own souls we're messing with.

Catapharact
24-05-06, 19:43
To you and me.

There are those out there that truly believe that the Holocaust is a Myth. Isn't it infringing on their rights to teach the masses about their POV?

Makes you think doesn't it.

BlackGrey
24-05-06, 19:45
I have faced a lot of prejudice because of my homosexuality and to have homosexual content in a popular leading game would make me feel so much more comfortable around my hetrosexual friends when we look at games...

Punaxe
24-05-06, 19:46
I have faced a lot of prejudice because of my homosexuality and to have homosexual content in a popular leading game would make me feel so much more comfortable around my hetrosexual friends when we look at games...
And that's why it'd be a good thing :tmb:

Mona Sax
24-05-06, 19:46
To you and me.

There are those out there that truly believe that the Holocaust is a Myth. Isn't it infringing on their rights to teach the masses about their POV?

Makes you think doesn't it.
I don't mind them doing that. Telling their audience to fight Jews and Christians (or unbelievers in general) is where I draw the line.

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 19:49
You're confusing morals with "laws".
I'm not confusing anything. Laws didn't just get pulled outta thin air. They are based on codes of conduct/morals which people agreed to live by in order to live peacefully/harmoniously within a community. Some moral codes of conduct remained outside the law, however, laws are most certainly based on perceptions of morality.

Logically if everyone is acknowledged to have "equal" rights then you cannot claim the "right" to take away someone elses.
So let's empty the jails then.

Some things are logically self-evident, so laws are necessary to protect individuals, but you cannot go too far with it. No one should be able to just punch you in the face, there should be a law about that, BUT if you want to smoke pot, why not?
Because that pot might cause you to "punch someone in the face," via you driving your car while high and getting in a head-on collision. Because smoking pot damages your brain cells. Because pot is a gateway drug. Please stop with these double standards.

Why are there laws against it? If you smoke pot and don't bother anyone fine; if you punch someone while under the influence of pot--that's the crime, the punching not the pot.
If the drug caused you to loose your cool, or if you decided to drive while under the influence, it most certainly is about the flippin pot. C'mon.


gay history shouldn't need to be taught--there's "history", and that's that.
So you oppose that California thing which mandates that "gay" history be taught?


Individual maturity is necessary for this to work, and I realize we aren't there yet. But I suspect you realize this and are just being argumentative by using the lowest common denominator as a basis for your argument.
If it's so low, then 1. you could easily make individual counterpoints to my statements (which you don't) and 2. you'd have already stopped talking to me (which you haven't.)

I ask questions because I am a thinking entity. I don't give my loyalties blindly nor do I accept every word people try to feed to me. You want an example of a "lowest common denominator," it's someone who follows people blindly and refuses to ask questions which need to be asked.

Mona Sax
24-05-06, 19:53
So you oppose that California thing which mandates that "gay" history be taught?
"Gay history" is a part of history in general. How would you feel if a gay elite decided to cut all heterosexual characters out of history books?

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 20:03
If the drug caused you to loose your cool, or if you decided to drive while under the influence, it most certainly is about the flippin pot. C'mon.

no drug causes you to lose control by itself...it just gives you some extra 'courage' for you to do what you intended to do when you're not high but didn't have the balls to do it ;)

TrojanMan
24-05-06, 20:06
I'm gay and I really don't mind so many straight-based relationships in games and movies. More openly gay stuff is great I suppose, but I really don't care as long as what I'm playing isn't crap.

TrojanMan
24-05-06, 20:08
"Gay history" is a part of history in general. How would you feel if a gay elite decided to cut all heterosexual characters out of history books?

Exactly. It should just be "history." Not homo or hetero history, just history.

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 20:17
Wolfguard, liberal laws on homosexuality don't hurt anybody while anti-gay laws do, that's the difference.
How do "liberal laws" not hurt and how? Have you interviewed every single person on Earth in which to make such a bold and conclusive statement? Some people feel that there is an attack on morality. How is that any less harmless than an "anti-gay" law?

There's no reason why your sexuality should decide whether or not you're allowed to marry the person you love.
I have no problem with the concept of domestic partnership. Go ahead and make that a law. I do believe that marriage however, should be reserved for men and women since that is what it's all about.

It's okay that "gay history", as you call it, be taught - as I said, gay people have always existed and will always do, it's a fact that shouldn't be oppressed.
I don't see it being oppressed, rather being affronted. I think it's more important to learn about a person based on their own merits, as opposed to who they were attracted to. Doing it the other way defeats the purpose, in my opinion.

It doesn't matter whether you want to be given the choice to play as a homosexual character or not because many people do.
Why does my choice "not matter" while someone elses does? Also, how many is "many?"

You can always choose to play as a straight character anyway.
And who says I even make sexuality an issue when I play a game? :rolleyes: Moreover, who says a gay gamer can't pretend their character is gay?

Come on, Catapharact.

Holocaust = terrible genocide.
Homosexuality = harmless, personal choice that doesn't hurt anybody else.

What proof do you have that ANYONE'S personal choice "does no harm" to anyone else?

"Gay history" is a part of history in general. How would you feel if a gay elite decided to cut all heterosexual characters out of history books?

I don't usually delve into the sexual aspect of historical figures since I care more about what they did, as opposed to who they were doing.

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 20:18
no drug causes you to lose control by itself...it just gives you some extra 'courage' for you to do what you intended to do when you're not high but didn't have the balls to do it ;)
I don't believe that. Take alcohol for example; driving drunk gives you the courage to get in a wreck?

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 20:20
I'm gay and I really don't mind so many straight-based relationships in games and movies. More openly gay stuff is great I suppose, but I really don't care as long as what I'm playing isn't crap.
Exactly...although I do mind when some of these forms of entertainment go overboard with the relationship aspects. I'm weird like that...

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 20:20
I don't believe that. Take alcohol for example; driving drunk gives you the courage to get in a wreck?
trust me, I have firsthand experience :o :p

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 20:22
trust me, I have firsthand experience :o :p
What...you wanted to get in a wreck?

Voni
24-05-06, 20:28
First of all, I'd like to mention that I'm bisexual, so my opinion is sort of on the other side of the fence.

It's all very well and good making a big deal out of gay relationships in games, but no one will accept it as 'normal' if we all keep shouting about it, are we? And like it's been pointed out, gay characters have been in the Sims ever since it started. So it's very nice but I'm not really fussed if I play a heterosexual/homosexual/bi/whatever, it's not really going to change my experience. The whole idea of gaming is to get involved in a total fantasy world, right?

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 20:28
What...you wanted to get in a wreck?
no I'm not talking about wrecks,I'm talking about alcohol :p

Mona Sax
24-05-06, 20:57
How do "liberal laws" not hurt and how? Have you interviewed every single person on Earth in which to make such a bold and conclusive statement? Some people feel that there is an attack on morality. How is that any less harmless than an "anti-gay" law?
Anti-gay laws constrict people in their freedom, liberal laws don't. Morality is subjective, so just because some people think homosexuality is wrong doesn't mean that it is. If you don't like seeing two men or women kiss, you can just look the other way, but you certainly don't have any right to tell them what they can and cannot do - otherwise they'd have the right to do the same to you.

I have no problem with the concept of domestic partnership. Go ahead and make that a law. I do believe that marriage however, should be reserved for men and women since that is what it's all about.
It is? You live in a secular democracy, which means that the majority defines what marriage is about. Your definition is the church's, but we're talking about civil, not ecclesiastic marriages.

I don't see it being oppressed, rather being affronted. I think it's more important to learn about a person based on their own merits, as opposed to who they were attracted to. Doing it the other way defeats the purpose, in my opinion.
I agree. However, if a historical character's sexuality had an impact on his life (because he/she was pursued for it, for example), it shouldn't be kept a secret.

Why does my choice "not matter" while someone elses does? Also, how many is "many?"
Because your choice means that only people who think like you get what they want. If people can choose their character's sexuality, everybody's happy. You're still free to choose a heterosexual male, if you want to.

And who says I even make sexuality an issue when I play a game? :rolleyes: Moreover, who says a gay gamer can't pretend their character is gay?
Kinda hard when the prince's trying to seduce the princess. ;)

What proof do you have that ANYONE'S personal choice "does no harm" to anyone else?
Let's say you have sex with your girlfriend. Am I hurt? Do I care? No. Why should it be any different for you when I have sex with another woman? Anyway, ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? Why don't you prove that homosexuality is harmful? That would be really interesting.

I don't usually delve into the sexual aspect of historical figures since I care more about what they did, as opposed to who they were doing.
Me too. Same goes for heterosexual historical characters, by the way.

xMiSsCrOfTx
24-05-06, 21:01
Doesn't make a difference to me. I don't see why it should be that big of a deal, it's only videogames.

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 21:04
Doesn't make a difference to me. I don't see why it should be that big of a deal, it's only videogames.
fiiiiiiiiinally...someone who speaks some sense in here :)

interstellardave
24-05-06, 21:28
Wulfgard: you like to argue everyone point for point, apparently. My intention was not to lay out an entire society in detail... rather to state a standard that one may which to achieve. One in which we all enjoy more personal freedoms than we now do... one in which there is less governmental controls rather than more; less control over individual activities rather than more. I'm talking about consensual activities or activities without victims... where victimization occurs you need law enforcement to step in, and yes, laws are based on morality--general accepted morality that serves the populace as a whole. Who wants everyone to be able to go around assaulting each other at will? No rational person--and that's the key. I started off just making a general statement; I have no desire to argue every permutation with you. You make good points; some of which I agree with, but then again I never said my initial post was the be-all-and-end-all, did I? :wve:

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 21:36
Wulfgard: you like to argue everyone point for point, apparently. My intention was not to lay out an entire society in detail... rather to state a standard that one may which to achieve. One in which we all enjoy more personal freedoms than we now do... one in which there is less governmental controls rather than more; less control over individual activities rather than more. I'm talking about consensual activities or activities without victims... where victimization occurs you need law enforcement to step in, and yes, laws are based on morality--general accepted morality that serves the populace as a whole. Who wants everyone to be able to go around assaulting each other at will? No rational person--and that's the key. I started off just making a general statement; I have no desire to argue every permutation with you. You make good points; some of which I agree with, but then again I never said my initial post was the be-all-and-end-all, did I? :wve:

good point...we're over-analyzing this..some people are forgetting it's a video game we're talking about here :p

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 21:48
Anti-gay laws constrict people in their freedom, liberal laws don't. Morality is subjective...
If it is subjective, then I don't have to perscribe to your version of what you think is constrictive or not.

just because some people think homosexuality is wrong doesn't mean that it is.
And just because you think it is right doesn't mean that it is.

If you don't like seeing two men or women kiss, you can just look the other way, but you certainly don't have any right to tell them what they can and cannot do - otherwise they'd have the right to do the same to you.

They have a right to act and feel the way they want but not me? You have a double standard as well. I don't. Personally, I don't like to see anyone kissing in front of me. If you can't keep your hands off your significant other, then get a room.

It is? You live in a secular democracy, which means that the majority defines what marriage is about. Your definition is the church's, but we're talking about civil, not ecclesiastic marriages.
And speaking of democracy, the majority still feel marriage is between men and women. At the same time, many people could care less if a homosexual couple wants to hook up. In either case, the term marriage applies to a male and female agreement in regards to a personal and financial agreement between a man and a woman. A domestic partnership refers to a gay or lesbian couple's personal and financial agreements (to which I said I had no problem with.) Marriage and domestic partnership may be similar in intent, but they describe two different things in regards to the players.

if a historical character's sexuality had an impact on his life (because he/she was pursued for it, for example), it shouldn't be kept a secret.
Agreed. If something is true, then of course the truth should be known.

Because your choice means that only people who think like you get what they want.
But you being able to get what you want at the cost of my feelings is OK? BTW - please clarify what "people who think like me" actually do think and feel.

You're still free to choose a heterosexual male, if you want to.
Is that freedom? I didn't choose to be a heterosexual. Maybe I consider my attraction to women to be an annoyance.

Kinda hard when the prince's trying to seduce the princess.
Don't play those games then. I sure do my best to avoid them. I care about mecha, or solo stories, or adventures. I'll give you an example of a game I like that has elements I despise: GTA: San Andreas. I love that game...except the "hot coffee"/screwing parts. The game didn't need that element, and I feel it's an unnecessary distraction, thus I avoid those aspects of it.

Let's say you have sex with your girlfriend. Am I hurt? Do I care? No.
Yeah,but you aren't the only person in the world, nor are you involved with who I'm screwing. Maybe she was a virgin and I decided later that she wasn't for me? What if she runs home and tells her mom that she's been de-flowered and that information breaks her heart? What if her dad wants to kill me because of it? Whatif she isn't a virgin and ends up passing me an STD? What if she ends up pregnant etc. etc?

Yes, my personal choices effect me; they can also effect everyone around me.

Why should it be any different for you when I have sex with another woman?
Hey, knock yourself out. You can do anything you want in the privacy of your own home, car, what have ya. If you tell me about it or ask my opinion about it, that's your choice as well, but by involving me in an aspect of your personal life, you open yourself up to my opinion. If you don't want to hear my opinion, then don't ask me for it. And to add to that, just because I feel a certain way about something doesn't make me a "phobic," nor does it mean I can't otherwise get along with a person due to a disagreement.

Anyway, ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? Why don't you prove that homosexuality is harmful? That would be really interesting.

If it's on par/equal/no different than heterosexuality and the problems related to that as is claimed, then yes, there is harm which is done in some way shapeor form. If Homosexuality does absolutely no harm in any way, shape, or form, then it would ineed be extremely different than any other human sexual practice.

Me too. Same goes for heterosexual historical characters, by the way.
I assumed that after reading "Me too." ;)

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 21:49
Wulfgard: you like to argue everyone point for point, appar-
DUDE - you spelled my name wrong! :p

Tombreaper
24-05-06, 21:49
:confused: :confused: :)

interstellardave
24-05-06, 21:52
DUDE - you spelled my name wrong! :p

LOL! Yes, I did... I know a guy who goes by that name--and that spelling--so I guess it was an easy mistake for me to make. :o

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 21:57
LOL! Yes, I did... I know a guy who goes by that name--and that spelling--so I guess it was an easy mistake for me to make. :o
But is he a real "wolf guardian" or is he a "Wulfgard" in name only? ;)

Melonie Tomb Raider
24-05-06, 22:04
Interesting posts you've made throughout the topic Wolfguard. Makes a lot of sense. :)

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 22:06
Interesting posts you've made throughout the topic Wolfguard. Makes a lot of sense. :)
Thank you.

Catapharact
24-05-06, 22:07
good point...we're over-analyzing this..some people are forgetting it's a video game we're talking about here :p

You also need to realize that videogames are more and more becomming the medium of choice. From fashion to idelas; A lot has been infulenced ny this particulaar media. Those who are responsible with it shouldn't have much problem. Those who aren't need to be kept in check.

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 22:10
You also need to realize that videogames are more and more becomming the medium of choice. From fashion to idelas; A lot has been infulenced ny this particulaar media. Those who are responsible with it shouldn't have much problem. Those who aren't need to be kept in check.
Yup. I think the fact that so many "actors" are choosing to voice game characters proves this statement to be true.

Joseph
24-05-06, 22:11
A videogame about marriage? What's so interesting about it? I haven't played any marriage videogame. What's the fun? :confused:

Catapharact
24-05-06, 22:13
A videogame about marriage? What's so interesting about it? I haven't played any marriage videogame. What's the fun? :confused:

LMAO! Count on Joseph to lighten the mood.

Wolfguard
24-05-06, 22:13
A videogame about marriage? What's so interesting about it? I haven't played any marriage videogame. What's the fun? :confused:
To start off, you cary a big ball and chain as your primary weapon. Unfortunately, it weighs so much, your character is unable to move...

Melonie Tomb Raider
24-05-06, 22:14
A videogame about marriage? What's so interesting about it? I haven't played any marriage videogame. What's the fun? :confused:

Well I'm sure it's just a story behind it. I didn't read the whole article, so I'm not sure.

Similar to a game like Final Fantasy X. Yuna and Tidus fall in love and it adds a lot to the story. I thought it was very touching.

This other game could be doing something similar, just with gay people. It's personally not my cup of tea, and I won't be playing the game, but if other people want to then go ahead and enjoy it. I have no right to tell you what to play and what what to play.

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 22:15
You also need to realize that videogames are more and more becomming the medium of choice. From fashion to idelas; A lot has been infulenced ny this particulaar media. Those who are responsible with it shouldn't have much problem. Those who aren't need to be kept in check.

so what you're basicly saying is that the game developers are trying to communicate their own belief system through their video games?

Catapharact
24-05-06, 22:17
so what you're basicly saying is that the game developers are trying to communicate their own belief system through their video games?

Like directors and script writers, games find theirorigins thought personal senerios. I can tellyou a whole lot on the developer and the scriptwriter of POP: Warrior With in... Buttt... I'll leave that for another day.

Melonie Tomb Raider
24-05-06, 22:18
Like directors and script writers, games find theirorigins thought personal senerios. I can tellyou a whole lot on the developer and the scriptwriter of POP: Warrior With in... Buttt... I'll leave that for another day.

Ooohh! I want to hear!! :D

CerebralAssassin
24-05-06, 22:23
Like directors and script writers, games find theirorigins thought personal senerios. I can tellyou a whole lot on the developer and the scriptwriter of POP: Warrior With in... Buttt... I'll leave that for another day.
ha! never played that game..so I wouldn't understand a damn thing you say :tea:

Catapharact
24-05-06, 22:25
Ooohh! I want to hear!! :D

Lol! Lets just say the man fits the part of a person who would create something full of hard metal Music and a Grungy prince Lol!

Will put details in PM if you want.

Joseph
24-05-06, 22:28
To start off, you cary a big ball and chain as your primary weapon. Unfortunately, it weighs so much, your character is unable to move...:vlol: Ohhh!!! RoFLMAO! I might try it! :D

Night_Heaven
24-05-06, 22:41
There is a game with gay people? Really?

illuminati30
24-05-06, 23:16
Offtopic (again.):

The point is simple. People may wanna draw their conculsions on you but you have your right to put your POV through. Seems like anyone here who may not agree with the masses gets the "Troll" lable. Its down right irritating. Not everyone is gonna agree with the topic in hand. Get used to it.

Catapharact i fear you are loosing it, nobody attacked you or tried to come to any conclusions about your feelings.

You make this same argument again and again, and nobody even attacted you, well up to this point anyway, i have been away!

LegenDarY
25-05-06, 01:16
I don't agree with wolfguard and i'm not even gay, he is not making any sense at all.. but Mona Sax on the other hand, is making very much sense..

i think people who are against homosexuality are overexaggerating everything.. just let those people live their lifes like anyone else.. they're born like that.. it wasn't their choice.. and they're no different than straight human beings, so why should they be treated any differently?

and why on earth does it matter to make a game where you can CHOOSE for the characters to be gay/straight/bi or whatever.. if you don't like to play a gay character, than simply choose not to

and Cat: you said you don't agree with homosexuality.. that's the weirdest thing i've heard so far.. cause what on earth is there to agree with? they were born that way.. just like you were born straight.. so what's there to agree with?

CerebralAssassin
25-05-06, 01:20
I don't agree with wolfguard and i'm not even gay, he is not making any sense at all.. but Mona Sax on the other hand, is making very much sense..

i think people who are against homosexuality are overexaggerating everything.. just let those people live their lifes like anyone else.. they're born like that.. it wasn't their choice.. and they're no different than straight human beings, so why should they be treated any differently?

and why on earth does it matter to make a game where you can CHOOSE for the characters to be gay/straight/bi or whatever.. if you don't like to play a gay character, than simply choose not to

and Cat: you said you don't agree with homosexuality.. that's the weirdest thing i've heard so far.. cause what on earth is there to agree with? they were born that way.. just like you were born straight.. so what's there to agree with?

well said :tmb:

xMiSsCrOfTx
25-05-06, 01:22
and why on earth does it matter to make a game where you can CHOOSE for the characters to be gay/straight/bi or whatever.. if you don't like to play a gay character, than simply choose not to

I think by adding this into games make them more realistic. People are either gay or they're not, and that's life. I think people are just too close-minded these days.

illuminati30
25-05-06, 01:26
I think people are just too close-minded these days.

Actually I think its getting better all the time. This kind of thing shows that it is being more accepted. Most people will have no problem with this at all. You will always get the odd one who does, and they are the ones who will shout about it.

Spitfire
25-05-06, 02:12
Actually I think its getting better all the time. This kind of thing shows that it is being more accepted. Most people will have no problem with this at all. You will always get the odd one who does, and they are the ones who will shout about it.

I agree with you completely, I know alot of people had really weird thhoughts toward "Fear Factor" a game in which the main character was a lesbian. While im sure it was used as a marketing gimmick to attract the young male gamers but actually attracted alot of criticism and opinions on gay game characters. Now adays its ok to see a gay character, it's really no big deal. Games like the Sims give you the option willingly which is nice, its considerate of all gamers.

Gaming should be for everyone, whether it has a gay or straight characters or bisexual i really couldn't care less as long as that game has a great story and great gameplay.

oocladableeblah
25-05-06, 02:24
personally i dont care if there is gay stuff in games, as long as games stay good im fine with it.

Wolfguard
25-05-06, 03:00
I don't agree with wolfguard and i'm not even gay...
Ok, what don't you agree with?

i think people who are against homosexuality are overexaggerating everything..
And they are the only one's capable of such behavior? C'mon now.

just let those people live their lifes like anyone else...
Everyone follows some form of conduct in regards to social interaction. For instance, I shouldn't walk into a Mosque or a Sikh temple wearing shoes. By your logic, would you suggest that it is OK for me to do that? If I did, do they then have a right to tell me otherwise?

they're born like that.. it wasn't their choice..
Everyone has a choice in regards to their actions. I'm attracted to women. I was "born like that," but if I acted on my heterosexually driven impulses in the past, I'd have a number of kids as well as some STDs. Moreover, while I do believe a number of homosexuals are indeed "born like that," I don't believe every single person who engages in homosexual behavior is in fact a homosexual. It's true for heteros, beastophiles, swingers, etc. People do make choices in regards to how they act on their feelings.

and they're no different than straight human beings, so why should they be treated any differently?
That is an oxymoron. If homosexuals were no different than "straight" people, they would be "straight." That said, there are differences, thus I am expected to treat them differently than I would otherwise. In other words, if you want me to accept you as a person, then be a person. If you want me to accept you as being homosexual, then that's fine. If you want me to accept you for your homosexual activity, then I'm going to take issue with 1.your priorities (what's more important, your humanity or your sexuality?) and 2. your choosing to involve me in your personal stuff.

If that last part doesn't make any sense, then think about how a homosexual feels when they see/hear about someone of the opposite sex. If gay Jonny doesn't feel comfortable hearing straight Larry talk about his sexcapades with his girl Candy, then what makes gay Jonny think that straight Wolfguard wants to hear about his with his boy Sam. Hell, Wolfguard thinks straight Larry is a male slut and his girl Candy is a walking STD depository!

why on earth does it matter to make a game where you can CHOOSE for the characters to be gay/straight/bi or whatever.. if you don't like to play a gay character, than simply choose not to
I don't even think there is an option to be straight in most games! Pretend your character is whatever you want. No one is stopping you.

you said you don't agree with homosexuality.. that's the weirdest thing i've heard so far.. cause what on earth is there to agree with?
Maybe "cat" ment the "acts of," as opposed to the state of being.

Wolfguard
25-05-06, 03:04
I think by adding this into games make them more realistic. People are either gay or they're not, and that's life. I think people are just too close-minded these days.
So I'm close-minded if I don't care to see aspects of any/other sexual preferences? Maybe I just don't want to see it because I've seen enough already. Moreover, your claim of close-mindedness towards other people's feelings is hypocrasy since your description of such is an aspect of close-mindedness on your part.

Mona Sax
25-05-06, 09:50
If it is subjective, then I don't have to perscribe to your version of what you think is constrictive or not.

You're right, you don't. However, it would be nice to see you explain how laws that don't don't allow a certain part of mankind to marry their significant other are not constrictive.

And just because you think it is right doesn't mean that it is.
Yup. It's just my opinion. We could have the same argument about heterosexuality, by the way. Why should it be any more "moral"?

They have a right to act and feel the way they want but not me? You have a double standard as well. I don't. Personally, I don't like to see anyone kissing in front of me. If you can't keep your hands off your significant other, then get a room.
It's about appreciation of values. I respect your wish not to see people kissing in front of you, but you also have to respect their right to show their affection wherever they are without being harassed by a morality police. I'm sorry, but I think the violation of your rights is less grave.

And speaking of democracy, the majority still feel marriage is between men and women. At the same time, many people could care less if a homosexual couple wants to hook up. In either case, the term marriage applies to a male and female agreement in regards to a personal and financial agreement between a man and a woman. A domestic partnership refers to a gay or lesbian couple's personal and financial agreements (to which I said I had no problem with.) Marriage and domestic partnership may be similar in intent, but they describe two different things in regards to the players.
Again, it's neither you nor me who decides what marriage is, it's the majority. If the citizens of California define marriage as a personal and financial agreement between two people, regardless of their gender, then that's what it is.

But you being able to get what you want at the cost of my feelings is OK? BTW - please clarify what "people who think like me" actually do think and feel.
I just don't see how me being able to choose to play as a gay videogame character could possibly hurt your feelings.
"People who think like you": people who don't want players to have that choice.

Is that freedom? I didn't choose to be a heterosexual. Maybe I consider my attraction to women to be an annoyance.
Maybe. If you're not comfortable with your sexuality, that's your problem. Freedom is to be able to choose to live the life you want while respecting other people's freedom. I don't tell you who you can marry either, so please do me the same favor. Deciding on my private life is not part of your freedom, even more, it's none of your business.

Don't play those games then. I sure do my best to avoid them. I care about mecha, or solo stories, or adventures. I'll give you an example of a game I like that has elements I despise: GTA: San Andreas. I love that game...except the "hot coffee"/screwing parts. The game didn't need that element, and I feel it's an unnecessary distraction, thus I avoid those aspects of it.
I don't mind playing as straight characters. However, it would be nice to play a game as a gay character once in a while. Let's say, in 5% of all games? :p

Yeah,but you aren't the only person in the world, nor are you involved with who I'm screwing. Maybe she was a virgin and I decided later that she wasn't for me? What if she runs home and tells her mom that she's been de-flowered and that information breaks her heart? What if her dad wants to kill me because of it? Whatif she isn't a virgin and ends up passing me an STD? What if she ends up pregnant etc. etc?
Your point being? This would be sad, but it could happen in both straight and gay relationships.

Hey, knock yourself out. You can do anything you want in the privacy of your own home, car, what have ya. If you tell me about it or ask my opinion about it, that's your choice as well, but by involving me in an aspect of your personal life, you open yourself up to my opinion. If you don't want to hear my opinion, then don't ask me for it. And to add to that, just because I feel a certain way about something doesn't make me a "phobic," nor does it mean I can't otherwise get along with a person due to a disagreement.
Nobody's involving you in their private life. If you re-read my posts, you'll see that I didn't even mention my own sexuality.

If it's on par/equal/no different than heterosexuality and the problems related to that as is claimed, then yes, there is harm which is done in some way shapeor form. If Homosexuality does absolutely no harm in any way, shape, or form, then it would ineed be extremely different than any other human sexual practice.
You know that's not what I was saying. My point was that homosexuality is not harmful in relation to heterosexuality.

CerebralAssassin
25-05-06, 10:02
Everyone follows some form of conduct in regards to social interaction. For instance, I shouldn't walk into a Mosque or a Sikh temple wearing shoes. By your logic, would you suggest that it is OK for me to do that? If I did, do they then have a right to tell me otherwise?

and by this logic..you're saying that gays should keep their sexual relations out of the publics' sight,or you're saying that gay relations shouldn't be allowed altogether?I'm confused...


I don't believe every single person who engages in homosexual behavior is in fact a homosexual.

elaborate on this.please.

Spitfire
25-05-06, 13:01
maybe he means...um i dont know what he means for the first quote, it does sound like he's suggesting keeping the gay relations ships tamed and kept up secret relationships?

Second quote, i think he means that some people experiement i guess or participate in "Mutual" activitites...for this I believe the term Bisexual comes into view but thats just my opinion.

Baslakor
25-05-06, 13:23
Everything is possible in the magcal world of games.

I've seen a half-orc fighter fall in love with a little elf, giving him an identity crisis... Bursting down a room to see two male characers kiss is something else then two ugly golbins with pointless spears ;)

Making trouble of an extral sexual choice in games is quite stupid. Those worlds are endless so if you can't respect that, there are more then enough dungeons who have kobolds instead of gays...

Night_Heaven
25-05-06, 13:47
Someone can bee gay if they have a girlfriend and a boyfriend too?:confused: Just asking...for a friend:)

illuminati30
25-05-06, 13:49
What I want to know is are we talking about sex or love?

Love in games seems to be fine, but sex tends to be frowned upon. I can understand someone being upset about having sexual content inflicted upon them when they don’t choose to see it, but if it is love and relationships, and things you see in public, and film and TV such is kissing, and holding hands, then why is it ok to see straight people do this and not gay?

I think this is a good thing, as it helps people to understand that gay relationships are no different.

If someone has an idea for a game and the plot involves a man falling in love with another man, or a woman falling in love with another women then fine. Should this writer think again, and change every thing just to conform? No way! We would think nothing of it on TV, or in film, or in book. Why should a game be any different?

This kind if thing is such a regular occurrence in film, TV and books today, that nobody seems to have a problem with it, and the people who do, well they are the one with the problem that they should try and resolve. These people are in the minority in western culture.

rika2
25-05-06, 13:57
You just have to get used to it, imagine "Brokeback Mountain - The Game" :D

illuminati30
25-05-06, 13:57
Someone can bee gay if they have a girlfriend and a boyfriend too?:confused: Just asking...for a friend:)

Sounds like Bisexual to me. I just hope this person's partners know about each other.

Its because homosexuality is frowned about, as if it is something to be kept hidden that people feel they have to live a life of lies, or a double life.

I dont know how many times in gay bars i have been hit on by married men, or men with girl friends. Some people go through life afraid to admit they are gay, and will remain in a straight relationship just to conform to society. To them i say 'get some balls'. People dont understand the damage this does, they really dont. This is the reason why so many people feel gay men choose their sexuality, and to engage in sexual acts because it is easy and there. No! Its because they are living a lie.

I have too much respect for women, and for myself to live this way.

Nephili
25-05-06, 16:03
Its because homosexuality is frowned about, as if it is something to be kept hidden that people feel they have to live a life of lies, or a double life.

Before i came out as Gay, i hated the fact that i had to lie to everyone, about what i was doing, where i was going etc. Its horrible.

But this whole thing about it coming to games, ill have to agree with some other people who have posted here. I dont really care as long as what im playing is a good game.

If they decided to make Lara a Lesbian and she hooked up with Amanda and they got married, i would still play the game, because its Tomb Raider, and it is a great game.

illuminati30
25-05-06, 16:25
Before i came out as Gay, i hated the fact that i had to lie to everyone, about what i was doing, where i was going etc. Its horrible.



And i say well done to you for doing that, That takes balls, and some people will never do that. Instead choose to live a double life just to conform to society. Its very sad indeed.

Gay people have to be encouraged to be in relationships and to express their love how they choose to see fit, rather than hide away. The alternative is a life of lies, married to a woman or man who will never feel properly loved of fulfilled. No woman or man deserves this.

Quite often people bring religion into this subject. You can have:

a gay man or woman who is open about their sexuality who is in a loving relationship,

or

you can have a gay man or woman who will hide it and suppress it and live a life of lies which is unfair on them, their friends, the partner and everyone around them, and yes even their children.

Which of the two gets into the kingdom of heaven, if thats what you believe in?

Nephili
25-05-06, 19:45
And i say well done to you for doing that, That takes balls, and some people will never do that. Instead choose to live a double life just to conform to society. Its very sad indeed.

Thanks alot :) Although, i only really came out to my family, which took me ages to do. My "best friend" who i told in secrecy and trust, told all my friends and everything i had told her. But its cool now, everyone is ok with it, which is good. But it is a hard thing to do, i dont know if its the same for all gay and bisexual people, but i always played on the negative side of coming out, thinking of the worst possible scenario, which made me a bit scared to do it.

illuminati30
25-05-06, 20:06
Thanks alot :) Although, i only really came out to my family, which took me ages to do. My "best friend" who i told in secrecy and trust, told all my friends and everything i had told her. But its cool now, everyone is ok with it, which is good. But it is a hard thing to do, i dont know if its the same for all gay and bisexual people, but i always played on the negative side of coming out, thinking of the worst possible scenario, which made me a bit scared to do it.

Thats good! :tmb: You are only 18 and took a big step already.

I have heard this story about your friend before. I sometimes wonder if she reacted the way she did because maybe she liked you more than you think. Maybe not though.

I think bisexual is a hard one to come out and say and especially hard for parents to hear, as in saying it, they will still hope that one day you might end up with a girl.

Nephili
25-05-06, 21:37
Thats good! :tmb: You are only 18 and took a big step already.

I have heard this story about your friend before. I sometimes wonder if she reacted the way she did because maybe she liked you more than you think. Maybe not though.

I think bisexual is a hard one to come out and say and especially hard for parents to hear, as in saying it, they will still hope that one day you might end up with a girl.

She said she told people because she was worried about me, about what i was doing, which she should have come to me about in my opinion. But she told them every single detail, like a guy i was seeing, she told everyone his name, what car he had, how old he was, what pub we had been, and other details.

But the thing that annoyed me most, was that the first person she went to was my worst enemy which was her boyfriend at the time, i mean what a person tell, but oh well, its in the past and i need to get back on topic!

Wolfguard
26-05-06, 00:48
You're right, you don't. However, it would be nice to see you explain how laws that don't don't allow a certain part of mankind to marry their significant other are not constrictive.
1. Direct me to the specific laws.
2. I know some have been eliminated, one in particular (sodomy,) thus there is no legal "constriction" under that unless done in public (as is hetero sex.)
3. I already said I have no problem with the creation of and legalizing benefits for domestic partnerships.

Yup. It's just my opinion. We could have the same argument about heterosexuality, by the way.
First of all, no, the argument can't go the other way in regards to arguing that heterosexuality is not the right way. The science behind sexual reproduction from insects to mammals flies in the face of that. Unless you are an aphid, or a lone amphibian female, sexual reproduction occurs between males and females, i.e. the primary purpose of sexual reproduction is to reproduce. The purpose of sexual attraction is to incite the feeling of a "need" to copulate.

Why should it be any more "moral"?
In terms of science, there is no morality in regards to seeking the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Our culture bestowed different types of morality in order to maintain social harmony. For example, the ancient Jewish laws against homosexuality were ment to protect young boys from older men in the society. In my case, I view things from a scientific perspective in order to gage my morality. Heterosexual sex has its own dark side, and it's seen in gross excess, bondage, nymphomania, gang bangs, pedophilia, rape, etc. None of those acts have to do with reproduction - they are geared towards feelings without the intent to reproduce, or in the case of nymphos, it's an imbalance.

It's about appreciation of values. I respect your wish not to see people kissing in front of you, but you also have to respect their right to show their affection wherever they are without being harassed by a morality police. I'm sorry, but I think the violation of your rights is less grave.
This where we are getting close to some common ground again, i.e. some mutual respect for differences. I do understand your point. Overall, I would prefer there was a complete lack of PDAs. Moreover, I think it would be fair for everyone since it does not single out any particular group.

...it's neither you nor me who decides what marriage is, it's the majority.If the citizens of California define marriage as a personal and financial agreement between two people, regardless of their gender, then that's what it is.
The majority on Planet California do not always get what they vote for, as demonstrated by prop 187 which was passed by the majority and overturned by the lawyers/special interest groups who opposed it. The State always does things without consent of the majority.

I just don't see how me being able to choose to play as a gay videogame character could possibly hurt your feelings.
I don't see it as necessary. Tell me which game I have where I can "choose" to play as straight character? Maybe I want something something more along my personal interests - a character who does not date and prefers the company of his canine friends. Oh,you know what, if I really want to, I can pretend that's the case anyway.

"People who think like you": people who don't want players to have that choice.
Where did I say you can't make that choice when playing? Quote me and we'll go from there.

If you're not comfortable with your sexuality, that's your problem.
It has nothing to do with being "comfortable" or "uncomfortable." I like women, but overall, I consider human sexuality to be an annoyance. It permiates into everything, be it work, TV, movies, games and this conversation. Illuminati mentioned the term "mature society." My version of that is people's ability to keep theirr junk in the trunk and be people first, instead of a society of sex-obsessed maniacs who feeeeel the neeeeed to perscribe sex into every aspect of life.

The article which this thread is based on speaks volumes to that, because it assigns sexual inuendos to things which are not, and in my opinion, hurts your cause more than it helps since it attempts to turn an otherwise neutral thing into something gay. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and flies like a duck, then by all means, call it a duck. If it walks like an elephant, barks like a dog, and runs like a cheetah, don't bloody tell me it's a duck.


Freedom is to be able to choose to live the life you want while respecting other people's freedom.
And who is preventing you from doing that right now?

I don't tell you who you can marry either, so please do me the same favor.
Quote me. Where did I say you couldn't be with whomever you wanted?

Deciding on my private life is not part of your freedom,
Quote me. Where did I claim it was "part of my freedom?"

even more, it's none of your business.
I'm sorry, but any time you tell people about or display aspects of your personal life, you do open yourself up to other people's opinions. That's not because your homosexual, it's because you are telling other people about your private life or doing something in puiblic.

If I tell you "I prefer being around canines rather than humans," I'm opening myself up to your personal opinions. If I don't want to hear your opinion on the matter, then it's up to me to keep it to myself. If I feeeel the neeeed to tell you, it's based on a desire to seek approval, in this case from another human. That would be my choice, thus my responsability to accept the consequences of that decision. Of course, other people's approval is neither required nor desired in order for me to prefer the company of canines.

I don't mind playing as straight characters. However, it would be nice to play a game as a gay character once in a while. Let's say, in 5% of all games?
The Sims has expansion packs. :p

Look, I understand what you are saying. If someone wants to design a game with gay characters for gay players, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is when the game designers make sexuality the main focus of the game when it is otherwise unnecessary. I'll give you three examples where you have your own personal choice:

Champions of Norrath: You can choose the gender and appearance of the main character. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.

Ace Combat. You don't even see the pilot you play.

Star Wars: Battlefront. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.


An example of sexuality being a factor in a game is San Andreas. Dating in order to achive special bonuses? Please. Gimmie real challenges, not pillow-talk. I don't like those aspects of the game, so I avoid them. Of course, Rockstar is under no obligation to cater to my sexual desires or lack there of. Fine, they put dating in the game. If I reeeeeeally despised it, I'd make no plans to buy any further GTA games. Fortunately, there are many other things to do in the game world, so I pretend the "girlfriends" don't exist, and move on.

Your point being? This would be sad, but it could happen in both straight and gay relationships.
Exactly, and my point was that everyone's personal choices can do harm, whether it's intended or not. To say otherwise is disingenuous.


Nobody's involving you in their private life. If you re-read my posts, you'll see that I didn't even mention my own sexuality.
I could have sworn you said you had a girlfriend. Well, whatever. Anyhow, when someone starts talking about their significant other, they are involving you in their private lives. I know so many girls who talk about the guy they are going out with as if that is the only aspect of their lives. I don't want to hear it, especially from the ones who complain about how their "other half" is this-that-the other, blah blah blah - good God, why do they want to tell me?

^ That's what I'm talking about.


My point was that homosexuality is not harmful in relation to heterosexuality.
Ok, I'll take a neutral stance on this statement and ask if you can please elaborate.

stereopathic
26-05-06, 00:52
3. I already said I have no problem with the creation of and legalizing benefits for domestic partnerships.
seperate but equal. that sounds familiar.

CerebralAssassin
26-05-06, 00:53
1. Direct me to the specific laws.
2. I know some have been eliminated, one in particular (sodomy,) thus there is no legal "constriction" under that unless done in public (as is hetero sex.)
3. I already said I have no problem with the creation of and legalizing benefits for domestic partnerships.


First of all, no, the argument can't go the other way in regards to arguing that heterosexuality is not the right way. The science behind sexual reproduction from insects to mammals flies in the face of that. Unless you are an aphid, or a lone amphibian female, sexual reproduction occurs between males and females, i.e. the primary purpose of sexual reproduction is to reproduce. The purpose of sexual attraction is to incite the feeling of a "need" to copulate.


In terms of science, there is no morality in regards to seeking the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Our culture bestowed different types of morality in order to maintain social harmony. For example, the ancient Jewish laws against homosexuality were ment to protect young boys from olderman in the society. In my case, I view things from a scientific perspective in order to gage my morality. Heterosexual sex has its own dark side, and it's seen in gross excess, bondage, nymphomania, gang bangs, pedophilia, rape, etc. None of those acts have to do with reproduction - they are geared towards feelings without the intent to reproduce, or in the case of nymphos, it's an imbalance.


This where we are getting close to some common ground again, i.e. some mutual respect for differences. I do understand your point. Overall, I would prefer there was a complete lack of PDAs. Moreover, I think it would be fair for everyone since it does not single out any particular group.


The majority on Planet California do not always get what they vote for, as demonstrated by prop 187 which was passed by the majority and overturned by the lawyers/special interest groups who opposed it. The State always does things without consent of the majority.


I don't see it as necessary. Tell me which game I have where I can "choose" to play as straight character? Maybe I want something something more along my personal interests - a character who does not date and prefers the company of his canine friends. Oh,you know what, if I really want to, I can pretend that's the case anyway.


Where did I say you can't make that choice when playing? Quote me and we'll go from there.


It has nothing to do with being "comfortable" or "uncomfortable." I like women, but overall, I consider human sexuality to be an annoyance. It permiates into everything, be it work, TV, movies, games and this conversation. Illuminati mentioned the term "mature society." My version of that is people's ability to keep theirr junk in the trunk and be people first, instead of a society of sex-obsessed maniacs who feeeeel the neeeeed to perscribe sex into every aspect of life.

The article which this thread is based on speaks volumes to that, because it assigns sexual inuendos to things which are not, and in my opinion, hurts your cause more than it helps since it attempts to turn an otherwise neutral thing into something gay. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and flies like a duck, then by all means, call it a duck. If it walks like an elephant, barks like a dog, and runs like a cheetah, don't bloody tell me it's a duck.



And whois preventing you from doing that right now?


Quote me. Where did I say you couldn't be with whomever you wanted?


Quote me. Where did I claim it was "part of my freedom?"


I'm sorry, but any time you tell people about or display aspects of your personal life, you do open yourself up to other people's opinions. That's not because your homosexual, it's because you are telling other people about your private life or doing something in puiblic.

If I tell you "I prefer being around canines rather than humans," I'm opening myself up to your personal opinions. If I don't want to hear your opinion on the matter, then it's up to me to keep it to myself. If I feeeel the neeeed to tell you, it's based on a desire to seek approval, in this case from another human. That would be my choice, thus my resaponsability to accept the consequences of that decision. Of course, other people's approval is neither required nor desired in order for me to prefer the company of canines.


The Sims has expansion packs. :p

Look, I understand what you are saying. If someone wants to design a game with gay characters for gay players, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is when the game designers make sexuality the main focus of the game when it is otherwise unnecessary. I'll give you three examples:

Champions of Norrath: You can choose the gender and appearance of the main character. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.

Ace Combat. You don't even see the pilot you play.

Star Wars: Battlefront. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.


An example of sexuality being a factor in a game is San Andreas. Dating in order to achive special bonuses? Please. Gimmie real challenges, not pillow-talk. I don't like those aspects of the game, so I avoid them. Of course, Rockstar is under no obligation to cater to my sexual desires or lack there of. Fine, they put dating in the game. If I reeeeeeally despised it, I'd make no plans to buy any further GTA games. Fortunately, there are many other things to do in the game world, so I pretend the "girlfriends" don't exist, and move on.


Exactly, and my point was that everyone's personal choices can do harm, whether it's intended or not. To say otherwise is disingenuous.



I could have sworn you said you had a girlfriend. Well, whatever. Anyhow, when someone starts talking about their significant other, they are involving you in their private lives. I know so many girls who talk about the guy they are going out with as if that is the only aspect of their lives. I don't want to hear it, especially from the ones who complain about how their "other half" is this-that-the other, blah blah blah - good God, why do they want to tell me?

^ That's what I'm talking about.



Ok, I'll take a neutral stance on this statement and ask if you can please elaborate.
hey you forgot to quote me too :)

Wolfguard
26-05-06, 00:56
hey you forgot to quote me too :)
Nuh uh. ;p

Everyone follows some form of conduct in regards to social interaction. For instance, I shouldn't walk into a Mosque or a Sikh temple wearing shoes. By your logic, would you suggest that it is OK for me to do that? If I did, do they then have a right to tell me otherwise?
and by this logic..you're saying that gays should keep their sexual relations out of the publics' sight
I'm not keen on knowing of or about anyone's private life when it's sexual in nature. I'm also not in favor of PDAs from anyone. Care to answer my question in regards to Mosques and Sikh temples?

I don't believe every single person who engages in homosexual behavior is in fact a homosexual.
elaborate on this.please
How do you know that someone claiming to be homosexual is not simply a heterosexual who's experimenting just for kicks? How do you know a self-claimed homosexual is not a heterosexual who has abandonment issues with the same sex? There are many factors which play into how heterosexuals act sexually. Why would homosexuals or those who are self-claimed be any different?

CerebralAssassin
26-05-06, 00:59
1. Direct me to the specific laws.
2. I know some have been eliminated, one in particular (sodomy,) thus there is no legal "constriction" under that unless done in public (as is hetero sex.)
3. I already said I have no problem with the creation of and legalizing benefits for domestic partnerships.


First of all, no, the argument can't go the other way in regards to arguing that heterosexuality is not the right way. The science behind sexual reproduction from insects to mammals flies in the face of that. Unless you are an aphid, or a lone amphibian female, sexual reproduction occurs between males and females, i.e. the primary purpose of sexual reproduction is to reproduce. The purpose of sexual attraction is to incite the feeling of a "need" to copulate.


In terms of science, there is no morality in regards to seeking the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Our culture bestowed different types of morality in order to maintain social harmony. For example, the ancient Jewish laws against homosexuality were ment to protect young boys from olderman in the society. In my case, I view things from a scientific perspective in order to gage my morality. Heterosexual sex has its own dark side, and it's seen in gross excess, bondage, nymphomania, gang bangs, pedophilia, rape, etc. None of those acts have to do with reproduction - they are geared towards feelings without the intent to reproduce, or in the case of nymphos, it's an imbalance.


This where we are getting close to some common ground again, i.e. some mutual respect for differences. I do understand your point. Overall, I would prefer there was a complete lack of PDAs. Moreover, I think it would be fair for everyone since it does not single out any particular group.


The majority on Planet California do not always get what they vote for, as demonstrated by prop 187 which was passed by the majority and overturned by the lawyers/special interest groups who opposed it. The State always does things without consent of the majority.


I don't see it as necessary. Tell me which game I have where I can "choose" to play as straight character? Maybe I want something something more along my personal interests - a character who does not date and prefers the company of his canine friends. Oh,you know what, if I really want to, I can pretend that's the case anyway.


Where did I say you can't make that choice when playing? Quote me and we'll go from there.


It has nothing to do with being "comfortable" or "uncomfortable." I like women, but overall, I consider human sexuality to be an annoyance. It permiates into everything, be it work, TV, movies, games and this conversation. Illuminati mentioned the term "mature society." My version of that is people's ability to keep theirr junk in the trunk and be people first, instead of a society of sex-obsessed maniacs who feeeeel the neeeeed to perscribe sex into every aspect of life.

The article which this thread is based on speaks volumes to that, because it assigns sexual inuendos to things which are not, and in my opinion, hurts your cause more than it helps since it attempts to turn an otherwise neutral thing into something gay. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and flies like a duck, then by all means, call it a duck. If it walks like an elephant, barks like a dog, and runs like a cheetah, don't bloody tell me it's a duck.



And whois preventing you from doing that right now?


Quote me. Where did I say you couldn't be with whomever you wanted?


Quote me. Where did I claim it was "part of my freedom?"


I'm sorry, but any time you tell people about or display aspects of your personal life, you do open yourself up to other people's opinions. That's not because your homosexual, it's because you are telling other people about your private life or doing something in puiblic.

If I tell you "I prefer being around canines rather than humans," I'm opening myself up to your personal opinions. If I don't want to hear your opinion on the matter, then it's up to me to keep it to myself. If I feeeel the neeeed to tell you, it's based on a desire to seek approval, in this case from another human. That would be my choice, thus my resaponsability to accept the consequences of that decision. Of course, other people's approval is neither required nor desired in order for me to prefer the company of canines.


The Sims has expansion packs. :p

Look, I understand what you are saying. If someone wants to design a game with gay characters for gay players, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is when the game designers make sexuality the main focus of the game when it is otherwise unnecessary. I'll give you three examples:

Champions of Norrath: You can choose the gender and appearance of the main character. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.

Ace Combat. You don't even see the pilot you play.

Star Wars: Battlefront. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.


An example of sexuality being a factor in a game is San Andreas. Dating in order to achive special bonuses? Please. Gimmie real challenges, not pillow-talk. I don't like those aspects of the game, so I avoid them. Of course, Rockstar is under no obligation to cater to my sexual desires or lack there of. Fine, they put dating in the game. If I reeeeeeally despised it, I'd make no plans to buy any further GTA games. Fortunately, there are many other things to do in the game world, so I pretend the "girlfriends" don't exist, and move on.


Exactly, and my point was that everyone's personal choices can do harm, whether it's intended or not. To say otherwise is disingenuous.



I could have sworn you said you had a girlfriend. Well, whatever. Anyhow, when someone starts talking about their significant other, they are involving you in their private lives. I know so many girls who talk about the guy they are going out with as if that is the only aspect of their lives. I don't want to hear it, especially from the ones who complain about how their "other half" is this-that-the other, blah blah blah - good God, why do they want to tell me?

^ That's what I'm talking about.



Ok, I'll take a neutral stance on this statement and ask if you can please elaborate.

Offtopic: Jesus Christ :eek: I just noticed how long this is...do you get payed by the hour or by the letter? :vlol:

Wolfguard
26-05-06, 01:01
seperate but equal. that sounds familiar.
Equal, by way of showing respect for each side's case. Separate, because the descriptions are in regards to two different things due to the players. It's called compromise, something both sides should be willing to do, or at least strive for.

Wolfguard
26-05-06, 01:03
Offtopic: Jesus Christ :eek: I just noticed how long this is...
That's nothin'. You should see me when I'm not short on time. :D


do you get payed by the hour or by the letter? :vlol:
I wish...maybe if I wrote as much for the novels I want to write. :p

xMiSsCrOfTx
26-05-06, 01:08
Lol, Wolfguard, writing some essays I see? :eek: :D

Wolfguard
26-05-06, 01:10
Lol, Wolfguard, writing some essays I see? :eek: :D
I think I need to retire, though. Gotta have a steady hand for placing catheters and pulling blood. ;)

CerebralAssassin
26-05-06, 01:13
Nuh uh. ;p

I'm not keen on knowing of or about anyone's private life when it's sexual in nature. I'm also not in favor of PDAs from anyone. Care to answer my question in regards to Mosques and Sikh temples?


How do you know that someone claiming to be homosexual is not simply a heterosexual who's experimenting just for kicks? How do you know a self-claimed homosexual is not a heterosexual who has abandonment issues with the same sex? There are many factors which play into how heterosexuals act sexually. Why would homosexuals or those who are self-claimed be any different?
LOL,don't feel like slugging it out with you right now,let me do a little research and I"ll get back to ya ok? ;)

Wolfguard
26-05-06, 01:21
^ You got plenty of time; I'm off to work now. :wve:

illuminati30
26-05-06, 11:34
Illuminati mentioned the term "mature society.".

Nope.

illuminati30
26-05-06, 12:05
First of all, no, the argument can't go the other way in regards to arguing that heterosexuality is not the right way. The science behind sexual reproduction from insects to mammals flies in the face of that. Unless you are an aphid, or a lone amphibian female, sexual reproduction occurs between males and females, i.e. the primary purpose of sexual reproduction is to reproduce. The purpose of sexual attraction is to incite the feeling of a "need" to copulate. .

So you are saying people should only have sex to reproduce? Your poor wife.

In my case, I view things from a scientific perspective in order to gage my morality.
.

You are looking for morals in science. Are you crazy!!



Tell me which game I have where I can "choose" to play as straight character?
.
Loads, prince of perisa falling in love with Farha, the legend of zelda, final fantasy etc, could go on forever.





It has nothing to do with being "comfortable" or "uncomfortable." I like women, but overall, I consider human sexuality to be an annoyance.
.

An annoyance!! That sounds pretty uncomfortable to me.

It permiates into everything, be it work, TV, movies, games and this conversation.
.
Right, so we have never to make another love movie again, or fall in love again?

"mature society." My version of that is people's ability to keep theirr junk in the trunk and be people first, instead of a society of sex-obsessed maniacs who feeeeel the neeeeed to perscribe sex into every aspect of life. .

Again are we talking about sex or love here, nobody wants to inflict sex upon you, all these people want is to have their relationships accepted.


The article which this thread is based on speaks volumes to that, because it assigns sexual inuendos to things which are not, and in my opinion, hurts your cause more than it helps since it attempts to turn an otherwise neutral thing into something gay. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and flies like a duck, then by all means, call it a duck. If it walks like an elephant, barks like a dog, and runs like a cheetah, don't bloody tell me it's a duck..
Your a duck :tea:




I'm sorry, but any time you tell people about or display aspects of your personal life, you do open yourself up to other people's opinions. That's not because your homosexual, it's because you are telling other people about your private life or doing something in puiblic..

Kissing, holding hands? Everyone does that, nobody says anything.



Look, I understand what you are saying. If someone wants to design a game with gay characters for gay players, I have no problem with that.
.
You are trying to segregate gay people from society even more.


What I have a problem with is when the game designers make sexuality the main focus of the game when it is otherwise unnecessary. I'll give you three examples where you have your own personal choice:

Champions of Norrath: You can choose the gender and appearance of the main character. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.

Ace Combat. You don't even see the pilot you play.

Star Wars: Battlefront. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.
.

Many games involve characters falling in love.

An example of sexuality being a factor in a game is San Andreas. Dating in order to achive special bonuses? Please. Gimmie real challenges, not pillow-talk. I don't like those aspects of the game, so I avoid them. Of course, Rockstar is under no obligation to cater to my sexual desires or lack there of. Fine, they put dating in the game. If I reeeeeeally despised it, I'd make no plans to buy any further GTA games. Fortunately, there are many other things to do in the game world, so I pretend the "girlfriends" don't exist, and move on. .

The first mistake you made was buying GTA, totally awful game that i avoid. So you had no problem running folk over, shooting people, or beating up old ladies with baseball bats, but you complain about the dating :vlol:


Exactly, and my point was that everyone's personal choices can do harm, whether it's intended or not. To say otherwise is disingenuous.
.

Yes. I am gay, who am i harming please?



I could have sworn you said you had a girlfriend. Well, whatever. Anyhow, when someone starts talking about their significant other, they are involving you in their private lives. I know so many girls who talk about the guy they are going out with as if that is the only aspect of their lives. I don't want to hear it, especially from the ones who complain about how their "other half" is this-that-the other, blah blah blah - good God, why do they want to tell me?
.

You must be the most crap friend around if people cant talk to you about their problems.

Wolfguard, what is your solution? Would you rather gay people are seen and not heard? OK you may have a problem with people showing affection in public, gay or straight, but whether you like it or not it happens unless you go around with eyes closed. Should straight people be allowed to do this and not gay? Come on, you tell us, how should society change then? what should we do, or is it fine the way it is?

illuminati30
26-05-06, 12:10
How do you know that someone claiming to be homosexual is not simply a heterosexual who's experimenting just for kicks??

And you spoke about oxymoron earlier. I think you are the biggest oxymoron here. Are you having a laugh like ? :vlol: Please read my earlier posts, this will explain this for you.

Yeah i just pretend to be gay as i just love listening to people like you.

illuminati30
26-05-06, 12:12
I really feel this thread has become distracted. I would love some of the questions i addressed eariler to find some answers.

Mona Sax
26-05-06, 12:33
1. Direct me to the specific laws.
Civil law in general. I don't know the actual acts in California.
2. I know some have been eliminated, one in particular (sodomy,) thus there is no legal "constriction" under that unless done in public (as is hetero sex.)
I still can't marry another woman if I want to. And I seriously hope you're not comparing homosexuality to sodomy.
3. I already said I have no problem with the creation of and legalizing benefits for domestic partnerships.
Domestic partnerships are a step in the right direction, but not more. Marriage has a higher social value than an ordinary contract. As long as it's not open to gays and lesbians, their constitutional right to be treated equally is violated. [See below: If the majority of people wants to exclude gays from marriage, I'm not happy with it, but I can accept that decision]

First of all, no, the argument can't go the other way in regards to arguing that heterosexuality is not the right way. The science behind sexual reproduction from insects to mammals flies in the face of that. Unless you are an aphid, or a lone amphibian female, sexual reproduction occurs between males and females, i.e. the primary purpose of sexual reproduction is to reproduce. The purpose of sexual attraction is to incite the feeling of a "need" to copulate.
You're right. My intention was to stir things up a bit and show you what being looked down on by certain parts of society feels like. Obviously the experiment failed.

In terms of science, there is no morality in regards to seeking the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Our culture bestowed different types of morality in order to maintain social harmony. For example, the ancient Jewish laws against homosexuality were ment to protect young boys from older men in the society. In my case, I view things from a scientific perspective in order to gage my morality. Heterosexual sex has its own dark side, and it's seen in gross excess, bondage, nymphomania, gang bangs, pedophilia, rape, etc. None of those acts have to do with reproduction - they are geared towards feelings without the intent to reproduce, or in the case of nymphos, it's an imbalance.
In terms of science, there is no morality in regards to seeking the same sex in order to get satisfaction either. And don't you think not allowing anybody to have relationships with members of the same sex is not the right way to protect children? Why not just outlaw pedophilia?
I'd like to comment on bondage too, but this forum really isn't the place for it.

This where we are getting close to some common ground again, i.e. some mutual respect for differences. I do understand your point. Overall, I would prefer there was a complete lack of PDAs. Moreover, I think it would be fair for everyone since it does not single out any particular group.
I can live with that as long as you're not trying to force your (moral) point of view on other people. As I said, I think nobody wants a morality police.

The majority on Planet California do not always get what they vote for, as demonstrated by prop 187 which was passed by the majority and overturned by the lawyers/special interest groups who opposed it. The State always does things without consent of the majority.
Yup, seems to be a characteristic of politicians. No argument here. If the majority wants marriage to be a guy/gal thing, that sucks, but I can live with it.

I don't see it as necessary. Tell me which game I have where I can "choose" to play as straight character? Maybe I want something something more along my personal interests - a character who does not date and prefers the company of his canine friends. Oh,you know what, if I really want to, I can pretend that's the case anyway.
There are obviously no such games because being able to choose to play as a straight character would include the opposite choice. If you can look past the usual "prince/princess" stories, good for you.

Where did I say you can't make that choice when playing? Quote me and we'll go from there.
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=941167&postcount=62

It has nothing to do with being "comfortable" or "uncomfortable." I like women, but overall, I consider human sexuality to be an annoyance. It permiates into everything, be it work, TV, movies, games and this conversation. Illuminati mentioned the term "mature society." My version of that is people's ability to keep theirr junk in the trunk and be people first, instead of a society of sex-obsessed maniacs who feeeeel the neeeeed to perscribe sex into every aspect of life.
I agree that our society is over-sexualized, but there's no supply without demand. Sex sells, it's as easy as that. Your opinion obviously isn't the majority's.

The article which this thread is based on speaks volumes to that, because it assigns sexual inuendos to things which are not, and in my opinion, hurts your cause more than it helps since it attempts to turn an otherwise neutral thing into something gay. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and flies like a duck, then by all means, call it a duck. If it walks like an elephant, barks like a dog, and runs like a cheetah, don't bloody tell me it's a duck.
Nobody wants "gay" games forced on heterosexual players. All the article wants is more freedom for the player to mold the character after his own interests to increase identification and immersion.

And who is preventing you from doing that [=living the life I want] right now?
You. You don't want me to be able to marry whoever I want.

Quote me. Where did I say you couldn't be with whomever you wanted?
Nowhere. "Being with somebody" doesn't equal "marrying somebody".

Quote me. Where did I claim it was "part of my freedom?" [to decide on my private life]
In all the posts where you oppose gay marriage. By taking the liberty to tell me who I should be able to marry (yes, marry, not start a "domestic partnership" with) you try to make my private business yours.

I'm sorry, but any time you tell people about or display aspects of your personal life, you do open yourself up to other people's opinions. That's not because your homosexual, it's because you are telling other people about your private life or doing something in puiblic.
I didn't tell anybody anything about my private life in this thread.

If I tell you "I prefer being around canines rather than humans," I'm opening myself up to your personal opinions. If I don't want to hear your opinion on the matter, then it's up to me to keep it to myself. If I feeeel the neeeed to tell you, it's based on a desire to seek approval, in this case from another human. That would be my choice, thus my responsability to accept the consequences of that decision. Of course, other people's approval is neither required nor desired in order for me to prefer the company of canines.
Believe me, I don't give a damn if you prefer the company of canines or monkeys or parrots or whatever. It's none of my business, and I'm certainly in no place to comment or judge.

Look, I understand what you are saying. If someone wants to design a game with gay characters for gay players, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is when the game designers make sexuality the main focus of the game when it is otherwise unnecessary. I'll give you three examples where you have your own personal choice:

Champions of Norrath: You can choose the gender and appearance of the main character. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.

Ace Combat. You don't even see the pilot you play.

Star Wars: Battlefront. Sexuality is not a factor, thus it is neutral.

An example of sexuality being a factor in a game is San Andreas. Dating in order to achive special bonuses? Please. Gimmie real challenges, not pillow-talk. I don't like those aspects of the game, so I avoid them. Of course, Rockstar is under no obligation to cater to my sexual desires or lack there of. Fine, they put dating in the game. If I reeeeeeally despised it, I'd make no plans to buy any further GTA games. Fortunately, there are many other things to do in the game world, so I pretend the "girlfriends" don't exist, and move on.
I think you misunderstand me. I don't want more sexuality in games, I merely want gay people to be represented in games once in a while.

I could have sworn you said you had a girlfriend. Well, whatever. Anyhow, when someone starts talking about their significant other, they are involving you in their private lives. I know so many girls who talk about the guy they are going out with as if that is the only aspect of their lives. I don't want to hear it, especially from the ones who complain about how their "other half" is this-that-the other, blah blah blah - good God, why do they want to tell me?

^ That's what I'm talking about.
$100 say I didn't. ;)

Ok, I'll take a neutral stance on this statement [homosexuality not more harmful than heterosexuality] and ask if you can please elaborate.
Easy. Relationships can hurt people, no matter if they're straight or gay. Gay people fall in love, break up, get obsessed, cheat on each other and get lovesick. Sounds familiar? So do straight people.

Geck-o-Lizard
26-05-06, 12:37
I don't care what your orientation is as long as you don't go on about it to me. I don't think about your sexual orientation when I'm chatting with you every day or when I'm buying my lunch from you or playing against you in a computer game. It's none of my business, doesn't concern me in the least, and has no effect on my interaction with you.

But if you turn up the volume and start preaching about your mating preference every chance you get, of course I'll get annoyed! I get annoyed at my own straight friends for constantly going on and on and ON about men all the time, and I get annoyed at the gays who think they should get extra special treatment and recognition for it and start making themselves as obnoxious as possible.

You know what I hate? Having to restructure my sentences just to get people to listen to what I say without responding with "har har har, she said 'pole'."

Sex is between you and your partner, so I don't understand why so many people seem to want to make sure the rest of the world knows who they take to bed with them?