View Full Version : Old Chinese proverb - If it aint broke, don't fix it!
tlr online
17-06-06, 11:14
Anyone concerned a remake could destroy the magic of the original games?
no not really. Even if they change it, the original will still Tomb Raider.
Besides, a TR game can't be bad.
No, definatly not, the original will always be there and still have its own magic, even if the new games a success or not IMO;)
YES!! I wasn't as worried when I heard Core were making it, because some of the guys there had worked on preivous TR Games and knew about the magic and charm, but I am scared at what Crystal could do to the game. I want it to be the complete opposite of legend, but I am not sure I can see that happening... This could potentially be the game that RUINS tr forever...
Not really. If it doesn't live up to expectations it doesn't make the original any less great. It it is succesful and maybe even better than the original then it will be an amazing game and possibly the best one yet. I am a bit concerned it wont be as good as we're all hoping but no it wont make the original any less great if thats the case. Hopefully it will be even better than the original tho.
*bites bottom lip and nods sheepishly*
Yes... as I've said on the 10th anniversary thread, I am going through a whole gamut of emotions over this remake.
On one hand, I can just dream how good the game will look... the locations are so lush and awe inspiring as it is, a noughties update will make them look unbelievable!
But... there again... TR1 is a very, very special game, and if the remake does not do the original justice, I can see there being a HUGE section of the TR fanbase falling away in disgust. CD has a HUGE responsibility to deliver - even more so, I feel, than with Legend. Legend we can excuse - it was a new game, trying to go in a new direction. However, with the remake, I for one will not be so forgiving. If I hear 'headset', 'remake' and 'included' in the same sentence (without a 'not' in front of the 'included' part of that sentence, of course!) I am not going to give this remake the time of day, and I will have a paddy of biblical proportions. Sodom and Gomorrah will have NOTHING on the temper tantrum I shall be throwing!
It's about respect. Update and remake the original, but please, for the love of Lara, RESPECT the original (and the fans of the original). Don't make us, the original fans (the ones who this game SHOULD be catering too, in all honesty... if it wasn't for us, the game wouldn't be successful enough to warrant a remake! Do you see a 'Deathtrap Dungeon' remake in the works? No? THAT'S BECAUSE IT HAD/S BUGGER ALL FANS!!) have to play second fiddle to a 'new audience' a second time around...
*prays to CD* Plase don't dumb down, mess up or generally screw this around please... respect the original. Give us those goosebumps the original gave us.
Well, I am worried. Ever since I’ve heard that Crystal D. completely erased the old Lara Croft in Legend I wasn’t too keen about the series, because with all the respect, Legend has a characters named Lara Croft, but she’s not Lara Croft.:rolleyes:
When I heard that Core doing the remake I was so excited because I knew they wouldn’t screw it up, with Crystal D. however, I’m not so sure – I don’t want to hear same voice actress as in Legend, I don’t want such a limited inventory system, or lack use of keys and artifacts in opening doors, or weak puzzles and boring enemies. :(
I’ve been replaying old TR games for the past few weeks and I still enjoy them as in the first time. No matter how many times I’ve finished those games it still takes me about 40 minutes to finish single level, and I still get jumpy with those creepy mummies and their scary moaning.
If Crystal D. ruin this game, there would be no coming back… :hea:
Yes.
I'm an honest person about what I feel, so here's my opinion which I'm sure a few people will scoff at:
When there were rumors of a remake I didn't like the idea At All. I was worried that nothing could compare to the original wonder of TR1.
Then out came the leaked footage, and I 'U-turned' something amazing. This footage looked stunning, it was poor quality, and yet it looked more Tomb Raidery than anything legend presented, and had me more excited than any legend trailer ever did. When I found out that it was all Core's work, I was ecstatic, I'd never ever lost faith in that team, and to me my unwavering faithfulness paid off - Lara was back home where she belonged with the remake, with Core.
Then I find out it's cancelled. Wow was I disheartened, and angry at the cancellers for not only taking this opportunity away from the loyal fans, but also from Core.
I began to com round to the idea by remembering that 'I still have the original games, the original magic and feeling, and no-one can change that'. I almost became content with the idea that there wasn't going to be a remake.
Then we get the announcement from Eidos that the remake is continuing, but in the hands of Crystal Dynamics.
Honestly, I was less than happy with legend and have quoted in the past that I don't want CD Anywher near the classics.
It scares me, alot. The things from legend that they might incorporate into the classic Tomb Raider 1 (&2): Grapple, autograb, headset, Z&A, dumbed down gameplay, patronising shiny objects and spinning targets, the Blackout when she's plummeting to her death, techno-music, her 3 foot jumps, no ability to roll/ flip backwards or jump sideways, or even sidestep for that matter, the fact that there might not be keys and switches in the game..
All these things terrify me, and I'm extremely aprehensive and nervous and last night, even nearly a bit sick (Yes, that's how much I care).
So many things could break the original masterpiece.
Fortunatley (although you wouldn't guess it from reading that) today is another day, and I'm attempting to be positive about it.
CD will have to do this properly, or fans will take up arms against them.
They have to stick to what made TR good in the first place, the puzzles, atmosphere, moves, gameplay, music, etc - and in doing this they will Learn how to make a Brilliant Tomb Raider, and they can then use this knowledge in future Tomb Raider games.
I'm giving them a chance, I'm not holding my breath, but I am giving them a chance, to see what they can do. Then I'll make my mind up definitively. I'm scared, but willing.
:wve:
Rivendell - I know how you feel.
*whispers, because she knows this is going to cause controvesy...*
What concerns me the most is that they will implement the Legend features (hints, headset, minimum exploration etc) out of sheer stubborn-ness. It doesn't take a genius (okay, imo) to see that TR1 is by FAR the superior game to Legend... if CD take this opportunity by the horns and make a truly fantastic remake of it, including original features (such as old swimming, longer jumps and same level of exploration), it is going to show up Legend BIG TIME... do you truly think they are going to do that? Make a remake that shows up their new 'flagship' game as the classic case of style over content that it is?
I think not... come on, why do you think Core's version got cancelled?! It wasn't because it looked crap, that's for sure. It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to figure out why Eidos pulled the plug...
AnthonyShock1515
17-06-06, 11:43
well, they MUST include every detail of the game, and it cant be changed.
and thye same music should be used.
No, I'm not worried!
I will always still play the original TR1 game and nothing can ruin it. :)
A remake would just be a fantastic bonus! I reeeally hope they will make it for faithful fans like me who has been fans for ten years. :)
Rivendell - I know how you feel.
*whispers, because she knows this is going to cause controvesy...*
What concerns me the most is that they will implement the Legend features (hints, headset, minimum exploration etc) out of sheer stubborn-ness. It doesn't take a genius (okay, imo) to see that TR1 is by FAR the superior game to Legend... if CD take this opportunity by the horns and make a truly fantastic remake of it, including original features (such as old swimming, longer jumps and same level of exploration), it is going to show up Legend BIG TIME... do you truly think they are going to do that? Make a remake that shows up their new 'flagship' game as the classic case of style over content that it is?
I think not... come on, why do you think Core's version got cancelled?! It wasn't because it looked crap, that's for sure. It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to figure out why Eidos pulled the plug...
Yeah I think this too, Maybe they thought a remake would make Crystal Ds, the new 'tr' creators, look bad against the remake. People would probably complain and say they want Core back and that it is a 'true TR game.' And people would rather buy remade old games instead of buying new games targetted at a younger audience
tlr online
17-06-06, 12:03
What concerns me the most is that they will implement the Legend features (hints, headset, minimum exploration etc) out of sheer stubborn-ness.
I don't think so. That's one of the reasons this (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=66940) thread was set up, so be sure to voice your opinion on what you liked and disliked about Legend, because a lot of folk are listening right now.
I don't think so. That's one of the reasons this (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=66940) thread was set up, so be sure to voice your opinion on what you liked and disliked about Legend, because a lot of folk are listening right now.
I am so glad to hear that tlr. It's forums like this, allowing people to express their opinions which can let the right people aware of what we really do like and dislike. I am worried about this game. If I am honest, If ALL the features crystal d added, excluding graphics, were removed I'd probably be happy. That's kinda harsh I know, but kinda true... I am sure there are some other things I liked about the game though, I'd just need to think.
But your post has kinda made me feel a little less worried.
I don't think so. That's one of the reasons this (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=66940) thread was set up, so be sure to voice your opinion on what you liked and disliked about Legend, because a lot of folk are listening right now.
:) I really, really hope you're right, tlr! I really do. (I've already voiced my opinions on that one - too good an opportunity to waste. :tmb: )
Oooh, I just love TR1 soooo much... please, please, PLEASE make me eat my words on this one, CD! (Considering how much I love the LoK series, I KNOW they can do it...)
I hope Crystal can do a good job! *crosses fingers* Hope this is even better then Legend and everyone is happy. I'm giving them a chance because they make good games. I hope they listen to the suggestions and then everyone will be happy with the game.
I'm so excited! :jmp:
Im excited about the remake but I really dont want to much to change. Upgrading the graphics to modern standard is fine but I dont want Crystal to change the original gameplay terms.
TR1 is quite a simple game compared to Legend, and it should stay that way :)
I'm not worried. I'm sure they listen to us and write a list what fans likes and disliked in legend..
I don't think so. That's one of the reasons this (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=66940) thread was set up, so be sure to voice your opinion on what you liked and disliked about Legend, because a lot of folk are listening right now.
That was for the benefit of the remake? Or Tr8? Hopefully CD will 'pander to the fans requests' as it were ;)
Lara Croft!
17-06-06, 12:25
no not really. Even if they change it, the original will still Tomb Raider.
Besides, a TR game can't be bad.
I totally agree!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I am concerned.
I know a lot of people are going about saying 'don't worry - just give them a CHANCE' and to be honest with you - if it was any other company I would.
But I've already seen the direction CD are taking Tomb Raider and I don't like it.
Of course, that doesn't mean they'll do the same thing with the remake - but do you know what scares me?
Comments from CD like 'we started playing it, but got too frustrated and gave up' (please, someone tell me that was made up), comments from Toby Gard like 'She's my character, I'll do what I want with her' - all the comments about how there were things that needed to be fixed (I think it was Blackmoor who was talking about this a few days ago - they don't have anything positive to say about the old games).
Another thing that worries me is the fact that this was taken off Core only a few weeks ago - which may mean that the decision was influenced by the success of Legend and the new brand of Tomb Raiding.
The reality is that the old style of Tomb Raider just doesn't sell as well as the new one. It would be very strange, after creating a whole new audience with Legend, to keep it in the old style. If we're being honest - the old school fans don't really matter now. They have their new, larger market, and what all of this comes down to is money. Not fan loyalty, not the goodness of their hearts - MONEY. And Legend has sold beyond what was expected of it.
Yet ANOTHER thing which makes me nervous is the fact that for some bizarre reason, CD felt the need to change Lara's backstory (maybe they just didn't read it?) completely. This may seem like a small point - but what I'm saying is that coupled with the negative comments and the changes to the formula, they just don't have a good track record in regards to the original series.
I hope to GOD they have the sense to just stick to what made the original so great and give the graphics a polishing up - but don't you dare tell us we have no right to be afraid or that we HAVE to give CD a chance, because this isn't us being stubborn for the sake of it - I have genuine concerns about this.
CD have made one Tomb Raider game so far and it single handedly changed the series from the one I loved, into something else that appeals to a different group of people.
They have had ONE chance, and yes - I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they can improve things for TR8 - but one abysmally short and easy Tomb Raider game is NOT enough to hand over the reigns of possibly my favourite two games of all time. There has been no evidence so far that they are up to creating a great game in that style, while Core have showed that numerous times.
This was also Core's chance to redeem themselves after AOD - they had a chance here to get back on top - to finish on a high. It's a bit of a kick in the face to let them work on that (and I'm sure they put their absolute heart and soul into it to make sure it wasn't another AOD) and then say 'yeah, we're taking the originals off you as well'.
I agree with alot of the other folks, even if Crystal Dynamics do a bad job with the remake, TR1 will always be there, it will still be the best.
I'm curious on how Crystal Dynamics will do, how good or how bad they will do with this remake. :p
Tomb Raider Jay
17-06-06, 12:31
Nope, I'm not worried at all! :D
Tomb Raider will always be a magical game and although the re-make will be a huge success - I have complete faith in Crystal Dynamics - TR will always be the original and best anyway!
They won't add in the hints and tips, they won't add in Zip and Alister, they won't add in the dress-up Lara feature and they won't add in the headset either!
I think they are completely re-making Tomb Raider the way it once was but simply updating the graphics and adding in a few new bits for us to explore :p
It would be pretty hard for them to screw-up especialy as Toby Gard is involved!
This will be the first Tomb Raider game in a decade that I won't buy as soon as it comes out - I'm going to step back and see what the people on this forum say before parting with my money.
This will be the first Tomb Raider game in a decade that I won't buy as soon as it comes out - I'm going to step back and see what the people on this forum say before parting with my money.
same here
Lone Raider
17-06-06, 12:34
I agree with Rivendell and Elysia as usual.
There is a long running series of teenage whodunnit books which originated in the sixties in the USA. Some time in the last fifteen years (not sure about the details) the series was discontinued in US and sold to a german publisher. It's been continued by several writers. Some of them added bits and pieces which were liked by the younger readers but detested by the oldschool fans.
My sister who is a writer received an offer to write a book for the series. The first thing she did was to sit down and read all 123 books that had been published so far. She nailed down the characters of the heroes and the atmosphere of the series and reviews on her book were overall that it's as close as can get to the classics. For that I respect her very much,
and I wish CD would bother to do the same.
They've got to change it slightly, they can't have it identical to the original... there would be no point.... we'd all know where to go and what to do, they have to keep it a long the same lines, but adapt it so old tomb raider fans can enjoy it as much as new.
Tomb Raider Jay
17-06-06, 13:00
Am I the only person on this forum who thinks the direction Crystal are taking Tomb Raider in is the right one?
Tomb Raider needs change.
I love the original TR and TR2 but after that the series was dying a slow and painful death at the hands of Eidos - I realise it wasn't Cores fault because it was Eidos that forced them to use the same game engine for the last 6 games!
Crystal are trying new things for the series - gathering a new and growing fanbase of people to experience TR for the first time.
Catching up with the competition like Prince of Persia - the genre has evolved since the days of TR with games like POP and God Of War setting a new benchmark in platform/adventure games and TR is now catching up with them :p
But in all honesty I think in some ways Crystal have made a mistake in doing that, instead of copying POP they should have looked back into TR's own gameplay roots - ie the challenge of the enviroments around Lara and the puzzle solving aspects.
But POP is what todays platform/adventure games are measured by so I can understand Crystal having to make it like POP
Legend is the first attempt and I think Crystal will learn from there mistakes and make a better all round game for Tomb Raider 8! :)
As for the re-make it will be brilliant, just be glad Crystal are actually doing TR the re-make and not some suck-ass developer like EA!
Lara's Boy
17-06-06, 13:03
I am not overly afraid....if they do a REMAKE and follow the precedented guidelines, I don't see where they could screw up (unless they throw in a headset and shiny items....). This is also a chance for CD to really get to know Lara, and that leads me to think that TR8 (if it is made) has the potential to be stellar.
:wve:
Tlr - you do like making official'y threads - are CD going to be shown this thread as well as the other one? ;) :D
WhosaidAODwasbad
17-06-06, 13:28
Anyone concerned a remake could destroy the magic of the original games?
Exactly, when I think of a remake, it should be a new game so that old and new will enjoy its not just aimed towards those who have never played the game! I think more add-ons and upgrades to levels should be in Remakes, they should revamp the levels to stay true to the original but make it new. Its just like an old coat of paint its still nice but alittle dull around the edges, so you put on the new coat of the same paint! Its the same paint but is smooth all over! If they keep the concept for levels and the puzzles and even if they add some newer levels between newer levels I would be fine. But it defintly should be more of Add-ons and upgrades not a complete over haul! I want to be able to reconigize the game, but I want to be able to get confuzed still, because I know pracically every puzzle and secret, and trick in TR 1 except atlantis I don't remember!
OH and I was remembering you know in the Great Pyramid where you jump from the tall room and you have to swan dive into the little hole around all the lava, how cool do you think that would look I am already excited?! :)
WhosaidAODwasbad
17-06-06, 13:32
Nope, I'm not worried at all! :D
Tomb Raider will always be a magical game and although the re-make will be a huge success - I have complete faith in Crystal Dynamics - TR will always be the original and best anyway!
They won't add in the hints and tips, they won't add in Zip and Alister, they won't add in the dress-up Lara feature and they won't add in the headset either!
I think they are completely re-making Tomb Raider the way it once was but simply updating the graphics and adding in a few new bits for us to explore :p
It would be pretty hard for them to screw-up especialy as Toby Gard is involved!
Exactly I believe he was proud of the first but he left with Tomb Raider 2 because of the direction of the game! It just like a proud pappa and his good kid yeah his kid is good but there are always things your pop wants you to do better! Atleast TR 1 isn't the ugly step child!
Anyone concerned a remake could destroy the magic of the original games?
Yep, I am one worried fan.. and I agree with the chinese proverb... they are smart peopole... I'd preffer a new adventure not a remake.. for me TR1 is sacred, nobody should touch it again, especially CD....
And as long as they new moves of Lara and the lotta poles are included, cannot be a remake for me... a remake should have a steady camera and proper directions for Lara...
WhosaidAODwasbad
17-06-06, 13:58
Yeah I am a little scared too but I have yet to see a horrible game Remake. Yeah I've seen a horrible movie remake, but most of those movies are bad anyways! If they don't make us feel the same way the first TR did the first time, then yes it is a failure! I wouldn't doubt that they add some traps from later in the series and in legend! such as closing spiked door and others. They could really still capture the magic of the original but add to it! I am not as scared as others but any good game at first can seem good or a good Idea!
I love the proverb... What they should do is NOT have background music. Only have like wind sounds and doors opening from time to time...
illuminati30
17-06-06, 14:07
I am a totally mixed bag of feelings about this. I have wanted a remake of this game ever since i played the Resident Evil remake, and seen how good it was.
Having seen the Core version has got everyone going. I am not like stay awake at night worried lol not yet anyway, but it is a bit concerning, but i am also VERY excited at the same time. :jmp:
Tomb Raider Legend was not up to standard for me, but it was still an OK game, but hopefully they can learn from this.
If this game is done properly, it will be great. Plus Tomb Raider has many new fans since legend was made. Most of the kids around have never even played this game, and its not exactly easy to get your hands on a copy of it these days. Any games after this will have to live up to this standard! It will raise the bar! We desperately need a reminder of what Tomb Raider is all about. Desperately!!!!!!
I do think mostly, Crystal Dynamics are a good team, and i do think they will make a good version of this. I hope so anyway. As long as they dont change the game to any extent. When the screen shots come rolling in, and when we get to play the game, this will decide if Crystal Dynamics are up to the challenge of making Tomb Raider games, and i think the experiance of making this game will influence TR8.
The game has lost it, and Crystal WILL be the company who will make future TR games, but what they need is a reminder of what made it special. The game drastically needs to get back to the tombs and exploration. What better way to do it than this?
But its ten years, we have to do something!!!! right!!!!!m:yah: Its a celebration remember.
Great thread, TRL. I surely hope the CD developers are watching and listening to many of the things the true TR fan base are asking for in this long-awaited TR remake.
First and foremost, the people at CD need to realize that the original formula should not be changed much. Very slightly, but not much. The main thing that we want is graphics on par with 2006 standards. But the gameplay, enviroment design/length, music/sounds and overall control scheme MUST be kept in tact to the original.
I, too, am fairly worried, that ego alone will force the team at CD to try and "outdo" the original. Please, don't let pride and ego overide what this game is all about.
We don't need "hints".
Or Zip.
Or a "headset".
Or "interactive cutscenes".
Or "autograb".
Please don't dumb our game down!!
However, we do need to get our old athletic Lara back. You know, the one who can backflip and sideflip at will. The one who can "moon jump". We still want something akin to the grid based system, which works very, very well for a platform game. You can add the sprint function - and the sprint function while scaling walls was actually a very nice addition to TRL. However, leave out the "reticules" on the bad guys. You can add the monkey swing back in, please. And the rope grab/swing. And make sure Lara can duck and crawl. And make sure you put in a walk button option. And the dual pistols?? It wouldn't be TR without them.
AND GIVE US BACK FIRST PERSON LOOK. I can't believe you dropped it in TRL. And the unlimited backpack?? Put it back in. This is a game, not real life. Drop the linear motorcycle levels you had in TRL. They were BOORRIING.
PLEASE REMEMBER THAT TR IS NOT A "LINEAR" GAME. THAT WAS YOUR BIGGEST MISTAKE WITH TRL. We LIKE to be forced to explore and learn our enviroment in order to beat it. We LIKE the feeling of being all alone in a lost ancient world. We love the ambient sounds of the jungle/caves/etc.. And we absolutely LOVE the original TR score - especially the little music clip that plays when you find a secret!! Unbeatable.
Make the game LOOONNNGG. Real long. We like it that way. Challenge us. It used to take me months to finish a TR game the first time around. I loved to explore every nook and cranny. I loved being "stuck" wondering just what the heck I needed to do to complete a particular level. And when I finally did beat it, I felt like I actually accomplished something!
I am done with my little rant/ramble for now. I think it is obvious that the core (sorry, no pun intended) TR fanbase wants it's TR back, but with 2006 graphics. I have been hoping for a remake for years. I am very glad it is being done and I hope you take our wants/needs into very strong consideration.
Good luck and do a great job!
Am I the only person on this forum who thinks the direction Crystal are taking Tomb Raider in is the right one?
Tomb Raider needs change.
I love the original TR and TR2 but after that the series was dying a slow and painful death at the hands of Eidos - I realise it wasn't Cores fault because it was Eidos that forced them to use the same game engine for the last 6 games!
Crystal are trying new things for the series - gathering a new and growing fanbase of people to experience TR for the first time.
Catching up with the competition like Prince of Persia - the genre has evolved since the days of TR with games like POP and God Of War setting a new benchmark in platform/adventure games and TR is now catching up with them :p
But in all honesty I think in some ways Crystal have made a mistake in doing that, instead of copying POP they should have looked back into TR's own gameplay roots - ie the challenge of the enviroments around Lara and the puzzle solving aspects.
But POP is what todays platform/adventure games are measured by so I can understand Crystal having to make it like POP
Legend is the first attempt and I think Crystal will learn from there mistakes and make a better all round game for Tomb Raider 8! :)
As for the re-make it will be brilliant, just be glad Crystal are actually doing TR the re-make and not some suck-ass developer like EA!
Totally agree with you! :tmb:
TRhistorian
17-06-06, 15:14
Anyone concerned a remake could destroy the magic of the original games?
I am one of those. Maybe if it was Core, I would embrase it with open arms. But, even thogh I have said this thousands of times, it is not CD's place to touch it, even though Toby is on the team, I don't want them to touch it. They have no right.
konichi-wa
17-06-06, 15:25
nah, aslong as the braid and classic outfit are there (i guess the legend outfit could be an unlockable)
Any attempt to create the original game's mood, feel, and appearance will be welcome by me. Even if it flops, CD/Eidos will learn from the experience. I don't think it will flop as the maker of this game must know by now what was good about Legend that they can continue to work with, and what was bad about Legend and so needs to be eliminated. They would be fools to try to re-invent the original game into something that looks like Legend.
For the traditional gamers [I am one of them] you have to give a tad as well. Don't expect to hold to the old pc controls, or moan and grown about Lara's eye shadow. Look at the "big picture" and try to focus on the issues that must be changed to make the best game. The old controls were a major issue for most gamers [not me] so they had to be changed. Get used to a gamepad as I did. I have absolutely no problem now with the pad and it opened up a much more fluid Lara.
Change is going to happen, so the gamers have to move along with it. However, the developer has to realize that the bacon is in the original Lara Croft and Tomb Raider, not in reinventing a game that simply "has Lara in it". I think Eidos has the picture by now.
I'm not as worried as I was originally because,despite SCI.s attempt at a 'lock down' re: the trailer, I have it safely saved on my computer. Core have shown what is possible, placed the bar, so to speak. It now falls on crystals shoulders to jump that bar and it's a damn high one!:)
I don't doubt crystals programming ability in the slightest, and am confident that they could produce a FAITHFUL remake to rub shoulders with the taster we had from core.
I have my vid and my list and, like the white-bearded fat bloke, I WILL be checking it twice!
Also the term re-make by definition, to me, means rebuilding. Analargy:- Like you remake a classic ford escort. It looks a lot better but it's still a ford escort. It's not a skoda with training wheels and a ford escort badge stuck on.
Therefore my worries are not as bad as first thought.........but...............
There is this niggling little voice in my head that will not desist. I worry that the temptation to 'dumb down' for want of a better phrase will be too strong an SCI urge to resist. And I seriously hope that crystal resist the temptation to 'put thier stamp' on it. We know who is doing the remake now so there shoudn't be any need to tamper with the recipe other than to present it at it's jawdropping, head turning, the bride at the wedding best!
I'm not as worried as I was originally because,despite SCI.s attempt at a 'lock down' re: the trailer, I have it safely saved on my computer. Core have shown what is possible, placed the bar, so to speak. It now falls on crystals shoulders to jump that bar and it's a damn high one!:)
I don't doubt crystals programming ability in the slightest, and am confident that they could produce a FAITHFUL remake to rub shoulders with the taster we had from core.
I have my vid and my list and, like the white-bearded fat bloke, I WILL be checking it twice!
Also the term re-make by definition, to me, means rebuilding. Analargy:- Like you remake a classic ford escort. It looks a lot better but it's still a ford escort. It's not a skoda with training wheels and a ford escort badge stuck on.
Therefore my worries are not as bad as first thought.........but...............
There is this niggling little voice in my head that will not desist. I worry that the temptation to 'dumb down' for want of a better phrase will be too strong an SCI urge to resist. And I seriously hope that crystal resist the temptation to 'put thier stamp' on it. We know who is doing the remake now so there shoudn't be any need to tamper with the recipe other than to present it at it's jawdropping, head turning, the bride at the wedding best!
I agree with you! If CD's offering doesn't match up the potential (and I stress POTENTIAL - the trailer looked awesome, but we never will know what it played like), there is going to be trouble - it will forever be compared and will be overshadowed by a serious case of the 'what ifs'. Can they really risk that?
It's just the 'dumbing down' aspect that still scares me. TR1 was an intelligent game... please, allow the remake to be just as cerebral (even more so would be better... *drools at the thought of replacing simple lever combinations in Palace Midas with a real cipher or riddle to solve, as per Legend's mansion...*)
I agree with you! If CD's offering doesn't match up the potential (and I stress POTENTIAL - the trailer looked awesome, but we never will know what it played like), there is going to be trouble - it will forever be compared and will be overshadowed by a serious case of the 'what ifs'. Can they really risk that?
It's just the 'dumbing down' aspect that still scares me. TR1 was an intelligent game... please, allow the remake to be just as cerebral (even more so would be better... *drools at the thought of replacing simple lever combinations in Palace Midas with a real cipher or riddle to solve, as per Legend's mansion...*)
You teachers eh! Gotta have a bit of homework to do to get the trip out!God love ya :D
P.S. I gave up with the riddle in mansion, sorry miss!:( <goes and faces the corner>
Back on topic: As I said this little voice will not shut up and I fear its what will happen for financial i.e. more sales reasons
Elysia, rivendell, jamie, they nailed it down. I have the EXACT same fears and concerns. They are SERIOUS ones to be concerned of. PLEASE take note of that. The success legend had was due to a LOT of old time fans like us. We were expecting a TR game of the same length, difficulty and feeling of accomplishment we got from the old TR's. You missed the mark with legend, CD. We've gone over the flaws, so I won't annoy new fans with beating it to death. High points for you are the graphics, lara model, ease of controls. Low points for you are linear environments, far too easy traps and puzzels, way too short a game, no challenges, cut scenes, too many human enemies, shiney objects, on screen clues, headset, zip and alister, no fear, no isolation, no feeling of accomplishment.
But be sure you remain true to the original when making the anniversary game. It is very important to us. Important elements like fear, wonderment, shock, excitement, confusion, vertigo, being lost, HAVING to think our way thru it, and doing it ourselves HAVE to be in the game. You stand the chance of easily losing half the people that buy TR games if you blow it. Maybe more. As several have stated, this will be the first TR game I don't buy the second it hits the stores. I will read reviews, see what players have to say about it, RENT IT, before I decide to shell out hard earned cash on it. Be careful CD. Once bitten twice shy? More like fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on you. Or is that the other way around??? :p Mind is spinning... :tea:
Yes i really think it will wreck it for me. The original has always been not so good graphics Excellent story and memorable game play. Now there gonna legend our little TR out. gonna have her swinging on poles unlike the first one. even lara looks different. I hate the idea of this. just like that proverb there trying to fix or redo something that isnt broken and dosnt need to be redone in this manner. Why cant it be like the old TR? except new controls? same rooms and all that and no pole swinging. just be.... the classic with good graphics...
AdamTheInept
17-06-06, 19:17
There should totally be some "official" poll or something where we can go over the main points of contention and get a final visual on what the hardcore fans *coughuscough* would like to see and not see.
I'm pretty sure most of us agree that full analogue control like in legend suits the series now and should be incorporated.. but that:
-Side stepping and jumping
-longer jumps
-sprint
Should be brought back
And things like:
-Zip and Alister
-shiny thingies
-spinning targets
-RAD
-hints galore
...should be left out?
I remember when Undertaker had that really well done "Facts of TRL" back before it came out, and he kept updating and altering the info as more became available.
Maybe we need something like that.. There's so many threads similar to this where people are going off and on about pros and cons, and hopes and wishes.. if developers ARE going to peruse this forum... making a quick summary of the general wishes of the gamers might be a good idea..
And on the topic of "remake"... it should just be a new coat of icing. A major overhaul is uneccessary. The first two games are wonderful.. a SLIGHT update for modern times is all that is needed. I dont think CD has the gonads to alter what we hold so dear and would indubitably riot over.
Rivendell - I know how you feel.
*whispers, because she knows this is going to cause controvesy...*
What concerns me the most is that they will implement the Legend features (hints, headset, minimum exploration etc) out of sheer stubborn-ness. It doesn't take a genius (okay, imo) to see that TR1 is by FAR the superior game to Legend... if CD take this opportunity by the horns and make a truly fantastic remake of it, including original features (such as old swimming, longer jumps and same level of exploration), it is going to show up Legend BIG TIME... do you truly think they are going to do that? Make a remake that shows up their new 'flagship' game as the classic case of style over content that it is?
I think not... come on, why do you think Core's version got cancelled?! It wasn't because it looked crap, that's for sure. It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to figure out why Eidos pulled the plug...You know a part of me thought that too when this whole thing played itself out.
But, having worked in product development, admittedly NOT games development, this is really unlikely. Unless the company is run by morons.
What's more likely is (imo)... they're going to use the ideas/creativity of what the Core team have done for the remake as a bare bones template for the Crystal team to expand on.
This way, they get to keep the best ideas out of both teams, and have the option of making it a Core-style game (remember it was 80% complete...they got to see what it would have been...) if they need to.
But, most importantly, the credit goes to Crystal. Because that's really important for the brand's future now. They've sold off the Core team, Crystal are the brand owners and will be taking the TR franchise forward for the foreseeable future...
Just my imo of course.
fondantcookie
17-06-06, 20:38
Great thread, TRL. I surely hope the CD developers are watching and listening to many of the things the true TR fan base are asking for in this long-awaited TR remake.
First and foremost, the people at CD need to realize that the original formula should not be changed much. Very slightly, but not much. The main thing that we want is graphics on par with 2006 standards. But the gameplay, enviroment design/length, music/sounds and overall control scheme MUST be kept in tact to the original
I, too, am fairly worried, that ego alone will force the team at CD to try and "outdo" the original. Please, don't let pride and ego overide what this game is all about.
We don't need "hints".
Or Zip.
Or a "headset".
Or "interactive cutscenes".
Or "autograb".
Please don't dumb our game down!!
However, we do need to get our old athletic Lara back. You know, the one who can backflip and sideflip at will. The one who can "moon jump". We still want something akin to the grid based system, which works very, very well for a platform game. You can add the sprint function - and the sprint function while scaling walls was actually a very nice addition to TRL. However, leave out the "reticules" on the bad guys You can add the monkey swing back in, please. And the rope grab/swing. And make sure Lara can duck and crawl. And make sure you put in a walk button option. And the dual pistols?? It wouldn't be TR without them.
AND GIVE US BACK FIRST PERSON LOOK. I can't believe you dropped it in TRL. And the unlimited backpack?? Put it back in. This is a game, not real life. Drop the linear motorcycle levels you had in TRL. They were BOORRIING.
PLEASE REMEMBER THAT TR IS NOT A "LINEAR" GAME. THAT WAS YOUR BIGGEST MISTAKE WITH TRL. We LIKE to be forced to explore and learn our enviroment in order to beat it. We LIKE the feeling of being all alone in a lost ancient world. We love the ambient sounds of the jungle/caves/etc.. And we absolutely LOVE the original TR score - especially the little music clip that plays when you find a secret!! Unbeatable.
Make the game LOOONNNGG. Real long. We like it that way. Challenge us. It used to take me months to finish a TR game the first time around. I loved to explore every nook and cranny. I loved being "stuck" wondering just what the heck I needed to do to complete a particular level. And when I finally did beat it, I felt like I actually accomplished something!
I am done with my little rant/ramble for now. I think it is obvious that the core (sorry, no pun intended) TR fanbase wants it's TR back, but with 2006 graphics. I have been hoping for a remake for years. I am very glad it is being done and I hope you take our wants/needs into very strong consideration.
Good luck and do a great job!
I couldnt agree more.... Would have written a whole post myself...but you did it so well theres no need !!:D
I couldnt agree more.... Would have written a whole post myself...but you did it so well theres no need !!:D
Why, thank you very much!!
I just hope CD takes our concerns to heart. TR 1 or 2 with Legend gameplay is practically useless, IMHO.
I hope the folks at CD do not take our feelings personal though. Hurt feelings and egos would not bode well for the remake. I'm very glad it is being remade. I just hope it is being done with the original TR gameplay as the foundation. That is the main point I think we are trying to make here. And I hope they understand that.
One thing this thread really highlights is we're all more excited about a remake of game (that I've played loads of time) than the latest game, Legend.
If I was Eidos I'd be asking very tough questions about future directions now in response to this. I hope they are anyway. Legend is a success, and the new direction of TR...and yet lots of people don't want the TR1 remake to be anything like it...
How good can it really be considered to be?
illuminati30
17-06-06, 20:57
One thing this thread really highlights is we're all more excited about a remake of game (that I've played loads of time) than the latest game, Legend.
If I was Eidos I'd be asking very tough questions about future directions now in response to this. I hope they are anyway. Legend is a success, and the new direction of TR...and yet lots of people don't want the TR1 remake to be anything like it...
How good can it really be considered to be?
Good point :tmb:
AdamTheInept
17-06-06, 21:16
there was a quote of a long request on the previous page, and i pretty much agree with it entirely.... EXCEPT for
-interactive cutscenes being...cut
-grid-based
The cutscenes just need to be used better... maybe made harder and more edge of your seat.
I thought control was superb in Legend... but i very much missed moonjumping and flipping all over the place during a gun fight. I LOVE running to a slidey part, jumping on it, sliding, backflipping off, twisting in midair, and running the opposite direction with guns blazing... good times. I think they could find a nice medium between free movement that was quick and intuitive (NOT controlling Lara like she's a car) but also incorporated things that the grid based system allowed.. like a long runnning jump and the sort.
thepetemaster
17-06-06, 21:40
I was thinking along the same lines Blackmoor - well said.
It doesnt make sense for Eidos to let CD spend three years making Legend, then construct a fresh new engine for the REMAKE, only to scrap it and move on to TR8 using the same engine that sold millions of copies for them.(They must have realised when the 10th anniversary was !!) I think that TR remake will probably use the same engine due to time constraints. Eidos is pretty renowned for releasing games late - how silly is a TR "10th" anniversary going to look when it is released 11 years later. Will it be rushed out for Christmas - you bet. (Something the CD guys said they wouldnt do as they had learned from Cores mistakes) I can hear the cash registers already *kerching*. It will be even more suspicious if the game is released without being reveiwed in the press - a very telling sign usually. This game will certainly be a nice little earner for them for another fiscal year - allowing them to release TR8 smack in time for the Christmas after.
Why keep it a secret though and not show anything at this years E3? Seems very suspicious to me. The press would have been very interested in this - boosting sales no end. No screenshots yet, and this is meant to be out in a few months. I could understand if this was a brand new game - even a sequel ala TR8, but it is JUST a remake.
If the Legend engine IS kept - then there will be radical omissions from the remake for playabilities sake (this would only make sense from CD's point of view)- that I can assure you. The old game just won't translate with the new engine. I am on the other hand fairly confident that the likes of zip and allister will thankfully be left on the sidelines - due to the lack of time that is left to get this thing out on time. Lavish extras - forget about those aswell. This remake is not going to be a celebration of Tr - merely an excuse to get some more cash out of us. If all they could come up with in 3 years was Legend - think about it.
I could be wrong - but these are some of the concerns/suspicions that I genuinely feel. As far as CD and Eidos are concerned TRL has been a huge success - look at the numbers and the glowing reviews. I cant see them to willing to tinker with their new hit formula very much at all. In the newest press release they said - TR Remake will be a game that will remain loyal to the old Tomb Raider - that will both please fans of the old games and attract even more new fans... hmmmm now where have I heard that before?
Lavish extras - forget about those aswell.
This remake is not going to be a celebration of Tr - merely an excuse to get some more cash out of us. If all they could come up with in 3 years was Legend - think about it.
I could be wrong - but these are some of the concerns/suspicions that I genuinely feel. As far as CD and Eidos are concerned TRL has been a huge success - look at the numbers and the glowing reviews. I cant see them to willing to tinker with their new hit formula very much at all. In the newest press release they said - TR Remake will be a game that will remain loyal to the old Tomb Raider - that will both please fans of the old games and attract even more new fans... hmmmm now where have I heard that before?Such wisdom is said, yet hardly anyone hears it...well said too. :tmb: I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks 3 years for Legend is a bit... :whistle:
thepetemaster, your whole post basically sums up my worries and concerns. I don't know how long Crystal D have been making the anniversary edition, or why nothing was shown at E3 this year? The only reason I can think of was that they finally 'decided' to make the game after E3, and if that is the case, I'd be worried about it coming out before Christmas this year... I don't want another rushed game.
Also, I don't want them to use the legend engine, as you have said, TR1 wont translate properly into the new engine... levels will probably pan out in a different way, swinging poles come to mind.... However, I am about 70% sure they will use the legend engine... ahhhh
fondantcookie
17-06-06, 22:21
Such wisdom is said, yet hardly anyone hears it...well said too. :tmb: I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks 3 years for Legend is a bit... :whistle:
Dont you worry Blackmoor...you certainly aren't the only one!!!
After completing Legend the first time I always wondered how exactly it took them three years....
I mean, AOD took three years...and was about 5 times as long as legend, and wasn't even completed....
Catapharact
17-06-06, 22:25
Hmmm, a remake may not be that big of a disaster.
Case and Point: Metal Gear Solid; The Twin Snakes. They kept the same story line but revamped the graphics and the game play. The Twin Snakes offered whole new options including the much appreciated first-person shhoter mode and more quick responsing AI.
It was well worth the play.
You bring up very valid points thepetemaster! Well be watching... carefully! :pi:
*buys more rope*
thepetemaster
17-06-06, 23:15
Twin snakes was made by Konami though wasn't it? Didn't they also make the original and only a few years apart? Same goes for the Res Evil Remake ( although slightly farther apart) - here (with TR ) we are talking about one company making another version of SOMEONE ELSES game and starting afresh. I don't think it is entirely the same thing as you were talking about Cataphract.
Dont you worry Blackmoor...you certainly aren't the only one!!! Lol. ;) Just one question I wanted to ask you...was TR3 your favourite TR too by any chance? Just testing.
fondantcookie
17-06-06, 23:53
Lol. ;) Just one question I wanted to ask you...was TR3 your favourite TR too by any chance? Just testing.
IT WAS !!!!!
How did you know ? hehe
IT WAS !!!!!
How did you know ? hehe
Favourite bits = London levels...?
Don't freak me out here!!
Robsters85
18-06-06, 00:03
i don't get why people say young people won't play the orginal tomb raider games.
i am glad 1 and 2 are being remade as i bought copies of all 7 tomb raider games for my younger couins, there favourite is number 3 and 4 and aod believe it or not.
they didn't like the mouse in legend (having to operate the camera) they found this differcult and asked me to turn it off but you can't sadly
i think auto camera should be back so don't need your hand on the mouse the whole time.
overall they loved legend but i think it shows if make younger kids play all the games that the classics had best controls and ideas etc and i personally think tomb raider peaked and tomb raider 3 then started its decline
Rob
p.s 1 and 2 are my personal fav but i think they are only 2 that are most dated now sadly but i wonder if a decade pack like c&c be better to mark the occasion than a remake
fondantcookie
18-06-06, 00:12
Favourite bits = London levels...?
Don't freak me out here!!
Haha... I've never actually thought about my 'favourite area'...
But...I class Aldwych as one of the best TR levels of all time: Great atmosphere, challenging, and LONG !!!
And Thames Wharf was also amazing !!! Luds gate....INCREDIBLY difficult, and lots of WATER (As you already know, The Ship levels are my favourite level of TR2) !!!!.... So yep, thumbs up to Luds Gate :P
So yes...i LOVE LONDON...
But I also love Jungle and Lost City of Tinnos.... two other great atmospheric levels... :D
Haha... I've never actually thought about my 'favourite area'...
But...I class Aldwych as one of the best TR levels of all time: Great atmosphere, challenging, and LONG !!!
And Thames Wharf was also amazing !!! Luds gate....INCREDIBLY difficult, and lots of WATER (As you already know, The Ship levels are my favourite level of TR2) !!!!.... So yep, thumbs up to Luds Gate :P
So yes...i LOVE LONDON...
But I also love Jungle and Lost City of Tinnos.... two other great atmospheric levels... :DMmmm, me too. I voted on Aldwych on the TR3 favourite level poll on this site!!! I love those London levels, but I also love India (I was going to mention them too) and the Lost City of Tinnos with the freaky monsters around every corner. Although I do like Nevada a lot too with the planes flying over so...slight difference there.
The ship levels are my favourites in TR2 too, especially the Wreck of the Maria Dora and the Deck.
Overall, wow, we are quite alike. :D
WhosaidAODwasbad
18-06-06, 00:33
Lud's Gate, Lost City of Tinnos is a good but scary one!
Crash site is probably my favorite though of TR3!
My favorite overall though is probably Karnak or Lost Library!
Stop it you two! Your making me all misty! :ton:
*goes and pets full collection of TR games* :hug:
WhosaidAODwasbad
18-06-06, 00:39
Whosaidaodwasbad, has been decommissioned from the TR Forums! From some odd reason an Asylm took him in because of continually gnawing on his Tomb Raider cases and discs! In effect he thought if he could eat Tomb Raider he would be come one and live happy forever with lara!
"HEY, I don't see anything wrong with that do YOu!"
Doctor begins to gnaw on his Micheal Jackson's Greatest Hits Collection disc!
fondantcookie
18-06-06, 00:57
Sorry double Post...
fondantcookie
18-06-06, 00:57
Mmmm, me too. I voted on Aldwych on the TR3 favourite level poll on this site!!! I love those London levels, but I also love India (I was going to mention them too) and the Lost City of Tinnos with the freaky monsters around every corner. Although I do like Nevada a lot too with the planes flying over so...slight difference there.
The ship levels are my favourites in TR2 too, especially the Wreck of the Maria Dora and the Deck.
Overall, wow, we are quite alike. :D
Haha..... I also love Nevada Desert....
And Area 51 was the demo level which i played over and over and over again.... So we have a special bond !!!
Not really a fan of High Security Compound though... I remember getting extremely frustrated with that level...
And in relation to the Best TR3 poll... It was too hard to pick...i class Jungle, Aldwych, Nevada and Lost City as the best levels in TR3.... But i think i chose Jungle in the end....
Heres hoping CD do a good job of this remake...and finally learn what real Tomb Raiding is all about :D :D :D (And maybe remake TR3 also :D:D:D)
Anyone concerned a remake could destroy the magic of the original games?
Possibly.
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/images/icons/icon5.gif Old Chinese proverb - If it aint broke, don't fix it!
I agree, but it's ok to polish it :D
Lost_Raider
18-06-06, 02:04
Anyone concerned a remake could destroy the magic of the original games?
From my personal experience...yeah...
And also, I never heard of that Chinese proverb...it doesn't fit the culture...
I was thinking along the same lines Blackmoor - well said.
It doesnt make sense for Eidos to let CD spend three years making Legend, then construct a fresh new engine for the REMAKE, only to scrap it and move on to TR8 using the same engine that sold millions of copies for them.(They must have realised when the 10th anniversary was !!) I think that TR remake will probably use the same engine due to time constraints. Eidos is pretty renowned for releasing games late - how silly is a TR "10th" anniversary going to look when it is released 11 years later. Will it be rushed out for Christmas - you bet. (Something the CD guys said they wouldnt do as they had learned from Cores mistakes) I can hear the cash registers already *kerching*. It will be even more suspicious if the game is released without being reveiwed in the press - a very telling sign usually. This game will certainly be a nice little earner for them for another fiscal year - allowing them to release TR8 smack in time for the Christmas after.
Why keep it a secret though and not show anything at this years E3? Seems very suspicious to me. The press would have been very interested in this - boosting sales no end. No screenshots yet, and this is meant to be out in a few months. I could understand if this was a brand new game - even a sequel ala TR8, but it is JUST a remake.
If the Legend engine IS kept - then there will be radical omissions from the remake for playabilities sake (this would only make sense from CD's point of view)- that I can assure you. The old game just won't translate with the new engine. I am on the other hand fairly confident that the likes of zip and allister will thankfully be left on the sidelines - due to the lack of time that is left to get this thing out on time. Lavish extras - forget about those aswell. This remake is not going to be a celebration of Tr - merely an excuse to get some more cash out of us. If all they could come up with in 3 years was Legend - think about it.
I could be wrong - but these are some of the concerns/suspicions that I genuinely feel. As far as CD and Eidos are concerned TRL has been a huge success - look at the numbers and the glowing reviews. I cant see them to willing to tinker with their new hit formula very much at all. In the newest press release they said - TR Remake will be a game that will remain loyal to the old Tomb Raider - that will both please fans of the old games and attract even more new fans... hmmmm now where have I heard that before?
Great post!!!!
I couldn't agree more.
One thing that bugs me about Eidos is that they always keep everything close to their chest.
I (and a lot of other people) would appreciate some sort of explanation - I don't care if it's only three flipping lines.
They never give anything away, and that's when all the wild speculation kicks in.
AdamTheInept
18-06-06, 04:24
Im sure they like it. It gives them power.
Imagine Mr.Edios or MR.Suit or whomever sitting high atop the thousandth floor of Eidos Incorporated laughing maniacally, "BWAHAHA!! I will give those fanboys as little info as possible and watch them scramble about the interweb like little ants!! INSECTS!!! YOU ARE INSECTS AND I AM YOUR GOD!! BWAHAHAHA!!!"
yeh. i can visualize it.
l am confident that if Crystal Dynamics wanted to they could create a truley awesome game, that would still be true to the original. However it is this line in the official statement that has me worried "it will appeal not only to the loyal fans of the Tomb Raider series but will also attract a totally new audience.” The attracting of a totally new audience, l care nothing for the newbies, this should be a game for the loyal fans, the true fans of the old traditional style of Tomb Raiding. l do not want some dumbed down, one tracked remake with hints every 2 minutes. If they have to put hints in so that every Tom, Dick and Harriet can feel happy about being able to finish the game, it had better be a feature that can be turned off! That being said l am sure they could remake the game, using a modified Legend engine stay faithfill to the original and yet put a few suprises in there for those who know the original back the front. At the time the first game was made there were many things that could not be translated into gameplay, and so they covered these areas in some of the FMV's, possibly a few things were even left out because of these restrictions, and if they were to be added in the remake l for one would not mind. With the ease of movement and loss of the grid system, they will have to add a few extra obstacles and paths in order to make the game play a bit harder. Even in the Core version they were going to have things that were not in the original, it is inevitable with a remake. l thought the music and sound effects of the original game helped no end to add to the atmosphere of the game, and hopefully they will return in the remake relatively unchanged. And even if Crystal Dynamics some how manage to stuff it up, l will still have my original, and will happily play that (now l finally have it working):D
Okay, honestly all of you people who are bashing CD are making me mad. You talk about Legend like it's some disgusting atrocity that should be obliterated from the face of the earth and Core should be allowed to turn Lara into the tank that she was before. Well I have news for you guys. Even though there was much more freeform exploration in Tomb Raider 1, Legend runs circles around the first in terms of gameplay. Yes I said it. Let the bashing begin. It was such a blast having Lara jumping around, swinging to and fro, and leaping from ledge to ledge in Legend. And for the most part these moves were executed with the touch of a button. Now the reason I can barely stand to play the early Tomb Raider games (the first I've had for 10 years now) is because it's a ***** to control. It's just not fun at all compared to the swift ballet-like control of Legend. Now, I agree that the remake should keep a lot of the things the original had (more exploration, no headset, longer campaign) it has to progress in terms of gameplay to be even remotely fun. The endless lock and key puzzles ARE NOT FUN ANY MORE, having 6 steps to follow just to make Lara leap across a chasm is just idiotic, and Lara jumping 6 feet into the air is ridiculous and extremely unrealistic. The remake needs to be upgraded more than just graphics people. You need to accept that.
thepetemaster
18-06-06, 05:41
Adamtheinept - lmao well done
Piercebm - rip my bloody eyes/hair out :)
Look the difficulty in these games can be as high as they like - while still enjoyable - it makes no sense for CD to make games that are sooo easy they cater to every halfwit out there who cant even tie their shoes - let alone figure one of the old lock/key puzzles out without getting stuck and throwing a tantrum. If the game has the same difficulty as before and lots of new people get stuck - HELLO, MCFLY! interested in my lovely walkthrough £14.99 KERCHING KERCHING - it really is better for EIdos man hahaha
You need to accept that.
Errr, no, sorry, but I don't.
Okay, honestly all of you people who are bashing CD are making me mad. You talk about Legend like it's some disgusting atrocity that should be obliterated from the face of the earth and Core should be allowed to turn Lara into the tank that she was before. Well I have news for you guys. Even though there was much more freeform exploration in Tomb Raider 1, Legend runs circles around the first in terms of gameplay. Yes I said it. Let the bashing begin. It was such a blast having Lara jumping around, swinging to and fro, and leaping from ledge to ledge in Legend. And for the most part these moves were executed with the touch of a button. Now the reason I can barely stand to play the early Tomb Raider games (the first I've had for 10 years now) is because it's a ***** to control. It's just not fun at all compared to the swift ballet-like control of Legend. Now, I agree that the remake should keep a lot of the things the original had (more exploration, no headset, longer campaign) it has to progress in terms of gameplay to be even remotely fun. The endless lock and key puzzles ARE NOT FUN ANY MORE, having 6 steps to follow just to make Lara leap across a chasm is just idiotic, and Lara jumping 6 feet into the air is ridiculous and extremely unrealistic. The remake needs to be upgraded more than just graphics people.
In your opinion.
In my opinion, Legend was fine as a generic actioner, but lacked severely in the intelligence department. Lara moves well in Legend - as she should in a game made in 2006. Great. She is also starring in a game a concussed 5 year old could figure out and play. Not so great.
Tomb Raider had a certain class to it - a certain reputation to hold up. It had a reputation for being a challenging game that involved a little of the old grey matter to be engaged. Legend has sadly changed that. When the graphics have dated and an even newer, more interactive and fluid control system has been developed and Legend looks a bit saggy around the edges - kind of like the place TR1 is now (considering TR1 was, at the time, simply the most beautiful, fluid 3D game out on the market)... what does it truly have to entice people back to play it? Interesting puzzles? Atmospheric levels? A beautiful sense of isolation, tension and immersion?
No. It has a chattering headset, big shiny hints, some blocks to push around (the new lock and key puzz... oh, hang on! Pushing block puzzles were in the clasics, too! In fact, pushing block puzzles were the most maligned part of the Tomb Raider series. Nice to see Legend corrected that...) and some bars to swing on. I have never played a Tomb Raider game that is so devoid of intelligence, atmosphere and tension. For a Saturday night after-the-pub run around, it's a blast. For a couple of weeks solid, dedicated Tomb Raiding... it is severely lacking.
This is in my opinion, of course. You don't need to accept that.
Oh, and it was 3 steps before the big leaps. Not 6...
The remake does NOT need the grid system. Prince of Persia has proved you can have an easy control scheme and still have a challenge with the platforming/acrobatics. The classic controls worked well for the older games at the time, but with today's technology it wouldn't work. AOD is a good example of this. I don't see the point in bringing back moves like sidestepping or the reverse roll comming back either. We have an analog stick now. There's no need to waste 3 or so buttons on moves that even a 4 year old can perform.
What does need to be changed is the level design. The last game to feature a huge explorable area was the Last Revelation. Since then every game that's been out to date have just featured a bunch of small rooms connected by one path.
Another thing is the support team. It doesn't need to be brought back. If CD feel the need it has to come back, keep it like Metal Gear Solid's codec. If gamers are having trouble they should be able to select the radio themselves with the Start/Select button. The experience shouldn't be ruined for hardcore gamers who are smart enough to figure things out themselves. It's not just Zip blabbing out the answer that gets on my nerves, it's the stupid random comments like "Whoooo-hooo-hooo" whenever there's a jump or explosion. It would be nice to be able to play the game without the support team yelling out random comments in our ear.
CD just need to focus on bringing back the gameplay and atmosphere we all loved in the original.
The remake does NOT need the grid system. Prince of Persia has proved you can have an easy control scheme and still have a challenge with the platforming/acrobatics. The classic controls worked well for the older games at the time, but with today's technology it wouldn't work. AOD is a good example of this. I don't see the point in bringing back moves like sidestepping or the reverse roll comming back either. We have an analog stick now. There's no need to waste 3 or so buttons on moves that even a 4 year old can perform.
What does need to be changed is the level design. The last game to feature a huge explorable area was the Last Revelation. Since then every game that's been out to date have just featured a bunch of small rooms connected by one path.
Another thing is the support team. It doesn't need to be brought back. If CD feel the need it has to come back, keep it like Metal Gear Solid's codec. If gamers are having trouble they should be able to select the radio themselves with the Start/Select button. The experience shouldn't be ruined for hardcore gamers who are smart enough to figure things out themselves. It's not just Zip blabbing out the answer that gets on my nerves, it's the stupid random comments like "Whoooo-hooo-hooo" whenever there's a jump or explosion. It would be nice to be able to play the game without the support team yelling out random comments in our ear.
CD just need to focus on bringing back the gameplay and atmosphere we all loved in the original.
Mr. X - :tmb:
Yep - actually, I would personally be more interested in a remake of the 'we've put together some TR1-esque levels - stuck to the same story and locations, but have approached them from a slightly different angle' kind. I love TR1 - but I know it back to front (and in some places - with my eyes closed). Having the same huge, atmospheric levels with the same enemies and locations but with slightly different level design and puzzle solutions (and dare I say it - different puzzles entirely) would really put a new spin on the TR1 story. Then TR1 doesn't become redundant (because it is still one of the best games ever made, imo) and we get to experience that good old 'TR1 feeling' all over again from scratch! (And CD get to learn how to build really, really good TR levels by modelling them, not by copying - and modelling is a far more effective for the learning process than copying any day).
Just imagine - The City / Obelisk of Khamoon with a different solution. You still have to hunt down the artefacts to open the gates, but this time round you don't know where they are, nor how to solve the puzzles to get to them. More to the point - you know there are mummies, but you don't know *where* they are anymore, so there's no way to prepare yourself...
*clunk*...*clunk*...*clunk*.... Uuuuuuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhhhh....
:D
thepetemaster
18-06-06, 08:04
Im still in favour of a re-arrange mode - like they had in the various versions of resident evil - random placement of keys etc - would improve the challenge on subsequent replays for sure
I agree, a slight twist to where things are laid out, where you can find stuff, where attacks come from would be welcome. It would be too easy to simply repete the moves we know to get what we want. Maybe when good old t-rex attacks we won't have the caves where they were to duck into! :eek: Quick, what do you do? Scramble, shoot and try to duck for cover, but where? Think fast on your feet moment!
Oh, and to the person that feels a 6 foot jump is unrealistic. Come on, my stride walking is between 2 and 3 feet, I can jump at least 4 feet from a stand still. A running jump for 6 feet is not un realistic. I could do it and I'm out of shape. :ton: Time to put the oreos away and get off that couch!
thepetemaster
18-06-06, 09:16
A 6ft jump is unrealistic!! What about the atlanteans and the boss fight and natla changing into a demon - totally realistic I suppose!!
A 6ft jump is unrealistic!! What about the atlanteans and the boss fight and natla changing into a demon - totally realistic I suppose!!
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure, I see that every day! You should see my boss in the mornings! :ton:
Tlr,you amaze me with your deep knowledge of oriental wisdom!
Well...I was thinking about that,too. From what I know about TR1,this game was a touchstone back in 1996,due to the technology ,graphics,plot,Lara :D,etc. Would a remake be the same thing,now? And what's the point of a remake? Copying the original project ,but with modern technology? In cinema ,an actual remake - not the Hollywood re-murders of great fims- is meant to be a new approach to an old film, the presentation of a new vision.That's what justifies a remake.
But,in order to be sincere,I loved Legend,but I'm sure this game wasn't the the same thing Tr1 was back in 1996 . I'm pretty sure the original game was more revolutionary back then than the new one.
Besides,Tr1 was from Core. Will CD choose the cinematographic approach, and presenting their own vision ,or take the more secure road,and,in order not to disappoint the fans,will impose itself a enhanced copy?
The same man who created TR in now with CD,and I believe Toby,better than anyone,will know how to remake its own creation:10 years is a lot of time,people change and i'm sure he's not the same man he was back then,but of course he's still Toby,lol.So,why should TR be exactly the same it was before?
I think,more than the commercial aspect,there are some personal aspects involved,or that illegal trailer wouldn't have appeared. Perhaps the remake will be the result of the solution the parts involved found for those personal conflicts.
Oh, and it was 3 steps before the big leaps. Not 6...
Tomb Raider 1
1. Walk to the edge until she stops.
2. Tap backwards.
3. Run to the edge.
4. Hold jump.
5. Hold action button while in mid-air.
6. Press up.
:ton:
Legend:
1. Run to the ledge.
2. Tap jump.
3. Tap jump again.
I think I prefer the latter.
And where in my post does it say I want a dumbed down version of Tomb Raider? All I said was I preferred Legends controls. Accept THAT. And I will admit Legend had a lot of block puzzles, but they are much more intricate than finding a key and finding a locked door. And God forbid you try to unlock a door on the other side of a level, find out it's the wrong one, and have to go all the way back to find the real door.
On a different matter, I agree with the people who say the remake should be a remix of the first game. Having remixed levels and updated puzzles but keeping memorable landmarks would be great. The Obelisk and the Sphinx would be INCREADIBLE brought to life with Legend's graphic engine.
Oh and...
A 6ft jump is unrealistic!! What about the atlanteans and the boss fight and natla changing into a demon - totally realistic I suppose!!
quit being patronizing. You know I meant a 6ft. jump is unrealistic for a human.
thepetemaster
18-06-06, 19:20
pierce - this is a game - it isnt real life - its meant to be fun.
If you want realistic - then most of legend should be scrapped. Stop being a realism-nazi and get over it.
Look how in legend the jumps were so low - then look at how she is flying around rooftops on motorbikes and backflipping off moving trucks etc etc - you cant have it all one way - I personally want Lara to be larger than life and do incredible stuff - thats why I play the game in the first place.
And any person who is good at TR1 - can just
1. Run to the ledge.
2. Tap jump.
3. Hold grab - and press up
not much difference there
Well if we're talking realism, what about that grapple fgs...??!!
And comms systems that work in deep underground caves, including water...!!!
Don't get me started...Lol. :D
Yes petemaster, once again an excellent viewpoint.
I want Lara to be unrealistic- she' (or Tomb Raider) has Never been realistic.
Huge jumps, infinite pistols, finding medipacks in ancient tombs, Atlantis, Dragons, Spiderpeople, Seth/Horus , Nephilim for that matter, and Yes- even Excalibur and Avalon.
And if you're going after Realisticity in legend -
-Opening clip Lara jumps off a precipice and falls about 30 foot before grabbing a ledge with one hand and pulling up into a handstand.
-Leave her hanging on a ledge forever if you want, put the controller down, go for a drive, come back - she's still hanging on! Thank you Autograb !
- Infinite pistol ammo again
- Excalibur, Avalon, Unknown Entity
- Vanishing corpses
There's just as much in legend when you root through it - why CD are opting to try and be 'realistic' is beyond me - Tomb Raider isn't realistic, don't make it what it's not.
thepetemaster
18-06-06, 19:36
-Leave her hanging on a ledge forever if you want, put the controller down, go for a drive, come back - she's still hanging on! Thank you Autograb !
.
Lmao - well said riv. :)
There is a line to be drawn somewhere though, don't you think? It's just a case of where.
I mean, I want water to sound and splash like real water. And lara's blood to be red, and leaves to fall from trees, and nice refracted light through glades, etc, etc. Having some realism adds verisimilitude to the experience, don't you find?
thepetemaster
18-06-06, 19:47
I agree Blackmoor - realism in the enviroment itself, the atmosphere and physics is where the emphasis should be. The realism in Laras movements - while being within reason - should be slighty exaggerated. (acrobatics, unlimted backpack/pistol ammo etc). Enemies also should still be a mix of the real - ie endangered speices :) and also fantastical - ie Trex and atlanteans etc (where the remake is concerned) and include some variety wherever possible.
Catapharact
18-06-06, 19:55
Offtopic:
Seriously, most of you need to place your well informed and learned Butts in the General Chat thread. It gets tiring reading the same mofo clutter again and again.
General Chat needs you.
I agree Blackmoor - realism in the enviroment itself, the atmosphere and physics is where the emphasis should be. The realism in Laras movements - while being within reason - should be slighty exaggerated. (acrobatics, unlimted backpack/pistol ammo etc). Enemies also should still be a mix of the real - ie endangered speices :) and also fantastical - ie Trex and atlanteans etc (where the remake is concerned) and include some variety wherever possible.Couldn't agree more petemaster. :tmb:
I guess I just can't win :). Lara should be exaggerated, but not so that it's ridiculous. That's where I'm going to end it. One thing I always wondered about Lara is that she always seemed to be an endangered species hunter (the T-Rex is OBVIOUSLY endangered but I'll forgive her for that ;)). I found it kind of horrible when Lara had to kill those adorable little monkeys in TR3. Albeit they were annoying little buggers, but they just wanted to play with her medipacks for a little while. As prude-ish as it sounds I think we should have a list of species that aren’t endangered and let Crystal D have a look at it. "Hmmm... Let’s see... do you reckon Dobermans are on the list? No? Then put about 20 of them in Tomb Raider 8!"
I do miss Lara's ammo ability with unlimited storage in the backpack. The way I see it, she/I earned it, so give it to us, gosh darn it! LOL
Also, while Legend Lara has some pretty significant acrobatic movements, I do miss the long jumps, fast runs and the ability to do back-flips and side-flips.
WhosaidAODwasbad
19-06-06, 00:45
The remake should be a complement to the original so in other words should add new cool things but not things that defined legend! So yeah a motorbike level would be nice and it would be complementary because the original game did have a bike you just can't ride it. Now Alister , Zip, the grapple, a bunch of Mercs would not be good and overbearing to the original it just isn't the first game! But some of the puzzle and traps just harder ones would be because that is original Tomb Raider just new to us! The back pack could go either way, and the control system is defintley a must from legend at least I think.
Oh and TRBeth on the Side flips lara doesn't need them anymore at least for puzzles because she handles so good now, but she does in combat. But we do need backflips all the time! Didn't really like the sprint button though in the newer tRs I think we can do with out just make her run when we press all the way, jog when we go half way, and walk when we barely touch the game pad. Long jumps should be back, Legend was a bit to realistic, but If i could jump just a little bit farther! I wonder how they are dealing with this in the remake, since there are so many big jumps especially in ST. Francis Folly. ARe they going to make the room smaller horinzontally or are they going to make her jump farther?!
JamesFKirk
19-06-06, 08:43
Truth to be told, I am not worried. I hardly doubt that serious changes will be made (except for next-gen graphics and 3dsound processing) since therefore it wouldn't be a remake actually. Serious changes in gameplay would make it something different than TR1 and that's not what they say they are making. Of course, changes will be made (like a different voice for Lara, added flares, that I do expect) but most of them will not be devastating for gameplay. I was really sattisfied with Legend since (for me) it had that TR feeling that I was missing since TRLR. The people that build something that succesful and that do listen to the fans (we know that - it's been proven that they do come here and read what is written) won't really want to go against them (at least as long as John Romero doesn't have his say in the process, I might add - luckily he isn't nowhere near the TR franchise).
Howgh, I have spoken.
EDIT: The thread killer did it again!
interstellardave
19-06-06, 11:26
Is the forum really going to be like this all the way up until this game is released? Seriously, if it is, count me out. Not because differing opinions aren't valid or anything like that! It's just that people are getting themselves too worked up over this! Don't lose sleep--or hair :cln: --over a game until you know whether it's going to be as bad as you may fear! Worrying won't do anyone any good, so try and be a little positive for your own inner peace! That way, no matter how the game turns out, at least by being positive about it you will have saved yourself months of unnecessary grief! :hug:
Now feel free to bash me! :p
*hugs dave* :hug:
Damn, still sweaty, please wipe down with a towel, would ya? :ton:
interstellardave
19-06-06, 11:51
*hugs dave* :hug:
Damn, still sweaty, please wipe down with a towel, would ya? :ton:
I'll give you a towel... but you can do the wiping! :p If you were thevwoman then maybe it'd be different!
Touche! :tmb: Glad to see someone in a happy playful mood around here! :D Lots of gloom and doom around here. I agree with ya dave, lets see what we get before judging it.
Is the forum really going to be like this all the way up until this game is released? Seriously, if it is, count me out. Not because differing opinions aren't valid or anything like that! It's just that people are getting themselves too worked up over this! Don't lose sleep--or hair :cln: --over a game until you know whether it's going to be as bad as you may fear! Worrying won't do anyone any good, so try and be a little positive for your own inner peace! That way, no matter how the game turns out, at least by being positive about it you will have saved yourself months of unnecessary grief! :hug:
Now feel free to bash me! :pHehehe, *wallop*
:D
Interstellardave is right. People are getting way too worked up over what Ei-do$h has done with our TR whilst trying to fleece every last £, $, euro and yen from our hands, pockets and backs of sofa's. Greed is Good.
Just kidding. :D
Personally I think Crystal will do a fine job. It'll be better than what we've seen already is my bet. Especially because we've managed to see it, if you know what I mean. ;)
Serious changes in gameplay would make it something different than TR1 and that's not what they say they are making.
Yes but, without changes in gameplay it wouldn't be a remake. Look at it this way; a prettied up verson of TR1 won't make the game any more fun to play. So if there aren't any gameplay changes the remake would just be a rehash of the first game. I personally adore the gameplay in Legend and hope CD will incorporate that into the anniversary edition. Oh and I'm a thread killer on the GameSpot forums. LoL:D
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