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BlackGrey
08-09-06, 19:52
After reading posts in the future tomb raider games section of the forum I realise, a lot more gamers want more freedom in their games, a longer experience and to have a sense of real achievement. So do you think that Publishers ...(Kind of like fat people, who want to sell games for food. So an image of a pig is good to keep in mind.)... Will let their little Game Developer's... (Imagine a Jaba-the-hut image here and Game developer's being chained to their side.)... on their leads bound forth into the golden age of free-roaming and photo-realistic beauty or keep the same old short-sharp-thrill rides? Hope I made sense :p

jarhead
08-09-06, 20:00
I got lost with the bracket bits but i think i get what your on about.

I think the newer generation of games should be bigger and longer. A larger envirnment allows for more short indidvual thrill rides, and more reply value. i think games will get longer and longer as the technology imporves, quality over quantity and all but i think most gamers would like a compromise half way, well thats what i would want. although a short thrill ride is great, a longer game with many smaller thrill rides would be equally if not better as it could be seen as many smaller games put together as one

tr_mitch
08-09-06, 20:52
I definatley prefer free roam games, To ones where you just have missions.
I guess you feel a lot more for the character.

Angel666
08-09-06, 21:34
I would like a compromise. I would like bigger games that give more freedom but I don't want to be lost without any idea of what to do.

Lord Icon
08-09-06, 22:02
I definatley prefer free roam games...

So do I. It's more interesting to explore than just to follow a predefined path.

...To ones where you just have missions.

Actually they all have some kind of mission. Usually is to "get from point A to point B and don't get killed". The way of accomplishing that differs. It would be either by blasting your way through, by finding and solving puzzles to unlock the next world/location or by combination of those.

tr_mitch
08-09-06, 22:08
Actually they all have some kind of mission. Usually is to "get from point A to point B and don't get killed". The way of accomplishing that differs. It would be either by blasting your way through, by finding and solving puzzles to unlock the next world/location or by combination of those.

No i mean... When you get a game... and It's just missons, and when you complete it you go elsewhere, Games like tomb raider Legend/AOD.
Whereas i prefer stuff like GTA/Driver ect.
I don't mind only mission games, but prefer freeroam.

BtoFu
08-09-06, 23:00
I would like a compromise. I would like bigger games that give more freedom but I don't want to be lost without any idea of what to do.

I'd pretty much agree with this. :)

Cochrane
09-09-06, 07:12
Free roaming in itself is no guarantee for a good game. There are many free roam games out there that are very nice, of course. However, the problem with such a free roam game is that it can be difficult to stay focused. Supporting a single storyline is much easier when the developer can directly control the environments through which the player goes, so that they match.

Take, for example, Oblivion: While you should feel a sense of urgency in the main quest, there is nothing preventing you from doing a whole different guild quest while Martin will sit there waiting for you. This breaks the story a little. In games like Dreamfall, it would be completely unacceptable.

With free roaming, there is also always the problem that while you can do anything, you have nothing to do in particular. If you happen on that one series of traps that would take you ages in Tomb Raider, you can simply choose a different mission instead.

Free roaming is something really cool. But it is only cool if it is done really well, and that takes an awful lot of work on the developer's side.

interstellardave
09-09-06, 07:33
Free roaming in a Tomb Raider sense to me would go something link this:

Lara learns that a very valuable artifact is hidden on a remote island. She knows little more than it is somewhere on this island. The player would go to the island (or start there) and begin searching. The developer would give the player a reasonably large island to search, including a certain amount of ocean area around it. There would, by necessity, be an invisible barrier to the game world encircling the island but within that barrier the player could explore the environment in its entirety--no invisible walls, the only barriers the player would encounter would be natural ones like a sheer cliff perhaps (although even that could be conquered with the right gear and player skills).

The island would have a number of locations of interest to Lara, some obvious and some very well hidden. Exploration of the various sites (each of which would be roughly like a "classic" TR level) would provide players with clues as to the location of the main artifact Lara is looking for. The player him/herself would have to put these clues together, however, the game would not do it for you just because you happened to be in the right place at the right time! Locating and exploring all of the main sites would be necessary to reveal all the clues--and the clues themselves could be designed in such a way so that the player couldn't discover the answer without them all.

Various items could be used to help in the quest, such as a digital camera for Lara to use (to help the player eventually piece everything together). All manner of other equipment could be used to explore every nook and cranny of the island should the player want, or need, to.

Once the "uber-puzzle" is put together by the player he/she will then discover the ultra-hidden location of the main artifact. This would be the game-ending sequence as the player navigates this hidden tomb (or temple, whatever) and braves it's perils to attain the artifact that brought Lara to the island.

NOTE: This basic idea has been in my head for years now, but some ideas have been taken from what I remember of other conversations on this board (ie, the camera idea). I in no way take full credit for all of this, as I and others know there have been many wonderful ideas and intelligent discussions that have taken place on the forum about ideas similar to this. Many people have "fleshed it out" in great detail too, as everyone has their own personal views on where TR should go...

Mona Sax
09-09-06, 08:50
To me, it really depends on the game. An exploration kind of game like GTA and TR can only profit from free-roaming environments, but more story-driven games often need some sort of thread to keep the intended pace and move the story along. The difficult thing in those games is to make the player do what you want him to do without him feeling constricted of pressed.

So I'd say it's definitely the way forward for certain genres, but for others it's rather hindering. Programming all games to be free-roaming would only lead to a decrease in diversity and to the loss of many good games.

BTW, to me it has nothing to do with length, both free-roaming and linear games can be long and entertaining. I despise "short, sharp thrill rides" just as much as you do. After all, I'm not willing to pay $50 for a rollercoaster ride either.

BlackGrey
09-09-06, 14:13
To me, it really depends on the game. An exploration kind of game like GTA and TR can only profit from free-roaming environments, but more story-driven games often need some sort of thread to keep the intended pace and move the story along. The difficult thing in those games is to make the player do what you want him to do without him feeling constricted of pressed.

So I'd say it's definitely the way forward for certain genres, but for others it's rather hindering. Programming all games to be free-roaming would only lead to a decrease in diversity and to the loss of many good games.

BTW, to me it has nothing to do with length, both free-roaming and linear games can be long and entertaining. I despise "short, sharp thrill rides" just as much as you do. After all, I'm not willing to pay $50 for a rollercoaster ride either.

Of course, I want games to be unique and not all free-roaming but to offer a lot more freedom with what they can do now that they have the technology to do so. I'm just saying isn't time that we gamers got our money's worth?

jarhead
09-09-06, 14:29
I want to get my moneys worth but i would hate to buy a free roaming game with a massive envirnment, only to spend 3/4's of my time trying to look for a place to do anything. I would prefer a massive envirnment, for instance in a TR game, where theres temple's to explore and each section is like a small game on its own. The same like GTA but theres a lot of land between the major places and a lot of traveling involved. Although this gives the game large play back, i'd want to complete the game first.
With a massive envirnment a game could take some time to complete and therefore i wont be that up to replaying it, as i would have explored it trying to complete the main storyline. i think a large ish envirnment with lots of smaller storylines instead of one massive one would be ideal for the nwer games, or have one large storyline which is continued throughout the entire map. trouble with that is, there would be no place to explore if you want a breack form the storyline.

Yuna´s Wish
09-09-06, 15:55
Free roaming in a Tomb Raider sense to me would go something link this:

Lara learns that a very valuable artifact is hidden on a remote island. She knows little more than it is somewhere on this island. The player would go to the island (or start there) and begin searching. The developer would give the player a reasonably large island to search, including a certain amount of ocean area around it. There would, by necessity, be an invisible barrier to the game world encircling the island but within that barrier the player could explore the environment in its entirety--no invisible walls, the only barriers the player would encounter would be natural ones like a sheer cliff perhaps (although even that could be conquered with the right gear and player skills).

The island would have a number of locations of interest to Lara, some obvious and some very well hidden. Exploration of the various sites (each of which would be roughly like a "classic" TR level) would provide players with clues as to the location of the main artifact Lara is looking for. The player him/herself would have to put these clues together, however, the game would not do it for you just because you happened to be in the right place at the right time! Locating and exploring all of the main sites would be necessary to reveal all the clues--and the clues themselves could be designed in such a way so that the player couldn't discover the answer without them all.

Various items could be used to help in the quest, such as a digital camera for Lara to use (to help the player eventually piece everything together). All manner of other equipment could be used to explore every nook and cranny of the island should the player want, or need, to.

Once the "uber-puzzle" is put together by the player he/she will then discover the ultra-hidden location of the main artifact. This would be the game-ending sequence as the player navigates this hidden tomb (or temple, whatever) and braves it's perils to attain the artifact that brought Lara to the island.

NOTE: This basic idea has been in my head for years now, but some ideas have been taken from what I remember of other conversations on this board (ie, the camera idea). I in no way take full credit for all of this, as I and others know there have been many wonderful ideas and intelligent discussions that have taken place on the forum about ideas similar to this. Many people have "fleshed it out" in great detail too, as everyone has their own personal views on where TR should go...
That would be quite interesting! :tmb: I like it, but what about the enemies? Dinosaurs, tigers, crocodiles...and mytical creatures inside the final temple. Personally, I would like some bosses inside every place where you find the clues. However, I understand that many dislike the idea of having bosses...

interstellardave
09-09-06, 17:31
That would be quite interesting! :tmb: I like it, but what about the enemies? Dinosaurs, tigers, crocodiles...and mytical creatures inside the final temple. Personally, I would like some bosses inside every place where you find the clues. However, I understand that many dislike the idea of having bosses...

Yeah, I didn't mention enemies but they'd be around, of course. The area would be populated with all the usual suspects and the temples and such could have supernatural enemies too. That would all be part of the challenge.

Janny
09-09-06, 19:55
More freedom in games? Yaw, imagine how long it would take just to load :eek: I think in games like Silent Hill or Prince of Persia there is enough space to roam around without having the crave for more.

IMO, it's good the way it is.

Mona Sax
09-09-06, 20:36
Of course, I want games to be unique and not all free-roaming but to offer a lot more freedom with what they can do now that they have the technology to do so. I'm just saying isn't time that we gamers got our money's worth?
You can get your money's worth with all kinds of games, not only free-roaming. More freedom is not always good in a game, sometimes you just have to go one way to move the story along. IMO free-roaming is good in games where the story doesn't really matter, like GTA. You can compare it to a book: If it's full of short stories or episodes, you can read whichever chapter you feel like, in any sequence you wish. The same thing wouldn't make much sense when reading a John Grisham thriller.

My point is that linear games are just as good when they're gripping and unobtrusive. It really depends whether you want your focus on free gameplay or the story.

interstellardave
09-09-06, 21:15
You can get your money's worth with all kinds of games, not only free-roaming. More freedom is not always good in a game, sometimes you just have to go one way to move the story along. IMO free-roaming is good in games where the story doesn't really matter, like GTA. You can compare it to a book: If it's full of short stories or episodes, you can read whichever chapter you feel like, in any sequence you wish. The same thing wouldn't make much sense when reading a John Grisham thriller.

My point is that linear games are just as good when they're gripping and unobtrusive. It really depends whether you want your focus on free gameplay or the story.

That's why free-roaming Tomb Raider rings a bell with the lovers of the early games... The "stories" in the first TR's were paper thin. It was just about finding an artifact of power and importance. The gameplay was what was great--I personally never cared about the "why". There were no dead mentors, no missing moms...

Mona Sax
09-09-06, 21:18
That's why free-roaming Tomb Raider rings a bell with the lovers of the early games... The "stories" in the first TR's were paper thin. It was just about finding an artifact of power and importance. The gameplay was what was great--I personally never cared about the "why". There were no dead mentors, no missing moms...
I agree with you there, I think that TR jumped the shark when they involved personal motives too. TR would be a great free-roaming game. I just don't agree that freedom is the "way forward for gaming" in general as the thread title suggests.

Atlantean-Squid
10-09-06, 00:15
That's why free-roaming Tomb Raider rings a bell with the lovers of the early games... The "stories" in the first TR's were paper thin. It was just about finding an artifact of power and importance. The gameplay was what was great--I personally never cared about the "why". There were no dead mentors, no missing moms...

I disagree. Despite not really paying attention to the stories (which were hardly "paper thin") of TR1 and 2 those years ago, I knew that there was a reason for Lara to be where she was. This is part of what made the games' charm work for me. I do agree that the storylines' inobtrusiveness to the gameplay enriched the experience, though.

MMAN
10-09-06, 00:57
While freedom can result in excellent games I don't think it can be simply defined as "the way forward". Promoting a certain way of doing things above all else stifles innovation as much as anything else.