View Full Version : How to implement varying jump lengths without resorting back to the gridsystem...
This discussion was started here (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=74116&page=13), and even thought it was interesting, it was off topic.
Basically - how can we get Lara's jump repetoire back to level where CD can implement a decent level of exploration that is dictated by the player and not Lara without havig to resort back to the gridsystem of old?
My first suggestion is this:
Maybe a learning curve could be introduced - shorter, easier jumps / jumps with little hazards in the earlier levels so we can get used to her jump trajectory and length (possibly depending on her speed - a standing jump is shorter than a jump made from a walk, which is shorter form a jump made at a run, which is shorter than the 'sprint -jump', where she literally flings herself as far as she can) before the jumps get progressively harder as the game progresses - the learning curve being that by the time the jumps get really tricky, we as players can judge whether we think she needs a stand-jump, a walk-jump, a run-jump or a sprint-jump to clear the gap / reach the ledge etc. Yes, it may involve a little trial and error until you get used to it - but ultimately would open up a lot of ground (especially if it was used in *conjunction* with the autograb, as opposed a *solely* with the autograb).
Any other ideas? How about exploration that isn't limited by the autograb?
interstellardave
14-09-06, 19:08
Well, as I was saying in the other topic, you could also "spice up" autograb itself by making the time span for a "last chance grab" much-shorter, and randomizing the button press needed for Lara to retain her shaky grip, so as to actually be able to fall if you just barely make it there... you could retain some of the nervousness of jumping with those slight modifications.
Indeed - it could even reflect whether she has grabbed with her left or right hand, eliminating the need for button prompt to flash up (have them in the training level, but in the actual game, the player would have to make a split decision - did she lead with her left or right hand? which has grabbed the ledge? Do I need to press (for example) X or triangle (for which ever one denotes each hand) to save myself?). The time you have to ascertain which hand could be governed by the difficuly level - on easy: plenty of time (and maybe a button flash up), on medium, less time (a few seconds - 5 or so), on hard - literally a couple of seconds (make a split decision!). It would certainly pay to be a bit more careful with your jumps on difficulty level if the last chance grab was made a split second, randomised left or right thing...
thepetemaster
14-09-06, 19:26
Dave - that would have to be implemented via varied animations, simply putting a 'button symbol' above Lara's head isn't going to do it. That was something that ruined the atmaosphere. Seeing a Triangle (PS2) pop up over Lara's head was rather irksome. Four different animations could be okay, say left hand missed = 'x' or right hand = 'Square' etc. Anything to stop all the hints coming up on screen. Lara could even say something I guess, like the old 'Ah-ha's when you found a secret.
As for grabbing controls, it depends how intricate CD want to get, and how they can then utilise those variations. A one jump fits all though, I hardly find it compelling.
Maybe a learning curve could be introduced - shorter, easier jumps / jumps with little hazards in the earlier levels so we can get used to her jump trajectory and length (possibly depending on her speed - a standing jump is shorter than a jump made from a walk, which is shorter form a jump made at a run, which is shorter than the 'sprint -jump', where she literally flings herself as far as she can) before the jumps get progressively harder as the game progresses - the learning curve being that by the time the jumps get really tricky, we as players can judge whether we think she needs a stand-jump, a walk-jump, a run-jump or a sprint-jump to clear the gap / reach the ledge etc.
On top of this, they could even use the analogue buttons. Soft, Medium and Hard, this would allow for some subtlely in the jumps. Again, whether that would prove too much control for players is not yet known. The longest jump possible would be a 'Hard press' with a sprint. The longest jump possible. Perhaps a sprinting 'soft press' would travel much higher, but not quite as far.
With the onset of such realistic graphics these days, surely the player should be able to judge the gap, visually as they approach it. This was posssible in the old 'pixelly' games, but then they had a nice geometry to them. Now the visual clues have been removed or deemed unimportant with the 'one-jump-fits-all' mentality.
Between the last grab landing animations and the varied length and height in the new jumps, the player should be able to get to grips with all facets of them in the mansion before they attempt the game. Ala' TR1.
*Nominates himself 'thread marshall' to dissuade any evil Hijackers out there*
Edit: :vlol:Dammit Elysia is it you doing the phone tapping!?
That's twice you posted the same time as me today ;)
Good idea Elysia but the only thing bad about that is you could just do a hard sprint jump every time so you always make it. But best solution so far and I don't see why it couldn't be done! :tmb:
thepetemaster
14-09-06, 20:08
Good idea Elysia but the only thing bad about that is you could just do a hard sprint jump every time so you always make it. But best solution so far and I don't see why it couldn't be done! :tmb:
Perhaps not Nick, what if there were spikes/flames above your head, or you were in a cramped tunnel, and so the height/distance adavantage would be lost?
@Elysia, you go like a motorcycle. :)
The jumps simply can be implemented in the air (visual time exists to do it). While it is in the air, if you see that she is not going to arrive at his objective you return to press “jump” being caused that it modifies her silhouette more stretching, one third length returning to press “jump” and causing the possible fall if she does not subject or or forcing to subject of different form.
The subject is that all the projections could be made attainable practically, this would cause that there were multitude of ways possible to reach an objective. Only the ability of the player would make him choose a way or another one based on the desire to explore or the desire to go fast that it had.
Let me add it in here seeing how we got kicked out of the other thread. :tea:
Jumps: 3 basic settings so there is a standard.
1. Standing jump: Jumps a set distance.
2. 3 step running jump: (jump on the 3rd step) Double the distance of a standing jump.
3. 6 step running jump: (jump on the 6th step) Double the 3 step jump distance.
Drop: 4 basic settings so there is a standard.
1. Drop for a set distance with no damage.
2. Drop past safe drop to another set distance with minimal damage. (slight)
3. Drop from slight damage to another set distance, lose half a life.
4. Drop anything past the half life loss and it ends in death. **
Grabs: Revert back to using action to grab, keep holding action for as long as we want to hold onto ledge. To fall from ledge simply let go of action. To pull up use standard forward /up command. Still keep handstand for showing off. Shift to new key for speed ups during ledge hanging/shimmy.
**(Note: Always show landing so we can see she died. Always allow us to attemp a jump. If we miss-calculated, she misses and dies. Again, always show death.)
Counting steps might be dicey. The pressure on an analog stick might be controller dependent. Maybe some kind of visual guage. You hold action before jumpimg and the guage increases, you release and the release point determines how far you jump. You run. pressing action again determines the point form which you jump. Press action a third time to grab or have autograb toggled on. For a running jump action could be one button and for a standing jump action could be a different button.
You would have to learn to "gauge" your jumps correctly. The tricky ones would be those that you could over jump. (It is sort of like those guages they use in golf games )
Moon-Safari
14-09-06, 22:22
i do miss the running jump and standing jump. it made controlling lara feel more flexible.
Ward Dragon
15-09-06, 00:35
Unless I'm mistaken, AOD already did this. As far as I know, AOD was not grid based and it still had varied jumping distances and precise jumping.
I like the idea of a standing jump, a walking jump and a running jump. Perhaps the short hop and the sprint jump (both from AOD) could be used as well, although with better implementation (I liked the AOD controls on PC except for one thing--half the time the walk function wouldn't trigger properly so she'd jump instead of hop, or turn instead of sidestep. Also it was a little hard to get her to stop at a specific spot while swimming. Other than that, though, I didn't have any problems with AOD's controls).
So anyhow, my suggestion for Legend 2 is to slow Lara's movement down a bit (perhaps not as slowly as the classic games, but definitely not as fast as Legend). Then add in some of the old capabilities, including the incremental jumping distances. The best way to do this is probably what Elysia said in the first post, although I'd like to include the hop as well :)
As for exploration being limited by autograb, well, I don't think they'll get rid of the autograb anytime soon. So, I'd like for them to make almost every surface grabbable. That way, we can branch out and explore areas, perhaps leading to secrets and perhaps leading nowhere, without simply sliding back down onto the preset path. The levels should not have invisible walls or obviously explorable areas that cannot be explored merely because Lara will not reach up and grab the rock when we tell her to.
Oh, arse! Super quick back up + early morning = lost half my post (and now it's after work, I can't remember what I wrote!)…
Ward Dragon: In a way, yes (because going back to varied jumps is very TR and AoD tried it without the grid first) and in a way, no. The AoD jumps were far too imprecise as well - the controls would need some serious tightening up form their AoD years (I have to say that although AoD's storyline has me interested, the sluggish controls and the lag time between you pressing the button and Lara responding is dreadfully frustrating, and it means AoD is the least played of all Core's TR's I have - I simply get to 'The Wrath of the Beast' and end up throwing things and abandoning the game for months on end!). In principle, the variegated length is a good idea - it was just implemented in a dreadful way. However, Legend's philosophy of 'one jump fits all' (or not at all if you're not supposed to go there) has gone far to much the other way. CD need to get some variety back into the jumps to make the game more player-led (where the player decides how they want to traverse stuff and is allowed to experiment and work stuff out for themselves), but at the same time make sure that the system is intuitive.
This is where, oddly enough, the autograb and the 'last chance grab' could help. The inclusion of the autograb means that although distances will be harder to judge (because you aren't counting squares and so can't work things out that way), sticking a landing would be easier. One of the most frustrating things about the older TR's was that, after executing a difficult jump where you had to make sure Lara took a step after the jump to not slide backwards, she would actually keep going and you'd end up falling off the other side. CD could almost implement a system where Lara naturally lands after a certain type of jump (long / sprint jump) where she 'sticks the landing' - a 2 second animation of her catching her balance, for example. This may also limit the long / sprint jumps use as a safe way to cover all jumps - if you're being chased / on a timed run / on unsafe terrain, the last thing you want is to lose precious seconds with Lara having to catch her balance all the time.
@Elysia, you go like a motorcycle. :)
The jumps simply can be implemented in the air (visual time exists to do it). While it is in the air, if you see that she is not going to arrive at his objective you return to press “jump” being caused that it modifies her silhouette more stretching, one third length returning to press “jump” and causing the possible fall if she does not subject or or forcing to subject of different form.
The subject is that all the projections could be made attainable practically, this would cause that there were multitude of ways possible to reach an objective. Only the ability of the player would make him choose a way or another one based on the desire to explore or the desire to go fast that it had.
:tmb: This is similar to what the Jak games use - Jak has a standard 'jump', but if you press jump again, he spins, making the jump a bit longer. Now, obviously, Lara spinning isn't appropriate, but having a second button to push to change the jump slightly is a nice idea. I can almost see the animation - like s little body 'jerk' to push herself foorward as much as possible, maybe? Another one could be having 2 jump buttons - one for a short jump and one for a longer jump... but then we have the problem of the controls getting uber-complicated again...
I do like the analogue stick idea, but in order to implement that, they'd have to sort out the resistance on the controllers first (I'm referring to PS2, since that is what I have). The analogue sticks are far to sensitive and slippery, making precision movement hard. A bit more resistance on them would mean you would naturally push to a certain point to run, but them really have push to sprint / jump far, other wise you'd be doing it all the time through no fault of your own...
The gauge is also a nice one! The only problem is that it is another gauge on the screen, and aftetr the grip gauge of AoD, would that even be allowed to be implemented? Same goes for counting steps - to us classic fans, it seems natural - but it is also endemic to the gridsystem... I can see the complaints now: 'they gone back to the grid', 'we have to *count*!!', 'why won't she jump far enough?' etc etc...
Hmmm, without resorting back to the grid system....
What do people mean when they say that? What is that is so evil about it?
*Running jumps that require 2 steps before the actual jump? [Hence, if Lara is too close to a ledge she falls off before doing the actual jump]
*Moving in relation to body position? [Lara steps forward when you press up rather than up=towards top of screen]
*Moving more slowly than in Legend?
I get confused about what's so bad about the grid system. And what it actually means by grid system. Yes I know the world is built around blocks but so what, how does that qualitatively differ from a non-grid world location?
As I see it the main difference between Legend and classic TR controls is the use of analogue sticks and a 2D style of movement (press up=towards top of screen). AoD's controls are actually very similar in lots of ways to Legend (albeit Legend's are more polished - as they should be three years further on)...
I'd love someone to explain clearly what's so evil about the grid system and how it qualitatively affects gameplay compared to a non-grid world system.
I love the grid system, but it is the main thing that was thrown out continuously as being 'bad' and a real 'relic of the past'. It's a fact of life that we simply have to face - it ain't coming back. The old way of building levels using a pre-programmed number of steps / one square from standing jumps, two for running and 3 for run-jump-grab will never, ever grace a TR game again - CD would simply be laughed out of the boardroom if they suggested going back to grid-based level design after it has been slated by so many people. CD / Eidos would never re-introduce it (unless it all of a sudden became fashionable again....), so there's no point even discussing that element of the game - the grid is, whether we like it or not, gone; dead and buried, same with the manual grab ( I think we need to face facts that the autograb is here to stay, too...)
Due to this, I was just interested to see if there was a way that a more varied jump repertoire could be established that allows for greater freedom of movement and exploration that doesn't depend on the grid; one that is relatively easy to work out (as with the grid) but is more intuitive and a lot less finiky than the AoD one.
I love the grid system, but it is the main thing that was thrown out continuously as being 'bad' and a real 'relic of the past'. It's a fact of life that we simply have to face - it ain't coming back. The old way of building levels using a pre-programmed number of steps / one square from standing jumps, two for running and 3 for run-jump-grab will never, ever grace a TR game again - CD would simply be laughed out of the boardroom if they suggested going back to grid-based level design after it has been slated by so many people. CD / Eidos would never re-introduce it (unless it all of a sudden became fashionable again....), so there's no point even discussing that element of the game - the grid is, whether we like it or not, gone; dead and buried, same with the manual grab ( I think we need to face facts that the autograb is here to stay, too...)
Due to this, I was just interested to see if there was a way that a more varied jump repertoire could be established that allows for greater freedom of movement and exploration that doesn't depend on the grid; one that is relatively easy to work out (as with the grid) but is more intuitive and a lot less finiky than the AoD one.Well I'm not saying it should be brought back, I'm just saying I don't understand what is meant by it and why it is so evil. I can't discuss this topic about how to implement varying jump lengths without resorting restorting back to the grid system... because I'm confused about what it means and how it qualitatively differs from a non-grid system.
Obviously everybody else understands it, but to me I don't get what the qualitative difference is between having a standing jump = 1 unit (or square), running jump = 2 units and run/jump/grab = 3 units... and what you're trying to achieve here. That's why I'm confused. :confused: Do you see what I'm saying?
Well I'm not saying it should be brought back, I'm just saying I don't understand what is meant by it and why it is so evil. I can't discuss this topic about how to implement varying jump lengths without resorting restorting back to the grid system... because I'm confused about what it means and how it qualitatively differs from a non-grid system.
Obviously everybody else understands it, but to me I don't get what the qualitative difference is between having a standing jump = 1 unit (or square), running jump = 2 units and run/jump/grab = 3 units... and what you're trying to achieve here. That's why I'm confused. :confused:
In the new gaming arena, there is no 'squares' to check against - the natural 'order' of a gridsystem is lost. In theory, movement becomes freer because you aren't tied down to the engine's gridded restrictions - in theory, you aren't tied down to only having 3 jumps. In theory.
Problem is, having nothing to judge distance against, judging distance and therefore things precisely becomes a lot harder, hence the reason the jumps became totally uniform in Legend. In the classics, you could figure out what kind of jump you needed to do near enough in advance - you just had to 'count' the distance. Now, there is nothing of the sort, so there is no fixed 'distance' any one certain move can achieve.
People see the gridsystem of old as 'evil' because it lends to a blockier, rigid level design (the fact that it also allows a greater level of precision and, ironically enough, more freedom of movement as long as you know the 'rules' than any other system I've come across is another matter entirely...). Same goes for this so -calles 'tank movement' the old Lara had (I find it perfectly logical, but it is allegedly 'ugly' and 'clunky'). This is why that way of designing levels won't come back - it is a sad fact of life that having pretty graphics (i.e. not 'blocky') is more important than having a solid gameplay experience. Many of the anti-TR lobby (and many of the 'Classic-TR-was-too-hard-for-me' lobby as well...) hold up the grid as the main reason they wouldn't play the game - it's another scapegoat, if you like. Rather than develop the grid system on to the next level (so it becomes more sophisticated and allows even greater levels of precision... which, I fear, the old TR fans would love but the 'Wheee! Look at the pretty lady go!' lobby would detest and therefore would never happen...), CD / Eidos have latched onto the 'seemless environment' (that looks pretty but basically allows for very little precision - hence the introduction of the autograb). Rather than keep lamenting the loss of the grid (because it's futile...), I thought it would be a nice idea to think of ways the older, more varied, more precise ways of moving Lara over the new way of building terrain could be implemented, rather than having to stick to this 'one jump fits all' mentality that Legend has.
Well I'm not saying it should be brought back, I'm just saying I don't understand what is meant by it and why it is so evil. I can't discuss this topic about how to implement varying jump lengths without resorting restorting back to the grid system... because I'm confused about what it means and how it qualitatively differs from a non-grid system.
Obviously everybody else understands it, but to me I don't get what the qualitative difference is between having a standing jump = 1 unit (or square), running jump = 2 units and run/jump/grab = 3 units... and what you're trying to achieve here. That's why I'm confused. :confused: Do you see what I'm saying?
I agree with what Elysia said above. The grid system is not "evil" but limiting. It is like saying Lara can jump 6,12 or 18 feet but none of the distances between. What we are trying to explore in this thread are possible ways to do this better. How can we make Lara jump anywhere from 0 to her maximum in a useable manner and make the jumps more of a challenge. People lament that the jumps in TRL are too easy and I think that is because CD opted to take the easy route to solve this problem as Elysia pointed out above. (I honestly found the jump system in the classic games to be too easy also.)
So basically it's the blockiness of the design? And...being restricted to three jump lengths?
Look I'm probably being really dumb here but isn't it a case of the real problem with the old grid system is the size of the grids. Because if you divide one old grid into 1,000,000 grids, you get such tiny squares that they become items you can make all shapes with.
And... I don't know how they map the interior worlds of games really, but don't all systems have some sort of grid within them? How else can you tell the computer where to place items and colours?
See...still mystified. :D I agree with you Elysia we won't be going back to the old ways, but I personally can't discuss moving on without looking back. I have to look back and see what's supposedly wrong before I can use my mind to think up something that might work better. It's just the way I think. :)
I agree with what Elysia said above. The grid system is not "evil" but limiting. It is like saying Lara can jump 6,12 or 18 feet but none of the distances between. What we are trying to explore in this thread are possible ways to do this better. How can we make Lara jump anywhere from 0 to her maximum in a useable manner and make the jumps more of a challenge. People lament that the jumps in TRL are too easy and I think that is because CD opted to take the easy route to solve this problem as Elysia pointed out above. (I honestly found the jump system in the classic games to be too easy also.)Ah, now this is making more sense to me. It's beginning to trickle through. Now I see why petemaster mentions analogue controls and different pressure strengths.
Yes this would be a nice feature...
Basically, I laugh when I hear the grid system is dead. Everything has a coordinant in space in the computer. If everything stays perpendicular to each other and evrything is made up of the same distances, then that's what people are reffering to as the "grid" system. Like early TR's, that looked like they were assembled with building blocks, so to speak. But shorten some lengths, throw in angles, round off edges and arc things and they think the grid is gone. Basically there is a very fine, much smaller grid at work, placing each coordinant in space and connecting them. Whether it's a straight line or a curve connecting them, it is still plotted in space. Imagine a 3D version of graph paper, you can still draw a curve across it, and slant in, dome it or cave in the surface. It still plots out on the graph. You can plot the coordinants of a ball on a grid and still make it a perfectly smooth, round ball. That just depends on the resolution you use.
Even the joystick still works on this basic principle, it's just you can see the angle pushed on it. You could do the same thing with the old 4 buttons, you just pushed on two at the same time. Depend on which one you leaned on harder you could still adjust the angle. I used to rotate my thumb over them to get the angle I wanted, not much different that rotating the joystick.
Take a look at a 3D model of anything. It's "skeleton" is still mapped out on a gridwork called a wireframe. Get used to it, it's how artists map something out so it always get drawn correctly no matter the angle it's drawn at.
Now how this works as far as movement has to be somewhat similar. You adjust angles of up, down, forward, back, side to side.
Lara must have a set distance per stride as she is running, counting steps is a perfectly logical way of knowing the outcome of how far she will jump depending on how many steps she takes. That's why it's annoying in legend that whether she's standing still or just starting to run or has been running flat out, she always jumps one set distance. There should be different distances based on the momentum she put into her bodies movements that determinbes the distance of the jump. Hence the 3 distances I suggested. But I guess the new TR player can't count...
That doesn't take into account the swinging jump off of poles. That is determined by how hard she is swinging, basically one swing around the pole or more, and at what angle you release her from the pole. If released at a low angle the jump should be low and long, if released high, she would go up high but not very far, facing down on the wrong side of the swing should plummet her down.
Basically, I laugh when I hear the grid system is dead. Everything has a coordinant in space in the computer. If everything stays perpendicular to each other and evrything is made up of the same distances, then that's what people are reffering to as the "grid" system. Like early TR's, that looked like they were assembled with building blocks, so to speak. But shorten some lengths, throw in angles, round off edges and arc things and they think the grid is gone. Basically there is a very fine, much smaller grid at work, placing each coordinant in space and connecting them. Whether it's a straight line or a curve connecting them, it is still plotted in space. Imagine a 3D version of graph paper, you can still draw a curve across it, and slant in, dome it or cave in the surface. It still plots out on the graph. You can plot the coordinants of a ball on a grid and still make it a perfectly smooth, round ball. That just depends on the resolution you use.
Even the joystick still works on this basic principle, it's just you can see the angle pushed on it. You could do the same thing with the old 4 buttons, you just pushed on two at the same time. Depend on which one you leaned on harder you could still adjust the angle. I used to rotate my thumb over them to get the angle I wanted, not much different that rotating the joystick.
Take a look at a 3D model of anything. It's "skeleton" is still mapped out on a gridwork called a wireframe. Get used to it, it's how artists map something out so it always get drawn correctly no matter the angle it's drawn at.
Now how this works as far as movement has to be somewhat similar. You adjust angles of up, down, forward, back, side to side.
Lara must have a set distance per stride as she is running, counting steps is a perfectly logical way of knowing the outcome of how far she will jump depending on how many steps she takes.I thought that was how it all worked. Co-ordinates and grids everywhere.
This is why I was saying what do we mean by the grid system and why is it evil? Not because I was trying to defend the old way, but because I know people mean something specific when they moan about the "grid system" and I wanted an explanation of what that was and why they considered it to be bad.
I'm a bit amused that my repeated attempts at asking for explanations are seen as attempts as defending the old ways.
:D
I think what people were objecting to was how large the grid was, it was the size of a block she moved. Using a much finer grid as you mentioned and no one even knows it's there. Then things can look sculpted and free formed. But they still have coordinants... ;)
The penny has finally dropped over here, lol. :D
Thank you Elysia, Samsdad and Vman. :)
Trigger_happy
15-09-06, 17:16
being a thicko, but loving the thrill of jumping a massive jump, i wouldnt mind if there were just two kinds of jump- a running jump, for longer jumps, and a standing jump, for if you were not moving. I would also love it if Autograb was removed, as it sorta spoils the big jumps.
Sneaky programs like bryce use triangulated shapes instead of blocky cubes so when built up it gives the shapes a more uneven, orangic feel. But still, coordinated in a space. Better for outdoor wilderness type environments instead of manmade structures.
thepetemaster
15-09-06, 19:05
Well this is what I wrote yesterday:
(just to keep it all in one place)
The old system was based on geometry and factored in the ANGLE of the ledge you were aiming at (a visual clue to wether it was grabbable), the distance you were from the ledge, and the height in relation to Lara. In Legend, there were clearly platforms or Ledges that should have been accessible, and yet weren't. Like you said Dave, you fling yourself at something, in the hope she'll grab. :(
This is the kind of thing that ruins the atmosphere for the player, and instead of being sure in themselves, the rules of exploration were always changing. They were inconsistent and made the player feel cheated. Everytime it happens, I could see the programmers waggling their finger at me - saying 'Ah-ah not that way Petey!' :(
There was a subtley to the old games, the angles of certain slopes, deemed how Lara would interact with them. This was then exploited by the designers to created tricky and demanding areas to navigate. Traversing the landscape efficiently, would require the player to actually stop and take in their surroundings for clues as how to proceed. You didn't just run blindly through. You would be dead!!! :p
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Newer controllers like the PS2, GC, have analogue buttons, that can differentiate between the strength of each button-press. This would add a nice subtley to the jumping with the current system. Whether something so intricate would be welcomed by the 'casual gamer', who knows?
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I will add to the analogue button idea with an edit or another post - have to go out again. This is a really great discussion so far. :tmb:
There is a difference between using points in a cooordinate system and pre-set block sizes. It is the difference between vector graphics and bitmap graphics. When people object to the grid system they are referring to the use of preset blocks for design and movement control. That is why you end up with a limited number of jump types and tree branches that look like flat country roads.
In a coordinate system you work by drawing lines from point to point. The character wire diagrams that vman mentioned are built that way. Jumping in a well designed game should be from point to point and not restricted on the separation of the two points.
I am still a little hesitant about counting steps. I can see myself playing and going one, two, three.... one two three... one two three ****! It is about the way my wife says I dance.
Ward Dragon
15-09-06, 19:16
@ thepetemaster's post: That sounds good. I'd still get the PC version, though, so hopefully they'd be able to implement that idea successfully using the mouse :)
Ward Dragon: In a way, yes (because going back to varied jumps is very TR and AoD tried it without the grid first) and in a way, no. The AoD jumps were far too imprecise as well - the controls would need some serious tightening up form their AoD years (I have to say that although AoD's storyline has me interested, the sluggish controls and the lag time between you pressing the button and Lara responding is dreadfully frustrating, and it means AoD is the least played of all Core's TR's I have - I simply get to 'The Wrath of the Beast' and end up throwing things and abandoning the game for months on end!).
Well, from what I hear of AOD's bugs, I probably just got incredibly lucky and it likes my computer. I thought the jumps were fairly precise and I didn't experience any lagging at all. (She did always walk a few steps before breaking out into a run, but I think that was intentional). Anyhow, I wouldn't mind at all if the controls were tightened up, and of course I would not want the controls to act the way that you described. I just wanted to clear up that the controls were actually decent on my PC before people start to think that I like sluggish, laggy controls :p
In principle, the variegated length is a good idea - it was just implemented in a dreadful way. However, Legend's philosophy of 'one jump fits all' (or not at all if you're not supposed to go there) has gone far to much the other way. CD need to get some variety back into the jumps to make the game more player-led (where the player decides how they want to traverse stuff and is allowed to experiment and work stuff out for themselves), but at the same time make sure that the system is intuitive.
This is where, oddly enough, the autograb and the 'last chance grab' could help. The inclusion of the autograb means that although distances will be harder to judge (because you aren't counting squares and so can't work things out that way), sticking a landing would be easier. One of the most frustrating things about the older TR's was that, after executing a difficult jump where you had to make sure Lara took a step after the jump to not slide backwards, she would actually keep going and you'd end up falling off the other side. CD could almost implement a system where Lara naturally lands after a certain type of jump (long / sprint jump) where she 'sticks the landing' - a 2 second animation of her catching her balance, for example. This may also limit the long / sprint jumps use as a safe way to cover all jumps - if you're being chased / on a timed run / on unsafe terrain, the last thing you want is to lose precious seconds with Lara having to catch her balance all the time.
I like that idea :) I don't want a gauge, so this sounds like a good alternative.
In a coordinate system you work by drawing lines from point to point. The character wire diagrams that vman mentioned are built that way. Jumping in a well designed game should be from point to point and not restricted on the separation of the two points.
What throws me off about the "gridless" system in Legend is that it feels like there is no resistance to Lara's movement. She's just sort of floating around, whether she's on the ground or jumping through the air. I don't really know how to explain it, but even though the "grid" system of the previous games looked more fake due to everything being blocky, it felt more real because it just seemed like there was gravity in the game. I felt like Lara was actually moving on dirt, or jumping, or falling. In Legend, it feels the same no matter what she's doing. I don't know if that feeling of gravity is due to the grid system or not, but I hope that future TR games will be able to replicate that sense that Lara is really interacting with the environment.
What throws me off about the "gridless" system in Legend is that it feels like there is no resistance to Lara's movement. She's just sort of floating around, whether she's on the ground or jumping through the air. I don't really know how to explain it, but even though the "grid" system of the previous games looked more fake due to everything being blocky, it felt more real because it just seemed like there was gravity in the game. I felt like Lara was actually moving on dirt, or jumping, or falling. In Legend, it feels the same no matter what she's doing. I don't know if that feeling of gravity is due to the grid system or not, but I hope that future TR games will be able to replicate that sense that Lara is really interacting with the environment.
It is interesting that you feel that way. I had sort of a reverse experience. Once I finished TRL I decided to go back and play TR1. I wanted to get ready for the upcoming TRAE game and refresh my memory. And I felt really ackward and heavy in moving Lara about. I kept slamming into walls and over running the edges of ledges. When I tried to pick up objects off the floor of water levels I kept swimming back and forth across them and overshooting the pick up. The jumping was the only really easy part that I found since there were only three basic jumps. I have to confess that I got really spastic anytime the combat got hot and heavy until I settled into a basic jump back and forth strategy. I really had fun in the game but it definately felt different.
Ah, the good old grid system. It is a real work of genius, making everything easier both in terms of implementation and user interface. Too bad that it is gone now.
To clarify one thing: There is a difference between having a coordinate system and Tomb Raider's grid system, and there are many shapes that TR's grid system cannot display accurately even with smaller grid sizes. TR's system works by having axis-aligned cells (squares), similar to 2D RPGs, for horizontal collision detection and generic in-area detection, and adds a third dimension with floors and ceilings at different heights and angles. Saying that every game has a grid system because it's all just coordinates is not exactly correct.
What I would say in respect to the topic of this thread: The problem is, in my opinion, not how long the jumps should be or how recovery from missed jumps should be handled. What is important is that a player can easily judge whether he can jump over any gap, and how he can jump there. I have not yet seen a system that is more suitable for this than the good old grid system. To have something that works as well and works on any gap (not just those marked as "can jump over here" is, in my opinion, not possible without adding to the environment. All such solutions that I can imagine are ugly and inflexible, but on the other hand, I'm not getting paid to invent them.
A solution that offers less freedom than the grid is to have recognizeable pieces of architecture (like a certain shape of ledge) that provide a visual cue to the player where you can jump. Legend is using this approach, where ledges that you can jump to or hold on are much thicker than any other ledges. Strategic placement of cracks and bars (as Legend had) is another part of this way to solve the problem. Of course, this is just a bad hack, with the obvious problem that free, unlimited exploration goes down the sewer.
AoD showed how the problem was worst solved: Not at all. Finding out what you can jump and what not can usually only determined by guessing, except for the (many) cases where there is only one way to continue. The wide range of jumps you have does not make this easier.
Moon-Safari
15-09-06, 22:58
i say just bring back the running jump and the standing jump. too many different jumps will be too confusing, even for the old school gamers. there should be wide gaps and short gaps. simple as that. its enough variety. and although i never made it far enough in AOD to try the sprinting jump it does seem like a fairy fun idea.
also, i dont see the need for the different height jumps in legend based on how long you held the button. if you need to jump up to something even just a little bit, a high jump would work also. it was a task having to hold down the button to perform a high jump, which by the way was NOT high enough!
thepetemaster
16-09-06, 00:06
Well, if we are going to sort this mess out we are going to need a quick refresher in Raider Jumps 101. I am only going to concentrate on Lara's standing and running jumps. (Side flips and backflips are a variation on the standing jump in which there is no grab zone available.) Lets go back to our roots shall we... (cue hideous paint pics :tmb:)
http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1893/key1gi2.jpg
Key:
Unavailable : This an area that is deemed unreachable from Lara's current position by the grid mechanic.
Lara: This is Lara's start position or take off tile.
Safe Landing (+1 Height) : This is an area in which Lara can safely land and can be anywhere from knee-height to as tall as Lara. (1 full tile higher)
Normal landing: This is a tile that is reachable and on the same plain as Lara.
Grab Zone: This is an area directly out of Lara's touchdown range, and yet can be grabbed. (Due to restrictions on my drawing, we will take it as height = 0)
1:The Standing Jump
http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/6169/standjump1id1.jpg
2: The Running jump
http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1681/running1li7.jpg
I'm sure most fans are familiar enough with the old jumps and how they worked. As the diagrams show, the amount of different areas open to Lara after she chooses which jump to use, are quite numerous.
Okay, so why the need to go backwards?
"Ugh it's the ancient grid system!!":mad:
Well, already we have discussed (disgust?) that Legend seemed to have a one jump fit's all mentality, and so the options available to where the player could go were reduced. When that was factored in with the dictations made by the Autograb system, those choices were narrowed further.
How can it all be made better?
This is where an understanding and an appreciation of the grid system comes in very handy. This doesn't mean that it has to be reverted back to in order to offer the player more scope for movement. Samsdad mentioned a gauge, I think Vman mentioned 'counting steps'. Now as Elysia pointed out, yet another gauge on the screen is probably the last thing we want to see ruining our immersion. :( The gauge is a nice idea, and can indeed be implemented off-screen. How's that possible you say? That is where the analogue jump button comes into play.
This idea was mentioned earlier, but perhaps some elaboration is necessary.
The grid is gone. We have all had to come to terms with this fact since AoD (well some of us have ( but then we will always have the LE ;)). Legend attempted to finish off the transition but lost something along the way. In utilising the analogue function of the jump button, differing outcomes can be quite achievable, and tha whole mechanic can be kept quite simple and intuitive.
How will Analogue jumping work?
The simplest way is to combine two factors:
Lara's momentum and the Force of her jump.
The current Lara has 3 speeds. Standing still, walking and running. (Hopefully the sprint will return aswell :tmb:)
The analogue jump button can also register soft, medium and hard 'button presses'.
Possible New jumping scheme :
(I will add illustrations in future edit if this isn't clear)
Soft = a quick, light tap.
Medium = a smooth press down.
Hard - A sharp firm tap.
(References to old grid system for distance/height comparison)
Standstill - soft/medium/hard.
Soft - small hop forward/backward and up.
Medium (45 degrees)- an average height and a further distance. (old grid system comparison = 1 tile)
Hard - longest distance with little height (1.5 old tiles), OR greatest height upwards no distance, but not both.
Walking soft/medium/hard.
Soft - same as standstill medium (1 tile )
Medium - (45 degrees) same distance as standstill Hard(1.5 tiles), (1 tile high)
Hard- Longer (2 tiles ) much shallower jump. (.5 tiles high)
Running
(Unlike old system - jumps on command - not after 3 steps)
Soft - Same distance medium walk(1.5 tiles), but little bit higher. (1.25 tiles high)
Medium - (45 degrees) same distance as walking hard. (2 tiles)
Hard - Shallow - long jump (3 tiles long) (.5 high)
SPRINT (?)
(or the crazy jump)
Soft - forward roll (hmm not sure on this one?)
Medium - (45 degrees) Longest jump possible (3.5 tiles), with height.(1 tile) (Like the Aod jump perhaps)
Hard - Long and shallow reaching jump (Lara flings forward) (4 tiles long) (.5 high)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The above is just an indication of the subtley that could be reintroduced, while operating on two simple principles. The designers can then offer up some more variety, and some more intricate areas to navigate. The player could acclimatise themselves to all the jumps in the mansion before feeling confident enough to head out raiding. The jumping should be intuitive though, perhaps even if it is scaled back to a hard press and a soft press.
Combined with the two different last grab animations though (left hand, right hand), it should put a bit more tension back into the actual jumping. perhaps a sense that the player is the one who is actually in control, and maybe even just a little bit more rewarding, perhaps even fun again.
The Big P.S.
PC owners, I don't know what to say, if TR has to evolve then surely the keyboard will have to aswell, it can't be the only thing holding back control schemes on the new consoles. Is there a keyboard with analogue style keys on the market? That could make all the difference for you guys aswell. Have faith. ;)
I have but one problem with this and it is the controller itself. There is no limit on it to know what a soft press is vs. a medium press or a hard press other than the pressure. I'd like to see a 3 stage button then. It could be pushed in so far and hit a lip or stop that you can feel, but pushed harder could hit a second stop or ledge, and yet be pushed even harder to reach the bottom of it's movement. A way to register just how far is just right for soft, medium or hard press. Same could be said for the joysticks. I found walking in legend quite difficult. There was no way of telling just how far you could push the toggle before the walk turned into a run. If they could impliment a ring so to speak that could catch and be moved in any direction that could be the limit for walking. But like the button press, if you pushed harder on the toggle, then you could go to the outer ring that would be your running. Or even 3 stage it like the button for walk, run, sprint. Of course they could just use a walk button in conjunction with the directional joystick like in the past and then we'd know we were locked into walk mode.
I've tried in racing games to modulate the pressure on the button for the gas, but it's mostly an all on or off switch. I know sony said they are pressure sensitive, but it's very hard to tell how hard is enough or too much pressure. The buttons don't have enough of a range of motion to get a good feel for it. And the joysticks are too loose and easy to move, they need stiffer resistance.
Now I don't see sony redesigning the controllers for PS2, not with PS3 right around the corner, but I wonder if they could build in more control with the next gen controller. Or are they even aware they could improve them?
thepetemaster
16-09-06, 05:48
I hear what you are saying about the acceleration in driving games. Three pressures of jump may be nice Vman, two would keep things SIMPLE for those that can't handle it. A good use of this was already in 'Resident Evil 4'. When you arrived at a door a SOFT push on action - your character opened a door smoothly, a HARD push - meant the kicked it wide open. It was nice touch (sorry for the pun).
We need an official drummer.. ba, dam, dum, tsssssh :ton:
thepetemaster
16-09-06, 11:32
"er, we're here 'bout the drumming job!"
http://smileys.inzenet.org/repository/Musique/0017.gif http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/music024.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org) http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/music032.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/)http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/music016.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org) http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/music027.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org) http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/musik/Drummer.gif (http://www.world-of-smilies.com/) http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/musik/musik_wos10.gif (http://www.world-of-smilies.com/) http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/musik/wosmusik8.gif (http://www.world-of-smilies.com/) http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/musik/wosmusik1.gif (http://www.world-of-smilies.com/)
Rock on Dude!!
http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/musik/ico_metal.gif (http://www.World-of-Smilies.com)
Ah, the good old grid system. It is a real work of genius, making everything easier both in terms of implementation and user interface. Too bad that it is gone now.
To clarify one thing: There is a difference between having a coordinate system and Tomb Raider's grid system, and there are many shapes that TR's grid system cannot display accurately even with smaller grid sizes. TR's system works by having axis-aligned cells (squares), similar to 2D RPGs, for horizontal collision detection and generic in-area detection, and adds a third dimension with floors and ceilings at different heights and angles. Saying that every game has a grid system because it's all just coordinates is not exactly correct.
What I would say in respect to the topic of this thread: The problem is, in my opinion, not how long the jumps should be or how recovery from missed jumps should be handled. What is important is that a player can easily judge whether he can jump over any gap, and how he can jump there. I have not yet seen a system that is more suitable for this than the good old grid system. To have something that works as well and works on any gap (not just those marked as "can jump over here" is, in my opinion, not possible without adding to the environment. All such solutions that I can imagine are ugly and inflexible, but on the other hand, I'm not getting paid to invent them.
A solution that offers less freedom than the grid is to have recognizeable pieces of architecture (like a certain shape of ledge) that provide a visual cue to the player where you can jump. Legend is using this approach, where ledges that you can jump to or hold on are much thicker than any other ledges. Strategic placement of cracks and bars (as Legend had) is another part of this way to solve the problem. Of course, this is just a bad hack, with the obvious problem that free, unlimited exploration goes down the sewer.
AoD showed how the problem was worst solved: Not at all. Finding out what you can jump and what not can usually only determined by guessing, except for the (many) cases where there is only one way to continue. The wide range of jumps you have does not make this easier.Yes some good points Cochrane. Even the limited amount of thinking I've done about this suggests to me that the old TR system is actually a well thought out and quite elegant SOLUTION to control/movement problems.
----
I like the idea of the realism of Lara being able to jump any distance between 0 and her maximum range (as Samsdad mentioned).
But I'm not sure it's easy to implement in either a useful way or a way that's fun (or better) for the gameplayer.
What I mean by this is - unless throughout the game, the jump distances vary like crazy AND Lara is penalised for not being able to make these jumps exactly... then the system is overly complex, and mostly redundant. Most people will just jump max distance each time unless there is a penalty for not doing it....
And if the jump distances do vary like crazy AND Lara is penalised for not being able to do them exactly... then the system HAS to be something completely intuitive to use. Something that you can see at a glance roughly the distance required for the jump and then actually impliment that into Lara's movements fairly rapidly. OK, you may die a few times, but no more, or it becomes very frustrating.
It also has to be something that works so well that once you've learned the jump distance between 2 objects you can repeat it again and again (ie, it is learned). Other wise what you have is a continuous trial and error scenerio for any jumping in the game. Which for me would be torture.
A gauge is possible, but I personally would find that cumbersome and fiddly, and it would also mean more things to look at on screen.
Petemaster has suggested some good ways combining Lara's movements with pressure senstive buttons. But like Vman says the PS2 controller sensitivities are not very good for this type of thing. Also, Pete's scheme is only for 5 variable jump distances (possibly more for sprint), which makes it easier to learn how to gauge jumps and whether you can make them or not.
I think I prefer a simple system. Until they improve the hardware, the actual controllers structurally, I think it'll be difficult to achieve a full range of jump lengths.
In theory in real life we can all jump between 0 and our personal maximum, but actually we do three basic kind of jumps - from standing (sort of hop with legs together), from standing (a leap, one leg first) and a running jump (either one leg first or together - depending on your preference). I'm NOT saying they should do this in the game... just, I personally wouldn't mind a more limited range of jump lengths and it wouldn't upset my immersion if they did.
I think whether it's tied to the grid or not (I actually think different people mean different things with this), Core chose 3 different jump strengths for a good reason. They extended this slightly in AoD with the hop and sprint jump, and I thought that worked well too. Personally I wouldn't mind if Crystal had a 3 or 5 jump distances in TR8.
How they can put that into their control scheme is limited. Running + jump, standing + jump, and introduce walk button + jump, would be good for starters though. [They need a walk button for this because the analogue sticks are quite tricky to maintain a walk on the PS2].
But whatever they do, the gameplay has to match the move options otherwise we'll just have a smart set of redundant movements that you never use.
As to grabs. I think you should be able to turn auto-grab off and have manual-grab, like you used to be able to turn auto-aim for shooting off. I always had auto-aim on but I know some people preferred manual. Why not accomodate grabbing in the same way?
Drop: 4 basic settings so there is a standard.
1. Drop for a set distance with no damage.
2. Drop past safe drop to another set distance with minimal damage. (slight)
3. Drop from slight damage to another set distance, lose half a life.
4. Drop anything past the half life loss and it ends in death. **I think this is a perfect scheme for drop/damage.
thepetemaster
16-09-06, 11:40
Good points Blackmoor. I think the presure system can easily be supported with the current hardware. A soft press and a hard press. Spread these out over the 4 jump types, and that gives you a nice array. That isn't including the Swan dive of course. I would rather see this kind of approach adopted, rather than give all the extra combos over to useless flips.
As for the grabbing, perhaps with autograb, the player will have the randomness of the two last grab animations. The people that choose manual would not have to worry about these last chance grabs, because they are already actively using a grab button.
I'm contented. Fine debate.Only makes lack a full table of coffee cups. (Yesterday, five in the morning I get up to read) :)
The intuition of movement, good point.
And on the pressure of the keys, so that not to replace it with time that you have it tight?
Only one thing, because whenever I must write a long text I am half day to make it. :D
You only speak of the longitudinal jumps, but and those of wall wall or those that are backwards?
My idea is a Lara raising between cliffs or walls of buildings of the old district of a city, jumping of facade in facade or between a great defile.
Solution:
“Key Thought”. This key would be available so that the voice of Lara in Off indicated to us what type of distance or jump must make according to towards where she was watching.
Example: “Mmmm I arrive there”, “Oh, I am risking too much”, or “nor crazy”
“Key Thought”. This key would be available so that the voice of Lara in Off indicated to us what type of distance or jump must make according to towards where she was watching.
Example: “Mmmm I arrive there”, “Oh, I am risking too much”, or “nor crazy”She did that a little bit in AoD. If she hadn't found a "strength upgrade" and so couldn't manage a long jump yet, she would say, "I'm not strong enough to jump over there", or something similar.
Personally I'd rather just try the jump and die if it's wrong, lol. :D
She did that a little bit in AoD. If she hadn't found a "strength upgrade" and so couldn't manage a long jump yet, she would say, "I'm not strong enough to jump over there", or something similar.
Personally I'd rather just try the jump and die if it's wrong, lol. :D
:D
thepetemaster
16-09-06, 13:05
Well Blackmoor, that is definitely one of the strengths of the old system, loveit or hateit. The visual cues were always present, it was up to the player to interperet these clues and made finding the way through a location all the more enjoyable. It was often very easy to predict the outcome of whatever jump you were going to use, before you actually tried it. This is something that CD will have to work on if they are to try and bolster the current style. Certainly the resolution of the current graphics should be able to offer some clear visual clues. The player should be able to get a feel for the distances and heights that Lara can successfully traverse. Certain textures and more angular ledges could be used for further clues.
Tampi, your solution to this is not too bad, but I can't see how they could work it in as a stand alone button (Perhaps on the PC). The weapon selection could always go back to the inventory, and free up the digital pad, or perhaps the RAD mode would be able to analyse gaps for you, relaying disatnces and heights if the player required them. Myself, I come from the same school as Blackmoor, Try it and see. (Watch excruitiating death scene, :mis: and then retry.)
There hasn't been much mention on the other jumps, ie backflips/ sideflips etc. I have been giving some thought to these matters and will post my conclusions soon. I am trying to keep things as simple as they can be, but still feel intuitive and yet retain a certain amount of depth/functionality to the proceedings.
C'mon CD, if a bunch of morons in a forum can think these things up, why can't you? Steal our ideas if necessary. ;)
C'mon CD, if a bunch of morons in a forum can think these things up, why can't you? Steal our ideas if necessary. ;)
Because we are the ones with the true instinct and passion.
Shark_Blade
24-09-06, 05:05
why don't they hire people (with "true instinct and passion") like us and comment on the game they make? I;m sure it'll satisfy most people
I feel stronger now. :tea:
Actually, I don't know why they don't ask us to work for them, or at least put out a form that would allow you to talk to Crystal employees and give them suggestions, or an IRC server that we could chat with them on, or something. What we have is this Forum.
Lara's ability to jump took a dive beginning in AOD. I actually don't have a problem with using natural "props" to make jumps seem more realistic, as in Peru, the vine to jump from pillar to wall, etc.
CD has actually attempted to re-vamp Lara's "jumping ability" in several ways...bars to jump and swing, ropes, horizontal bars to climb across, lines to slide across large open areas, ropes, etc. There is a lot of aerial movement in Legend and it does make jumping a lot more realistic. Even "free-style" such as in Peru when Lara is jumping from stair pillar to next pillar.
The real problem that CD has is making the environment expansive, with degrees of difficulty to "search and find" what is needed to complete the game. Every level in Legend has barriers that contain Lara in an area and forces her (and the gamer) to move in a certain direction to complete the level. And if that were not bad enough, there is Zip and Alister on the headset warning, telling, and making things even easier. Every cave was about 3' deep, except for the 1st cave in Bolivia. Every area prohibited jumping on rocks, boulders, ruins, except where CD wanted the player to move Lara. It was very restrictive in this way. The whole game could be described as a great big hallway that occassionally opened up to a large room, then back to a hallway again. It reminds me of the TR Times level in its "hallway-ishness", which was really just a additional freebie level, not a game.
TR is about open, expansive, explorable areas that make the gamer feel like they are the archaeologist. If CD wants to make things more realistic, and not include the "impossible jump" of days of old, ok, they have done it and done a reasonable job of it. However, there are some basics about TR that can not be changed. And that is exploration of tombs and ruins. Discovery of ancient and mystical things. Being alone in the tombs to face the unknown. Its not about having fun with the friends walkie-talkie style.
I think I have come up with a solution that will satisfy most people, be they console or PC users. I hope you will find it most agreeable.
Some console controllers have pressure sensitive triggers, like the Xbox and Gamecube, but PCs do not have this luxury. My idea is essentially a streamlined version of thepetemaster's idea. Instead of analogue buttons, I decided to go with taps and held presses of the jump button. I decided that Lara was about 5'10" tall, 5.8 feet, 70 inches, 177 centimeters, or 1.7 meters. 5.8 feet, is therefore the size of one Lara unit (Lunit).
----
Standing Postition:
This is the most basic jump in Lara's repetoire. It clears 1.5 Lunits, or about 8.5 feet. It is the only jump whose landing can be stuck. This is optional, however, one may instantly begin running after the landing.
Quick Tap: Short Hop or the negotiation of an obstacle (e.g railing, fallen log, large step)
Held Press: A full length standing jump (1.5 Lunits)
----
Running Postition:
This jump clears 2.5 Lunits, just shy of 15 feet. Lara must take a mandatory step after the landing, so doing this on a very small platform might be hard.
It requires 1 Lunit of runway.
Quick Tap: A lofty 2 Lunit jump or obstacle negotiation.
Held Press: Full 2.5 Lunit leap.
----
Sprinting Position:
From this position Lara can execute the jump known as an superjump, Matrix jump, crazy jump, or simply an AoD jump. It is the one where she throws her body as far as she can, flailing her arms and legs. This jump would clear a full 3.5 Lunits of terrain, or about 20 feet. It has drawbacks however. For example, there is a mandatory roll after the jump, regardless of whether you want to stop after you land. The other drawback is that Lara needs a 2 Lunit runway for the initial sprint:
Quick Tap: Forward dive roll, like in Chronicles and TR3.
Held Press: The flailing superjump.
----
I must say that this appears to go back to the grid system, but with a grid as small as Legend's, it simply doesn't matter. 1 Lunit is three steps, whatever. That doesn't mean we are grid based.
I think I have come up with a solution that will satisfy most people, be they console or PC users. I hope you will find it most agreeable.
Some console controllers have pressure sensitive triggers, like the Xbox and Gamecube, but PCs do not have this luxury. My idea is essentially a streamlined version of thepetemaster's idea. Instead of analogue buttons, I decided to go with taps and held presses of the jump button. I decided that Lara was about 5'10" tall, 5.8 feet, 70 inches, 177 centimeters, or 1.7 meters. 5.8 feet, is therefore the size of one Lara unit (Lunit).
----
Standing Postition:
This is the most basic jump in Lara's repetoire. It clears 1.5 Lunits, or about 8.5 feet. It is the only jump whose landing can be stuck. This is optional, however, one may instantly begin running after the landing.
Quick Tap: Short Hop or the negotiation of an obstacle (e.g railing, fallen log, large step)
Held Press: A full length standing jump (1.5 Lunits)
----
Running Postition:
This jump clears 2.5 Lunits, just shy of 15 feet. Lara must take a mandatory step after the landing, so doing this on a very small platform might be hard.
It requires 1 Lunit of runway.
Quick Tap: A lofty 2 Lunit jump or obstacle negotiation.
Held Press: Full 2.5 Lunit leap.
----
Sprinting Position:
From this position Lara can execute the jump known as an superjump, Matrix jump, crazy jump, or simply an AoD jump. It is the one where she throws her body as far as she can, flailing her arms and legs. This jump would clear a full 3.5 Lunits of terrain, or about 20 feet. It has drawbacks however. For example, there is a mandatory roll after the jump, regardless of whether you want to stop after you land. The other drawback is that Lara needs a 2 Lunit runway for the initial sprint:
Quick Tap: Forward dive roll, like in Chronicles and TR3.
Held Press: The flailing superjump.
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I must say that this appears to go back to the grid system, but with a grid as small as Legend's, it simply doesn't matter. 1 Lunit is three steps, whatever. That doesn't mean we are grid based.
What you're talking about here is the classic platformer solution. Mario 64 used a very similar system.
Tapping jump produces a hop whereas holding the jump button produces a leap. Attempting to jump sideways using such a system will either produce a quick sidestep or a sideways somersault. Were the walk/sprint features reintroduced there would be scope for an additonal 4 jump heights/distances. This would also add interest to combat sequences.
Yes, there may well be problems with animation frame transition given the sprite detail but that's not my problem!
Why directly associate height/length of jump with the environment when creating TR8? Providing obstacles don't max out Lara's capabilites then CD should allow themselves to have a sense of freedom when creating jump sections.
Judging distance, then using the correct jump will then be a whole new experience, even for seasoned TRs.
shaahinkaaveh
25-09-06, 14:39
I wasn't able to visit the forum when this topic was made and discussed. That's why I didn't participate in the discussions.
But there is something I don't get: What is the relation between the grid system and varying jump lengths? Unless I'm mistaken, AOD had no grid too, but it had different jumps. The game has to understand your status (standing, running, sprinting) when jump button is pressed. I guess the old TRs used the same technic. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
The basic difference in the solutions offered that I see comes in having a fixed number of jump types (i.e. fomatk's suggestion) and an unlimited number of jump lengths from 0 to max length (i.e. Pete's analog stick method)
The former is very similar to the grid based system. Lara can jump x, y, z lengths. The number of fixed lengths depends on your system you chose.
The latter has some kind of sliding scale that determines the length of the jump and requires that the gamer estimate the gap that has to be cleared and then apply the proper amount of effort represented by the scale. This would require more training on the part of the gamer but is more in-line with what you would do in reality.
BTW I like fomatk's idea of different landings based on the length of the jump. You need to bleed off momentum when you land the further you jump.
thepetemaster
25-09-06, 20:23
I was talking about using analogue buttons Samsdad, not the sticks. Perhaps just a typo on your part. I'm not sure how it could be done on the sticks.
I do like the idea that some jumps can't be stuck on landing though. Good to see there is still interest in this thread. :tmb:
Well, this may sound ridiculous...so bear with it. I have been thinking about the analog trigger method, and it seems like it needs to be streamlined because of all of its assorted combinations. Seriously, there are only a couple of places in any game where you would need a 3x.5 jump as opposed to a 3x1 or 3x2 jump. But this is nto the point of my post.
I think that on the really tricky jumps were distance is more questionable, maybe the camera would move over to another spot where the Player can see Lara from a different angle, e.g from the side, or underside, and therefore better decide which combination to use, or when to let go of the button when Lara reaches the apex of the jump.
What you're talking about here is the classic platformer solution. Mario 64 used a very similar system.
Tapping jump produces a hop whereas holding the jump button produces a leap. Attempting to jump sideways using such a system will either produce a quick sidestep or a sideways somersault. Were the walk/sprint features reintroduced there would be scope for an additonal 4 jump heights/distances. This would also add interest to combat sequences.
Yes, there may well be problems with animation frame transition given the sprite detail but that's not my problem!
Why directly associate height/length of jump with the environment when creating TR8? Providing obstacles don't max out Lara's capabilites then CD should allow themselves to have a sense of freedom when creating jump sections.
Judging distance, then using the correct jump will then be a whole new experience, even for seasoned TRs.
So...do you prefer my idea or Pete's?
Well, this may sound ridiculous...so bear with it. I have been thinking about the analog trigger method, and it seems like it needs to be streamlined because of all of its assorted combinations. Seriously, there are only a couple of places in any game where you would need a 3x.5 jump as opposed to a 3x1 or 3x2 jump. But this is nto the point of my post.
I think that on the really tricky jumps were distance is more questionable, maybe the camera would move over to another spot where the Player can see Lara from a different angle, e.g from the side, or underside, and therefore better decide which combination to use, or when to let go of the button when Lara reaches the apex of the jump.
So...do you prefer my idea or Pete's?
I guess yours is closer to my way of thinking.
I would reject any AUTO camera movement though. The gamer should be forced into having to judge distance/type of jump with Lara falling to her death if necessary until becoming proficient.
I want controlling Lara to be ultra realistic in the sense that you yourself are about to be mauled by a trap or fall into the abyss.
:wve:
What I am talking about, this Action Camera, is in Just Cause (that comes up a lot these days) and when you drive a car off a cliff and get much height, the camera switches over to a cinematic view, instead of a controlled 3rd Person Controllable view. It might be optional. Maybe you would tap the J key to center the camera back behind Lara's head, and if you held it, you would get a mini menu with these options:
Lock...
Lock Behind
Lock Front
Lock Left
Lock Right
Lock Current View
Action Camera...
Activate/Deactivate
Automatic/Manual
Advanced...
Invert X Axis
Invert Y Axis
Other Camera options
Reset
I'd be fine with an auto-cinematic view.
I thought you meant having the camera automatically move to a position making the task easier for the gamer to achieve.
:wve:
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