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wantafanta
30-09-06, 21:55
Just one more reason to be proud to be American. I thought America did away with this backward nonsense decades ago. Guess I was wrong. If the picture doesn't show, you should be able to find the article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/30/education/30punish.html?ex=1159761600&en=616c273a19ad2417&ei=5087%0A

http://graphics10.nytimes.com/images/2006/09/29/us/30punish600.1.jpg

EVERMAN, Tex. — Anthony Price does not mince words when talking about corporal punishment — which he refers to as taking pops — a practice he recently reinstated at the suburban Fort Worth middle school where he is principal.


Mark Graham for The New York Times
Tina Morgan did not object to corporal punishment until she saw the bruises when her son, Travis, 12, was paddled in Robeson County, N.C.
“I’m a big fan,” Mr. Price said. “I know it can be abused. But if used properly, along with other punishments, a few pops can help turn a school around. It’s had a huge effect here.”

Tina Morgan, who works on a highway crew in rural North Carolina, gave permission for her son to be paddled in his North Carolina middle school. But she said she was unprepared for Travis, now 12, to come home with a backside that was a florid kaleidoscope of plums and lemons and blood oranges.

“This boy might need a blistering now and then, with his knucklehead,” Ms. Morgan said, swatting at him playfully, but she added that she never wanted him to be beaten like that. “I’ve decided, we’ve got to get corporal punishment out of the schools.”

Over most of the country and in all but a few major metropolitan areas, corporal punishment has been on a gradual but steady decline since the 1970’s, and 28 states have banned it. But the practice remains alive, particularly in rural parts of the South and the lower Midwest, where it is not only legal, but also widely practiced.

In a handful of districts, like the one here in Everman, there have been recent moves to reinstate it, some successful, more not. In Delaware, a bill to rescind that state’s ban on paddling never got through the legislature. But in Pike County, Ohio, corporal punishment was reinstated last year. And in southeast Mississippi, the Laurel school board voted in August to reinstate a corporal punishment policy, passing one that bars men from paddling women, but does not require parental consent, as many other policies do.

The most recent federal statistics show that during the 2002-3 school year, more than 300,000 American schoolchildren were disciplined with corporal punishment, usually one or more blows with a thick wooden paddle. Sometimes holes were cut in the paddle to make the beating more painful. Of those students, 70 percent were in five Southern states: Texas, Mississippi, Tennessee, Alabama and Arkansas.

Often the battle over corporal punishment is being fought on the edges of Southern cities, where suburban growth pushes newcomers from across the country into rural and religiously conservative communities. In these areas, educators say, corporal punishment is far more accepted, resulting in clashing attitudes about child-rearing and using the rod.

“I couldn’t believe it when I learned about it,” said Peggy Dean, a mother of three students in Union County, N.C., a rapidly growing suburb south of Charlotte. “If I’d known, I’d never have moved into this school district.”

As views of child-rearing have changed, groups like the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Association of School Psychologists and the American Medical and Bar Associations have come out against corporal punishment.

“I believe we have reached the point in our social evolution where this is no longer acceptable, just as we reached a point in the last half of the 19th century where husbands using corporal punishment on their wives was no longer acceptable,” said Murray Straus, a director of the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire.

Among adherents of the practice is James C. Dobson, the child psychologist who founded Focus on the Family and is widely regarded as one of the nation’s most influential evangelical leaders.

DuBose Ravenel, a North Carolina pediatrician who is the in-house expert on the subject for Mr. Dobson’s group, said, “I believe the whole country would be better off if corporal punishment was allowed in schools by parents who wish it.”

Dozens of lawsuits have been filed around the country, including as recently as August in a case involving a student and a baseball coach in Cameron County, Okla., but thus far, courts have tended to side with school districts in cases where a corporal punishment policy is on the books, said Nadine Block, the director of the Center for Effective Discipline, a group opposed to the practice.

In North Carolina, paddling is banned in the largest cities, like Charlotte. It remains legal in 70 percent of the state’s districts, although since they tend to be small and rural, fewer than half of the state’s students are covered.

Union County is one of the nation’s fastest-growing, with dozens of new suburban developments, often populated with transplants from the Northeast and elsewhere.

Ms. Dean, one of those transplants, came across the corporal punishment provisions while reading through her new district’s school policies and, shocked, decided to mount a campaign to have it outlawed that has made her the bane of local officials.

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Paddling in Public Schools “They don’t like outsiders coming in and telling them how to run their schools,” Ms. Dean said.

She rallied others to the cause, finally forcing a vote on the issue last year.

School board members voted 5 to 3 to ban the practice, but under the district’s rules, a supermajority of six votes was needed, so the policy remains on the books.

“Some of our school board members felt that, if it were used correctly, as it would be, corporal punishment would be yet another deterrent to keep students from misbehaving,” said Luan Ingram, the chief communications officer for the district.

Still, Ms. Ingram said, “none of our 41 principals have chosen to use it, and none of them plan to use it.”

One of those who joined Ms. Dean’s crusade was John Erker, who retired from the New York City Police Department and relocated his family to North Carolina.

“We thought it would be a lifestyle for the whole family down here, a little more laid-back, a little more country,” Mr. Erker said. “But we’re in the middle of the Bible Belt, and a lot of these old-school people really believe that this is the right thing to do with children.”

In more rural Robeson County, Ms. Morgan said her son, Travis, was punished last year for taking part in a punching game called flinching. She complained that it was too severe, but district officials ruled that the paddling had been justified.

Al Kahn, a spokesman for the district, said he understood that corporal punishment was not embraced everywhere. “I guess every part of the country has a different way of looking at things,” Mr. Kahn said, “and down here we’re pretty unique.”

Mr. Price, the middle school principal, also said corporal punishment worked. He arrived at the school two years ago, hired, he said, to turn around an institution that was rife with fights, students cursing teachers and gang activity.

Not until months after he arrived, Mr. Price said, did a parent tell him that corporal punishment was used at the high school. He got permission to reinstate it in the middle school, too, and began with the 2005-6 school year, during which 150 of the school’s 685 students were paddled.

The Everman district is not unique in the Dallas-Fort Worth area in allowing corporal punishment. A study by The Dallas Morning News in August placed it fifth among area districts in instances of corporal punishment, far behind schools in Prosper, north of Dallas, for instance, where nearly 15 percent of the students were paddled in the 2005-6 school year.

But, in two of Dallas’s largest suburban districts, Plano and Frisco, paddling was banned this year, as it was in Memphis last year.

Mr. Price said he initially encountered resistance. “I was cursed out so much, I couldn’t believe it,” he said. “And I’m talking about the parents.”

But gradually, the tenor of the school turned around, he said, for the better. He designed what he called the school’s “discipline ladder,” beginning with a warning for a first offense and escalating through push-ups, detentions and isolation from the other students during the school day.

Finally, there is the fifth rung. At that level, in consultation with parents, students can choose among corporal punishment, having their parents “shadow” them through a full school day, night school or outright suspension. In 8 cases out of 10, Mr. Price said, the students choose the paddling, although this is allowed only a few times.

“If it’s not changing their behavior, then we figure the pops aren’t working and we try something else,” Mr. Price said.

Mr. Price said he definitely believed there was a “cultural factor” behind the persistence of corporal punishment in some parts of the country after it has disappeared elsewhere.

“You hear people say, Well, you know, it’s in the Bible, don’t spare the rod and spoil the child,” he said.

He uses it, he said, because he believes it works.

“The rule is, never hit in anger,” Mr. Price said. “We always talk to the child before the punishment, make sure they understand why it’s happening, and then talk to them again afterward. None of it is cold or harsh. We try to treat the kids like they’re our own.”

Camera Obscura
30-09-06, 22:01
No one has the right to touch your body, not even for a spank.

I think it's disgusting that people continue to do this at schools. There is after all a fine line between spanking and beating out of anger.

wantafanta
30-09-06, 22:04
Agree 100%. That's why I was so shocked that this still was going on. I thought we were more advanced than that.

viper456
30-09-06, 22:15
as wrong as it is..some kids really do deserve a smack..no really some are awful.

Reggie
30-09-06, 22:19
In my view children should be taught to respect rather than fear their superiors - there is a significant differance between the two and I believe these children are being taught to fear.

Geck-o-Lizard
30-09-06, 22:20
I agree with corporal punishment in principle. If teachers were allowed to give the class idiots a sharp whack, I think a lot of them would start keeping their stupid mouths shut during the lessons instead of trying to interrupt all the time and stopping the rest of the kids in the class from working. However I do realise that most teachers would be unable to keep emotionally detached from the punishment, which would inevitably lead to injured students, and on those grounds I don't support corporal punishment actually being practised in schools.

Pushups, situps, jumping jacks, etc. on the other hand; with a usage guideline, those would be useful punishments that wouldn't cause harm to the kids receiving them. Fifty pushups for being a serial smart-ass would make them think twice about shouting out again.

Mr.Burns
30-09-06, 22:20
as wrong as it is..some kids really do deserve a smack..no really some are awful.

Oh yea, nothing like seeing a 12 year old kid hitting and yelling at his little sister, using profanity that had me floored and all of this infront of his mother who seemed to not give a damn while they were in a restaurant. Yup, there are definitely some kids (and some parents) who need a good smack.

Lenochka
30-09-06, 22:24
Any spanking in my opinion is wrong. All it does is shows the child thats the way to keep someone in order... is to smack them.

viper456
30-09-06, 22:26
I agree with corporal punishment in principle. If teachers were allowed to give the class idiots a sharp whack, I think a lot of them would start keeping their stupid mouths shut during the lessons instead of trying to interrupt all the time and stopping the rest of the kids in the class from working. However I do realise that most teachers would be unable to keep emotionally detached from the punishment, which would inevitably lead to injured students, and on those grounds I don't support corporal punishment actually being practised in schools.

Pushups, situps, jumping jacks, etc. on the other hand; with a usage guideline, those would be useful punishments that wouldn't cause harm to the kids receiving them. Fifty pushups for being a serial smart-ass would make them think twice about shouting out again.

the exercise idea is good :)

the other option would be to make a smacking machine. :)! that way the smack would always be of the same level and the teacher couldnt get emotional and start beating crap out of the kid...ok so the exercise is a better idea lol

viper456
30-09-06, 22:27
Any spanking in my opinion is wrong. All it does is shows the child thats the way to keep someone in order... is to smack them.

some kids really dont understand anything else..i live with one. He doesnt understand reason , hes an awful person. A smack here or there wouldnt go a miss, but my parents arent like that

Paperdoll
30-09-06, 22:28
Some teachers don't need to smack or yell to keep order, it's about the person as well. But it's not teachers' fault IMO, it's the parents (cliché I know). How many times have I seen kids running around in the street without their parents around, shoving things off of shelves in supermarkets, rolling around in a pile of dirt, etc etc, with their parents doing nothing but yelling in the distance? And I'm talking about 4/5 year olds here. If I did that when I was a kid, I'd get a look, a single look and I'd quit it. 90% of times, the look wasn't even necessary XD

I believe spanking isn't the answer and the idea that Geck gave is a pretty good one, physical punishment with no harm, something unpleasant (50 push-ups out of the blue in the middle of class can be a bit unpleasant XD) to associate with bad behaviour, other than spanking is the way. My psychology teacher took the humilliation way (if you act smart, then you get dissed) and it worked pretty damn well.

Lenochka
30-09-06, 22:29
some kids really dont understand anything else..i live with one. He doesnt understand reason , hes an awful person. A smack here or there wouldnt go a miss, but my parents arent like that

yeah sometimes it works, but my little brother got smacked as a baby for things. Now he is really violent... like throwing shoes at my mom when he can't have a cookie or whatever Violent

viper456
30-09-06, 22:31
yeah sometimes it works, but my little brother got smacked as a baby for things. Now he is really violent... like throwing shoes at my mom when he can't have a cookie or whatever Violent

oh dear :( my brother is awful, we have holes in his bedroom wall where he has hit it out of anger from losing at a game or something stupid like that.

he swears at my mum and is jsut a really nasty person. Hes 15.

and thats without a good smackdown!

jarhead
30-09-06, 22:32
I agree with corporal punishment in principle. If teachers were allowed to give the class idiots a sharp whack, I think a lot of them would start keeping their stupid mouths shut during the lessons instead of trying to interrupt all the time and stopping the rest of the kids in the class from working. However I do realise that most teachers would be unable to keep emotionally detached from the punishment, which would inevitably lead to injured students, and on those grounds I don't support corporal punishment actually being practised in schools.

Pushups, situps, jumping jacks, etc. on the other hand; with a usage guideline, those would be useful punishments that wouldn't cause harm to the kids receiving them. Fifty pushups for being a serial smart-ass would make them think twice about shouting out again.

Agreed.

Smacking students will inevitable lead to students com,plaing and it all going to plot IMO. However excersise is a great idea, maybe having to do excersise in detention or something would A. teach them discipline and B. make them fitter and healthier.

I think thats the best way to go about stupid arrogant back chatting kids in school.

I also have to agree with Viper, some kids in our school need an awful lot more, perferable having their tongues and hands cut off, honestly they might not have respect or anything but children these days are getting far more violent.

Paperdoll
30-09-06, 22:36
Because the parents are ****ers that see kids as a mere accessory or just an obstacle that they have to try to avoid. I've seen way too many times and they couldn't care less about educating them. Probably they were an accident so why bother, let's just screw around with our 3 year old daughter sleeping in the same bed.

I don't know if I'll ever have kids but if I do, one thing is certain, my kids won't be stupid good for nothing sons of a *****... and if they are, they're seriously screwed. It'll be like hell on earth for them.

If you put them in this world, you have the responsability to make them people, in other words, make sure that they are civilized and that use their brain for more than just moving their limbs. Schools are turning into dumpsters and then it's up to the teachers to educate them... *sigh*

tlr online
30-09-06, 22:40
Some people need a slap now and again.

Camera Obscura
30-09-06, 23:05
Pushups, situps, jumping jacks, etc. on the other hand; with a usage guideline, those would be useful punishments that wouldn't cause harm to the kids receiving them. Fifty pushups for being a serial smart-ass would make them think twice about shouting out again.

A good idea but I think what children need is good Saturday Detention to think about what they've done. My school has these rules for a Saturday detention

- 3 hours
- You sit and cannot get up unless for a restroom break
- You talk to others, put your head down, sleep, or get up without permission then you get another Saturday Detention
- The fun thing to this is that you get to spend 3 hours with the Dean of Students who watches you for the entire period.

But usually you have to do really bad to get Saturday detention. Just my thought.

Lavinder
01-10-06, 10:04
You think that boys don't hurt themselves while they are having a play fight? A little spank won't do, the only way to get it in there heads is to beat the **** out of them but that won't be allowed.

Night Crawler
01-10-06, 10:19
Would anyone blame the kids if they turned around and hit back?

Shark_Blade
01-10-06, 10:25
Kids nowadays thought thay could just walk over anybody they can. I don't see no problem with spanking them if used properly. I remember once my friend smoke in the school area, my teacher slam his head on a locker door. They are here to teach us and some kind of punishment is okay by me. I deserve it sometime too. It is essential for us well behavior. If you don't want to get punish, don't do it. Not go make some silly report if it's not serious. They're sissy boys.


I don't know about girls though, but let the women teachers handle them their ways.

Elysia
01-10-06, 10:43
Would anyone blame the kids if they turned around and hit back?
Heh, kids do that anyway, without provocation. I know, because it's happened to me. I stupidly told a boy off and got smacked in the head for it. He got 3 days suspension - I had a nervous breakdown and was off work for 6 months. Who do you think got off the lighter?

In my career, I have witnessed / heard about more teachers being beaten / hit / threatened with rape (yes, RAPE) than kids being threatened by teachers. Kids nowadays have no fear nor respect of ANYTHING. They're constantly told from a young age that they're special, and that if anyone tells them differently, then there are X amount of helplines and laws to fall back on. A kid can tell me to **** off, can tell me to shut up, can tell me I'm 'boring' and that I should get out of their ****ing face - yet if I tell a kid to simply 'shut up' - I get hauled in front of a disciplinary board.

I don't think whacking them is necessarily a good thing, but the ability to actually punish kids rather than trying to negotiate with them is essential. This punishment should be at home as well as in school - it annoys me no end that I spend half my time on the phone to kid's parents, telling them that their brats are running riot, and all they can say is 'yes, she's like that at home - I think she amy have X disorder' and 'I can't do anything'. Well - here's what you can do, elstupidoparent - DISCIPLINE YOUR KIDS! If they're misbehaving at school - GROUND THEM. Take away things that they care about - TV, computer games, trips out, the ability to see their friends... my parents used this, and guess what? I was never in trouble at school, I've never been in trouble with the police, I have a good education and I'm a well-rounded, well adjusted member of society. Hell, I even feel guilty if I drop *litter* (whcih I've never knowingly done, and always pick up stuff I accidently drop). It's not 'stifling' your child - it's not being 'cruel' - it's making sure that, at the end of the day, they have boundaries and realise that their actions DO have an effect on other people, and so should be able to modify their behaviour accordingly - that they are NOT the centre of the world, and that their behaviour is selfish, unbecoming and not acceptable.

Lavinder
01-10-06, 11:05
I do think beating kids makes them worse, they think its right to beat people up just because everyone around them is beating them up.
They grow up with that imbalance in thier head, you probably can't see it but some day they will flip out and do something they regret (or not regret if they are disturbed enough)

Pick up on the things they love like : Computer, tv, hanging out with friends. So if they do anything wrong you can hurt them by stopping this from happening, if the kid throws a wobbly and get voilent you can call the police or threaten that you are going to put them in a childrens home.

This works, I know because I know from personal experience. Before I throw something at my sister my arm twiches then I restrain myself because I know that I will get a week off my computer. I will get more irritated as days go by when i'm banned from my computer so I take it out of my parents and make it worse for myself. Therefore leaving a scar in my mind to not ever throw things at my sister because I will be banned from my computer.

lita212
01-10-06, 11:58
sick pervs that is so perverted

Cochrane
01-10-06, 12:30
I'd prefer if people didn't teach small children that using violence to resolve problems is correct. I agree that there has to be punishment in some way, but using corporal punishment is something that I cannot agree with.

Shark_Blade
01-10-06, 14:11
Sometimes it is necessary Cochrane.Even when with a dog, if you didn't show who is the master, it'll bite you.

MiCkiZ88
01-10-06, 14:17
Sometimes it is necessary Cochrane.Even when with a dog, if you didn't show who is the master, it'll bite you.
kinda agree.. but without the dog part :p

heck I've been tought to respect and fear elders.. and violence aint my solution for problems cause of that.. but sometimes I deserved a good spanking.. and that really tought me to do what Im told to do and not to fool around.. :)

and elysia has a good point there :tmb: Even at my school I've seen some pupils threatening teachers and that's just horrible.. :(

Shark_Blade
01-10-06, 14:29
^see what I mean. When I was a student I couldn't care much about teachers, but now that I'm in uni,I realize I appreciate them very much. They are like your second important people in your life after your parents, which makes them so special.

They teach you and guide you to behave well as a good human being. And what do they get in return? They're not very well paid I have to admit, and it's not fair for them with all that threat,hatred and boycott from students they have to endure every single day. They are just doing their job.(Gosh I don't know how to explain these, but you get the drift)

So a little spank won't hurt much as to discipline us. It's really weird today that teachers are now afraid of students.It should be the opposite. If a teacher make a wrong move, the pupils' parents will go complaining and try to use the law in the court, which I think is riddiculous, but that's the world we are living nowadays.

Jamie18
01-10-06, 14:42
Well I think there needs to be SOMETHING done, although I'm not sure that this is the answer.

Today, teachers have their hands completely tied - it's the students who rule the school, not the teachers - they can't even say things these days without the threat of being fired or sued or whatever.

xMiSsCrOfTx
01-10-06, 14:52
It's sick that teachers have resorted to beating/spanking the students in order to gain some control over them... I'm losing faith in humanity more and more each day.

Laras Backpack
01-10-06, 14:52
It feels like the UK has gone from one extreme to the other with regards to discipline in schools. When my aunt was young would be hit on the hand at school by the teacher for writing with her left hand. It was a way of getting all children to write with their right hands.
I left school 4 years ago and it was pretty bad at times. My school was at the mercy of the disruptive students. Many of my classes were ruined at GCSE (maths, Spanish, PE and Science) because of the students that could not be controlled. I remember when we had a temporary replacement maths teacher for a few months and he could not control the class. It would take half an hour for him to get everyone working! It was his responsibility to be more comanding, but these particular students were the same in almost every class as long as they could get away with it. Detentions and letters home did nothing.
I was only able to maintain my grades by working on my own and ignoring the noise. However, some of my fellow students couldn't do this and really there was no reason why they should have to. They deserved the attention of the teachers but the attention is wasted on the loud and disruptive kids.
I don't think smacking is the answer but something has to be done to discipline these brats both in their homes and at school.

Gabi
01-10-06, 17:34
Corporal punishment is not the answer in my opinion.
I believe that the whole concept of education (at home!!!! and in institutions) needs to be reviewed. Parents nowadays are at a loss when it comes to decide what is good for their children and what is not. So to not "harm" or "damage" their children psychologically or mentally they give in to their every whim and demand, let them get away with everything and are not consequent. And that starts at a very young age.

I work with children from 2 months up to 4 years old and you would honestly not believe what I sometimes come across:
children sleeping in their parent's bed,
children being driven around in the car by one parent while being fed by the other,
children getting bought whatever they want ( a mobile for a 4 year old!!!) " because we can afford it, so why not?",
children smacking, kicking and biting their parents (and other children!!) when they don't get to have their way,
children throwing toys and chairs across the room.
The list is endless, but I think you get the idea.
And these children are of an average age of 2 years!!!! Of course they think that the world evolves around them and are not able to cope when they realise that in fact this is not the case. You can't really blame them.

What I fail to understand is that parents are not able to see that they do much more harm by bringing their children up like this than by setting proper rules and boundaries.
Children need clear rules and boundaries, something they can orientate themselves on, without them they are at a loss in a world that is confusing enough on its own.

Children are also members of the society, and in a society rules and boundaries are needed to make it work. But this society we (and today's children) are living in, spoils children rotten on one hand and on the other complains about their behaviour. Hello - time to wake up!!

Even in our profession many people still think that "telling children off" is not good for them and may damage their (the children's) self esteem. So they say in a friendly voice and with a smile on their face: "That was not very nice of you to poke that pencil in Ben's eye on purpose - look, now his eye is bleeding. Go and say sorry."
Of course I am exaggerating a lot in this example, but in essence this is what happens a lot.

I am with supernanny (no, I don't agree with everything she does and says), but: 1. Tell them not to behave in a certain way and the reason why (according to the age of the child). 2.Give them a warning telling them what the consequence will be if they do it again. 3. React and put the consequence into action.
The success rate is very high (even though in some cases it may take a while :D ), it works with children of a very young age and there is no need to smack or spank them.



Edit: @ Shark Blade: sorry :o

Shark_Blade
01-10-06, 19:13
^Gabi.

Oh my eyes!!!:eek: my eyes!!! :eek:
do put in paragraphs and normal fonts please:)

Jamie18
01-10-06, 23:46
It could be worse. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060925/ts_nm/china_teacher_dc_1)

That is horrific.

Angel666
02-10-06, 00:15
Lots of people don't know the difference between abuse and disipline. If I ever caused problems in school, if I ever hurt another student or my parent you better believe I got my ass whooped. I am a well-rounded generally nice person (I like to think :D ) and I know not to do anything stupid and get in trouble. I cant watch supernanny any more b/c I'm disgusted by how those childeren are acting. I don't care if your a single mom, I don't care if your the step-dad and not the real dad. If the kid you are in charge of acts up it's YOUR FAULT. I agree with all of the posts stating that some kids just need a good smack.

BoyTRaider
02-10-06, 00:15
Although some people truly deserve slapping or even worse, I think this concept is completely wrong. I guess violence is not an issue to get rid of after all. :rolleyes: :(

Spitfire
02-10-06, 00:56
Punishment is left for the parents at home, thats what teacher conferences and suspensions are for, malconduct and class disturbances. I don't believe any other adult should touch a child in any way or form. I know i would be extremely angry if a teacher hit one of my children without my consent.

Angel666
02-10-06, 01:25
The real shame is that suspension is often seen as a vacation. Usually the types of students who are suspended are the students with parents who don't disipline and so he gets a week vacation for acting up.

Shark_Blade
02-10-06, 01:43
I don't mind if my children got their ass whoop by their teacher if it's necessary to discipline them, just so there's no broken bones or fractures that is.


@Jamie: :eek: Oh my God....that's horrific. And it's a girl the teacher was abusing. :mad: That one gone waay to far! That crazy teacher must have some mental problem for stomping and throwing a pupils' body through the window:mad: