View Full Version : Do we want auto-grab in TR:Anniversary?
Shark_Blade
31-10-06, 03:46
Since it's a remake of tr1, imagine getting those jumps and Lara automatically grabs the ledge.
I don't like that.:o They have to make options to switch on/off for auto-grabs.What do you think?
nah the autograb was fun dont forget that sometimes it didnt work.
Shark_Blade
31-10-06, 03:53
^ I can't seem to find the "fun" factor in autograb. yes it help you a lot but it narrows your probability/likely to fall down the chasm below. There's no challenge to it. I shall snore everytime Lara does a "death-defying" jumps in legend.:o
NO NO NO NO NO and NO. :p
Just to clear that up, no. We want the old grabs Crystal Dynamics, don't let us down!
But since they're using the Legend Engine it will most likely be auto-grab. :(
lmao! I want something a lil better than walk to the edge tap backwards and run forward jump and while in mid air hold and press the action button.
Shark_Blade
31-10-06, 03:57
you don't need to tap back once all the time. most of the time I just ran and jump over the ledge risking it. I get used to it now.
Mikel Croft
31-10-06, 04:54
Absolutely NOT.
Who are we trying to kid now? Do we all honestly believe Eidos will go back to the old jumping system when all the reviews raved about how fun it was to control Lara? I think not. And I don't really have any qualms with the auto grab feature at all. It's used in most of my favorite action adventure titles (ICO, Prince of Persia, Ocarina of Time, etc.) and the platforming in those is excellent. Albeit, I do believe Eidos should make it a tad less "automatic." In Legend Lara seemed to have a magnetic pull to most ledges she jumped to.
Auto-grab??? Hellz no.
Shiny flashing HINTS?? Good lord no.
Zip yapping in our ear all game long?? Cripes no.
Magnetic grappling hook to grab shiny hints to get past level?s? Get real.
Jumps that are all the same length?? What the heck for??
Gimme the good old SKILL based control system from the original games.
Gimme a vast, open enviroment to explore.
Gimme that TOMB RAIDER feel back.
Please.
Um, what was the question again? "Do we want auto-grab in TR:Anniversary? "
No Celibrate the aniversary of a classic by ****ing around with one of the basics? I hope not
Um, what was the question again? "Do we want auto-grab in TR:Anniversary? "
No Celibrate the aniversary of a classic by ****ing around with one of the basics? I hope not
i take it you didnt like auto grab?
PirateRose
31-10-06, 05:30
I didn't mind the auto grab. The only problem I had was I could just tap and jump off an edge. She had to flip around and grab the edge.
I guess Auto grab actually worked for me.
Though I do miss the old fashion way, I doubt they are going to bring that back. We are just going to either have to accept the change or just not buy the game. They go play the out of date old fashion ones that already barely work on PC correctly. Sooner or later PS2 is going to fail us.
Damn technology and its constantly changing.
i take it you didnt like auto grab?
I take it you are psychic? :jmp: (hated it)
Skipperdoo
31-10-06, 05:47
I think auto-grab is fine.
I think auto-grab is fine.
Autograb makes the games way too easy, the thing about the classic Tomb Raiders is that there were alot of risky jumps involved, one false move and you're an egg omlett. In Legend one false move and you autograb to safety, so see even the slighest little things can change the difficulty. No autograb CD please! :(
I guess it's only fair to have the option to turn it on/off.
Skipperdoo
31-10-06, 06:13
I guess it's only fair to have the option to turn it on/off.
This would probably be best.
I dread to think how they are going to implement some of the more complicated level designs with the autograb in mind... but I seriously doubt they'll scrap it for this. I think this is why all the press releases hint about doing things differently - so they can compensate for the limitations of their engine. So when we all say 'WTF?!? What happened to the rock-scrambling that we had to do on X level in the original?! It's been replaced with a corridor with a climable wall-crack!!', they've got something they can fall back on to.
I would love to see the death of the autograb and the return of full control. The potential for more complicated level design and fully explorable environments is massive when the autograb is taken out of the equation, because it is the *player* who decides what they want Lara to try to grab onto, NOT the game. When the game decides where you can go and where you can't go for you, it seriously cuts down that feeling of interactivity and immersion - since TR1 oozed that... *worries*
I think the auto grab is not a good idea!
We dont need auto animations!!!:p
from reading all this we should e able to custimize Laras animations
To put it the short way - No.
To put it the long way - Hell no.
Though another 'on off option' wouldn't go amiss.
I wouldn't mind if the grab were handled in AOD style. You press action to make Lara grab but you don't have to hold it.
Zelda master
31-10-06, 11:09
if you have to press action yourself i deffinantly wouldnt mind, But legends was really evil that she did it herself:mad:
No, I want all the orignal controls back.
Night Crawler
31-10-06, 11:11
No, Lara isn't supposed to think for herself, If I want to walk her off the end of a cliff, I should be able to!
The autograb was the best part of the Tomb Raider series.
No, although I could very well live with an autograb option - I simply wouldn't use it.
illuminati30
31-10-06, 12:49
I am almost certain it will be there. No i do not want it.
Sadly i get the feeling it is here to stay, and as long as we are controlling Lara with the analogue stick it will always be there.
Plus, her new prince of persia style moves, of holding onto a ledge, jumping backwards onto something else, would not be possible without autograb.
We will never get rid of auto grab now! :(
To put it the short way - No.
To put it the long way - Hell no.
Ditto and Ditto
No, autograb sucks! :cen: I play a game to do the things in it myself, I don't want the game doing it for me. I'm not so uncoordinated that I can't handle grabbing the ledge myself, why should the game do it for me? Why make the game easier? I want the game to be hard, not play on auto pilot. In that case why don't you hire someone else to play the game for you? Obviously pushing buttons is too hard on your delicate fingers if you need the game to do things for you instead of doing it yourself! :hea:
laracroft_lover
31-10-06, 13:37
If someone thinks the old controls will be back, then keep dreaming...lol
No, Lara isn't supposed to think for herself, If I want to walk her off the end of a cliff, I should be able to!
Exactly my opinion.
While I am not violently opposed against auto-grab and would buy the game even if it did have it, I'd prefer if it was not added.
interstellardave
31-10-06, 15:45
Why do these same topics keep coming up? Just to raise peoples' blood pressure? Thevman, poor fellow, may not make it the release of this game at this rate... :p
Autograb?
hmmm let's see
jump and plummit to ones doom or have a helping hand??
i'd rather plummit to my doom...so NO autograb :mad:
Why do these same topics keep coming up? Just to raise peoples' blood pressure? Thevman, poor fellow, may not make it the release of this game at this rate... :p
Thanks for watching out for me dave! :tmb: :hug: I'll go take my heart medicine now... :p
Absolutely No. Not on your nelly. No Autograb - you're not getting in TRA, not by the hairs on your chinny chin chin!
Difficult platform jumps are what are needed - ones that you have to try several times before Lara makes it, otherwise...kersplat!
StarCroft:AOD
31-10-06, 16:19
Urmm I'm sure we will get it, but I prefer it has an option, or available only in Easy Difficulty, if I can't choose, I say: No thanks.
interstellardave
31-10-06, 16:27
Thanks for watching out for me dave! :tmb: :hug: I'll go take my heart medicine now... :p
That's good,because I'd hate to see a Twilight Zone-style ending to this story! You suffer a stroke getting all worked up about AE. Then, after it's release you are informed that it is truly everything you wanted it to be--but now you can't play it! :eek: The final irony would be that you would have to watch someone else play it for you; so no auto-grab for you, rather full AUTOPLAY! :cln:
I'd pay you to play it for me in the hostipal room and shed tears of joy if it was everything I wanted! :D
I'd pay you to play it for me in the hostipal room and shed tears of joy if it was everything I wanted! :D
...Hell, I'd play it for vman in the hospital room wearing nothing but a playboy bunny suit if it ends up being everything I want it to be!
illuminati30
31-10-06, 16:42
...Hell, I'd play it for vman in the hospital room wearing nothing but a playboy bunny suit if it ends up being everything I want it to be!
That should be an unloackable :)
interstellardave
31-10-06, 16:43
...Hell, I'd play it for vman in the hospital room wearing nothing but a playboy bunny suit if it ends up being everything I want it to be!
I need to find a picture of you now... could be a good fantasy a-brewing! :mis:
Oh, and I think, in that scenario, thevman would have autograb on, LOL!
...Hell, I'd play it for vman in the hospital room wearing nothing but a playboy bunny suit if it ends up being everything I want it to be!
Are you trying to give me ANOTHER heart attack!? :eek: (please do!) http://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/naughty.gif
I need to find a picture of you now... could be a good fantasy a-brewing! :mis:
Oh, and I think, in that scenario, thevman would have autograb on, LOL!
She wouldn't be able to pry my dead hands off her! :vlol:
See, CD? See what levels I am willing to stoop to? :rolleyes: :p
To keep the newbie fanbase from TRL, it might be worth retaining autograb as an option - though I certainly won't be using it.
:wve:
Why do these same topics keep coming up? Just to raise peoples' blood pressure? Thevman, poor fellow, may not make it the release of this game at this rate... :p
A lot of the old thread topics are reappearing with a lot of the old comments. Vman is from Chi-town and that is typical behavior. Maybe a little ramped up since the Bears are doing so well.
Back on topic, I have to disagree with Elysia. In the old TR1 there were definately rocks you could climb on and definately rocks that you should have been able to climb on but couldn't. It generally became a matter of trying to see if you could or couldn't. Auto grab does not change that. If you want to program the ability to climb on everything (my preference) then you just have to make sure that you animate it correctly. Pressing extra buttons or autograb, it is the same thing from a programming perspective.
My take on the old system is that after a few training jumps it becomes auto-pilot any way. It does not make any jump more suspenseful. Whether you make the jump or not is a matter of distance and alignment which was factored in by the last chance aspect of autograb. Now if they make that less obvious then it adds more suspense since it is less automatic.
To keep the newbie fanbase from TRL, it might be worth retaining autograb as an option - though I certainly won't be using it.
:wve:
BOOOOOOOOO!!! There should NEVER be ANYTHING auto in a TR game, ever again!!!!!!!
http://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/rant.gifhttp://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/mad2.gif http://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/argue.gif
Back on topic, I have to disagree with Elysia. In the old TR1 there were definately rocks you could climb on and definately rocks that you should have been able to climb on but couldn't. It generally became a matter of trying to see if you could or couldn't. Auto grab does not change that. If you want to program the ability to climb on everything (my preference) then you just have to make sure that you animate it correctly. Pressing extra buttons or autograb, it is the same thing from a programming perspective.
But at least you could try in TR1... the new engine as it stands won't even let you get near these tantalising, possibly climb-able structures, let alone have a pop at them!
Sure, if they can program every surface as autograbable, then fine... but how does the engine then decide which surface you're aiming for if they're all autograbable? The player used to decide...
BOOOOOOOOO!!! There should NEVER be ANYTHING auto in a TR game, ever again!!!!!!!
http://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/rant.gifhttp://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/mad2.gif http://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/argue.gif
Sorry...:eek:
Just thinking that TRL's success is thanks to alot of TR newbies.
CD/Eidos will need to satisfy them somehow...
:wve:
interstellardave
31-10-06, 17:10
But at least you could try in TR1... the new engine as it stands won't even let you get near these tantalising, possibly climb-able structures, let alone have a pop at them!
Sure, if they can program every surface as autograbable, then fine... but how does the engine then decide which surface you're aiming for if they're all autograbable? The player used to decide...
The AE press release states that it's a "enhanced Legend engine". So... perhaps some of these problems have been addressed?
No thanks. I don't want auto-grab in the AE and I don't want it in any TR in future either.
I like to feel that I am playing the game, not the computer for me... And, the more control over the character I have... the more it is ME inside the game world, and not some pixels moving across a screen.
But at least you could try in TR1... the new engine as it stands won't even let you get near these tantalising, possibly climb-able structures, let alone have a pop at them!
Sure, if they can program every surface as autograbable, then fine... but how does the engine then decide which surface you're aiming for if they're all autograbable? The player used to decide...
The player used to decide what they would try and grab. The program decided whether it was grabable. Autograb could work the same way.
I would love autograb to be removed... I don't know about others but in old tomb raiders I used to spend ages lining up my jumps to get it perfect, then when you jump and quickly hold down grab.. nearly missed a heart beat I swear, HOPING I would get there... hehe.. Now you can basically jump wherever and it will automatically grab for you.
I don't see this being removed, and for me, I don't *THINK* this is something that bothered me greatly, I can live with it, but would prefer it without
Tomb Raider Jay
31-10-06, 17:25
NO!!
I don't want auto-grab because to be honest it's probably one of the Worst things to ever appear in any TR game!
The jumps in TR are supposed to be dangerous and challenging, but with auto-grab Lara never misses a ledge - what's the point in that?! :confused:
There should be different animations for when Lara catches the ledges too, the PS2 ain't no weakling for graphics and animations, as proven by games like Shadow of the Collossus, Final Fantasy XII and KH2 - so Crystal D had better wise up to this and make Lara's animations as smooth and lifelike as possible!
The whole "press Triangle to save Lara" thing should go too, it's just one button press and it's not needed, if she's gonna die then she'll die, simple as that!
NO!!
I don't want auto-grab because to be honest it's probably one of the Worst things to ever appear in any TR game!
The jumps in TR are supposed to be dangerous and challenging, but with auto-grab Lara never misses a ledge - what's the point in that?! :confused:
The whole "press Triangle to save Lara" thing should go too, it's just one button press and it's not needed, if she's gonna die then she'll die, simple as that!
I agree - very Very bad addition to the series.
However the last point you made, I quite enjoyed that! *IF THE BUTTON PROMPT WASN'T THERE*. It added a fraction of the tension that the autograb took away, like a playable version of the move in TR6 when she scrambles to hold on. :tmb:
YES YES YES; Auto grab, auto jump, auto shoot, auto play ... i want everything be automated :jmp:
I agree - very Very bad addition to the series.
However the last point you made, I quite enjoyed that! *IF THE BUTTON PROMPT WASN'T THERE*. It added a fraction of the tension that the autograb took away, like a playable version of the move in TR6 when she scrambles to hold on. :tmb:Yes I wouldn't mind that save Lara thing if they removed the little triangle button prompts. :tmb:
Zelda master
31-10-06, 18:04
YES YES YES; Auto grab, auto jump, auto shoot, auto play ... i want everything be automated :jmp:
yeah that be cool:jmp:
YES YES YES; Auto grab, auto jump, auto shoot, auto play ... i want everything be automated :jmp:
They call that a MOVIE. :p Don't waste a game platform on a movie. You can see that on your TV or in a theater... ;)
Laras Backpack
31-10-06, 18:10
I've played other games with autograb and I didn't mind it. But that was mainly because those games had other factors that provided a high danger level in the game and involved a degree of skill and risk.
Legend didn't have this and as a result the autograb just made the game feel too safe and automated. It's like learning to ride a mountain bike then being made to revert back to a kiddies bike with training wheels.
The idea of removing the button prompt as mentioned above could work well to reintroduce the danger factor. :tmb:
I would love autograb to be removed... I don't know about others but in old tomb raiders I used to spend ages lining up my jumps to get it perfect, then when you jump and quickly hold down grab.. nearly missed a heart beat I swear, HOPING I would get there... hehe.. Now you can basically jump wherever and it will automatically grab for you.
I don't see this being removed, and for me, I don't *THINK* this is something that bothered me greatly, I can live with it, but would prefer it without
I really can not think on many more boring ways to spend my gaming time then precisely lining up jumps. It was one of the more annoying parts of the old TR control system (That and constantly running into walls).
I don't mind the autograb - it's not like pressing action in mid air was so hard is it?! And if it takes away those really really annoying times when you do fall and die and have to go way back due to the extreme lack of save crystals then I'm all for it to be honest.
As long as Lara turns and grabs the ledge when you try to run off a cliff or something, it's fine by me. But I still think that the option to turn it on/off is the best choice.
I quite like the autograb feature
How about this:
Options -> Controls -> Turn Autograb On/Off (On by default)
Option-> make a better, FULL game instead of fluff
Now there's an option I'd like to see on the menu... :mis:
Terminatorvs
31-10-06, 21:40
With or without autograb? Is that really so important whether you simply run off a cliff and Lara automatically grabs on to its edge or you press the action (or crouch) button for her to grab? Or making long jumps. To press or not to press the action button? It's not so important. That doesn't affect the gameplay that much.
Ada the Mental
31-10-06, 21:46
But the fact that most jumps are ridiculously easy does.You can jump with eyes closed in legend.
I think I prefer the AoD grab.Pressing down a button for too long can get a bit boring...
I think the fans need to be realistic. I fell a ton of times in the old Tomb Raiders... stupid falls, really, that made me think "geez, would I really fall if I was there?". NO!
Autograb is not only necessary, it is there to focus the player on WHAT IS REALLY FUN. And it will be the best adition to the already great tomb raider 1.
Fans of the old tomb raiders tend to get stuck in time. Games have evolved you know... fun is NOT on grabing an edge or falling off of it.
For what Im reading here, most of what you guys want is a "GRAB EDGE" game. I wonder why no one as ever done such game... it would be a tremendous sucess among you. :)
What if you were the one hanging onto that ledge? All YOU have to do is hold down a button. Poor Lara has to hold on for dear life with all ten fingers! ;)
I don't want auto-grab. Again, just like the swimming, it is not liberating.
Jumping and having to grab, adds to the excitement and game-play.
Infact one time in Legend, I was trying to reach someplace else and Lara couldn't get there because she kept grabbing onto a ledge which was in the way! :mad:
Ward Dragon
01-11-06, 01:43
With or without autograb? Is that really so important whether you simply run off a cliff and Lara automatically grabs on to its edge or you press the action (or crouch) button for her to grab? Or making long jumps. To press or not to press the action button? It's not so important. That doesn't affect the gameplay that much.
Sometimes I *want* to fall off a cliff, or not grab a ledge. It's very frustrating when Lara automatically grabs everything, or even worse when she moves of her own free will to grab what she thought I was intending to grab. They should just make an option to turn autograb on or off. Then that would satisfy both groups of people (those who like it and those who don't).
They should just make an option to turn autograb on or off. Then that would satisfy both groups of people (those who like it and those who don't).
That's a FANTASTIC idea :D
xMiSsCrOfTx
01-11-06, 02:36
In a word, no. I'd rather have to pay attention and be careful when I jump. Auto-grab is for lazy people! :p
Autograb is fine with me! Without autograb i'll be spending/wasting more time doing over the misgrabs (climbing back up etc), but i don't really mind about that when the game is good. With or without, fine. :)
I think the fans need to be realistic. I fell a ton of times in the old Tomb Raiders... stupid falls, really, that made me think "geez, would I really fall if I was there?". NO!
That's precisely what used to annoy me - most of the falls were silly moments when, if you were there, you wouldn't fall. I think having it as an on/off function is a very good compromise but I personally don't see the appeal in being able to walk off cliff edges myself.
Shark_Blade
01-11-06, 10:52
if you didn't fall. It'll be like breezing through.no fun. we want challenge.
Legend 4ever
01-11-06, 10:52
Yes, I want autograb.
I wonder why no one as ever done such game... it would be a tremendous sucess among you. :)
Well, to be fair there have been games like that in the past. I can't remember their names now, but I think it was something about Raiding Tombs..
I can see that it would add to the challenge but I think I'd personally prefer to be challenged by tricky puzzles and environments than by the grab button.
I think that if it frees up a button to allow me to do something else then maybe it ain't that bad but I don't think I'd be put off by the removal off the autograb though.
I don't see 'pressing the grab button' as a challenge. It's just another part of the controls.
I see it as this: it's about control- and how much of it we have over Lara.
If I want her to grab a ledge, then I'll Press the grab button.
Sometimes I don't want her to grab a ledge, sometimes I actually want her to fall to her grizzly (none-bloody-black-out) demise.
legend denies me that control.
In previous TR's if we wanted to try and grab something ungrabable, then we could still *try* and grab it. Even if that was an illusion of control, it was still present. In legend, we have invisible walls. We can't even try.
With the grab button, we have more control over Lara. Sometimes tension is created if we jump over a chasm and press grab *at the last milisecond* and she strugles to grab on. Makes you think 'phew'! By holding down a button, we're acting like Lara holding onto the ledge. If we let go of the button, she lets go of the ledge and falls. We have to keep her holding on.
In legend - she'll grab it for you. Place the controller on the floor - go off and make yourself a sandwich. She'll still be hanging on nice and safe when you come back!
All about control. I'd much rather manual controls over automated movement please :tmb: Then on to Interactive cutscenes, quite similar, but not for here ;)
The autograb was the best part of the Tomb Raider series.
Erm ... WHAT?!?!?!
So ... no matter how bad the game is, how bad the graphics are ... just as long as there is the auto grab the game is saved???
I see it as this: it's about control- and how much of it we have over Lara.
If I want her to grab a ledge, then I'll Press the grab button.
Sometimes I don't want her to grab a ledge, sometimes I actually want her to fall to her grizzly (none-bloody-black-out) demise.
legend denies me that control.
In previous TR's if we wanted to try and grab something ungrabable, then we could still *try* and grab it. Even if that was an illusion of control, it was still present. In legend, we have invisible walls. We can't even try.
With the grab button, we have more control over Lara. Sometimes tension is created if we jump over a chasm and press grab *at the last milisecond* and she strugles to grab on. Makes you think 'phew'! By holding down a button, we're acting like Lara holding onto the ledge. If we let go of the button, she lets go of the ledge and falls. We have to keep her holding on.
In legend - she'll grab it for you. Place the controller on the floor - go off and make yourself a sandwich. She'll still be hanging on nice and safe when you come back!
All about control. I'd much rather manual controls over automated movement please :tmb: Then on to Interactive cutscenes, quite similar, but not for here ;)
Yes, yes and yes. :tmb:
Crystal Dynamics took the full controlling away from the game. Now THEY decided if its good place to hang/grab. They also decided where is a good place to SAVE the game, and well, they were usually wrong with those places. I would never save just before a cut scene. I may want to place one save before it, to have an option to go back and see if i missed something that was in the cut scene, but if the game continues with tricky trap, its just stupid to put the savegame before the cutscene, cause everyone will get bored in it if the trap is hard to complete.
Thats why Its good to have the full control of the game. Im not paying for something that is alreadt done for me. I dont need pre animated cut scenes with stupid arrow (on PC) signs on the screen.
Catlantean
01-11-06, 13:28
I don't want autograb, full stop. It's one of those things that made Legend ridiculously easy.
I do have a feeling it'll be back though :(
WhosaidAODwasbad
01-11-06, 13:49
I think this is what should happen from now on TR Anniversary and TR8 + Auto grab and many of the features found in Legend should be a toggle option on and off. I liked the auto grab, but I think it should be that you have to press the action button to grab and then you don't have to hold it anymore.
+ Auto grab and many of the features found in Legend should be a toggle option on and off.
:tmb:
Then they could make both new and old fans happy.
(if that's possible:pi:)
Sorry if this has been said, but, the only reason there was auto-grab in Legend was because they didn't have enough buttons on the controler. Depending how many or the old, new legend controls and how many new controls their will be depends on wether auto grab will happen.
I think that it would be referable if their was an option to choose if you want auto grab on or off.
gerihalliwell
01-11-06, 14:45
Nope no autograb. I want this game to be really hard and long.
I can see that it would add to the challenge but I think I'd personally prefer to be challenged by tricky puzzles and environments than by the grab button.
I think that if it frees up a button to allow me to do something else then maybe it ain't that bad but I don't think I'd be put off by the removal off the autograb though.
I do not think anyone has really addressed the button issue. Which button did you press on a PS2 controller? Is there an allocation issue of buttons? I have to confess that I played previous TRs on the PC where you had a whole keyboard of buttons but are console controllers usable if you have to allocate a grab button? I do not want to have to hold down a button while moving Lara and sweeping the area with the camera.
I played on PS2 and PSP.
Their is only one button left on the PS2 and no buttons left on the PSP.
On PC you have a whole keyboard, so you can have more options.
I played on PS2 and PSP.
Their is only one button left on the PS2 and no buttons left on the PSP.
On PC you have a whole keyboard, so you can have more options.
I am trying to think. On a 360 controller most actions are thumb or index finger controlled. the left thumb is the movement so in a jump that thumb is taken. All of the right hand buttons are allocated so I just that leaves the L1 or L2 button. I cna not remember if they are also allocated. I believe the L1 is but I am uncertain if the L2 is.
Anyone remember
How about this:
Options -> Controls -> Turn Autograb On/Off (On by default)
:tmb: Everyone's happy with that I suppose.
MisterCroft
01-11-06, 16:40
NO, but I guess they will just use the new engine and stuff, so it will probabley be there.
I do not think anyone has really addressed the button issue. Which button did you press on a PS2 controller? Is there an allocation issue of buttons? I have to confess that I played previous TRs on the PC where you had a whole keyboard of buttons but are console controllers usable if you have to allocate a grab button? I do not want to have to hold down a button while moving Lara and sweeping the area with the camera.
Good point. I remember grab used to be X on PSX. I'm now XBox so I dunno anymore. I know all the buttons have functions in Legend but I am not sure without some thought whether you could rearrange lol.
Moon-Safari
01-11-06, 20:26
the fun was in mastering every action of Lara. your fingers were always moving. you always had something to do. controlling Lara never got boring. in order for her to hold on to a ledge you would have to hold on to the action button. the expertise required was the best part. if you wanted her jump up to a ledge and only hold on (not actually climb up) all you had to do was jump and keep holding on to the action button. if you wanted her to climb up on the ledge, you pressed up. if you wanted her to let go, you let go of the action button. You felt were very much into the game yourself. you felt like it was you holding her onto that ledge. It was the most advanced form of emersion I had ever witnessed. You could interact with your environment any way you wanted. I don't understand the appeal of legends controls. you can only trek the programmed path that the designers set forth. its easy to float around the levels seamlessly, but that's not what tomb raider is about. everything is automatic. playing legend, I feel like I'm watching Lara do things all on her own. I want to control back.
Ward Dragon
01-11-06, 21:36
the fun was in mastering every action of Lara. your fingers were always moving. you always had something to do. controlling Lara never got boring. in order for her to hold on to a ledge you would have to hold on to the action button. the expertise required was the best part. if you wanted her jump up to a ledge and only hold on (not actually climb up) all you had to do was jump and keep holding on to the action button. if you wanted her to climb up on the ledge, you pressed up. if you wanted her to let go, you let go of the action button. You felt were very much into the game yourself. you felt like it was you holding her onto that ledge. It was the most advanced form of emersion I had ever witnessed. You could interact with your environment any way you wanted. I don't understand the appeal of legends controls. you can only trek the programmed path that the designers set forth. its easy to float around the levels seamlessly, but that's not what tomb raider is about. everything is automatic. playing legend, I feel like I'm watching Lara do things all on her own. I want to control back.
Precisely :tmb:
I do not think anyone has really addressed the button issue. Which button did you press on a PS2 controller? Is there an allocation issue of buttons? I have to confess that I played previous TRs on the PC where you had a whole keyboard of buttons but are console controllers usable if you have to allocate a grab button? I do not want to have to hold down a button while moving Lara and sweeping the area with the camera.
I was actually thinking about this earlier. I always play on PC, but I've recently gotten the classics on PS1 just for the hell of it. In the classics, the "grab" button was simply the action button (X) which was the same button used to pull switches and fire guns. (I got very annoyed while playing TR1 because jump and action/fire were mapped to the same finger, but that could easily be resolved by moving action/fire to one of the trigger buttons.)
PS2 and Xbox 360 controllers have 14 buttons if I count correctly (D-pad=4, right pad=4, triggers=4, analogue sticks depressed=2). I don't know what the layout for Legend is on either controller. I was thinking that if the left stick moves Lara and the right stick manipulates the camera, that's a pretty obvious choice. Then the left stick could be depressed to trigger walk mode (Munch's Oddysee does this on the X-box, which is where I got the idea). The right stick could be depressed to switch back and forth between a classic-style follow camera and a Legend-style free-rotating camera. One of the triggers could be the all-purpose action button (grab if autograb is off, interact, fire weapons). Another trigger could be crawl/crouch/drop from a ledge if autograb is on, another trigger could be sprint, and the last trigger could be reverse-roll (I'm getting optimistic about including the old moves here...). (For Xbox controllers with black and white buttons, the functions could be rearranged if they aren't convenient). Then the right pad could have the buttons for draw weapons, activate light source, jump, and binoculars. Finally, up and down on the D-pad could cycle through weapons while left and right on the D-pad could cycle through targets while in combat mode. (I always pause to the menu to use medipacks, but if someone wanted a hotkey for it, one of the D-pad directions could be used). Anyhow, this is my idea for how to involve all of the old moves and still have enough room for them on the console controllers. (I don't think I've forgotten any moves/functions, but if I have, please let me know:))
Oh, in direct answer to your question, I think that it would be possible to hold grab and jump at the same time because with my layout, your thumbs would be manipulating the analogue sticks to move in midair while your index finger is holding the trigger down to grab :)
I was actually thinking about this earlier. I always play on PC, but I've recently gotten the classics on PS1 just for the hell of it. In the classics, the "grab" button was simply the action button (X) which was the same button used to pull switches and fire guns. (I got very annoyed while playing TR1 because jump and action/fire were mapped to the same finger, but that could easily be resolved by moving action/fire to one of the trigger buttons.)
PS2 and Xbox 360 controllers have 14 buttons if I count correctly (D-pad=4, right pad=4, triggers=4, analogue sticks depressed=2). I don't know what the layout for Legend is on either controller. I was thinking that if the left stick moves Lara and the right stick manipulates the camera, that's a pretty obvious choice. Then the left stick could be depressed to trigger walk mode (Munch's Oddysee does this on the X-box, which is where I got the idea). The right stick could be depressed to switch back and forth between a classic-style follow camera and a Legend-style free-rotating camera. One of the triggers could be the all-purpose action button (grab if autograb is off, interact, fire weapons). Another trigger could be crawl/crouch/drop from a ledge if autograb is on, another trigger could be sprint, and the last trigger could be reverse-roll (I'm getting optimistic about including the old moves here...). (For Xbox controllers with black and white buttons, the functions could be rearranged if they aren't convenient). Then the right pad could have the buttons for draw weapons, activate light source, jump, and binoculars. Finally, up and down on the D-pad could cycle through weapons while left and right on the D-pad could cycle through targets while in combat mode. (I always pause to the menu to use medipacks, but if someone wanted a hotkey for it, one of the D-pad directions could be used). Anyhow, this is my idea for how to involve all of the old moves and still have enough room for them on the console controllers. (I don't think I've forgotten any moves/functions, but if I have, please let me know:))
Oh, in direct answer to your question, I think that it would be possible to hold grab and jump at the same time because with my layout, your thumbs would be manipulating the analogue sticks to move in midair while your index finger is holding the trigger down to grab :)
How would you work in inventory control to select objects? Also I think throwing grenades is a different trigger than the fire trigger on the 360. The analog toggles should be click on/off. I hate having to depress an analog stick while trying to move it at the same time. With those caveats aside, You did a great job working it out
Ward Dragon
02-11-06, 00:22
How would you work in inventory control to select objects? Also I think throwing grenades is a different trigger than the fire trigger on the 360. The analog toggles should be click on/off. I hate having to depress an analog stick while trying to move it at the same time. With those caveats aside, You did a great job working it out
Thanks :) I would prefer to have the select button bring up the menu and then the D-pad cycles through the inventory items (I would also prefer the old ring system because I found it to be the most convenient). I did not assign anything to "Start" or "Select" because I figured those would be used to bring up the menu and inventory screens as they are in most games that I've seen on PlayStation. Grenades should count as a selectable weapon and be thrown with the action/fire button. There's no reason to have them separate except to make the controls unnecessarily complicated. I wouldn't mind if the analogue toggles were click on/off. That probably would be better, in fact (I haven't played too much with the Xbox so I'm not used to how difficult it is or isn't to press the stick and move it at the same time). Also, I think I forgot the grapple. That could be assigned to a D-pad direction, or if the reverse roll is not included (it would be pretty useless if the 2D controls are kept...) then that trigger could be for the grapple instead.
The auto-grab was pretty usefull, I want ti in TRA
They should change something else on TR1 than just the graphics
Legend 4ever
02-11-06, 08:48
yes, we do.
The auto-grab was pretty usefull, I want ti in TRA
They should change something else on TR1 than just the graphics
Like give her a lighting device. And it should be the PLS instead of those Annoying and past flares
yes, we do.
Do we?
I never remember saying I want auto-grab.
I hate auto grab, made the game too easy.
TR used to be all about timing you jumps and grabs just right, but those days are gone now. :(
Legend 4ever
02-11-06, 13:22
Oh, it does?:tea:
Well if you accidentally run too much forward?:jmp:
Ooops....you have to do everything again...such loos of time!:hea:
Oh, it does?:tea:
Well if you accidentally run too much forward?:jmp:
Ooops....you have to do everything again...such loos of time!:hea:
...And such improve of logic;)
You press forward + Lara falls down off the cliff = Lara dies
What did we learn? ...Don't press forward too much
Legend 4ever
02-11-06, 13:29
Excuse me...it could happen Accidentally
So? You get killed by mercenaries accidently in Legend. Does that mean they should include a feature that replenishes your health at the last second to save you the hassle of dying? :p
Legend 4ever
02-11-06, 13:34
That is absolutely different!
Not really. Both boil down to one thing: failure to adquately control Lara. Whether it's because you suck at the controls, you held your finger down on "forward" for too long or your dog sat on the control pad.
Believe me, it happens to everybody. Just this morning, I was trying to shoot a velociraptor, and ending up pocketing my guns mid-jump!
Trigger_happy
02-11-06, 16:53
no, id much prefer the ability to actually grab the leges for myself. It mnakes the jumps that much scarier- Legend would have been scarier if you had to do all the jumps by yourself.
Short answer no. Long answer hell nooooooooooo!
Not really. Both boil down to one thing: failure to adquately control Lara. Whether it's because you suck at the controls, you held your finger down on "forward" for too long or your dog sat on the control pad.
Believe me, it happens to everybody. Just this morning, I was trying to shoot a velociraptor, and ending up pocketing my guns mid-jump!
I just find it amusing that people find running off cliff edges a problem...
Oddly enough, if you go to a cliff edge and fail to stop in time, you fall off. It's called 'gravity', or something.
Oh, well you see elysia, some people just can't look where they are going or be troubled to slow down to look... :rolleyes: We must have safety nets for those players! :vlol:
So, Beachy Head is off limits for a holiday, then?
YES YES YES; Auto grab, auto jump, auto shoot, auto play ... i want everything be automated :jmp:
How about auto-complete/sell on ebay?
:wve:
So, Beachy Head is off limits for a holiday, then?
Nah, I'm sure you can find it for the holiday! ;)
Now that's a good one- autocomplete!!! :vlol: For the truly lazy player!!!! :mis:
Shark_Blade
02-11-06, 19:19
lol auto-complete:vlol:
that's for the players who want to "breeze" through the environment like Mr. Ian said, they even make you snore through.
I think autograb is catching a lot of flak, some of which isn't even really due to autograb.
The bulk of complaints can be broken down to:
(1) Autograb dumbs the game down too much - saves your skin from sloppy jumps.
(2) Autograb dumbs the game down by limiting where you can go
(3) Autograb inteferes with your exploring by forcing you to grab onto ledges you don't want to.
(4) Autograb hurts the overall experience because you want absolute control over Lara
Besides Moon-Safari, everyone else is just discussing a control scheme -- and holding down a button to grab a ledge doesn't make that much of a difference, honestly. I used to hold the action button right after I jumped -- pretty much ensuring my grab as long as I lined up my character right. All it meant was that I had to hold down one extra button until she hauled herself up.
(1) Autograb dumbs the game down too much - saves your skin from sloppy jumps.
As for people annoyed that autograb made it too easy because Lara magically grabbed the ledge even though the jump was kinda sloppy, then the issue is not with the existence of autograb BUT the margin of error allowed where autograb will kick in to save Lara's skin. It should allow for some error (since I think the old games were a bit too exacting at times) but generally should be more strict that how it was for TRL. If we want more TR games, we need to make it accessible to the casual gamer so that sales will go up. Perhaps a solution might be to link the level of dificulty to how large the margin of error would be (harder difficulty = smaller margin or error accepted for a successful jump)
(2) Autograb dumbs the game down by limiting where you can go
the fact that the programmer-decided path was more or less all you could do in TRL is a separate issue from autograb altogether. This is really an issue with the developer's level design, they didn't develop enough secondary avenues for us to explore.
Every secondary avenue makes the primary route a bit less clear, and the devs took the easy way out of this issue in TRL by minimising the secondary puzzles.
The manor gym in TRL is a good example of there being many grab-able/interactive surfaces to explore in an enclosed area. Now if you envision one of the silver shields in that room as your current objective in a room (perhaps an area with a switch), and all the other shields as secondary avenues to explore (secrets / dead ends / etc) you can see that autograb doesn't limit you per se.
(3) Autograb inteferes with your exploring by forcing you to grab onto ledges you weren't aiming for.I agree about this, but I don't think taking out autograb is the only solution.
(4) Autograb hurts the overall experience because you want absolute control over Lara
I dunno... besides the desire to view some fantastic death scenes, I don't see what couldn't be accomplished by grabbing a ledge and then dropping down.
the fun was in mastering every action of Lara. your fingers were always moving. you always had something to do. controlling Lara never got boring. in order for her to hold on to a ledge you would have to hold on to the action button. the expertise required was the best part. if you wanted her jump up to a ledge and only hold on (not actually climb up) all you had to do was jump and keep holding on to the action button. if you wanted her to climb up on the ledge, you pressed up. if you wanted her to let go, you let go of the action button. You felt were very much into the game yourself. you felt like it was you holding her onto that ledge. It was the most advanced form of emersion I had ever witnessed. probably the best argument against autograb that I've seen in this thread. Immersion because you feel involved in helping Lara hang on to something... that's something interesting that I didn't think of before.
Shark_Blade
06-11-06, 07:27
I agree. You elaborate it perfectly Moon Safari;)
The thing I didn't like with the Legend autograb is that it is "autoguide" as well; if you missed a jump the game would automatically turn you in the direction of the ledge to some degree. I wouldn't mind autograb at all if it was *just* autograb.
They should also make it consistent as a few times I was perfectly straight for a jump but Lara didn't grab anyway so I missed the jump, I believe this issue is related to the "autoguide" though, as the game has to make you "lock on" to a ledge or something before you can grab it.
WhosaidAODwasbad
06-11-06, 15:26
unless Tomb Raider gets harder and more complex jumping situations like prince of persia I say no. the only thing I want to keep is that you have to jump and you press the button to grab but once you do you can continue your action even when letting go the grab button so you don't have to hold it all the time. and like some say I think they should get rid of the jumping guide where you jump and then she lands in a different area where you where jumping to it should be like the classics you miss a jump you fall, you miss a grab fall, you miss time a jump you slip off the edge of your grab and fall. IT should be more hit and miss but not as much as the orgiinals and not so forgiving as Legend. Legend was too forgiving, and for me the originals where sometimes hard to make jumps now not so much because Ive played and beat the first two about 10 times. But for some gamers it is ultra difficult, I don't want to give in to their needs because they should adjust, but if Crystal just makes it as hard as the orginal and then tweaks it in sections where you would continually fall all the time that would be great. My question though Legend didn't have backflip so how are we going to do some puzzles I remeber in sancury of the Scion that you had to do a backflip after sliding down a wall the jump to a small bridge with a door over water. Without the backflip how are they going to make the game as dynamic as the original.
Doesn't really matter to me either way.
No. I find the manual grab more pleasent.
NONONONO...too easy for me ;) :(
this TR is the classic one ;)..so dont be like Legend!
sweety_kimmy
26-02-07, 01:52
No, no auto-grab. Looks like Lara is doing everything herself and not the player. Except for pressing Triangle ( for PS2 ) so she doesn't fall off.
Geez, talk about digging up an old thread, the last time someone replied in here it was 2006.
And auto-grab will probably be optional, try to keep a bit up-to-date.
:eek:..
yeah, we get to choose easy or tomb raider mode(no hints and manual grab)
NO AUTO-GRAB!
Easy as that :tmb:
Well, I dont wanna go back to "Tap backwards to give her a run-up, and then while she's in the air, press and hold the action button" But I would like to be able to turn the auto-grab feature off...
Old thread resurrected. We know it's optional now folks, and there's even a more recent thread about it. :wve:
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