View Full Version : Fights about TRAE?
There are currently hundreds of fights between those who like Legend as a Tomb Raider game and those who don't. Those fights are dirty, fought with arguments that are (paraphrased) "Go back to the kindergarten if you liked Legend" or "You're clearly a relict from the stone ages if you don't love Legend". We also see posts like "Feature X from Legend is great, and all the other features [listed in detail] are, too" as well as "Feature X from Legend completely sucked, and all the other features [listed in detail] do, too."
The important question is: Will these discussions calm down after Anniversary Edition is released? Will they stay the same? Will they increase in intensity?
My guess: They will increase a lot. With anything resembling a remake of TR1, Crystal Dynamics or Core (yes, even Core) can only do wrong. If the game isn't changed, people will complain. If the game is changed, you will always find at least one person complaining that he loved the game only because of feature X which is now gone, or at least that removing said feature X is a sacrilege that nobody should have ever even thought about.
I think the current disputes are mainly a sign that Tomb Raider is something different for everyone, and everyone values every part of Tomb Raider differently. AoD and Legend already showed what happened in the community if anything large was changed. The anniversary edition will have to make the same large changes to the one game that got most people here to Tomb Raider in the first place, and this will amplify any emotions, much more than quotes like "going back to the roots" (now honestly, who really ever believed that before the game was released?) ever could.
Laras Backpack
02-11-06, 20:25
Sorry double post. :(
:mad: What the hell is up with my internet today?!! :hea:
Laras Backpack
02-11-06, 20:29
The important question is: Will these discussions calm down after Anniversary Edition is released? Will they stay the same? Will they increase in intensity?
Depends what the AE is really like. If it is as short and as relatively easy as Legend then you betcha!! After AOD and Legend, some people, including myself, have become very sensative about the TR franchise.
quotes like "going back to the roots" (now honestly, who really ever believed that before the game was released?)
I did. :( But then again I thought they were refering to Lara's hair colour. :D
Oh they'll increase - it's not long since legend was released ( yes, still ) and then with another title released less than year later, praise and critisicm will amount from both games and crash in a big storm resolving in either
"I'm done with the series, it's really dead now", and "Let's just wait for TR8 then!"
I wonder which way the tide will go...
*starts collecting whips, chains, ropes, all kinds of tools to poke and prod with, blow torch, bullets, knives, guns, tar, feathers...* :mis:
Breaks out his trusty thesuarus in preparation.
Ada the Mental
02-11-06, 21:06
It seems to me that some people intend to split the forum in halfs...
I don't think it will stop. Those who hate Legend will continue expressing how awful the game is. And those who love it will say the same about the old games, or defend Legend. I got TR in 1996 so I think the old game system/control was just fine, but I think Legend has a better control system than the older games. ;)
Ward Dragon
03-11-06, 00:23
I don't think that the fighting will ever stop. If CD can manage to compromise between the two styles successfully with the Anniversary game, then I think that the fighting would die down a bit. I'm generalizing here, but from what I've seen, a lot of people who hate Legend don't like the looseness of the controls (it feels as if Lara is hovering instead of walking/running), the shortness of the game, the blatant linearity, the built-in walkthrough, and the easiness/lack of variety of the puzzles. Now, a lot of people who like Legend agree that it was short and easy, but they like the graphics and the feeling that the controls are faster than the original games' controls. So, I think that CD should:
- tighten the controls up a little bit (I thought, for example, that Soul Reaver 2's controls were very good because they were responsive and did not feel like Raziel was gliding everywhere. This was the same basic control system as Legend but tweaked a little differently on a previous incarnation of the Legend engine.)
- make the game significantly longer (at least twice as long as Legend, preferably 3 times longer)
- have more detailed environments that give the illusion of non-linearity and provide places to explore
- make all of the shiny surfaces and hints optional
- mix things up a bit in terms of the puzzles by having different types of puzzles and integrating them into the environment
- maintain the level of graphics (which they seem to have done based on the screenshot)
If CD can do all of that, then I think that most people who were dissatisfied with Legend would be happy, and most people who liked Legend would still like the Anniversary game. I don't think there's much chance of CD returning to the exact style of the previous games. If they don't at least try to involve some of the elements of the previous games, though, and just make another game exactly like Legend then I think that they will lose a lot of fans.
Cochrane, my answer is the exact reverse of yours. I think everyone is being too POSITIVE, with people using arguments like, "Settle down, child" or "If you don't like the game, then don't buy it."
I'll answer for myself.
I did not necessarily hate Legend per se, but I did get a bit iffed about its negative aspects. Like I said before, it's like a cake - it doesn't have a bad taste, but it's very thin, and leaves you wanting for more. I want to see the negative aspects change in the next game, and every time somebody praises a photo without refrain, without thought, and without construction, I fear that Crystal Dynamics will take this as a sign as, "We don't need to change anything, just keep going on the current course." When this clutters up the same thread I get worried about this heavily. Rather than endlessly praise something we should try to look at something from (I hate to say this) a bipartisan angle. What worries me more is that Legend and Legacy of Kain seemed to feed off of each other 100% in terms of movements (check out the thread in Legend), implying that the amount of effort they put into their projects might be less than we think.
I think we can all agree that Ward Dragon's points are valid and that everyone would be satisfied with them.
In the meantime, there are WAAY too many threads in this forum. When I leave for the day and come back, I don't want to browse through 20 threads at a time.
shaahinkaaveh
03-11-06, 05:57
I think AE can result in composure. What it must do is conjuring up the old memories well enough and add some unpredictable awes at the same time. This way people's attention will be drawn to another direction unitll TR8 is released. It shouldn't resemble Legend in any aspect. It must be its own self.
I think they'll find it difficult to satisfy both sides, as those sides are presented on here anyway...
From the way SOME (note: some not all) people speak on here they don't really like the old style games at all.
Likewise, we all know there are plenty of people on here who don't want TR to turn into Legend-TR.
They could try to accomodate both sides by developing something new and impressive, but I don't think they are capable of doing that. I'm sorry to those who love them but I don't think they are.
I think Crystal (sponsored by Eidos) will supply a B-grade product always. That's what Legend was to me anyway, a B-grade version of TR. (B minus at that too).
Maybe with a new project leader they could do things differently for the AE. I hope so but I'm not counting on it. TR7 was the BIG development project, not the AE... We'll see.
As for the fighting, I hate the name calling (on both sides) and the dubious arguments (people presenting stuff they know nothing about as fact, saying plain incorrect things...). I think it'll be at it's worst at TR8.
If at that stage (TR8) the game is still Legendified, I think a lot of people will lose interest (I think I will) and the board will be left for those who want to discuss how good the graphics are, how smooth the controls are, and which outfit do you think Lara should wear around Croft Manor...
It will never die down, you change something and there are always going to be people who cannot accept the change, companies make the games they think people want and will sell well, if you do not like the new games fine, you still have your old ones, but frankly l would rather they give up complaing after the third new style game and go start a "l hate Tomb Raider" forum somewhere else so the tomb raider fans can enjoy this one, because by then the whining, whinging and complaining will be wearing a bit thin
It will never die down, you change something and there are always going to be people who cannot accept the change, companies make the games they think people want and will sell well, if you do not like the new games fine, you still have your old ones, but frankly l would rather they give up complaing after the third new style game and go start a "l hate Tomb Raider" forum somewhere else so the tomb raider fans can enjoy this one, because by then the whining, whinging and complaining will be wearing a bit thinLMFAO. Or alternatively people like you could go and form a New TR forum elsewhere.... After all those old style fans might think your whinging, whining and complaining about what the old TR fans think is wearing a bit thin... :D
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I'm not speaking specifically to Aussie here, but lack of tolerance and respect for how other people feel on here is the main cause of all arguments, NOT the change in the games.
Like all wars too.
We don't all have to agree but as soon as we say "I don't want to hear" (Go Away) then of course we'll never get along and the arguments will carry on and on and on.
l have played all of the old games and the only one l had any serious complaint about was AOD, and that was because my copy was virtually unplayable because of all the bugs it had, true some of it l was not to fond of playing. If Core had made another game l would have let my money do the talking for me by not buying the next unless l was satisfied l would have enjoyed playing it. l am all for constructive criticism, but some just plain do not like the games and have nothing good to say about Legend, so why post on what is meant to be a fan forum, yes l am hoping they will eventually give up and post in the other sections, leaving the Legend, AE and future games sections for the fans of those games
I think when TR1 to TR5 were the only ones around to judge it may have been simpler, the differences between them were minor...a few extra moves, the balance between locations, puzzle type etc. We knew what Tomb Raider was, it had an identity, it was the only kid on the block like it.
Now the water is a bit muddier. We have AOD, Legend and the DVD adventures. The fighting may be over which style we like better because there is a large gap in gameplay between them all. Anything other than TR1 to TR5 is more like (insert entire 3D platformer genre here) than the original TR template.
Its a bit like having an argument between Football and Rugby, which is better. A couple of small changes and the game is completely different, and the disscusion is all but personal preference which really can't be challenged.
Terminatorvs
03-11-06, 12:26
To my mind changes are necessary. We can't have a grid system for another 5-year period like in "TR" 1-5. I think, that grid system had to leave in "TR3" or "TR4". I agree - "Legend" was short, easy, straight-forward. I'll also agree, that previous "TRs" were very exciting when I first played them, even though they were easy to beat too. The only "TR" I didn't like was the "AoD". I had many reasons for that.
P. S. About the outfits: I keep reading posts, in which people complain, that Lara is more like a Barbie doll with all those outfits. I don't understand, what is wrong with having outfits as unlockables. We had lots of outfit selections in "Quake 2", "Quake 3", all the "Unreal Tournaments" and we could also create models and outfits ourselves - some people drew pink outfits, yet no one called those games Barbie-like. I simply don't get it. Feels like Legend-haters just find a reason to complain, cling to it and squeel about it on every forum.
^ Outfits as unlockables aren't a bad thing, but IMO Legend focused too much on them instead of the actual gameplay experience.
T
P. S. About the outfits: I keep reading posts, in which people complain, that Lara is more like a Barbie doll with all those outfits.
I think the "Barbie Lara" is a cute derogatory catch phrase that the TRL bashes have latched onto because it is symbolic of what they see as the deficiencies in TRL. The problem is that Derogatory catch phrases are almost always impediments to intelligent discussion. They just make fun of other peoples opinions and make it seem as if one group is laughing at the other. The forum should be a place where you can respectfully disagree and discuss things but the extent of ridicule frequently gets out of hand.
I think the current disputes are mainly a sign that Tomb Raider is something different for everyone, and everyone values every part of Tomb Raider differently.
Very nicely put. Amen. ;) :tmb:
LaraLover1125
22-12-06, 22:35
My guess is that Anniversary will be recieved positively by all, so I see no problems or fights in the future!
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