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Neteru
07-11-06, 02:38
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42282000/jpg/_42282236_researchers203.jpg

UK scientists have applied for permission to create embryos by fusing human DNA with cow eggs.

Researchers from Newcastle University and Kings College, London, have asked the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority for a three-year licence. The hybrid human-bovine embryos would be used for stem cell research and would not be allowed to develop for more than a few days. But critics say it is unethical and potentially dangerous.

Liberal Democrat MP Dr Evan Harris - a member of the Commons Science and Technology Select Committee - said: "If human benefit can be derived by perfecting therapeutic cloning techniques or from research into subsequently-derived stem cells, then it would actually be immoral to prevent it just because of a 'yuck' factor." Stem cell research is one of the most promising areas of medical science. Stem cells are the body's master cells and five-day-old embryos are packed with them - each with the potential to turn into any tissue in the body. It is this ability which scientists want to harness to treat diseases such as Parkinson's Disease, strokes and Alzheimer's Disease. To do that, they need to have access to thousands of embryos for research.

Short supply

The problem is that human eggs for research are in short supply and to obtain them women have to undergo surgery. That is why scientists want to use cows' eggs as a substitute. They would insert human DNA into a cow's egg which has had its genetic material removed, and then create an embryo by the same technique that produced Dolly the Sheep. The resulting embryo would be 99.9% human; the only bovine element would be DNA outside the nucleus of the cell. It would, though, technically be a chimera - part-human, part-animal.

The aim would be to extract stem cells from the embryo when it is six days old, before destroying it. The quality and the viability of stem cells would then be checked to see if the technique had worked. The scientists also plan to examine the way the cells are reprogrammed after fusion to see if there are useful processes they could replicate in the laboratory. Lead researcher Dr Lyle Armstrong said: "If we can learn from the egg cell how to make embryonic stem cells without having to use an animal egg at all then some day we may be able to cure diseases such as Parkinson's disease, or better still some of the age-related diseases which are creating such a burden on society."

Dr Stephen Minger, from King's College London, said: "The current state of the technology is such that literally hundreds of human ooctyes (eggs) from young women will be required to generate a single human embryonic stem cell line. Therefore we consider it more appropriate to use non-human oocytes from livestock as a surrogate. We feel that the development of disease-specific human embryonic stem cell lines from individuals suffering from genetic forms of neurodegenerative disorders will stimulate both basic research and the development of new medicines to treat these horrific brain diseases."

Full story bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6121280.stm)

There is only one word I can use:

Debauched.

PARANOIA
07-11-06, 03:24
Brilliant! Just what we need! ANOTHER divisive political debate on this forum to tack onto the infamous "Saddam Hussein death penalty" thread. We shouldn't be using cows. We should be using live humans. Don't execute mass murderers, extract their genes and stem cells instead. Human embryos are just needless incentives to infuse ethical debate over whether life begins at conception, whether abortion at 1 week is still murder, yada, yada, yada.

And so, as this thread kicks off, I predict 150 pages of endless argument and debate by two sides of the isle, one by pro-lifers, one by pro-choicers, inevitably.

Neteru
07-11-06, 03:44
Well, it will be intersting to see if members pick up your suggestions, or simply express the same, simple disgust as I have.

JACOBryanBURNS
07-11-06, 04:54
Are we that bored? Do we really need to entertain ourselves with such nonsense?

Joseph
07-11-06, 05:02
Jacob. Do we need to be confronted with your belly in every of your posts?

Melonie Tomb Raider
07-11-06, 05:06
Jacob. Do we need to be confronted with your belly in every of your posts?

ROFL! :vlol:

Edit: To stay on topic, I just find this... disturbing. Even though the embryos will not be allowed to be fully developed, it's still grotesque if you ask me.

GodOfLight
07-11-06, 05:19
Jacob. Do we need to be confronted with your belly in every of your posts?

lol. that was quite bad coming from a mod.

* * *

once upon a time scientists such as davinci dug up corpses from graves and killed homeless people in order to study the human body and make notes on anatomy.

we also have the "evil" nazis to thank for making the human heart transplant possible with a pig's heart due to all their "insane experiments".

had it not been for all these so called "mad scientists" throughout history committing all these "heresies", we wouldnt be as far as we are today with science and our ability to heal people.

it always takes acts such as these to push us foreward as a civilization. it may be grotesque, but with out these grotesque acts you and i wouldnt be able to get as much help at a hospital as we can nowadays.

Joseph
07-11-06, 05:31
lol. that was quite bad coming from a mod.

* * *

Why? :confused: Mods are humans too, you know. :)

GodOfLight
07-11-06, 05:33
Why? :confused: Mods are humans too, you know. :)

oh i know :) but i think a mod becomes a mod because they have to have a certain responsibility when it comes to not insulting forum members... as hard as that may be :p (one of the reasons why i could never be a mod).

Melonie Tomb Raider
07-11-06, 05:48
Why? :confused: Mods are humans too, you know. :)

Oh rly? I thought all the mods here derrived from human/cow embryos.

lol jk. :p

lol it's the truth, mods are human too. :jmp:

Neteru
07-11-06, 07:21
Oh rly? I thought all the mods here derrived from human/cow embryos.How dare you?! :mad: I don't know how such vicious rumours get around.

Moooo

Melonie Tomb Raider
07-11-06, 07:59
HAHAHA!!!! :vlol: Oh goodness, I just smiled after reading the first part, but the, "Mooo" made me laugh out loud. LOL!!!! :vlol:

only Croft
07-11-06, 09:33
:vlol: XD


Any way I think that as long as the 'MOOOOO' genetic material is removed I think there is no more problems, aldough I woden't whant does cells because they are 0.01% 'MOOOOO'. But still there is another free way to get stams cells, from the 'thing' (cannot remeber word) that conects the baby to the mother, that is a huge surce of stams cells. So why are they so interested in going bovine when they only need a pregnant woman, wich, by the way, hppends very often.
Resumindo e concluindo: I think that abtaining stams cells this way may be good but there are still many other 100% human free sorces.

Celephais
07-11-06, 09:38
when they only need a pregnant woman, wich, by the way, hppends very often.


I never knew that. Thanks.

Mytly
07-11-06, 11:45
once upon a time scientists such as davinci dug up corpses from graves and killed homeless people in order to study the human body and make notes on anatomy.

we also have the "evil" nazis to thank for making the human heart transplant possible with a pig's heart due to all their "insane experiments".

had it not been for all these so called "mad scientists" throughout history committing all these "heresies", we wouldnt be as far as we are today with science and our ability to heal people.

it always takes acts such as these to push us foreward as a civilization. it may be grotesque, but with out these grotesque acts you and i wouldnt be able to get as much help at a hospital as we can nowadays.
Very insightful points, GoL. On the whole, I agree with you, but I must point out that creating these human-cow embryos is hardly on par with the Nazis' experiments, which were conducted on live human beings (who usually wound up dead at the end of the "experiments").
OTOH, this human-cow embryo research does not hurt anyone. No, these embryos are not human, and they are never going to become human even if they were allowed to grow - so this is nowhere as repulsive as the Nazi "research".
And the pro-life vs. pro-choice debate hardly applies here - the embryos are not viable, and I doubt if any of them could ever be brought to term, even if it was provided with a uterine host.

But still there is another free way to get stams cells, from the 'thing' (cannot remeber word) that conects the baby to the mother, that is a huge surce of stams cells.
The "thing" is called the umbilical cord.

Kamrusepas
07-11-06, 11:47
Mods are humans too, you know. :)
No one's gonna believe that, you know.

As for the topic... I really don't know what to say. It sounds like a Kurt Vonnegut -book more than something that would happen in our world.

Ampersand
07-11-06, 11:50
I imagine we'll end up with real life minotaurs pretty soon, lol.

viper456
07-11-06, 12:04
I know its all for a good cause but like the article even says its very unethical. Its like human farming in my eyes. I really dont like the idea *shakes head*

Natla'd
07-11-06, 12:08
I agree with Mytly. I seriously cannot see the problem with it here. Sure, a human-cow hybrid doesn't exactly conjure up a pretty image, but then, neither do ninety-nine percent of other medical procedures. I'm at a loss as to why I'm supposed to feel disgusted.

The "thing" is called the umbilical cord.

LOL, I was going to call it a placenta, but then, I haven't done biology for two years. ;)

BlackGrey
07-11-06, 12:43
I agree that this scientific experiment could possibly further our civilisation as GOL said but I think its messing with nature, no?

Natla'd
07-11-06, 12:47
I agree that this scientific experiment could possibly further our civilisation as GOL said but I think its messing with nature, no?

Using radio and chemotherapy to cure cancer is "messing with nature" as well, but nobody gets their panties into a bunch about that. :p

Andromeda66
07-11-06, 13:29
*sigh*

Mytly
07-11-06, 17:33
Using radio and chemotherapy to cure cancer is "messing with nature" as well, but nobody gets their panties into a bunch about that. :p

True. IMO, "messing with nature" is the most ridiculous argument ever. Even every time you pop an apirin for a headache or every time you brush your teeth, you are "messing with nature". That generally doesn't stop people from doing those things, however. :rolleyes:

Greenkey2
07-11-06, 19:43
True. IMO, "messing with nature" is the most ridiculous argument ever. Even every time you pop an apirin for a headache or every time you brush your teeth, you are "messing with nature". That generally doesn't stop people from doing those things, however. :rolleyes:

Indeed...

I presume that parrots, monkeys and other animals that use clay licks to cancel out the poisons in their diet are also messing with nature.....as are bower birds for clearing away leaves and other debris from around their courting arenas....etc etc

I find the science here - without any ethical considerations - very interesting. But science cannot under any circumstances be allowed to continue without also considering the ethical issues raised.

This idea makes me feel very uneasy about where scientists, politians and the general public will draw the line. I would be a serious hypocrite if I said I was totally against such research - I owe my existance to advanced medicine :p - but still the whole notion of using other animals as anything other than food disturbs me greatly.

After all, other animals don't exactly give each other transplants in the wild do they? :pi:

only Croft
07-11-06, 19:44
The "thing" is called the umbilical cord

Thanks I coden't remeber. :tmb:

PARANOIA
07-11-06, 20:24
After all, other animals don't exactly give each other transplants in the wild do they?

That's what separates humans FROM animals.

Lenochka
07-11-06, 20:27
Jacob. Do we need to be confronted with your belly in every of your posts?

Ohhhh wasn't expecting that from a mod xD


I think doing this kinda crap is wrong... whats the purpose? Some mutated ( disproportion ) living creature that they created only to watch and study just to say they did something... I know they mean well but for some reason i don't think its right. Putting 2 things together... Living things are not Lego's.

Pipolinne
07-11-06, 20:47
The more I think about it,the more I believe this is no science,but other thing!

Mixing cows and humans?That's disgusting!

PARANOIA
07-11-06, 21:20
Did you read the article or just the topic title?

JACOBryanBURNS
07-11-06, 22:33
Jacob. Do we need to be confronted with your belly in every of your posts?

You have never been confronted with such things. Joseph, that's my friend Kacey.

2kool4u
07-11-06, 22:45
I have to back some of these researches up. If im about to die i want everything to be done to save me.

tampi
07-11-06, 22:54
This I don't want nor to read it, seems to me a “filthiness, squalidness, pollution; wickedness, evilness ”

Only the title seems to me a madness, don't they have anything better than to do?
It is not strange to me that the cows become crazy, we already are it….

PARANOIA
07-11-06, 23:53
Why don't you read it? Will you dabble in ignorance forever just because an animal is used for research? That doesn't sound like a very sound idea. To progress in research and technology you need to do the unthinkable.

One could easily claim that we should stop making glue because it's an improper use of horse and rabbit matter.

Mytly
08-11-06, 06:00
I think doing this kinda crap is wrong... whats the purpose? Some mutated ( disproportion ) living creature that they created only to watch and study just to say they did something... I know they mean well but for some reason i don't think its right.

*Sigh* Read the article - the purpose is clearly stated:

Stem cells are the body's master cells and five-day-old embryos are packed with them - each with the potential to turn into any tissue in the body. It is this ability which scientists want to harness to treat diseases such as Parkinson's Disease, strokes and Alzheimer's Disease.


I would say that's a very good reason, and a very commendable purpose.

This idea makes me feel very uneasy about where scientists, politians and the general public will draw the line. I would be a serious hypocrite if I said I was totally against such research - I owe my existance to advanced medicine :p - but still the whole notion of using other animals as anything other than food disturbs me greatly.

I agree that sometimes a line needs to be drawn as to how far scientific research should go - but IMO that should be when the research has possibly harmful consequences for human beings (not to mention other living beings). This research hardly qualifies - it could yield great benefits for humans, and does not harm any living creatures. No, I do not consider six-day old non-viable embryos to be "living creatures".

The cows in question are not being harmed in any way either - only some of the their eggs are removed. That's essentially no different from women donating eggs. Of course, the cows are not asked for their consent, but I doubt if they are ever asked for their consent to be killed and eaten either.

tampi
08-11-06, 12:07
Why don't you read it? Will you dabble in ignorance forever just because an animal is used for research? That doesn't sound like a very sound idea. To progress in research and technology you need to do the unthinkable.

One could easily claim that we should stop making glue because it's an improper use of horse and rabbit matter.
Josef Mengele also made his experiments under the excuse of “scientific research”
We lived in a world in which thousands of children die daily, and these “investigators” are spent thousands of million dollars in investigating “possible” solutions for four rich ones that need them.
The money of a missile (or this one investigation) could be spent in vaccinating to half humanity against the malaria, for example ;)