View Full Version : More Predictions: The Length of The Game
TombRaiderLover
09-11-06, 07:18
Think about it.
Legend was notoriously short, so do you think Crystal will shorten alot of the original game's material for the Anniversary game?
In order to do that, they'll have to cut parts from the original, and I doubt that they're gonna mess with TR1.
I think they will shorten it and hack out a lot of it. But I hope they don't.
Lets face, either they believe what they say when they said "gamers want short, sharp thrills..." or they don't.
If they do believe it - why give us anything longer and more satisfying than Legend?
And if they don't believe it, why make Legend the way it was?
(hence my doubts)
On the other hand, if I was them, I would use this remake as an opportunity to suss out the market for a slightly more old TR-ish style of play. Nobody is going to blame them for making a "remake" that is heavily old-style. (Or preferably old-style evolved... bigger, more complicated, more variety than ever before)
I hope they take a chance.
realy my hope in the TRA to get along time full of levels full of pazzels , its not acceptable to play the whole tombraider in legend within 8 hours , i dont if others can agree me....i felt TR1 & TR2 was very long & nice rather than the next ones.........
only Croft
09-11-06, 10:09
If CD cuts anything from the original, they are going to be the one with cuts on them :mad: :D :tea: :cln: :jmp: :ton:
tomb_raider_roks
09-11-06, 10:16
lol good 1:D any way if u want to see the 1st screen shot of tomb raider anniversary then go to www.tombnews.com scroll down and u can see lara its not a very good photo but it is the first also the graphics look great cant wait for tomb raider anniversary edition :tea: :D ;) :p :) :ton: :jmp:
Shark_Blade
09-11-06, 10:29
I predict TRA is shorter than legend by 1/4.
:yik:
I think they're going to cut it down for two reasons:
- They mentioned they're going to include TR1's "highlights" (which means other parts of the game won't make it), but they didn't say a word about new content.
- Legend's engine needs a horrible amount of disk space. I don't think TR1 with Legend graphics (even if it's just the current gen version) would fit on a single DVD.
I'm not paying full price for HALF size TR1.
I think they're going to cut it down for two reasons:
- They mentioned they're going to include TR1's "highlights" (which means other parts of the game won't make it), but they didn't say a word about new content.
- Legend's engine needs a horrible amount of disk space. I don't think TR1 with Legend graphics (even if it's just the current gen version) would fit on a single DVD.
That's nonsense, with BluRay disks up to 200 "GB" now that isn't an excuse. PSP got the whole game + extra content so surely it's possible, they just think we like "Short thrill rides" when in reality we don't.
Anything less than the WHOLE game in the AE would be a disgrace to TR1 and punishable by death! http://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/overlord.gif
However, the cocky group at CD will probably disappoint us and cut out all the best parts of TR1 and make them cutscenes we don't even get to play! :hea:
*gets ropes, chains and various torture devices ready* http://www.storagebin.us/smilies/smilies/evil1.gif
I'm sure they read the negative reviews about Legend being too short, + they know how much TR1 is loved. Surely they're not gonna mess with it to make it short.
The shorter the game the less replay value it has.
WhosaidAODwasbad
09-11-06, 14:22
You have to think that TR anniversary will be a rehash of the original with the main story elements and biggest moments. pretty much every level in TR 1 has a big moment that adds to the story, I see them reinventing the original levels. So maybe cut out some area's that weren't useful and then adding others or even changing things up. So that certain things are in different areas than before. With that said I really think CD wants TR 1 to be justified by what they do so I don't see them shortening anything unless its what they make brand new. I've even heard that they are going to have some enviromental Physics puzzles like Legend, hopefully a little harder ones. and Hopefully they have some riddles like the legend Mansion i thought those were the best puzzles in the whole game!
Lleonard Pler
09-11-06, 14:38
It will be shorter because it will be easier.
And they may re-design the levels to make them more straightforward. I don't think that TR:Legend developers can understand or manipulate the complexity of Midas' Palace, The Cistern, etc.
Think about it.
Legend was notoriously short, so do you think Crystal will shorten alot of the original game's material for the Anniversary game?
I think they know the reaction peolple would have if they cut something from sucht a great game. TR1 it's one of the best game ever (at least imo).
it would be a crime.
And if they don't believe it, why make Legend the way it was?
They were pushed by Eidos to release it? If the game wasn't done by a release date probably set by Eidos, not Crystal Dynamics, they wouldn't get to release the game at all.
Yes, perhaps Crystal were being rushed (in the same way Core were), and had to make a short game to meet the deadline. Then Ian Livingstone made up that nonsense about "short sharp thrill rides" to cover their arses.
I just love to see how Crystal Developers are bashed here. "They are all incompetent and cannot understand classic TRs". Disk space an issue? "No, it fits all on a Blue-Ray disc". Which PC, PSP and PS2 certainly do have...
Disc space is not the only issue, and I think the guys at Crystal (or Core, with their stupid remake that makes everyone diss Crystal even though nobody knows how good either is) would be very happy if it was. More detailed levels also take time, developers and ultimately money to make, and none of these ressources increases as much as the requirements for graphics do in the same time.
Now for how long TRA will get: No idea. On the one hand, they don't want to disappoint anyone by making it significantly longer. On the other hand, they still have the issues with disc space, development time and money. They will not be able to take any significant work from TR1 directly. That means they will struggle if they want it to be as long as TR1. My guess would be that it is shorter than TR1, but still signifcantly longer than Legend.
That's nonsense, with BluRay disks up to 200 "GB" now that isn't an excuse. PSP got the whole game + extra content so surely it's possible, they just think we like "Short thrill rides" when in reality we don't.
Excuse me? What good is an ultra-long, detailed TR remake on a disk no current-gen console can read?
I certainly don't hope TRA will be another short game and I won't accept disk space as an excuse because other developers have managed to use less space for much longer games. I just pointed out that I don't see TRA being a 30+ hour game and still be shipped on a single DVD, not with Legend's flawed engine.
Anyway, I think Sony only got 20GB BluRay disks to work properly yet, which means Eidos/Crystal could barely get a normal-length game on one of those. ;)
Gosh there sure are pessimists here. Before you say "Crystal will ruin it cause they don't understand TR", wait until the game is released...
The reason people are pessimistic about and "dissing" Crystal "saviours of TR" Dynamics is because we've seen their attempt at making a TR game we didn't like it.
Granted they MAY do things differently this time, with the AE, we'll have to wait and see. But c'mon don't be surprised if some people are doubtful that they have it in them to do things differently.
Everyone makes predictions based on the information they have. In this case all we have as fact is what has gone before... Legend.
It's NOT about Core's remake. It is their own work that they brought to the table (Legend) that does them in...
[For me anyway]
I just love to see how Crystal Developers are bashed here. "They are all incompetent and cannot understand classic TRs". Disk space an issue? "No, it fits all on a Blue-Ray disc". Which PC, PSP and PS2 certainly do have...
Disc space is not the only issue, and I think the guys at Crystal (or Core, with their stupid remake that makes everyone diss Crystal even though nobody knows how good either is) would be very happy if it was. More detailed levels also take time, developers and ultimately money to make, and none of these ressources increases as much as the requirements for graphics do in the same time.
Now for how long TRA will get: No idea. On the one hand, they don't want to disappoint anyone by making it significantly longer. On the other hand, they still have the issues with disc space, development time and money. They will not be able to take any significant work from TR1 directly. That means they will struggle if they want it to be as long as TR1. My guess would be that it is shorter than TR1, but still signifcantly longer than Legend.
If they can't do it right, don't bother. I don't want to spend full price for a game half the size, a quarter the length, because they can't fit any more on a disk or won't spend the time to make enough to actually give us a full game. The graphics are way over blown on how long they take, I'm an artist and it wouldn't take me forever to make the textures for legend. The wireframes take a bit more, but a good wireframe artist can whip thru pretty fast too. I find it silly that they had as much time to make legend as core had to make AoD and they gave us so much less. For what, slightly prettier graphics and slightly more complex wireframes? That justifies giving us half of the levels we're used to getting in a TR game??? I find that laughable. And CD started with an engine they used in 3 other games! Core made a whole new engine, controls as well as textures and wireframes. I blow my nose at CD! :ton:
The reason people are pessimistic about and "dissing" Crystal "saviours of TR" Dynamics is because we've seen their attempt at making a TR game we didn't like it.
Granted they MAY do things differently this time, with the AE, we'll have to wait and see. But c'mon don't be surprised if some people are doubtful that they have it in them to do things differently.
Everyone makes predictions based on the information they have. In this case all we have as fact is what has gone before... Legend.
It's NOT about Core's remake. It is their own work that they brought to the table (Legend) that does them in...
[For me anyway]
EXACTLY! Well put blackmoor! :tmb:
The reason people are pessimistic about and "dissing" Crystal "saviours of TR" Dynamics is because we've seen their attempt at making a TR game we didn't like it.
Granted they MAY do things differently this time, with the AE, we'll have to wait and see. But c'mon don't be surprised if some people are doubtful that they have it in them to do things differently.
Oh I'm not surprised. I'm just saying that since it's a remake, people should be a bit positive about it's length.
So far I think that Crystal are doing a fine job.
xcrushterx
09-11-06, 18:59
I've even heard that they are going to have some enviromental Physics puzzles like Legend
OMG PHYSICS puzzles they have more or less admitted that all the puzzles will be pressure plate orriented.
think of other definitions of this phrase that does not involve pressure plates:confused: :confused: :( :( :(
The reason why I'm optimistic about it's length is because it's not next-gen.
OMG PHYSICS puzzles they have more or less admitted that all the puzzles will be pressure plate orriented.
think of other definitions of this phrase that does not involve pressure plates:confused: :confused: :( :( :(
Pressure plates are not physics. In fact, even TR4 had something that you could call pressure plates, far cooler than Legend ever had, and the game had no physics at all.
Physics-based puzzles are those like the see-saw in Bolivia, the hanging platform you have to push around in Kazakhstan, the floating "crate" you have to maneuver in England and similar. While I don't like all of these puzzles, the possibilities for new, cool puzzles thanks to physics are great.
Blackmoor: The way you say it, it's all fair. However, there are some people here who say things like "I don't think that TR:Legend developers can understand or manipulate the complexity of Midas' Palace, The Cistern, etc.". That is not a fair concern, that is a direct insult to level designers at Crystal Dynamics. Also, many people here are thinking they see trends even though CD only made one game.
thevman: Wireframe is a filling mode. Is it possible that you mean models or meshes?
If we say that we keep the level meshes of TR1 and only replace the textures by ones that are 256x256 instead of 64x64 for each square, we'd first require 16 times the texture memory. If we assume that textures will be 32 Bit RGBA instead of 8 bit palette, we are at 64 times the texture memory already. That means going from 750 KB to 48 MB textures per level (if we assume 12 used texture pages for a level), without having changed anything about the level geometry at all. These bits all need to be generated, and upsampling the old textures is certainly not going to do the job. No, it's not going to take forever, but I'm certain it will have a measurable impact.
Then, of course, if we go further and change the meshes and create new textures in the process, things are likely to take even more time and space. I'd like to know how you come to your conclusion that time and money are not really a factor. That they should rather not do the game at all than make it wrong because they lack the time and/or money is something that I agree with, though.
Lots of levels also take lots of time to test, as they will have to make sure that all levels will run on a lot of computer systems, and that there are no obvious bugs. This will have to be done like it was a new game, because technically, it is.
As for Legend, you are forgetting that you are actually getting two games that only differ by the graphics. OK, actually it's more like 1.2 games or something, but the addition of next-gen still had a lot of impact. You can blame the developers for adding next-gen at all, but it still had that impact.
Yes, the developers should cool it and just release the game for 3 platforms instead of 9 and 2 different graphics, standard and next gen. That is what ate up all their time. Make a good game, then worry about making it for the different platforms.
I would really, really, really like a game that was equal to or greater the length of the game in TR1.
My gut feeling is that at the best, and I do mean, at it's very best, we'll get a gameplay which is an hour longer than TRL IF they were efficient with whatever development time they have, by:
- not having zillions of cinematics and especially interactive cut-scenes and other bells and whistles
- having less platforms MAY mean more time to devote (not sure about this)
- they have the legend engine already, so no time wasted on that
- they really do monitor the fan forums and take on and steer the direction/development according to fan input, saving design time by listening to our suggestions (might balance out in the end though, since some of the things we ask for must take them extra time)
- they tone down a notch the attention to graphic detail (if this takes a long time to design): even if they produce a look which is 30% less graphic quality than TRL, it's still an improvement on TR1 times technology, and they could spend more time on other things e.g. inventing puzzles and opening up multiple paths / free roaming terrains etc... Even Core TRAE Lara was quite 'pointy', and that was ok for us
- they don't have to sit around a conference table and have zillions of meetings to come up with locations, plots etc... they already have the concepts from TR1 and after.
However, I think the really BIG question is: Genuinely, media and PR B/S aside, how important are the hardcore TR fans to EIDOS? Is TRA a 'frivolity' for them, e.g. if it doesn't work out, no big harm done, their risk was reduced, and they can still have the non-hardcore/new fans to entertain with TR8, presumably across multiple platforms.
I think it'll be longer than the original. It will have the same 15 levels, only changed quite a bit, whilst keeping true to the originals. I'm predicting almost all the levels to be longer than the original. This is because its very hard to mess up a remake. They already have the original levels and all they have to do is add to them. TR1 levels weren't very long anyway.
xcrushterx
09-11-06, 20:40
The reason why I'm optimistic about it's length is because it's not next-gen.
Pressure plates are not physics. In fact, even TR4 had something that you could call pressure plates, far cooler than Legend ever had, and the game had no physics at all.
Physics-based puzzles are those like the see-saw in Bolivia, the hanging platform you have to push around in Kazakhstan, the floating "crate" you have to maneuver in England and similar. While I don't like all of these puzzles, the possibilities for new, cool puzzles thanks to physics are great.
i need proof
If it's a remake, they should not cut parts from the original game. If they do, I'll get ****ed off. :mad:
xcrushterx
09-11-06, 20:44
wont we all
Depends what parts were cut. I expect minor parts to be cut and replaced with new stuff. I mean if they didn't we'd all get through the game in two days. All the major parts and the puzzle parts will stay and be updated but little minor parts of the game will probably change.
wont we all
Well, someone from Crystal/Eidos said most gamers like short games. I don't... :confused:
xcrushterx
09-11-06, 20:48
i loved legend but i hate short games
There probly going to shorten it because i heard that thay r goin to put TR 1 & 2 In one big game!:confused: well yuo gatta beat the first 1 2 go on to the other 1:jmp: thats what i heard:pi:
I expect minor parts to be cut and replaced with new stuff. All the major parts and the puzzle parts will stay and be updated but little minor parts of the game will probably change.
Agreed. Minor parts should be replaced with new and innovative stuff, while all major parts should stay, and if necessary, be updated.
:wve:
There probly going to shorten it because i heard that thay r goin to put TR 1 & 2 In one big game!:confused: well yuo gatta beat the first 1 2 go on to the other 1:jmp: thats what i heard:pi:
That was one of the rumors before we knew what TRA actually was. Its been confirmed now that its just a remake of TR1.
If TRA will be short I will not spent any my money on TR, and I think not will play other TR games anymore. :mad:
A simple solution to disk space: split the game into two discs, three discs or even four discs if necessary. This kind of method was quite common for PS1 games when this kind of thing was a more common issue. I don't think any levels should be cut, the thing that made TR1 so good was that every level counted and there wasn't a moment where I thought, "this is getting repetitive" or "this level doesn't seem necessary". There isn't really an excuse for cutting anything.
Kamrusepas
10-11-06, 00:17
A simple solution to disk space: split the game into two discs, three discs or even four discs if necessary. This kind of method was quite common for PS1 games when this kind of thing was a more common issue.
FFVIII is only 5 discs :vlol:
gerihalliwell
10-11-06, 01:22
Yes, I hope it's a very long long game lol. The length of AOD would be good.
Yes, I hope it's a very long long game lol. The length of AOD would be good.
Agree with you, about 30 levels.
WhosaidAODwasbad
10-11-06, 17:23
It should be a little longer than the original, i also think they can put up to 30 levels in the game which would be nice. I think it should a long game, but not final fantasy size. And it should have a lot of extras and stuff like that to replay the game in different modes styles. For example, we could do those tournment play, where at the beginning of the game you can say pistols only and no medipacks!
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