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wantafanta
17-12-06, 00:54
Never forget the true meaning of Christmas - Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Man. Say a prayer for those less fortunate in the Holy Land who live without running water, electricity and all that we take for granted. Let us hope the madness comes to an end in 2007.


http://www.network54.com/Realm/alleyosalley/greetings1.jpg

http://www.network54.com/Realm/alleyosalley/sobcar.jpg

Ikas90
17-12-06, 00:57
The true meaning of Christmas is the birth of Christ, but, this madness will not be coming to an end... The world will keep on constantly destroying itself. Humans were intended to destroy themselves.

GodOfLight
17-12-06, 01:02
What an uneducated thread :)

wantafanta
17-12-06, 01:05
The true meaning of Christmas is the birth of Christ, but, this madness will not be coming to an end... The world will keep on constantly destroying itself. Humans were intended to destroy themselves.

The meaning of Christmas is not the birth of Christ. It is a celebration of his life and what he stood for. For without his message, his birth would be meaningless. And who intended for humans to destroy themselves? To have a pessimistic outlook on the human nature does not excuse oneself from trying to make the world a better place for us and those who follow.

wantafanta
17-12-06, 01:09
What an uneducated thread :)

Yes, you are correct. I could've posted a thread about how I was crossing my fingers for the latest zombie blasting PC game this Christmas, if that is how you define education.

Of course, a thread not being a sentient, living entity, cannot itself be educated any more than a tea kettle can be educated. In that sense the remark speaks little for the education of its author.

jackali
17-12-06, 01:12
The true meaning of Christmas is not in fact the birth of Christ, and the very circumstances of his birth were stolen. It was the birth of Mithras. His birth was witnessed coincidently by three shepherds. The religion of Mithraism was followed many hundreds of years before Christ. This was a Pagan celebration, the birth of Christ was only moved to the 25th of December so that the people could move easily be forced into adopting Christianity, as they were still celebrating a miraculous birth on the 25th.

Even before that it was generally put as a day to worship the sun. It really has little or nothing to do with Christ.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 01:13
Just face it... the world is going to come to an end some time this century, and we will be competely forgotten about. It was God who created us and we were meant to destroy ourselves.

jackali
17-12-06, 01:18
Just face it... the world is going to come to an end some time this century, and we will be competely forgotten about. It was God who created us and we were meant to destroy ourselves.

That is of course if there is a God, if not then there was no meaning to any of this anyway so our destruction is as pointless as our creation.

wantafanta
17-12-06, 01:38
If these pictures don't elicit some kind of sorrow or concern from viewers, then there is something drastically wrong with our society. I only meant to get people to think for a moment on how lucky they are and to keep in perspective what is truly important. Not to discuss the existence of a divine creator and the ultimate fate of humankind.

Forwen
17-12-06, 01:38
Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Man.
Peace and Good Will? You won't find a single Man on the Earth who really needs it.

GodOfLight
17-12-06, 01:39
Yes, you are correct. I could've posted a thread about how I was crossing my fingers for the latest zombie blasting PC game this Christmas, if that is how you define education.

Of course, a thread not being a sentient, living entity, cannot itself be educated any more than a tea kettle can be educated. In that sense the remark speaks little for the education of its author.

actually, i think your frist post was quite nice and inspirational :wve: i wasnt referring to your post, i was making a point about something else. and i also hate blasting PC zombie games as you put it. So my dear, the joke is on you :wve:

the point i was trying to make was inrefernce to ikas90, and how christmas is not only about the birth of christ, but actually:

The true meaning of Christmas is not in fact the birth of Christ, and the very circumstances of his birth were stolen. It was the birth of Mithras. His birth was witnessed coincidently by three shepherds. The religion of Mithraism was followed many hundreds of years before Christ. This was a Pagan celebration, the birth of Christ was only moved to the 25th of December so that the people could move easily be forced into adopting Christianity, as they were still celebrating a miraculous birth on the 25th.

Even before that it was generally put as a day to worship the sun. It really has little or nothing to do with Christ.

now that's what i call educational ;)

Cochrane
17-12-06, 07:53
Just face it... the world is going to come to an end some time this century, and we will be competely forgotten about. It was God who created us and we were meant to destroy ourselves.

Humanity managed not to blow itself up during the cold war, it managed to survive even though some scientists believed that the food supply was running out in the 19th century, it managed not to run out of oil in the 1980s. Yes, humanity faces some serious problems now, and it will probably face others in the future, but I have serious doubts that we will let any of these destroy ourselves. As for God and his intentions, well, he's only a fictional character, why should I care about him?

the hooliganz
17-12-06, 15:32
As for God and his intentions, well, he's only a fictional character, why should I care about him?

God is not a fictional character. He is real. The world will end sometime

Ampersand
17-12-06, 15:54
Peace and Good Will? You won't find a single Man on the Earth who really needs it.

I think a bit of peace and good will goes a long way, and there are a lot of people who need it. I'm idealistic like that. There are enough cruel and selfish people on this planet as it is.

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 16:33
The true meaning of Christmas is not in fact the birth of Christ, and the very circumstances of his birth were stolen. It was the birth of Mithras. His birth was witnessed coincidently by three shepherds. The religion of Mithraism was followed many hundreds of years before Christ. This was a Pagan celebration, the birth of Christ was only moved to the 25th of December so that the people could move easily be forced into adopting Christianity, as they were still celebrating a miraculous birth on the 25th.

Even before that it was generally put as a day to worship the sun. It really has little or nothing to do with Christ.

This is true. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas day at all. To those of you who say that he was — if this was QI the sirens would be going. :D

Anyway, in the words of Kyle Broflovski: "I think we're all forgetting the true meaning of Christmas... presents."

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 16:45
The true meaning of Christmas is the birth of Christ, but, this madness will not be coming to an end... The world will keep on constantly destroying itself. Humans were intended to destroy themselves.

Exactly. :)

The meaning of Christmas is not the birth of Christ. It is a celebration of his life and what he stood for. For without his message, his birth would be meaningless. And who intended for humans to destroy themselves? To have a pessimistic outlook on the human nature does not excuse oneself from trying to make the world a better place for us and those who follow.

True. :)

The true meaning of Christmas is not in fact the birth of Christ, and the very circumstances of his birth were stolen. It was the birth of Mithras. His birth was witnessed coincidently by three shepherds. The religion of Mithraism was followed many hundreds of years before Christ. This was a Pagan celebration, the birth of Christ was only moved to the 25th of December so that the people could move easily be forced into adopting Christianity, as they were still celebrating a miraculous birth on the 25th.

Even before that it was generally put as a day to worship the sun. It really has little or nothing to do with Christ.

Not sure were people are getting this info from.....

Christianity in general and the Jewish religions come from the same book and share a lot of the same beliefs with the main difference being the Jews believe that Christ was a Profit and they are still waiting for the Saviour to come. The Jewish Religeon is well over 10,000 years old.

As for God and his intentions, well, he's only a fictional character, why should I care about him?

I truely hope you don't really believe that.

This is true. Jesus wasn't born on Christmas day at all. To those of you who say that he was if this was QI the sirens would be going. :D

Anyway, in the words of Kyle Broflovski: "I think we're all forgetting the true meaning of Christmas... presents."

The true meaning has nothing to do with Presents.

Jamie18
17-12-06, 16:54
There is no magical 'true meaning' of Christmas.

The holiday in its current incarnation is a mishmash of a million different traditions - people can celebrate it how they like.

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 17:00
There is no magical 'true meaning' of Christmas.



Not anymore or so it seems. :(

With the Corporations over commercializing it therefore killing the real meaning for a lot of people and the current anti Religion movements (The Corporations are behind most of that too) that have been going on the past 30 years (More so these days) I am not surprised.

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 17:08
The true meaning has nothing to do with Presents.

It seems you are yet to develop a sense of humour. ;)

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 17:12
It seems you are yet to develop a sense of humour. ;)

Oh I have one. :)

I just didn't think it was funny. :confused: :D

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 17:30
Jacob x5,


The presents thing is a Corporate push to make more money and always has been.

Now the Corporations (Companies) only purpose is to make money, love of money.

Religion in general hurts their bottom line because true believers, followers of the Scripture don't buy into all of the advertising that is pushed at them. So the less followers there are the more money they make and the richer they get. All of the Advertising goes against everything the Bible teaches us.

They tell us we need all of this stuff in advertising so they can make a profit, but if more people followed the Scripture they would make less profits because they would sell less.

There is really more to than that, but I hope you get the general idea. :)

Mona Sax
17-12-06, 17:38
Why can't the "true meaning of Christmas" be a subjective matter?

Some people want to celebrate Jesus' birth and/or life, others just want to spend some time with their loved ones, a few want to get presents and some people don't want to celebrate anything at all. Let them all have the Christmas they want, I say.

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 17:47
Why can't the "true meaning of Christmas" be a subjective matter?

Some people want to celebrate Jesus' birth and/or life, others just want to spend some time with their loved ones, a few want to get presents and some people don't want to celebrate anything at all. Let them all have the Christmas they want, I say.

Now Mona. :D

Without going into it too much Christmas is a Religious Holiday first and Foremost. Hanukkah for the Jews is going on now also.

Yes I will agree that it's a good time to get together with family etc.

Not really sure I get the logic of people Celebrating Christmas while not believing. Really doesn't make much sense to me, but then that goes to my last post.

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 17:48
Jacob x5,


The presents thing is a Corporate push to make more money and always has been.

Now the Corporations (Companies) only purpose is to make money, love of money.

Religion in general hurts their bottom line because true believers, followers of the Scripture don't buy into all of the advertising that is pushed at them. So the less followers there are the more money they make and the richer they get. All of the Advertising goes against everything the Bible teaches us.

They tell us we need all of this stuff in advertising so they can make a profit, but if more people followed the Scripture they would make less profits because they would sell less.

There is really more to than that, but I hope you get the general idea. :)

I'll be perfectly honest with you: I don't care.

What I said was a reference to South Park.

And anyway, the most important thing about Christmas for me is getting presents. Sure, spending time with the family is great, but like everyone I have my selfish side, and there's nothing wrong with spending a day receiving lots of stuff. :D

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 17:52
And anyway, the most important thing about Christmas for me is getting presents. Sure, spending time with the family is great, but like everyone I have my selfish side, and there's nothing wrong with spending a day receiving lots of stuff. :D


I am not picking on you, but you have just stated the biggest problems why the true meaning of Christmas has been lost. :D

Mona Sax
17-12-06, 17:54
Without going into it too much Christmas is a Religious Holiday first and Foremost. Hanukkah for the Jews is going on now also.
For you, maybe. For me it's always been a tradition and nothing more. That's also the reason I celebrate it - it's just always been that way, and I wouldn't want to miss it.

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 17:57
Whatever the origins of Christmas are, it's not going to stay like that forever. Life goes on, the world changes, and so does Christmas. We're not all going to live in the past. As the world changes Christmas evolves. There is no 'true meaning' of Christmas, and it is not the 'true meaning' that has been lost, but the original way in which Christmas was celebrated, and nobody wants that anymore. We've moved on. Santa used to be green. He's red now. Who cares?

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 17:57
For you, maybe. For me it's always been a tradition and nothing more. That's also the reason I celebrate it - it's just always been that way, and I wouldn't want to miss it.

I can agree with you there. :)

It has always been that way, but the true meaning has been lost over the years. :(

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 17:59
...the true meaning has been lost over the years. :(

This phrase has no meaning.

BlackGrey
17-12-06, 18:00
Why can't the "true meaning of Christmas" be a subjective matter?

Some people want to celebrate Jesus' birth and/or life, others just want to spend some time with their loved ones, a few want to get presents and some people don't want to celebrate anything at all. Let them all have the Christmas they want, I say.

Hear, Hear! (Or is it here, here?) I'm not sure... :D

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 18:01
Whatever the origins of Christmas are, it's not going to stay like that forever. Life goes on, the world changes, and so does Christmas. We're not all going to live in the past. As the world changes Christmas evolves. There is no 'true meaning' of Christmas, and it is not the 'true meaning' that has been lost, but the original way in which Christmas was celebrated, and nobody wants that anymore. We've moved on. Santa used to be green. He's red now. Who cares?


That's the basic misconception and the main issue.

It's not living in the Past either BTW.

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 18:09
Then what is it?

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 18:12
Then what is it?

I seem to remember once a long time ago in the Bible when people moved on just before the Great Flood. ;)

History always repeats itself.

danitiwa
17-12-06, 18:19
That's an easy question! The TRUE meaning of christmas is Food, and Presents ! :vlol:

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 18:20
You ran out of come-backs? Never fear — a quote from the Bible is here!

Jamie18
17-12-06, 19:17
Now Mona. :D

Without going into it too much Christmas is a Religious Holiday first and Foremost. Hanukkah for the Jews is going on now also.

Yes I will agree that it's a good time to get together with family etc.

Not really sure I get the logic of people Celebrating Christmas while not believing. Really doesn't make much sense to me, but then that goes to my last post.

Well if you're not Irish, forget about celebrating St Patrick's Day.

Hallowe'en? If you're not Pagan then don't bother.

Yes, the festival known as Christmas has roots in Christianity, but there are many MANY aspects of the current traditions associated with it that have nothing to do with religion.

It's a mishmash of hundreds of different things all under the banner of 'Christmas', and people are free to celebrate it in whatever way they see fit. People who see Christmas as simply Santa Claus, presents and food are no less 'right' than people who see it as a celebration of the birth of Christ.

There is no 'true meaning' of Christmas and to say there is is highly arrogant, and if we're getting down to the details, false.

Mona Sax
17-12-06, 21:18
I seem to remember once a long time ago in the Bible when people moved on just before the Great Flood. ;)
You remember that? Wow, you must be older than I thought. ;)

All joking aside, what if people don't believe in any great flood or other biblical stories? Aren't they allowed to celebrate Christmas? And should we dismiss any progress because it could enrage an entity we don't even know exists?

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 21:20
Exactly, Mona.

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 21:37
You remember that? Wow, you must be older than I thought. ;)

No I am not quite that old. ROFL


All joking aside, what if people don't believe in any great flood or other biblical stories? Aren't they allowed to celebrate Christmas? And should we dismiss any progress because it could enrage an entity we don't even know exists?

They did prove the flood did happen I believe. ;)

I just think it's kinda hypocritical to not believe in the word (Jesus or God), but to still Celebrate Christmas, hanging up the lights, the tree, and all of the gifts etc.

It should be noted that most people I have met that go to Church don't really follow the Scripture unless it benifits them, if not they just ignore everything. That is unless they are looking at someone else.

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 21:41
Well if you're not Irish, forget about celebrating St Patrick's Day.

Hallowe'en? If you're not Pagan then don't bother.




I don't Celebrate either of those. ;)

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 21:41
The true meaning of Christmas is whatever you make of it. For little kids, the true meaning of Christmas is shiny presents and new toys. For adults, the true meaning of Christmas seems to be either booze and parties or extra time spent focusing on their religion. :whi:

Though I suppose you could say the true true meaning of Christmas is what's written next to the word in the Oxford Dictionary. :D

Mona Sax
17-12-06, 21:48
They did prove the flood did happen I believe. ;)
Nope. The only "proof" I've ever heard of was a ship on a mountain, which (if it really exists) could've ended up there in a million of ways (maybe there used to be a lake up there, or some guy simply thought it was a good idea to build a ship on a mountain). Another thing is marine-animal fossils on the mainland, which most likely result from climatic changes and plate tectonics.

I just think it's kinda hypocritical to not believe in the word (Jesus or God), but to still Celebrate Christmas, hanging up the lights, the tree, and all of the gifts etc.
It would be hypocritical to not believe and pretend to do so. Lights, Xmas trees and gifts have nothing to do with the Christian religion (well, maybe the gifts a little, if one assumes that tradition goes back to the three kings).

It should be noted that most people I have met that go to Church don't really follow the Scripture unless it benifits them, if not they just ignore everything. That is unless they are looking at someone else.
Yeah, maybe. Then again I neither go to church nor follow the scripture, unless it coincidentally matches my own values. ;)

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 21:52
All the main religons I know about are flawed and incomplete.

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 22:36
Nope. The only "proof" I've ever heard of was a ship on a mountain, which (if it really exists) could've ended up there in a million of ways (maybe there used to be a lake up there, or some guy simply thought it was a good idea to build a ship on a mountain). Another thing is marine-animal fossils on the mainland, which most likely result from climatic changes and plate tectonics.





I wasn't talking about the ship they found. :) I really never though it was the Ark in the 1st place because it wouldn't have lasted that long out in the open air. They estimate the Bible it Self is about 4,000 or 5,000 years old (The Book itself). Now the History written in the Book is thousands of years before that. Nobody really knows for sure how long ago it was. I am talking about the Old Testiment here only.

I was talking about they had found that most areas were indeed under water about the time when the Flood was supposed to have happend.

That explains some of the fossiles, but depending on when they were dated too.



Yeah, maybe. Then again I neither go to church nor follow the scripture, unless it coincidentally matches my own values. ;)

You seem like a good person so there is a lot in the Scripture that you follow. :) One doesn't have to goto Church nor Read the Scripture to be a good person. :)

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 22:38
All the main religons I know about are flawed and incomplete.

Well yes they are as is any thing that is man made is flawed. ;)

They wouldn't be complete until Man is no longer here on Earth.


You ran out of come-backs? Never fear — a quote from the Bible is here!

Well all of the answers are in that one book. ;)

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 22:54
Well all of the answers are in that one book. ;)

Bull****. Absolutely 100% bull****.

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 23:06
Bull****. Absolutely 100% bull****.

I forgot you are only 14 so I will not respond to that comment as you are still way too young to fully understand the topic.

Jacob x5
17-12-06, 23:23
Lol!

You seem to be pretty certain that your ideas and only yours are absolutely correct. I think that's very narrow-minded.

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 23:31
Lol!

You seem to be pretty certain that your ideas and only yours are absolutely correct. I think that's very narrow-minded.

My ideas? :confused:

You have it wrong as they aren't my ideas. The Bible has been around for a long time.

No I am really more open minded that you would believe. :)

I never said I was 100% correct about anything.

I am just saying that being only 14 you really haven't experienced life yet so it's really too early to make a decision on whether or not God is real or not.

A lot of things can change in 5 to 10 years. :)

JANKERSON
17-12-06, 23:46
The true meaning of Christmas is whatever you make of it. For little kids, the true meaning of Christmas is shiny presents and new toys. For adults, the true meaning of Christmas seems to be either booze and parties or extra time spent focusing on their religion. :whi:




Oh you mean the ones that go to Church Twice a year on Christmas and Easter. :rolleyes: :whi:

For Kids yes it's all about getting gifts.

People will use any reason to get drunk, holidays are just another reason other than hey it's Saturday or 6:30, or The Sun came up today.

mau3genius
18-12-06, 00:37
Lol!

You seem to be pretty certain that your ideas and only yours are absolutely correct. I think that's very narrow-minded.

Actually, saying the Bible is 100% Bull**** is pretty narrow-minded too :p

I don't care about Christmas really. I just see it as one more opportunity to get presents and having a great time with friends and family.
I don't believe in God and I really don't care about the true meaning of Christmas (I'm narrow-minded in this too).
But I respect others' beliefs, it's just that for me this particular date doesn't mean more than what I mentioned above.

Geck-o-Lizard
18-12-06, 00:50
I am just saying that being only 14 you really haven't experienced life yet so it's really too early to make a decision on whether or not God is real or not.

I disagree. By 12 I was sure of my beliefs, that there is no higher being.

The same goes for people who were brought up to be Christians (or Muslims, or Jews, or anything), and who have never experienced any other belief. They simply believe in God because they've been told all their life that he exists, as if it's a scientific fact with hard evidence supporting it. Those types of people very rarely explore their beliefs during their teenage years and early twenties. Without that personal exploration, how can they really be sure that theire beliefs are their own, and not someone else's (their parents') that's been pushed into their head in place of their natural beliefs that might lean in a completely different direction?

Did you do that exploration, Jankerson? Did you find God by yourself or have you always "known" him, as children know Santa Claus?

Jamie18
18-12-06, 02:36
I just think it's kinda hypocritical to not believe in the word (Jesus or God), but to still Celebrate Christmas, hanging up the lights, the tree, and all of the gifts etc.

It's not hypocritical at all.

Christmas is not just built on Christianity. You know Yule? Yeah, nothing to do with Christianity. Saturnalia? Nothing either. These are also part of the basis of the current holiday on December 25th known in our countries as Christmas.

So that's like me saying, you're hypocritical for celebrating Christmas because you're not Pagan.

And it's kind of hilarious that you say "hanging up the lights, the tree, and all of the gifts etc."

Guess where the idea of Christmas trees originated? It's a Pagan tradition from the Winter solstice. So how on EARTH is someone hypocritical for carrying out a Pagan ritual while not having Christian beliefs?

There are a lot of aspects of Christian folklore in the current Western incarnation of Christmas, but there are just as many, in fact more aspects taken from non-Christian sources.

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 03:33
Did you do that exploration, Jankerson? Did you find God by yourself or have you always "known" him, as children know Santa Claus?


I found him on my own and was Baptized at 18. ;)

I studied many different Religions from the age of 16 to 18 so it wasn't just something I came up with out of the blue.

And no I don't come from a Religious family, but I did the Sunday School thing when I was a kid and did go to church over the years off and on.

I disagree. By 12 I was sure of my beliefs, that there is no higher being.

Not sure at 12 that a person is mature enough to fully understand those things.

No higher being.....

Now the Universe just didn't appear all on it's own, something had to start it all. Science tells us that there is life on other planets through mathematics. (The idea that we are the only ones in the Universe is Narcissistic)

Sense there is no real proof that GOD isn't real, although they have been trying to prove he isn't forever. Also they haven't been able to disprove anything in the Bible. Jesus was a real person as we all know.

So with no hard facts to support that the Bible isn't true I find it interesting how people can doubt it. (I blame Society for this in general)

I am not one of those Bible thumping people either, but some how the Parents of Kids today aren't passing the word along and letting them make certain choices when they are still way too young to fully understand what they are deciding. That really blows my mind.

Spitfire
18-12-06, 03:42
Christmas Was invented by Big Commercial Markets, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.:)

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 03:46
Christmas Was invented by Big Commercial Markets, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.:)

Well that's all it seems to be these days for sure.

Jacob x5
18-12-06, 08:01
Actually, saying the Bible is 100% Bull**** is pretty narrow-minded...

I didn't see the bible was 100% bull****, I said that the phrase "The answer to every question is in the bible" is bull****. :D

Mona Sax
18-12-06, 08:37
Now the Universe just didn't appear all on it's own, something had to start it all. Science tells us that there is life on other planets through mathematics. (The idea that we are the only ones in the Universe is Narcissistic)

Sense there is no real proof that GOD isn't real, although they have been trying to prove he isn't forever. Also they haven't been able to disprove anything in the Bible. Jesus was a real person as we all know.

So with no hard facts to support that the Bible isn't true I find it interesting how people can doubt it. (I blame Society for this in general)
The point is that science can't and doesn't even claim to know where everything came from. Natural science can't prove there's a god and it can't prove the opposite, it's a fact-based, not a philosophical discipline. We can describe and explain many (not all) of nature's phenomena today, but people who want to believe in the supernatural will never find their answers to their religious questions in science. Let's take evolution, for example. It's a proven fact, even large parts of the catholic church accept it nowadays. But we'll never know for sure what sparked life and evolution.

So if you want proof that god exists or doesn't exist, you're going to look forever, unless he's kind enough to openly show himself and end all debate. So you can't really blame people for not believing in god just because he hasn't been proven to be an illusion because there's no proof for the opposite either. It's the same with the bible, only that many of its stories are much, much more unlikely than a divine impulse that started it all. I think it's pretty much accepted that not everything can be taken literally, people's age for example. Or the flood. ;) Due to plate tectonics, Earth's water hasn't always been where it is today. There used to be seas where there are mountains now and vice versa, could be that's what the bible means. But what remains more or less unchanged is the total amount of water on our planet, it's physically impossible for a flood to happen on a global scale. In other words, if the water level rises somewhere, it has to sink in another place. I don't think you can take the 40 days for granted, either - more like 4.5 billion years, since it's a process that has been and still is happening since Earth came to existence.

Personally I believe Jesus was real (believe, not know - there's no proof ;)). I just don't think he really was the son of god, just an itinerant preacher, like many others. Seems to have been a pretty good fella, though. :D

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 14:50
Personally I believe Jesus was real (believe, not know - there's no proof ;)). I just don't think he really was the son of god, just an itinerant preacher, like many others. Seems to have been a pretty good fella, though. :D


That's pretty much what the Jews believe Mona. :)

Yes It's hard to put it all together. The time line in the Old Testament for one, nobody really knows how long it really is. (One thing I would like to know)

I have my own Opinions on the Catholic Church that I won't state here. :cen:

Evolution is the big question really, did it really happen that way or was Genesis really the way it happened? It takes a certian amount of faith to believe either way sense neither has been proven by science.

Mona Sax
18-12-06, 15:04
Evolution is the big question really, did it really happen that way or was Genesis really the way it happened? It takes a certian amount of faith to believe either way sense neither has been proven by science.
Yeah, but you see, evolution and Genesis don't exclude each other. The theory of evolution simply states that species change, not where they originally came from. It's absolutely possible that the first simple organisms were created by a god or that he/she even steered evolution. As far as I know, the bible only says that god created all living beings, not how he/she did it. As a matter of fact, many scientists are devout christians, that's not a paradox at all.

IMO science and religion compliment, not oppose each other. Science can't answer philosophical or religious questions. It's a neutral subject, it can never tell you what to do in a certain situation. Therefore it's obvious people will want to fill in the blanks. The only difference between you and me is that I fill some of them with my own convictions (moral values) and leave others open (origin and destination of life) while you resort to the bible. There are as many ways to fill in those blanks as there are people, so I think trying to "prove" each other wrong is totally silly since the question at hand isn't scientific at all.

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 15:12
Yeah, but you see, evolution and Genesis don't exclude each other. The theory of evolution simply states that species change, not where they originally came from. It's absolutely possible that the first simple organisms were created by a god or that he/she even steered evolution. As far as I know, the bible only says that god created all living beings, not how he/she did it. As a matter of fact, many scientists are devout christians, that's not a paradox at all.


That's true it doesn't say how he or she did it. :)

But then in Biblical times the people wouldn't have known or understood those things.

I really think it all comes down to the time line of the Old Testiment and how long it really is. Like How long ago was Moses really alive. Was it 10,000 years ago, 20,000 or more.....

It's possible that Moses really did live as long as the Bible says he did. Also how long did Adam and Eve live?

By todays standards no as people only live a short time, and it's rare that people live over 100 years in todays times.

Mona Sax
18-12-06, 15:24
I really think it all comes down to the time line of the Old Testiment and how long it really is. Like How long ago was Moses really alive. Was it 10,000 years ago, 20,000 or more.....
I think the pharaoh in that story is usually believed to be Ramesses II., who lived in the 13th century BC. Even if that's not true, Egypt was ruled by kings and pharaohs from roughly 3200-30 BC, so if Moses existed, he must've lived in that period.

BTW, I added some stuff about science and religion to my last post, if you're interested.

About the age of people: Don't forget that we live in much more hygienic and safe times, so people have a much bigger chance of growing old nowadays than they used to. During antiquity, it was very common for people to die at age 30-40, much like they still do in certain parts of the world today. So when the bible says "XY died at age 748" or whatever, I think it's just a way to stress that somebody lived a very long time for contemporary standards. Not to forget there often weren't any official registers, so many people probably didn't have any idea how old they were at all.

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 15:33
There are as many ways to fill in those blanks as there are people, so I think trying to "prove" each other wrong is totally silly since the question at hand isn't scientific at all.

True in many ways, it's not scientific.

Although some just say it's not possible for God to be real, but then they believe that there might be life on other planets.

Society is really the problem as a lot people today are so self consumed they could never get over themselves long enough to open their minds to the possibilities.

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 15:36
I think the pharaoh in that story is usually believed to be Ramesses II., who lived in the 13th century BC. Even if that's not true, Egypt was ruled by kings and pharaohs from roughly 3200-30 BC, so if Moses existed, he must've lived in that period.



I think it goes back much farther than that personally. :) Although that would be about 5,000 years ago so maybe :)

Mona Sax
18-12-06, 15:47
Although some just say it's not possible for God to be real, but then they believe that there might be life on other planets.

Society is really the problem as a lot people today are so self consumed they could never get over themselves long enough to open their minds to the possibilities.
IMO that's just as unfounded as saying god absolutely has to be real, since, as mentioned, neither side can provide any proof for their claims. Believing is one thing, selling one's beliefs as the truth is another.

You're totally right about close-minded people. Those can be found in any faction, though. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists (well, those maybe not so much ;)), atheists, whatever. Thinking one's beliefs are right and everybody else's got it wrong is the first step towards fundamentalism.

I think it goes back much farther than that personally. :) Although that would be 15,000 years ago so I could buy into that. :)
What do you mean by "it"? Moses or life in general? I obviously believe life to be much, much older than those 5200 years since the first Egyptian king, and not in terms of a few thousand years. If you mean Moses, that's possible too. Maybe the person who wrote that part just used the contemporary term "pharaoh" for an ancient chieftain.

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 16:14
IMO that's just as unfounded as saying god absolutely has to be real, since, as mentioned, neither side can provide any proof for their claims. Believing is one thing, selling one's beliefs as the truth is another.

You're totally right about close-minded people. Those can be found in any faction, though. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists (well, those maybe not so much ;)), atheists, whatever. Thinking one's beliefs are right and everybody else's got it wrong is the first step towards fundamentalism.


What do you mean by "it"? Moses or life in general? I obviously believe life to be much, much older than those 5200 years since the first Egyptian king, and not in terms of a few thousand years. If you mean Moses, that's possible too. Maybe the person who wrote that part just used the contemporary term "pharaoh" for an ancient chieftain.


I ment life and Moses really. :)

Society wants everyone to focus on themselves, and also going against everything the Bible teaches. Like in one of my other posts about the Corporations. It all about Greed, love of money etc. The less followers there are the more money they make and the richer they get.

So what they want is for people to be completely self consumed, close minded and spend all of their money on stuff they really don't need. ;) You know they are getting their way.....

They want all of us to think like kids do.....

The Bible teaches the opposite you know.

Mona Sax
18-12-06, 16:21
Yeah, I know, and I think so too. There are just too many parts in the bible I can't accept to buy the whole package. ;)

Most of the historical descriptions, for example, or that some of the commandments force you either in hypocrisy or into a personal living hell if you happen to feel a certain way. What I personally can't accept at all is the acceptability of revenge (which the new testament fixed, thank god ;)) and the homophobic/misogynist tendencies.

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 16:30
Yeah, I know, and I think so too. There are just too many parts in the bible I can't accept to buy the whole package. ;)

Most of the historical descriptions, for example, or that some of the commandments force you either in hypocrisy or into a personal living hell if you happen to feel a certain way. What I personally can't accept at all is the acceptability of revenge (which the new testament fixed, thank god ;)) and the homophobic/misogynist tendencies.


Nobody says you have to accept it all Mona, if anyone tells you different send them to me and I will stomp on them alittle. :)

Just understanding the teachings in the Bible could take a lifetime. God knows this and he also knows that we all Sin. That's why he sent Jesus.

I truely believe that Jesus just wants us to do our best to follow the teachings. ;)

JANKERSON
18-12-06, 18:55
misogynist tendencies.

That's an interesting subject really. :D

I do agree that Women should have the same rights as Men do to set the record straight.

But. ;) It's a double edge sword.

I draw the line when it comes to Women in the workplace for various reasons:

The Divorce rate is at an all time high now and increasing every year. Various reasons added to that fact due to more Women being in the Workplace.

Parenting in general is becoming a lost art due to both parents in the workforce. The kids are suffering more each year.

It's become a 2 income economy now so a single breadwinner really can't support the family anymore.

The overall wage rate percentage has gone down due to the amount of Women in the workplace.

The life expectancy of Women has gone down due to the added stresses of being in the workplace, soon it will be as low or lower than it is for men.

Women are having children later in life than they used too, and there are certain medical issues that are coming about because of this. (Women know what I mean here)

There have been a number of studies done to support everything I have posted.

So I am not sure personally that it's a good thing overall, good for Women in general yes, but Society as a whole is suffering because of it.

Mona Sax
18-12-06, 20:56
So women should just stay at home? If you truly think that, I'm not even going to bother to reply.

Maybe certain men should finally do some work at home and take care of their (yes, their, it always takes two) kids, too. And maybe women should finally get the same wages for the same work. There, problem solved.

JANKERSON
19-12-06, 05:04
So women should just stay at home? If you truly think that, I'm not even going to bother to reply.

No that's not what I ment. ;)

What I ment was that once kids are in the picture then yes one parent should be home with the kids (NOT WORKING). The kids would be better off in the long run. You really can't have both Parents working full time without the kids suffering and not being raised properly.

No the current situations can't be reversed, what was started in the 60's and 70's is hard to stop now.

What ****es me off is the Career Women who I have heard sneer at the stay at home moms.


Maybe certain men should finally do some work at home and take care of their (yes, their, it always takes two) kids, too. And maybe women should finally get the same wages for the same work. There, problem solved.

When I was married both times I did all the house work. ;) But then both of my Ex Wives were slobs and so were their kids. (Kids from previous marriages)

Believe me I would have been a stay at home dad in a minute if I had the chance, but I never had kids of my own and my EX's didn't have that great of jobs so either we both had to work or I did.