PDA

View Full Version : General Philosophy Thread


jackali
17-12-06, 10:14
Welcome to the General Philosophy Thread. It is in this place that we will discover the truth behind our fine forum members. Are you an empiricist? Or maybe a rationalist?

The purpose of this thread is to provide a haven for those who enjoy to philosophise, spread your ideas and theorems and theories on life, the universe and everything.

Remember, if it cannot be proven it is still a valid idea, no matter how unusual or globally sceptic.



This is a place of good will and intrigue, not a place to openly attack people via their ideas.

Mr.Burns
17-12-06, 10:16
Excellent:) I'd love to stay and help start a topic but I'm off to work, but I just wanted to say thanks for finally starting this.

dox online
17-12-06, 10:19
what was before god?

does god even exsist?

what was jesus?

is jesus god or the sun of god?

is there more people on other planets?

is jesus real?

what is god?

was jesus ever on earth?
:D

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 10:19
I think I'll stay a lurker here, at least until someone starts a topic I can take part it.

jackali
17-12-06, 10:20
Excellent:) I'd love to stay and help start a topic but I'm off to work, but I just wanted to say thanks for finally starting this.

Thanks :D

Here's an idea I came up with a few months ago and mentioned it before in the general chat thread as there wasn't one for philosophical ideas.

What if we are not in fact real, but dreams. In this way we will have no free will, nor will our actions be pre-destined. This would prove the existence of only one being in existence and would undermine Descartes "Cogito ergo sum" argument. We ourselves would not be thinking beings, but merely characters in a dream, dreamt to think and dream.

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 10:21
Religion is necessary to make our life peacefully.
No one is atheist,they just don't know who God is.So,they're still in doubt


Is it suit to this thread?? :confused:

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 10:22
Religion is necessary to make our life peacefully.
No one is atheist,they just don't know who God is.So,they're still in doubt

That is your opinion. ;)

I am religious, but I respect other people's beliefs.

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 10:24
What if we are not in fact real, but dreams. In this way we will have no free will, nor will our actions be pre-destined. This would prove the existence of only one being in existence and would undermine Descartes "Cogito ergo sum" argument. We ourselves would not be thinking beings, but merely characters in a dream, dreamt to think and dream.

Kinda like the Fayth [FFX]. But who's dream would we be then?

Religion is necessary to make our life peacefully.
No one is atheist,they just don't know who God is.So,they're still in doubt


Trust me, I'm an atheist. I have no doubt about it. I don't need religion to live a happy and balanced life.

jackali
17-12-06, 10:25
That is your opinion. ;)

Technically this is all opinion, conjecture and speculation seeing as we can neither prove nor disprove most philosophical points.

Kinda like the Fayth [FFX]. But who's dream would we be then?

Kind of, yes. I suppose we could be the dream of one, simple human. Therefore showing the awsome power of the human mind, however we don't know how the human mind really is, nor human-kind as we only know what we are dreamt to know.

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 10:25
Technically this is all opinion, conjecture and speculations seeing as we can neither prove nor disprove most philosophical points.
Exactly.
Everything that is said here is simply opinion.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 10:26
I don't think anyone would really know the meaning of life. That is something no one is meant to understand, and I guess that not even the wisest person has ever been able to comprehend it.

Everyone can have personal opinions of what the meaning of life is, but it won't be the true answer. My pesonal opinion is that we are just here to experience life, and whether you are a good person or a bad person, will determine if you go to Heaven or Hell.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 10:31
Religion is necessary to make our life peacefully.
No one is atheist,they just don't know who God is.So,they're still in doubt

I disagree very strongly with this. I'm an atheist, and I'm in no doubt about that. Just the way some strongly religous people "feel" that there is a god, I feel that we are alone, and that what we see is all we've got. We are each our own god. And without religion, my life is extremely peaceful, without inner conflict of "would my religion allow this? is this the right thing to do?" - I just do what's right for me, with my own set of morals that weren't decided for me by my ancestors. (True, very few of my morals are orignal and modern, but I'm not restricted to a certain set of them, as religion would prefer)

In fact it's my own personal belief that religion is a great cause of disruption, violence and disagreement, when people who hold opposing beliefs try to force it upon each other. Without these beliefs to push to each other, that conflict wouldn't arise.

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 10:31
We just have to wait the result from Above,what the true opinions is

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 10:33
As far as my experiences go, there is no "above" to give all the answers. We need to find them ourselves.


(Btw, "true opinion" is a paradox. :p )

jackali
17-12-06, 10:35
I don't think anyone would really know the meaning of life. That is something no one is meant to understand, and I guess that not even the wisest person has ever been able to comprehend it.

Everyone can have personal opinions of what the meaning of life is, but it won't be the true answer. My pesonal opinion is that we are just here to experience life, and whether you are a good person or a bad person, will determine if you go to Heaven or Hell.

None of us pretend to know the meaning of life, this is all a point of discussion, to spread ideas. Nothing is known because technically we cannot truely know anything. As Descartes once said "Trust not those who have deceived you even once", as our senses can deceive us, we should not trust them. But then, when we are deceived by our senses do we not use those same senses to tell us we have been deceived. Therefore we cannot truely know anything especially is it comes from our senses.

tr_mitch
17-12-06, 10:35
In fact it's my own personal belief that religion is a great cause of disruption, violence and disagreement, when people who hold opposing beliefs try to force it upon each other. Without these beliefs to push to each other, that conflict wouldn't arise.

You pretty much summed up my views. :tmb:

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 10:39
In fact it's my own personal belief that religion is a great cause of disruption, violence and disagreement, when people who hold opposing beliefs try to force it upon each other. Without these beliefs to push to each other, that conflict wouldn't arise.


If you get an accident,you're almost die,for example..Will you pray to God??

OK,i appreciate all opinions,please don't hate me..although i really believe God

:)

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 10:39
Kind of, yes. I suppose we could be the dream of one, simple human. Therefore showing the awsome power of the human mind, however we don't know how the human mind really is, nor human-kind as we only know what we are dreamt to know.

But who is this human? Where is he? Why is he real and we're only a dream of his? Why does he only dream, is he ever awake?

I don't think anyone would really know the meaning of life. That is something no one is meant to understand, and I guess that not even the wisest person has ever been able to comprehend it.


I don't think life has a meaning. Like I said once before: Big Bang, evolution, we're here. Things don't happen for a reason, everything is a coincidence.

And without religion, my life is extremely peaceful, without inner conflict of "would my religion allow this? is this the right thing to do?" - I just do what's right for me, with my own set of morals that weren't decided for me by my ancestors.

Excellent point :tmb:

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 10:40
If you get an accident,you're almost die,for example..Will you pray to God??

OK,i appreciate all opinions,please don't hate me..although i really believe God

:)
Are you trying to convert people away from their religious beliefs or something?
I'm a Christian, but I don't go around trying to convert people (or that's what it seems) to my religion.

Greenkey2
17-12-06, 10:42
IMO...


*Faith is great. Organised religion just gets in its way.

*Life is whatever you chose to make it - either cry into your beer with gloom and doom or get on with enjoying yourself and helping others to do the same.

*Death is also great. It marks the end of one thing and the start of another. Don't fear or hate it because it's as natural as life (so quit spending thousands on botox - grow old gracefully ;)).

*Love was made to be shared. Denied love is a tragedy for everyone.

*The universe is too vast and complex for us to even begin to understand it. Enjoy the search for answers, but it is the search, not the answers, that is important.


That's my 50p worth :D

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 10:43
*The universe is too vast and complex for us to even begin to understand it. Enjoy the search for answers, but it is the search, not the answers, that is important.


:tmb:

[Psst, Jenni... could you please take a look at the Discworld-thread I revived earlier? Thanks :D]

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 10:46
If you get an accident,you're almost die,for example..Will you pray to God??

Well, I've never been in a near-fatal accident, so I can't answer this accurately, but I've never prayed to God before for any reason, and I can't see myself suddenly becoming a born-again Christian upon meeting the underside of a bus; more likely I'd be screaming foul language at the top of my lungs. ;) Lying in hospital afterwards, I'd be praying that the doctors hadn't spent all their time at med school getting drunk. :)

My pesonal opinion is that we are just here to experience life, and whether you are a good person or a bad person, will determine if you go to Heaven or Hell.

Hell is a place of punishment for people who disobeyed or chose not to believe in God. Its punishment isn't in the eternal burning, but in the realisation that there was a God after all, and by being damned to Hell for all eternity, you'll never get to meet him. The uppermost layer of Hell was said to be where the pagans went if they'd led good lives - endless fields with a large castle in the middle of the land, where they could exist forever. So anyone who chooses not to believe in God will end up in Hell, even if their goodness in life had surpassed that of a saint's. Do you agree that this should happen?

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 10:47
Are you trying to convert people away from their religious beliefs or something?
I'm a Christian, but I don't go around trying to convert people (or that's what it seems) to my religion.


No way!!! :) :tea:

jackali
17-12-06, 10:57
But who is this human? Where is he? Why is he real and we're only a dream of his? Why does he only dream, is he ever awake?

We cannot know who this human is, maybe just an average person (this being may not even be human (by our standards)). Perhaps every human has dreams such as this.
This Human would have to be somewhere, possibly on the planet Earth, otherwise his/her dream would be completely fictional and have no basis in anything.
It is only an idea, I only thought of it to find a flaw in Descartes allegedly indisputable "Cogito ergo sum" argument.
It is possible that he/she does dream constantly, but could equally be awake and sleep half the time. The dream just starts where it left off from the night before.

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 10:59
But is this person alone in the world? If the world we live in is a dream, one person's dream... Are there other people in the world who dream of other worlds, then?

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:00
Hell is a place of punishment for people who disobeyed or chose not to believe in God. Its punishment isn't in the eternal burning, but in the realisation that there was a God after all, and by being damned to Hell for all eternity, you'll never get to meet him. The uppermost layer of Hell was said to be where the pagans went if they'd led good lives - endless fields with a large castle in the middle of the land, where they could exist forever. So anyone who chooses not to believe in God will end up in Hell, even if their goodness in life had surpassed that of a saint's. Do you agree that this should happen?

I kind of agree with you, Gecko :)

tr_mitch
17-12-06, 11:00
We cannot know who this human is, maybe just an average person (this being may not even be human (by our standards)). Perhaps every human has dreams such as this.
This Human would have to be somewhere, possibly on the planet Earth, otherwise his/her dream would be completely fictional and have no basis in anything.
It is only an idea, I only thought of it to find a flaw in Descartes allegedly indisputable "Cogito ergo sum" argument.
It is possible that he/she does dream constantly, but could equally be awake and sleep half the time. The dream just starts where it left off from the night before.

That has got to be the most strangest 'belief of life' i've ever heard.
Not like it's a bad thing, Just never heard it put like that before.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:00
I suppose that would answer the question of parallel universes. :whi:

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:02
I kind of agree with you, Gecko :)

Hang on, do you mean you agree with what I explained about Hell, or you agree with me when I think it's an incredibly cruel and unfair theory?

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:02
But is this person alone in the world? If the world we live in is a dream, one person's dream... Are there other people in the world who dream of other worlds, then?

Ever since I was a little kid, I always though that life was a dream. I still do, kind of. What if there is no "others"? If you woke up from your dream, there would just be absolutely nothingness.

@Gecko: I agree with you about the "Hell" part.

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 11:04
If you woke up from your dream, there would just be absolutely nothingness.

But why would you be the only existing person? What if we all woke up? Or are we actually in parallel universes, but somehow dream the same dream?

jackali
17-12-06, 11:05
But is this person alone in the world? If the world we live in is a dream, one person's dream... Are there other people in the world who dream of other worlds, then?
I thought that there would be and:
I suppose that would answer the question of parallel universes. :whi:
I thought that answers it all very well. Better than I could have anyway. A parallel universe being the dream of another person.

That has got to be the most strangest 'belief of life' i've ever heard.
Not like it's a bad thing, Just never heard it put like that before.
It isn't actually what I believe, just something that can be believed, if you know what i mean. And yes, it is very, very strange. I suppose that says a lot about me though:(

EIf you woke up from your dream, there would just be absolutely nothingness.
If we are dreams then we cannot wake up.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:05
But why would you be the only existing person? What if we all woke up? Or are we actually in parallel universes, but somehow dream the same dream?

What if I wasn't a person, Kam. What if I was just a dream myself?

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:07
Ever since I was a little kid, I always though that life was a dream. I still do, kind of. What if there is no "others"? If you woke up from your dream, there would just be absolutely nothingness.

So really "waking up" is the same as dying?

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 11:07
What if I wasn't a person, Kam. What if I was just a dream myself?

Then who's dreaming?

So really "waking up" is the same as dying?

No, it's the same as destroying the whole world :D

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 11:07
Gecko: You're an atheist,but know much about hell and trust it..i'm confused :confused:

jarhead
17-12-06, 11:08
*Life is whatever you chose to make it - either cry into your beer with gloom and doom or get on with enjoying yourself and helping others to do the same.


Exacly. I'm an atheist and live my own life. Personally I dont think I could live my life by following cerrtain rules laid down thousands of years ago. Maybe it's because I'm an atheist and maybe if I grew up believing in god then it might be different. Lifes yours, make your life what you want it to be.

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:08
Then who's dreaming?

Maybe it's me! :p
I certainly know I'm living.

Interesting concept there Kam.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:09
Gecko: You're an atheist,but know much about hell and trust it..i'm confused
I know about other religions, particularly the details behind their most frequent arguments, because I choose to educate myself in what I don't believe, rather than remaining ignorant and supporting my arguments with "just 'coz", as many others do. ;)

I don't believe in Hell, or Heaven, or Valhalla, or anything like that, FYI. :)

No, it's the same as destroying the whole world :D

Sounds like me on a Monday. :D

tr_mitch
17-12-06, 11:10
I


It isn't actually what I believe, just something that can be believed, if you know what i mean. And yes, it is very, very strange. I suppose that says a lot about me though:(


It's a cool idea.
Though from my point of view.... the most stupid belief such as something like 'An elephant gave birth to the earth' would be just as believable to me as the whole 'believing god created the earth'.
Theres no proof, Therefore IMO it's all bull****.

jackali
17-12-06, 11:11
Then who's dreaming?

Well, as this being is greater than us, some could call it God. However the defenition of God must be that of a philisophical God, not a religious one. God must simply be a being greater than us. Not the greatest, nor uncreated. "God" could simply be a normal person, in a real world in their own little community of other beings of the same level of power.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:11
So really "waking up" is the same as dying?

I don't really classify it as "dying" but more like something that is very hard to explain and I have never been able to figure out myself. I mean, there could not be any humans, or food, or words, or tastes or anything.

Then who's dreaming?

Nobody is.

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 11:13
Nobody is.

If no one is dreaming, there is no dream, thus there is no world, thus we don't exist [even in the dream].

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:13
I don't really classify it as "dying" but more like something that is very hard to explain and I have never been able to figure out myself. I mean, there could not be any humans, or food, or words, or tastes or anything.

Perhaps classifying it as "the end"?

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 11:14
Are you afraid of death?

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:15
Are you afraid of death?
Me?
In my case, not really.
As I believe there is a Heaven and Hell.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:15
If no one is dreaming, there is no dream, thus there is no world, thus we don't exist [even in the dream].

That is basically my point. I call it nothingness, but, I call my life a dream, and when I wake up, there's nothingness.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:15
Are you afraid of death?

Me? No. How I see it is thus. Before we were conceived, we were nothing. When we die, we'll go back to that state, and our bodies will be recycled back into the earth, to let other life be created. We've already spent half an eternity being not alive; we'll just finish off the other half when we go.

After eternity, who knows? :whi: Would be pretty funky if time just repeats itself.

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 11:16
That is basically my point. I call it nothingness, but, I call my life a dream, and when I wake up, there's nothingness.

But I'm here. I know I am, whether I'm a dream or real. That means that either there is a world or there is a dream.

CerebralAssassin
17-12-06, 11:16
this thread is making my brain short-circuit http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/jumping/jumping0001.gif

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:18
Has anyone ever thought of eternity?
When does eternity end?
Does it just continue for ever and ever?

Kamrusepas
17-12-06, 11:18
this thread is making my brain short-circuit http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/jumping/jumping0001.gif

*pats you on the head* There, there. Why don't you go watch cartoons or something? http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c152/Kamrusepas/aww.gif

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:19
But I'm here. I know I am, whether I'm a dream or real. That means that either there is a world or there is a dream.

Yes, but you just might be in my dream, and that TRF is just an object in my dream. All of my friends are like dreams, but when they say "I know I'm not a dream" it could be my mind that makes me think that they said that.

And by "nothingness", I mean "before the Big Bang" kind of thing.

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 11:20
I have difficult question:

Do you know from what human being made of??

Geck: After died,whe would return to our first place -->in a earth's stomach

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:20
So life is everyone's personal lucid dream?

Has anyone ever thought of eternity?
When does eternity end?
Does it just continue for ever and ever?

Well, that's the generally accepted definition, yeah. :D

Do you know from what human being made of??

Hardly an arcane question. :p Billions of atoms of various different elements, with a majority of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:21
But when did what we call "existence" ever begin? And I mean before big band or creation.

@Geck: I know, so nothingness will eventually run on for ever and ever?

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 11:22
Has anyone ever thought of eternity?
I've

When does eternity end?
Never

Does it just continue for ever and ever?
Yes,it does

tr_mitch
17-12-06, 11:22
But when did what we call "existence" ever begin? And I mean before big band or creation.

Lol you ask us like were actually going to give you the right answer.
There are many unanswered questions in this world, all people are ever gonna do is speculate.
It's like how can space go on forever and ever and how do people know it does? There's got to be an end.... how can it just keep going on and on.

CerebralAssassin
17-12-06, 11:23
*pats you on the head* There, there. Why don't you go watch cartoons or something? http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c152/Kamrusepas/aww.gif

that smily is so >> :vlol: lol..I'm too tired..I'm goin to bed :rolleyes: :D :cln:

see ya!!

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:23
Do you know from what human being made of??

Human beings are made out of the same stuff that are in stars around the entire universe, but I forget what that compound is.

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:23
Lol you ask us like were actually going to give you the right answer.
There are many unanswered questions in this world, all people are ever gonna do is speculate.
It's like how can space go on forever and ever and how do people know it does? There's got to be an end.... how can it just keep going on and on.
Ok, I wanted people's opinions.

jarhead
17-12-06, 11:25
that smily is so >> :vlol: lol..I'm too tired..I'm goin to bed :rolleyes: :D :cln:

see ya!!

lol


I'm not affraid of death, its gonna happen. Theres no way your gonna live forever and why would anyone want to. I dont believe in heaven and hell although it would be intresting if it excisted, but I guess no one will know for sure.

And yes, everything has an end, just somethings are too vast for us to register the start and end of it.

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:26
I'm not affraid of death, its gonna happen. Theres no way your gonna live forever and why would anyone want to. I dont believe in heaven and hell although it would be intresting if it excisted, but I guess no one will know for sure.
Well when you die you're gonna know for sure aren't you?
Well actually, that's only if Heaven and Hell exist.

ivannnnn
17-12-06, 11:27
Hardly an arcane question. :p Billions of atoms of various different elements, with a majority of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.

Right,and the otherwise too :p
such as earth,mud,and anything resemble to earth element

jackali
17-12-06, 11:27
Ok, I wanted people's opinions.

Opinions such as those could actually take all of existence to type out

jarhead
17-12-06, 11:27
Well when you die you're gonna know for sure aren't you?
Well actually, that's only if Heaven and Hell exist.

I meant as in people who are alive, if your living you have no idea whether heaven or hell excists

And I'm a man of science, not religion, so yer elements and other chemicals that make up the universe

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:28
I meant as in people who are alive, if your living you have no idea whether heaven or hell excists
Oh.
Yeah, you're right.
Even if you have some sort of hallucination and you really believe you saw Heaven, that isn't proof.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:28
All answers could lie in the static screen of the television.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:32
But when did what we call "existence" ever begin? And I mean before big band or creation.

Existence is the state of existing. Existence begins as soon as something starts existing. So for modern humans, existence began roughly ten thousand years ago. For the Earth, existence began roughly 4 billion years ago. For the universe, existence began roughly 14 billion years ago.

As for the basic platform upon which existence is built, which I assume is what you're really referring to, I don't believe it has a beginning. Not everything is finite.

@Geck: I know, so nothingness will eventually run on for ever and ever?

There's no eventuality about it. No running on, which suggests progression. When there's pure nothingness, that's all there is. No time, or dimensions, or movement, or matter. A pure vacuum.

Scientists have discovered that occasionally, in a total vacuum, sub-atomic particles wink in and out of existence. With all of eternity to play with, anything at all could appear in the infinitely vast vacuum that would be the universe after it's ceased to exist. A hydrogen atom. A chunk of carbon. A bowl of petunias. A fully-grown giraffe. A new Big Bang...

jackali
17-12-06, 11:33
And I'm a man of science, not religion, so yer elements and other chemicals that make up the universe

But there you are saying that religion and science cannot compliment each other. While I am in no way religious, I still believe that religion is necessary for some people. It is a method of control over people,yes, but it also gives hope to those who cannot find it in life itself. I can find the good things in life and therefore do not need to look forwards to the good things after life, but some people cannot and for them there is religion.

Religion, if indeed it is true could in fact give answers that science cannot? After all, we had such firm beliefs based in science of the oder and structure to the universe until we discovered the random movements of sub-atomic particles.

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 11:34
Existence is the state of existing. Existence begins as soon as something starts existing. So for modern humans, existence began roughly ten thousand years ago. For the Earth, existence began roughly 4 billion years ago. For the universe, existence began roughly 14 billion years ago.

As for the basic platform upon which existence is built, which I assume is what you're really referring to, I don't believe it has a beginning. Not everything is finite.



There's no eventuality about it. No running on, which suggests progression. When there's pure nothingness, that's all there is. No time, or dimensions, or movement, or matter. A pure vacuum.

Scientists have discovered that occasionally, in a total vacuum, sub-atomic particles wink in and out of existence. With all of eternity to play with, anything at all could appear in the infinitely vast vacuum that would be the universe after it's ceased to exist. A hydrogen atom. A chunk of carbon. A bowl of petunias. A fully-grown giraffe. A new Big Bang...
Wow!
I've never thought of it like that.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:35
But the static screen could lead to the answer of what is "out there".

jackali
17-12-06, 11:35
This has really become very metaphysical and Aristotelianist.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:38
But the static screen could lead to the answer of what is "out there".

Well, it's a bit closer to my example of the random particles in the vacuum. Given time, like a few billion years (if you managed to keep a TV powered on that long), perfect images and even silent movie sequences could leap out the static just by the random positions of the black and white speckles.

Mytly
17-12-06, 11:39
I disagree very strongly with this. I'm an atheist, and I'm in no doubt about that. Just the way some strongly religous people "feel" that there is a god, I feel that we are alone, and that what we see is all we've got. We are each our own god. And without religion, my life is extremely peaceful, without inner conflict of "would my religion allow this? is this the right thing to do?" - I just do what's right for me, with my own set of morals that weren't decided for me by my ancestors. (True, very few of my morals are orignal and modern, but I'm not restricted to a certain set of them, as religion would prefer)

In fact it's my own personal belief that religion is a great cause of disruption, violence and disagreement, when people who hold opposing beliefs try to force it upon each other. Without these beliefs to push to each other, that conflict wouldn't arise.
As far as my experiences go, there is no "above" to give all the answers. We need to find them ourselves.

Very well put, Geck-o-Lizard! I agree 100%. :tmb:

If you get an accident,you're almost die,for example..Will you pray to God??
No. That's hypocrisy at its worst, I think. I think remaining true to one's beliefs, no matter what the circumstances, is the true test of integrity.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:40
Well, it's a bit closer to my example of the random particles in the vacuum. Given time, like a few billion years (if you managed to keep a TV powered on that long), perfect images and even silent movie sequences could leap out the static just by the random positions of the black and white speckles.

How do you mean, exactly? People will come out of the TV, like in the movie "The Ring"?

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:44
No. The dots might appear in such a pattern as it might resemble an apple, or a face, or even a photographically realistic shot of a daffodil. But it would be completely random, not an actual representation of anything. It's a bit like the stars, where we see constellations that resemble things we know - the Plough, a farming tool for digging up the earth; Orion, a warrior hunter with his bow. They're not actual representations of the things they appear to be; just patterns we see in randomness. That's what the TV's static does - it produces a set of randomly positioned dots, and they might just look like snow, or they might look a little bit like a real image, even though it isn't an intended image at all.

ace_85
17-12-06, 11:45
There's no eventuality about it. No running on, which suggests progression. When there's pure nothingness, that's all there is. No time, or dimensions, or movement, or matter. A pure vacuum.

I agree wholly with that concept, but the only thing that makes me wonder is that the 'universe' before the Big Bang, or what there was of it (known as a singularity) had no dimensions or physical properties. There would have been no 'vacuum', because that implies the presence of physical forces that simply weren't extant. In fact, the only reality (i.e. the one we know and can appreciate) was created by the singularity as it expanded in that massively eventful second after the Big Bang.

So it becomes kind of a religious question in a way. What was the nature of existence before the creation of time and physics to govern it? It's widely believed that it's not possible to get something from nothing, and yet the fact that the Universe exists, and patently didn't before the Big Bang raises a lot of existential questions. It's more that side of things that fascinates me above anything else. It's the point where science meets philosphy I believe, and is perhaps always unknowable.

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:47
No. The dots might appear in such a pattern as it might resemble an apple, or a face, or even a photographically realistic shot of a daffodil. But it would be completely random, not an actual representation of anything. It's a bit like the stars, where we see constellations that resemble things we know - the Plough, a farming tool for digging up the earth; Orion, a warrior hunter with his bow. They're not actual representations of the things they appear to be; just patterns we see in randomness. That's what the TV's static does - it produces a set of randomly positioned dots, and they might just look like snow, or they might look a little bit like a real image, even though it isn't an intended image at all.

I get you now. The television is pretty strange... maybe radiation is the answer. I know that was random, but you never know.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:51
Radiation is the answer. :) Radiation is extremely random, if you've ever seen a half-life chart of a radioactive substance you'd see how although there's a general downwards trend in the strength of the radioactivity, at a smaller level, it varies incredibly within that trend. That random interference causes static in your TV and radio when you're not tuned into a station.

It's widely believed that it's not possible to get something from nothing

I refer back to my mention about scientists' discovery that subatomic particles can appear out of nothing in a vacuum.

There would have been no 'vacuum', because that implies the presence of physical forces that simply weren't extant.
In a way that's correct, but in space as it is just now, it's a vacuum, and it's not named as such because of other forces being exerted on it, or because it's exerting force on anything else. It simply has no atmospheric pressure (as it has no atmosphere), which makes it a vacuum. So even without a universe, a vacuum is present, although there's nothing for it to exert any pressure on.

Mytly
17-12-06, 11:54
It's widely believed that it's not possible to get something from nothing, and yet the fact that the Universe exists, and patently didn't before the Big Bang raises a lot of existential questions.

The idea that "it's not possible to get something from nothing" applies only within the universe, we don't know if it applies outside of it. However the universe popped into existence, the rules that apply within the universe had nothing to do with its coming into existence.

jackali
17-12-06, 11:55
I refer back to my mention about scientists' discovery that subatomic particles can appear out of nothing in a vacuum.

However there is no way to know that they do in fact come from nothing, there could be something there, outside of this spacial-temporal realm for them to exist in and come from.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 11:57
And that would apply to our universe when it was created in the big bang, too, if you subscribe to that theory of creation. :wve:

Ikas90
17-12-06, 11:58
You seem to know plenty, Gecko. You really must have been studying philosophy for a long time. I don't really study it much, but I guess that everything I am saying is just my own personal opinion. I try to understand things, and your wise words seem to give me a better idea of them.

dox online
17-12-06, 11:59
It's widely believed that it's not possible to get something from nothing, and yet the fact that the Universe exists, and patently didn't before the Big Bang raises a lot of existential questions. It's more that side of things that fascinates me above anything else. It's the point where science meets philosphy I believe, and is perhaps always unknowable.

the earth was made from nothing

jackali
17-12-06, 12:01
Here's a new point: Knowledge of the future - Is it possible to have? Discuss.

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 12:01
Thanks for that deep philosophical response, dox. ;)

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 12:05
Here's a new point: Knowledge of the future - Is it possible to have? Discuss.

In my own personal opinion, I don't think so. I think it may be possible to watch events from the past, but I don't think you can see what's going to happen. I don't believe in fate, so I don't think the future is a decided thing. Sure, if you're very observant, you may be able to predict it, but there are always unexpected elements.

For example, when you're halfway up a tree, you can look back at where you came, and it's quite easy to see, because all the branches lead back down to a central trunk. But if you try to look up and see where you're going to go, the best you can do is guess what branches you're going to grab onto next. And what if a branch snaps when you grab it, and it had been an integral part of your plan to the top? Life is a very big tree indeed, with lots and lots of branches to choose from.

(I also don't believe in the power of psychics. :p)

ace_85
17-12-06, 12:08
I refer back to my mention about scientists' discovery that subatomic particles can appear out of nothing in a vacuum.

Yes, I'm aware of that, and also of the ability for subatomic particles to communicate in a way that seems to entirely contradict Einstein's Theory of Relativity (i.e. that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light). However, they also usually disappear just as quickly - usually within thousandths of a nanosecond - because under the laws of physics, new material cannot just be created or destroyed (the Conservation of Mass laws)


In a way that's correct, but in space as it is just now, it's a vacuum, and it's not named as such because of other forces being exerted on it, or because it's exerting force on anything else. It simply has no atmospheric pressure (as it has no atmosphere), which makes it a vacuum.The point I was making is that a vacuum is still based on the principles of physics - Ok, so it's a complete absence of pretty much anything, but it is still bounded by finite physical laws; it has structure and substance, a reality of sorts. Before the Big Bang there was no known structure to reality - a vacuum could not exist, because the laws to define it had not been created. That's why I believe it's a philosophical question - how do you relate to something that by rights doesn't exist, and yet must in some way have been there?

Geck-o-Lizard
17-12-06, 12:10
You're looking for answers when I can only give theories, sorry. :whi:

Ikas90
17-12-06, 12:12
I kind of have a psychic sense... I think of something, and then the very next second, it happens. I can't predict something that will happen the next day.

Mad Tony
17-12-06, 12:13
I kind of have a psychic sense... I think of something, and then the very next second, it happens. I can't predict something that will happen the next day.
:yik:
I'm like that as well!

jackali
17-12-06, 12:13
I think it is impossible to know the future.
While the future appears to resemble the past, i think that it does not.
After all, in my opinion, you can have an event happen with exactly the same circumstances 500 times and have the same result, but the 501st time may have a completely different result and so we cannot know the future.

ace_85
17-12-06, 12:23
You're looking for answers when I can only give theories, sorry. :whi:

Well, I'm not looking for answers exactly - the greatest minds in science today can't give a definite response to these questions either. Largely it's because they are almost religious questions, certainly at the very limit of human comprehension. It's very difficult to envisage a state where none of the factors that govern our universe - gravity, nuclear forces, time even - are around. I just think it's a fascinating area; perhaps the only true point where science and religion meet. We can know to within billionths of a second after the Big Bang exactly how and what the Universe was like, and yet any time before that is a complete mystery.

Mytly
17-12-06, 12:27
We can know to within billionths of a second after the Big Bang exactly how and what the Universe was like, and yet any time before that is a complete mystery.
Probably because the very idea of time "before" the Big Bang is a contradiction in terms - time is a property of our universe, so it itself came into existence only with the Big Bang. So, by definition, there was no time before the Big Bang.

CuteKittenlol
17-12-06, 12:34
*Love was made to be shared. Denied love is a tragedy for everyone.

*The universe is too vast and complex for us to even begin to understand it. Enjoy the search for answers, but it is the search, not the answers, that is important.

:tmb:
I'm an atheist and live my own life.
:tmb:
It's a cool idea.
Though from my point of view.... the most stupid belief such as something like 'An elephant gave birth to the earth' would be just as believable to me as the whole 'believing god created the earth'.
Theres no proof, Therefore IMO it's all bull****.
Lol.
We have no proof of heaven or hell either, thus, that is also bull**** in my eyes.
Are you afraid of death?
No.

Religion for me is a comfort factor, by that I mean people not wanting to accept death as the end, they want to believe in reincarnation and heaven/hell.

IMO

ace_85
17-12-06, 12:34
Probably because the very idea of time "before" the Big Bang is a contradiction in terms - time is a property of our universe, so it itself came into existence only with the Big Bang. So, by definition, there was no time before the Big Bang.

Well, exactly - that was a bad choice of vocabulary on my part. 'Point' would probably have been the better word. But even so, there are a huge number of philosphical implications to that scenario; is this the only Universe that will ever be, for example? Have many 'Big Bangs' occured throughout history (that isn't even the right word either really, I'm just using it in the absence of a better one), and it just so happens that this is the one that created a set of values suitable for existence or reality? There's just a lot that is unknown and perhaps, by it's very nature, unknowable.

Ada the Mental
17-12-06, 13:43
I don't think anyone would really know the meaning of life. That is something no one is meant to understand, and I guess that not even the wisest person has ever been able to comprehend it.

Everyone can have personal opinions of what the meaning of life is, but it won't be the true answer.
That's what i think too.

In fact it's my own personal belief that religion is a great cause of disruption, violence and disagreement, when people who hold opposing beliefs try to force it upon each other. Without these beliefs to push to each other, that conflict wouldn't arise.
I couldn't agre more.Faith is a psycological need for some people that relieves them from the burden of free will,of having to choose a certain way of life/ethics,and cope with the fear of the nothingness after death.But in essence religion-organised religion- is a means to gain power and control over people.prganised religion is politics,IMO.

So anyone who chooses not to believe in God will end up in Hell, even if their goodness in life had surpassed that of a saint's. Do you agree that this should happen?
That reminds me of when i asked my R.E. teacher whether a good person who's an atheist would end up in Hell.I couldn't help but smirkwhen he failed to give me a straightforward answer.

rika2
17-12-06, 13:49
IMO religion is just a way to see things without wanting to be believe in the true harshness of life.

badboy70
17-12-06, 19:32
I kind of have a psychic sense... I think of something, and then the very next second, it happens. I can't predict something that will happen the next day.
that happens alot with me too, i noticed it when i was playing a game in portugal on vacation. i kept wanting the others to put down a specific card and they always did (with a few exceptions :p)

Cord_Croft
17-12-06, 19:47
Things scare me! Such as like I can predict things that will happen later that day, I also dream them!
I do however believe that we cant be the only race in the universe, how can we be the only people?

Mytly
18-12-06, 05:28
Well, exactly - that was a bad choice of vocabulary on my part. 'Point' would probably have been the better word. But even so, there are a huge number of philosphical implications to that scenario; is this the only Universe that will ever be, for example? Have many 'Big Bangs' occured throughout history (that isn't even the right word either really, I'm just using it in the absence of a better one), and it just so happens that this is the one that created a set of values suitable for existence or reality? There's just a lot that is unknown and perhaps, by it's very nature, unknowable.
The idea of multiple / parallel universes fascinates me. It's my personal belief that the number of universes in existence is infinite, and we happen to inhabit only one of these. But whether we can ever know anything about the other universes is open for debate, as there seems to be no feasible way to transfer information between various universes. So, I guess, this hyypothesis is ultimately, as you say, by it's very nature, unknowable.

I've also read about the idea that universes can be created by ordinary beings (though far more technologically advanced than us humans, of course). :eek:
The newly created universe would at once become completely separate from the creator's universe, of course, but in such a case, the creator might be able to leave some sort of message ingrained within the created universe's fabric. The novel "Contact" by Carl Sagan used a similar premise in relation to the number pi, which is deeply intertwined with the very nature of our universe.

Ikas90
18-12-06, 08:05
I do however believe that we cant be the only race in the universe, how can we be the only people?

God may have only created us, Cord Croft. He might have not created aliens at all, but yet again, it could still be a dream ;)

stormyhorse
21-12-06, 15:38
what was before god?

does god even exsist?

what was jesus?

is jesus god or the sun of god?

is there more people on other planets?

is jesus real?

what is god?

was jesus ever on earth?
:D

If God exist or not, was never a question for me.
If there wouldn't be God, we couldn't survive one minute.
We are breathing God, we are made out of God, when I talk to you, I talk to God. God is everything and everywhere. There is nothing, that is not God.
So Jesus was of course the son of God, like you, like me.

Problems I have with the evil. I think it results of fear. But from where comes the fear? I think fear is there, where God isn't felt. When you can't feel God, then you feel alone, in danger and you have fear and you want power and use it, to protect yourself or what you love. You feel fear, when you feel the lack of God. But when God is everywhere, why don't we permanently feel God? This answer is beyond my comprehenson. God isn't something you can understand and question. As I'm only a little stupid human, I can't understand God, but I feel you can't squeeze God in a religion, you like and believe by following it rules, you follow the will of God. God is too big for this.