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Geck-o-Lizard
13-01-07, 11:17
Two in one, to see people's attitude when both are considered. :)

Pick the option from the poll that best describes your position, or pick "other" and explain your choice.

Phlip
13-01-07, 11:29
I support both, people might not have enough money to support a baby, some people are so nasty and spiteful that they just need to be killed
here's an example of natla bieng so nasty that she was frozen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Xyh1075kY&mode=related&search=
She was asking for it.

Mona Sax
13-01-07, 11:35
I support abortion (personal freedom, right to decide what happens to your own body), but not the death penalty (useless, doesn't help reducing the crime rate, innocents get killed).

The difference is that abortion is a personal problem that the ones concerned should be able to solve for themselves without outside interference (much like euthanasia, actually), while the death penalty is a social matter. If the state kills, we all kill - we, the citizens, are the state. Not to mention that IMO an embryo/fetus isn't a fully developed human being.

Kamrusepas
13-01-07, 11:38
I support both.

Yes yes, I'm a horrible person.

Lavinder
13-01-07, 11:39
I support both, people might not have enough money to support a baby, some people are so nasty and spiteful that they just need to be killed
here's an example of natla bieng so nasty that she was frozen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Xyh1075kY&mode=related&search=
She was asking for it.

Yes but what if the person was innocent? Plus if the person was truly evil I would want to have them rot in a cell alone until they die.

jarhead
13-01-07, 11:39
I support both when they are used fairly and not used because the woman doesnt want a baby, or one person thinks another shouldn't live.

I agree Laura, but if they were proven guilty and were guilty of what ever they did, then I think the death penalty would be a open option. I think its good to stop a chapter and not have a criminal in a cell

Lavinder
13-01-07, 11:43
I support both when they are used fairly and not used because the woman doesnt want a baby, or one person thinks another shouldn't live.

I agree Laura, but if they were proven guilty and were guilty of what ever they did, then I think the death penalty would be a open option. I think its good to stop a chapter and not have a criminal in a cell

I'm just sick and twisted and would want to watch them suffer. Like the poor children (forgot where) stuck in cots since they were born, and are driven mad with no human contact :(

danitiwa
13-01-07, 12:03
I support both.

Yes yes, I'm a horrible person.

same here, but that doesn't mean we should kill the world off, people might not have the right circumstances to raise a child. In that case, it's better that the baby doesn't suffer. Then I think people who do terrible things for the wrong reasons should be executed, but humaneley.

Mad Tony
13-01-07, 12:08
I support both.

With abortion, I don't think it's right to make a woman have a child even if it wasn't her fault. E.g. Rape.

I support the death penalty because there are many prisons in the UK which treat the prisoners as if they're in a hotel.
And murderers have come out of prison and then re-offended.

Forwen
13-01-07, 12:12
I support the death penalty because there are many prisons in the UK which treat the prisoners as if they're in a hotel.
Yeah. Spongers. Gas them :)

Psyched
13-01-07, 12:23
I support the death penalty in extreme cases, such as Saddam, and I support abortion all the way. If a mother's not going to be able to care for the child, or just doesn't want it yet, it ought to be acceptable for her to choose. She shouldn't have to be forced to take responsibility that she just can't handle and have her life potentially ruined, and likewise the child doesn't deserve to come into the world raised poorly by an unfit mother/parents or by the state without knowledge of his/her real parents.

kill bill
13-01-07, 12:25
Support both:cln: ;)

AnthonyShock1515
13-01-07, 12:26
Well, I support abortion.
I have limits on Death though, I think people shold be executed depending on the severity of the crime committed. No lethal injection for stealing a pair of suade boots from Next!

danitiwa
13-01-07, 12:27
I support both.

With abortion, I don't think it's right to make a woman have a child even if it wasn't her fault. E.g. Rape.

I support the death penalty because there are many prisons in the UK which treat the prisoners as if they're in a hotel.
And murderers have come out of prison and then re-offended.

You're so right ben. (Finally, we agree on something.) Some men can be such brutes. :mad:

Jacob x5
13-01-07, 12:29
I support both, depending on the circumstances.

I support abortion. The baby might have to live with a condition or live in conditions that are going to prevent it from living a full, happy life. It might have been an unwanted pregnancy and the mother might simply not want a baby.

With abortion, I don't think it's right to make a woman have a child even if it wasn't her fault.

Here's another example of when an abortion should be allowed, which I forgot to mention.

The death penalty is a tricky one. I support it because I think anyone who really deserves it doesn't deserve to live in our society. It may not be a particularly horrendous punishment, but most people don't really want to die. And aside from that, it's not what they want that matters — if the court desides they should be executed for the crimes they have committed, so be it. Who cares what they want. By adjusting their punishment to something that would be worse for them rather than something that will be most effective, we're acting like kids.

I support abortion (personal freedom, right to decide what happens to your own body), but not the death penalty (useless, doesn't help reducing the crime rate, innocents get killed).

I agree with you here, however.

Not to mention that IMO an embryo/fetus isn't a fully developed human being.

That's not an opinion; that's fact.

Forwen
13-01-07, 12:36
Just for the record - I assume we're speaking about legitimate death penalty in a stable country like US, not political assassinations (some would say necessities) like Hussein's case, where the person being executed is least important?

If that's the case, then I'm fully against death penalty. Serves no one.

Bullethail
13-01-07, 12:38
It depends. I voted that I support the death penalty, but not abortion, but I don't think that's always the case for me. For abortion, wrong in some cases, but when really needed, it gets a little tricky. Death penalty: At least they're up against an something that gives criminals something to fear. Let's delve into a convict's mind: "Okay, I'm being sent to life in prison. That's not so bad. It'll be tough, but I'm okay with it. Besides, there's a chance that I could eventually escape!" Meanwhile, death is something to fear. However, it shouldn't get to how it was in the Victorian era, where a 13 year old boy stealing a spoon could almost certainly be hanged, yet despite it all, the streets are rife with crime.

Phlip
13-01-07, 12:42
Yes but what if the person was innocent? Plus if the person was truly evil I would want to have them rot in a cell alone until they die.

very good piont, but I'd be happy knowing they'd have no chance to kill again.
http://213.131.227.84/~old/d/evil-smiley-face.jpg

Betal
13-01-07, 12:42
I support both

Forwen
13-01-07, 12:51
The death penalty is a tricky one. I support it because I think anyone who really deserves it doesn't deserve to live in our society. It may not be a particularly horrendous punishment, but most people don't really want to die. And aside from that, it's not what they want that matters ó if the court desides they should be executed for the crimes they have committed, so be it. Who cares what they want.
By adjusting their punishment to something that would be worse for them rather than something that will be most effective, we're acting like kids.
You're contradicting yourself here. So it's a matter of morality or effectiveness? They hardly ever go together.
That's not an opinion; that's fact.
Yep - you can't deny that a foetus already has its distinctive DNA pattern along with future personality, looks, intelligence and the like layed out. That's also a fact. Can a pregnant woman still choose abortion after acknowledging it? That's her business and hers only.
Let's delve into a convict's mind: "Okay, I'm being sent to life in prison. That's not so bad. It'll be tough, but I'm okay with it. Besides, there's a chance that I could eventually escape!" Meanwhile, death is something to fear.
You're a born sociologist :)

viper456
13-01-07, 12:55
i dont support abortion to its full extent. I understand that if a woman is raped it may not be fair to make her have that child because she may not have any love towards it and it will remind her of what happened. I would say that is the one and only real exception

As for some silly little tart that was basically to lazy to use protection (and i know its also up to the male to be responsible for it too) i believe that she should be made to have the baby then put it up for adoption as there are many couples out there who would love to have a child of their own but simply can't.

I support the death penalty purely because i believe in an eye for an eye. As simple as that. The punishment should fit the crime.

Geck-o-Lizard
13-01-07, 12:56
Death penalty: At least they're up against an something that gives criminals something to fear. Let's delve into a convict's mind: "Okay, I'm being sent to life in prison. That's not so bad. It'll be tough, but I'm okay with it. Besides, there's a chance that I could eventually escape!" Meanwhile, death is something to fear.

Not always. For a lot of the psychos who do enough to deserve having their head lopped off with a rusty saw, they don't fear death. Death is quick, and they know it. Much better than spending 70 years with Bubba.

Bullethail
13-01-07, 13:00
Not always. For a lot of the psychos who do enough to deserve having their head lopped off with a rusty saw, they don't fear death. Death is quick, and they know it. Much better than spending 70 years with Bubba.


True, true, it doesn't always work. Personally, I'd sentence them to life in prison, with a nose-hair plucking session every evening. They'd soon reget ever commiting any crime they ever dreamed of. ;)

Geck-o-Lizard
13-01-07, 13:06
I'd have them put to work. Get them doing the dangerous jobs that other people shouldn't have to do unless they want to, eg. military, nuclear waste monitoring, mining, oil rig maintenance... but without all the protective gear that's normally used.

Or they could be dropped into a mile-deep pit so the only way they could escape would be by escaping from their cells and climbing up the smooth concrete walls. Use robots & machines to monitor them, have food dropped down via a separate shaft and distributed mechanically, etc. Full sensory deprivation until they die.

Bullethail
13-01-07, 13:12
Or perhaps force them to find a way to climb it. When they get to the top, they find that they're in another cell, and a grate closes over the hole.



As far as work, I'd force them to work in a nursery under the supervision of armed gaurds. :mis:

Catlantean
13-01-07, 13:16
I don't support death penalty, crimes punished with it should IMO be punished with lifetime imprisonment. I don't believe in hell, and if you did atrocities here on Earth than that's where you should pay for them. Over a long time, too.

Abortion, I think it is always murder...but there are some cases when it's justified, like when the child is so deformed it would be unable to live, or the mother's life is in question. In all other cases, I see no reason to kill the child (apart from it being easier and quicker, but those excuses don't really work for me when it's a human life we're talking about) - better to put it up for adoption instead.

george_croft
13-01-07, 13:48
I support abortion, its a woman's choice if she wants too pop out a baby or not:)

I'm absolutely against the death penalty, why should we have the right to kill someone else ? What's going on in the US, is a good example, of how wrong, and simply stupid it could get! People get a fifteen minute head check, to see if their psychotic or not, and then its time for a little injection!! Anyway, I don't see how it helps to kill the criminal, its just not human:wve:

Titanium
13-01-07, 13:52
I definately disagree with people getting abortions just because the child is generally unwanted. They took the risk, they made the mistakes, they're responsible for the child. The child deserves a life. If doctors think it should be aborted because it will suffer in life then thats up to them and the mother. But Aborting a child who can live a normal happy life is wrong.

I agree with what Cat says on the Death Penalty, surely they should pay for they're crimes with lifetime inprisonment. I suppose it does depend on your faith and whether you think there is a hell.

xMiSsCrOfTx
13-01-07, 14:09
I support neither.

When a woman decides to get an abortion, it seems unfair to the child. That child will never have that chance to take its first few breaths or first few steps. I believe that everyone, even a fetus that cannot speak for itself, has the right to a life.

The death penalty is helpful in some cases, but it seems like the easy way out on punishing people. Just kill them off and people will learn their lesson. But we still have a gradually increasing crime rate. And a fraction of those people being put on death row are innocent. I disagree with it strongly. Keeping criminals in prison for life would force them to pay, not ending their suffering by shooting them up with some poison.

JANKERSON
13-01-07, 14:21
I support both.

It's a Woman's choice IMO to have an abortion or not, there are too many unwanted children in this world already, no need to add to that number.

It is better to remove the killers from the gene pool forever, also it's cheaper to kill them than to feed them for 50+ years.

Unless they make a huge Prison on Antarctica and put all of them there, removing them from Society completely.

Apofiss
13-01-07, 14:37
Other; I support abortion as it's your own body and it's up to you to decide. As for death penalty 50/50.. I'd not exclude d.penalty as it always depends on a specific situation, person itself and many other circumstances.

Kalle923
13-01-07, 15:03
I support neither of them. Death penalty = Useless. If someone did something horrible they should live and learn to regret it, not just die.

Abortion = It is a child that's killed. That it's not born doesn't matter, it still is a child.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see the "I support neither" option at first so I put it on "Other". Well, I support neither ^_^

Alive_and_Funky
13-01-07, 16:20
When a woman decides to get an abortion, it seems unfair to the child. That child will never have that chance to take its first few breaths or first few steps. I believe that everyone, even a fetus that cannot speak for itself, has the right to a life.
That perfectly sums up how I feel about abortion. I do see why someone would want to have an abortion, but it still isn't fair to the fetus, even if they were conceived through rape.


As for execution, I lean to both sides. On one hand, execution can save innocent lives by getting rid of a dangerous person. On the other hand, what if someone has been framed for a crime they didn't commit?

Pipolinne
13-01-07, 16:25
Third one,though I fail to understand why two different subjects should be related into the same poll.

Alive_and_Funky
13-01-07, 16:30
Third one,though I fail to understand why two different subjects should be related into the same poll.
When you think about it, abortion is sort of a form of execution. Some people agree with abortion but don't agree with regular execution. So it's interesting to say how people's views on the two subjects differ when they are pretty similar subjects.

Mad Tony
13-01-07, 16:30
When you think about it, abortion is sort of a form of execution. Some people agree with abortion but don't agree with regular execution. So it's interesting to say how people's views on the two subjects differ when they are pretty similar subjects.
But what if the child would be born to a family who would abuse him or her for the next 16 years of his life?

Lara Croft!
13-01-07, 16:32
I support both!Maybe after good points presented to me,I could change my mind about the death penalty,but abortion I think it should be legal.It's better to end sth than to "torture" it for life!The pain for the woman and the remorses are punishment enough....To choose to accept these consequences,means that she really doesn't have a choice....

Alive_and_Funky
13-01-07, 16:33
But what if the child would be born to a family who would abuse him or her for the next 16 years of his life?
I still think they have the right to live. Abuse is a nasty thing, but surely the child still deserves a chance in life?

Mad Tony
13-01-07, 16:35
I still think they have the right to live. Abuse is a nasty thing, but surely the child still deserves a chance in life?
you have a point, but as I said at the start of this thread, I don't think it's right for the woman to have the baby if it wasn't her own choice.
She may not have the money to keep the child.
And wouldn't you rather have a child getting killed in it's early stages of development or suffer for many years?

Alive_and_Funky
13-01-07, 16:39
you have a point, but as I said at the start of this thread, I don't think it's right for the woman to have the baby if it wasn't her own choice.
She may not have the money to keep the child.
I had that in consideration when posting my view on abortion, but I still think the child has the right to live. And if the mother doesn't have enough money, there is adoption to consider.
And wouldn't you rather have a child getting killed in it's early stages of development or suffer for many years?
Now that's a toughie, and it's a close one, but I'll go for suffering for many years. There are ways out of the abuse, and there are many organisations who try to help.

Mad Tony
13-01-07, 16:40
Now that's a toughie, and it's a close one, but I'll go for suffering for many years. There are ways out of the abuse, and there are many organisations who try to help.
But tell me, why would you prefer the child to suffer and go through all that pain and sadness?

viper456
13-01-07, 16:44
if a child is going to be abused then abortion shouldnt be the option. Adoption should be. The child has a right to live.

I still dont understand why people have kids just to abuse them. Sick

Alive_and_Funky
13-01-07, 16:44
But tell me, why would you prefer the child to suffer and go through all that pain and sadness?
It's not as if I want them to go through it, but they can get away and they have the chance to choose what to do. Something some children consider when being abused is suicide. Suicide isn't a nice thing, but at least they have chosen that they want to leave this world. With abortion they aren't even given a choice.

Mad Tony
13-01-07, 16:46
It's not as if I want them to go through it, but they can get away and they have the chance to choose what to do. Something some children consider when being abused is suicide. Suicide isn't a nice thing, but at least they have chosen that they want to leave this world. With abortion they aren't even given a choice.
An opinion is an opinion I guess.
But I would still would not want a child to go through any suffering at all.

Phlip
13-01-07, 16:47
if a child is going to be abused then abortion shouldnt be the option. Adoption should be. The child has a right to live.


I didn't think of adoption!
I completely change my opinion, I supperted both but now I don't.
Killers should rot in jail!
*******s

Legends
13-01-07, 17:34
I support abortion, you should have rights to decide what happens to your own body.
If you’re a young girl that was so unlucky to get pregnant too early, I think abortion is the right choice. But if you’re a woman that keeps getting knocked up, and takes abortion after abortion, then I think it’s wrong. They have still rights, but I don’t sympathize at all with them.
As for death penalty, I think it’s wrong. There have been very few incidents where I think the person should get to die for the thing he or she did.
There is one thing I really think people should get punished for though… child abuse.. of any kind! People who are cruel or/and mean to children deserves to get a hard punishment! (maybe even death)

Forwen
13-01-07, 17:39
But if youíre a woman that keeps getting knocked up, and takes abortion after abortion, then I think itís wrong. They have still rights, but I donít sympathize at all with them.

Not that I know many women after abortion, but I've always thought this model is a standard myth created by abortion opponents. Abortion is not an alternative of contraception.

da tomb raider!
13-01-07, 18:12
I support abortions, but not the death penatly. If a woman doesn't want a child then it's best for her (And perhaps the baby) to have an abortion. And also, if there's going to be a problem with the baby's health or something, it's also best to have an abortion. With death penatlies, there's always a chance an innocent person gets executed, so I'm not for that.

Ampersand
13-01-07, 18:15
Option four for me, though it really depends on the circumstances.

Mytly
13-01-07, 19:48
Third one,though I fail to understand why two different subjects should be related into the same poll.
I agree. It just reinforces the idea that abortion is a form of murder - a view that I find horrendous. :mad:
I fully support abortion. The rights of the living are more important than the rights of the not-yet born, and if they are in conflict, the former should take precedence - IMO, it's as simple as that.
My views on the death penalty are more ambiguous. But on the whole, I am against it, as a matter of principle, as well as the fact that I think rotting in prison for decades a far more suitable punishment for heinous crimes, than the death penalty.

Lew
13-01-07, 20:13
We did an English Assignment on it and a Humanities one on Abortion, I'm not so sure about teh Death Penalty other than if they have so much proof then I wouldn't be bothered but Abortion only if it involves Rape, One Night Stand etc.

Reggie
13-01-07, 21:56
I voted "other". Primarily, I am against both but when one looks further into its obvious that it isn't as simple as accepting or not accepting it full stop. To me, the circumstances are important. What is it that WARRANTS an abortion? what is it that WARRANTS the death penalty? is it being strictly regulated so that the system is not abused?
For example, Abortion is commonly used as a form of contraception (the morning after pill) and the death penalty certainly has holes in system especially in places like China.

Here's a good report on the death sentence in China being abused:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/world/china/

Now, as for abortion, I do agree that life begins at conception. So the morning after pill would come under the term abortion for me. I think abortions are fine when it is in the interests of health and safety for the mother that a termination takes place. In this case it would be the moral dilemma of the mother.

Abortion is a more complicated topic and it all depends on whether the cirumstances deem it necessary.

Angel666
13-01-07, 22:02
I support both.

AmericanAssassin
13-01-07, 23:15
I support abortion and the death penalty.

Medipack
13-01-07, 23:26
I support abortion, and I think some people really deserve the death penalty. But it should only be used as a last resort.

Ada the Mental
13-01-07, 23:59
Death penalty-I'm not so sure.I suppose in extreme cases it is nesecairy.However I think that spending your life in a rathole cell is actually worse than dying.

As for abbortion,I support it.Why should a woman be forced to raise a child she does not or have the ability to raise,thus ruining her life?

CerebralAssassin
14-01-07, 01:02
I don't support death penalty, crimes punished with it should IMO be punished with lifetime imprisonment. I don't believe in hell, and if you did atrocities here on Earth than that's where you should pay for them. Over a long time, too.

Abortion, I think it is always murder...but there are some cases when it's justified, like when the child is so deformed it would be unable to live, or the mother's life is in question. In all other cases, I see no reason to kill the child (apart from it being easier and quicker, but those excuses don't really work for me when it's a human life we're talking about) - better to put it up for adoption instead.

I agree with you TOTALLY!I couldn't have said it better.there might not even be a "hell",so it makes sense for criminals to pay their dues HERE ON EARTH!!

and abortion is always murder of course..

Draco
14-01-07, 07:37
In regards to abortion, I support compulsive mass sterilization, after which abortion should be nearly never something to consider.

In regards to the death penalty, I support whatever costs less. So kill em.

the hooliganz
14-01-07, 08:01
i support death penalty but not abortion, that is mainly because i believe most people become pregnant because they like to experience sex, but accidentaly they got pregnant, which i hate, because i don't support pre-marital sex, that is because i'm a christian, but if abort fetus because they will die is ok for me, but why do i support death penalty? that is because they will continue to do evil if they weren't stop, because they have different lenghts of inprisonment, they can repeat it again and again, that is the way they could be stop

Spitfire
14-01-07, 08:20
I find it humorous that more people support the death of a developing baby and not that of a criminal.

I support both, some people truely deserve to die. Abortion, there are numerous reasons why this can be a valuable option but i don't agree it should be used as a birth control.

Reggie
14-01-07, 12:31
In regards to abortion, I support compulsive mass sterilization, after which abortion should be nearly never something to consider.

Mass sterilization? are you mad? I just can't comprehend why for any reason you'd want something like that? Yes, certain countries are overpopulated but that's a deranged solution. Any other reasons behind this? :confused:

In regards to the death penalty, I support whatever costs less. So kill em.

I'm curious to know what your attitude is towards human rights and the human rights group amnesty international?

Sofitegan
14-01-07, 12:44
i support abortion but not the death penalty.

IMO, abortion should be completely the choice of the woman carrying the baby, it ought to be a womans choice waht she does with her body.

But the death penalty is something else... i dont think we should be able to play around with something huge like that. maybe its almost justifiable when its someone like saddamn (sp?) hussein, who had commited mass acts against humanity and wasn't remotely sorry and didn't want to change his ways. But still, in my eyes thats pretty much murder.

Geck-o-Lizard
14-01-07, 12:57
In regards to abortion, I support compulsive mass sterilization, after which abortion should be nearly never something to consider.

So reproduction would become the responsibility of the state rather than the individual?

At least it would help combat overpopulation if nothing else.

rika2
14-01-07, 13:01
I support torture penalty... Death for some is too quick and merciful.

Mona Sax
14-01-07, 13:01
In regards to abortion, I support compulsive mass sterilization, after which abortion should be nearly never something to consider.
You're kidding, right? That would be a total disregard of human rights and dignity.

Geck-o-Lizard
14-01-07, 13:05
Well we do it to animals don't we?

Mona Sax
14-01-07, 13:06
Well we do it to animals don't we?
Tell me about it... :(

Reggie
14-01-07, 13:34
Well we do it to animals don't we?

True...but two "wrongs" don't make a right. Sterilization is another issue in itself. For example, my dog had to be sterilized after almost dying after giving birth to many puppies. The same could could be said about Euthanasia...we grant euthanisia to animals (most popularly dogs) so that they can have their suffering ended and die with what dignity they may have left.

So the question is, should life be considered "sacred" in absolute terms? (much like the Buddhist attitude towards life). Contradictions always seem to emerge when the case of an animal is compared to that of a similar case of a human.

e.g. Humans can't have euthanasia but Dogs can.
Humans shouldn't be sterlized but with animals its fine.

Should the rights to life and dignity be the same for all beings?

Only TR lover
14-01-07, 14:12
I suport abortion but not the death penalty

Draco
14-01-07, 18:45
You're kidding, right? That would be a total disregard of human rights and dignity.

And killing a human because you don't have a good enough job isn't?

You need a license to drive a car, have a dog, and practice a profession...yet you don't need one to have a child.

Welfare systems wouldn't be so 'needed' and adoption and abortion wouldn't be either.

Overpopulation has nothing to do with it, lower taxes does.

Forwen
14-01-07, 19:04
Out of curiosity: so you postulate a fully centralised and controlled human birth system? What for? It's not the Western, rich countries that are threatened with overpopulation - quite the contrary - and those that are are by definition too weak to enforce such a system. China's a good example.

West already faces problems with birth rate, and if a "license" was introduced then it would drop even more. I can't see how a government would want that even in order to ensure better quality of life of kids, especially since history proves that numbers are often ultimately more important than logistics.

So kill em.
Kill whom, exactly?

MyList88
14-01-07, 20:31
Both


life in prison is just a waste of tax dollars and resources
put that money into something better like education or science..or even charity

RAID
14-01-07, 20:46
I support the death penalty, but not abortion. I don't think it's fair for an unborn child to pay for the mistakes of the parents. I only support abortion in case the baby is a threat to the mother's life.

Death penalty I support 100%. Like Sadam or Osama. Both killed a hell lot of people and should be punished.

danitiwa
14-01-07, 20:49
People who do SICK things should be killed, (humaneley)if all of us where like those people society would eventually fall appart.

Mona Sax
14-01-07, 21:06
And killing a human because you don't have a good enough job isn't?
Err... what? :confused:
You need a license to drive a car, have a dog, and practice a profession...yet you don't need one to have a child.

Welfare systems wouldn't be so 'needed' and adoption and abortion wouldn't be either.

Overpopulation has nothing to do with it, lower taxes does.
You just can't decide whether other people can have children or not, you're in absolutely no position to do so. Having children is an inalienable right, it's part of everybody's utmost privacy. Invading that privacy is unimagineable if you believe in human dignity. IMO we can't afford not to.

Geck-o-Lizard
14-01-07, 21:29
Err... what? :confused:

He's referring to aborting a child when the mother wouldn't be able to afford to look after it.

Mona Sax
14-01-07, 21:36
He's referring to aborting a child when the mother wouldn't be able to afford to look after it.
I see.

Well, as I mentioned, an embryo or a fetus isn't a fully developed human being, so IMO the comparison doesn't work.
What I really don't understand is how many people would rather tell others what to do (Draco's compulsive sterilization or the prohibition of abortion) rather than letting the ones decide that are actually concerned. Supporting abortion doesn't mean one wants abortions to happen, it just means leaving the choice to the only ones who are in a position to make it.

Natla'd
14-01-07, 22:20
To be honest, I don't like making blanket statements such as "I do/don't support [whatever]" in most cases, because I think that absolutely every situation is different and sticking to pre-set rules when you deal with it isn't always successful. But on the whole, I am pro-choice and against the death penalty, if only because it seems to be the easy way out for some criminals.

Melonie Tomb Raider
15-01-07, 00:09
I support death penalty, but not abortion.

Draco
15-01-07, 06:43
You just can't decide whether other people can have children or not, you're in absolutely no position to do so. Having children is an inalienable right, it's part of everybody's utmost privacy. Invading that privacy is unimagineable if you believe in human dignity. IMO we can't afford not to.

The idea my reasoning is based on is not that someone can say you can or cannot have a child, but more that you have to want to have a child to have one under my system.

If you suddenly had to pay $250 to get a license to have children (and there were no ways to get extra help financially from the government whether you have children or not)...what do you think would happen?

JANKERSON
15-01-07, 07:00
If you suddenly had to pay $250 to get a license to have children (and there were no ways to get extra help financially from the government whether you have children or not)...what do you think would happen?

LOL

I would love to see that. :D

Shark_Blade
15-01-07, 07:35
Death penalty. Some people just deserve to die. No to abortion though. The babies should be given a chance to live. We are not the one to decide their future.

Spitfire
15-01-07, 08:10
Death penalty. Some people just deserve to die. No to abortion though. The babies should be given a chance to live. We are not the one to decide their future.
Some would argue giving birth is altering your future, you are able to decide that, are you not?

CerebralAssassin
15-01-07, 08:14
Death penalty. Some people just deserve to die. No to abortion though. The babies should be given a chance to live. We are not the one to decide their future.

NEWSFLASH:everybody's gonna die...that's exactly why we shouldn't send people to the electric chair!!:p

Spitfire
15-01-07, 08:16
There are far worse things than death, a full life sentence, not that 25-30 yrs to life crap, sounds like a much more deserving punishment than simple death with a last meal and wish.

Mona Sax
15-01-07, 10:03
If you suddenly had to pay $250 to get a license to have children (and there were no ways to get extra help financially from the government whether you have children or not)...what do you think would happen?
That would mean factually, it not legally, forbidding poor people to have children. No thanks.

Ward Dragon
15-01-07, 11:26
Generally I support the death penalty and I do not support abortion. I'm not particularly malicious, and I'm more concerned with ensuring criminals never hurt anyone else rather than with making them suffer. Death may be "the easy way out" for a murderer, but it's also the only way to ensure that the murderer will not murder anyone else. With a life sentence, there's always the chance of parole, or escape, or of the inmate murdering a prison guard. Then there's also the possibility that the criminal will direct underlings in committing crimes despite being in prison, or that the criminal will teach less violent offenders how to be truly vicious.

As for abortion, I don't support it but I don't actively oppose it either (at least the way I understand it as being legal only during the first five months of pregnancy or in a medical emergency). I consider partial birth abortion to be infanticide and I am 100% against that. I know that in some cases it's not possible to save both the mother and the fetus, so I absolutely support saving the mother. It's my understanding that after around 20 weeks of development, the fetus can feel pain, so I'm against abortion after that point (except for medical emergencies where the mother's life is in danger). Before that point, I'm sort of indifferent. I don't think I'd ever get an abortion myself, but I wouldn't forbid another woman from doing so. If she can accept killing her unborn child and can live with that, then it's her choice, not mine. I wouldn't force her to go through an extra 6 months of pregnancy if she was certain of her decision (if she wasn't certain, then I think she'd end up having a lot of problems in the long run, feeling guilty and wondering what could have been if she had decided differently).

Forwen
15-01-07, 17:14
I wonder why is that every time I ask someone who is for death penalty (talking in general) several questions like: how do they define a murderer? how many executions per country/state and per year do they think should be a norm? (<- that is the question especially for those who come up with "cutting the costs" argument. You really won't save much money on 17 people) does that apply to those who caused death indirectly, like gang leaders? people who intended to hurt, but not to killl? employers consciously overexploiting their workers? people drunk? drugged? mentally ill? would you condemn to death Rodion Raskolnikov (:D)? I usually don't get many coherent answers.

*sigh* And that is also why I'm jolly glad that justice is no more in hands of the mob these days -_-

RedTyga
15-01-07, 17:24
I don't support the death penalty and I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice.

Terminatorvs
15-01-07, 18:09
I support both.
The death penalty is a good thing - Really bad guys don't desrve to live and be supported during their "stay" in the jail - we're the ones who pay for that. I know from my own experience how hard it is to earn money. It's frustrating to know, that part of the money I earn is spent on supporting the criminals.
The abortions should also be allowed - what if the future parents know, that they won't be able to up-bring the child (because of different reasons), why should they be forced to condemn a child to a low-life existence?

Draco
15-01-07, 20:31
That would mean factually, it not legally, forbidding poor people to have children. No thanks.

Those same poor people don't seem to have trouble buying all sorts of nice things. Or did you mean the poor people that technically would be causing child abuse by having children?

ELEN
15-01-07, 20:38
I support abortion, but not the death penalty.

Regarding the first one, I just believe that you shouldn't make a child if you are not able to raise it.

I do not support death penalty. If someone made an equivalent crime, rotting in jail is worse.

Mona Sax
15-01-07, 21:25
Those same poor people don't seem to have trouble buying all sorts of nice things. Or did you mean the poor people that technically would be causing child abuse by having children?
So not being able to buy your kids the lastest fashion or videogame consoles = child abuse? Hardly. You're contradicting yourself anyway - if poor people actually could buy 'all sorts of nice things', there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Scottlee
15-01-07, 21:46
I support both...

Abortion
- Women (and men on this matter) make errors, especially when young. I don't think they should have to be parents forevermore on the back of a mistake with contraception. I know adoption exists in our world, but that's hard for kids to go through.
- Children aren't alive, not fully alive, when they're an embyro. Nobody remembers or is conscious of the fact they're in a womb. I don't have any memories of being under the age of two. If I'd been aborted, I doubt I would have felt a thing.

Death penalty
- I agree it should be brought back, but only sparingly. I particularly would have given it to those Asians who set a Scottish teenager on fire in a warehouse and left him to burn to death. That's heinous. Wipe them off the planet I say, and let them be grateful they can escape with a quick sharp electric shock instead of being brutally ignited themselves.
- You may think it's harder to live out a life in prison, but these days prison is not like it was in the 1800's. There are no longer balls and chains, and torture chambers, and bread and water for food. These days it's almost the life of riley. You get internet access, DVD players in your room, activity days, pool tables, cigs, social teams. In the case of the very small minority of evil people (see the Asian trio above), I wouldn't give them the chance of living a prison life and making buddies and reading up on the bible.

Geck-o-Lizard
15-01-07, 22:10
if poor people actually could buy 'all sorts of nice things', there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

A very large reason for why so many people are so poor is that they have extremely poor money-handling skills. That's why they go out and buy a 50" HD-TV and an Xbox 360 instead of keeping that cash aside to pay for bills, rent a better flat, pay off their debts, etc. The problem isn't whether they can afford the price or not, it's what they forfeit in order to be able to do so.

JamesFKirk
16-01-07, 00:04
I don't support either, with exception in some cases of abortion, like the pregnancy is thretening the mothers life. In other cases (like the child is unwanted), that's complicated... I know it will sound harsh, but there's still the possibility of adoption or "baby box" (I can explain in case it's "Czech only" term, don't know how's it called abroad)... At least, the child doesn't die.

Draco
16-01-07, 01:56
So not being able to buy your kids the lastest fashion or videogame consoles = child abuse? Hardly. You're contradicting yourself anyway - if poor people actually could buy 'all sorts of nice things', there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

I don't think you understand the problem.

lorien elf
16-01-07, 04:18
Yes but what if the person was innocent? Plus if the person was truly evil I would want to have them rot in a cell alone until they die.

I don't know that I believe in real innocence when it comes to humans, maybe when you're a helpless infant, it's different. but my cynical response to that is that human justice system sucks, that they have even a small percentage of those punished by the state suffering wrongfully, and dying when they weren't guilty of the crimes. Humans can't come up with enough fail safe programs, institutions, to keep that from happening, then maybe it's just better to allow people the one thing that they can do: kill one another. I'll bet you, it won't matter so much in the end. (and I don't mean to ignore the sorrow that the families can go through, though there is such a thing as revenge too).

I support both when they are used fairly and not used because the woman doesnt want a baby, or one person thinks another shouldn't live.

Right, my own ideas on it don't really make that much sense, kind of contradictory. Because I believe in God and what He says, and have the notion that He would value all human life and to Him our ideas about exceptions to the rule wouldn't matter, then I'd say that not one of us has any right to judge one of our own and decide that such a one has no right to live, least of all a baby that cannot speak for itself yet. But I agree, the abortion option should be used fairly, but in our evil world, I don't see that ever happening. If it's illegal, there will still be those clinics that service anyone who would come, and maybe not provide the best of care for the woman, or be that sanitary either. And then there are still those who would abuse it, using it as a form of contraceptive; if all else fails, right?, you can just kill the baby. Pregnancy's not like getting an illness, with an illness there's no last option, the person who has it is stuck with it for as long as he lives, but the killing of the baby is an easy way out for some, so it will always be a temptation.

[QUOTE=Mad Tony;1497499]
I support the death penalty because there are many prisons in the UK which treat the prisoners as if they're in a hotel.
And murderers have come out of prison and then re-offended.

I agree on that one. Some may say it's unfair, but just as has already been pointed out by others, I don't see how murdering someone is such a big deal, a bad thing, when one can also talk of how murdering a child is ok as well. It's still the same, whether you believe it's alive (as we are in the same sense able to feel, etc) or not. But I agree, the prisons only serve to provide the criminals interred there a second home. In our own state here, there was a legal issue brought to the local courts petitioning for the right to watch R rated movies (the criminals wanted to be able to do this). Big ****ing deal. They just wasted tax money on a trial just so that they could have the luxury of watching R rated movies. That goes back to the poor people thing, there are some I know of that can't afford to go to the movies every time they want to, but tax dollars (that even come out of a poor person's pay check) still go to the prison systems to pay for them to have such "luxuries" as cable and films-- I don't care if it's out of date or even is something the can only see on VHS rather than a DVD or Showtime, it's ridiculous. Prison isn't a punishment other than what your fellow prisoners will do to you, with internal alliances and even rapes.

She shouldn't have to be forced to take responsibility that she just can't handle and have her life potentially ruined, and likewise the child doesn't deserve to come into the world raised poorly by an unfit mother/parents or by the state without knowledge of his/her real parents.

That's the main reason that I'm still for abortion, because though spiritually it is wrong to support the murder of children, I still think it's better to have them die rather than doom them to a life of suffering, abuse, etc. If the mother's willing enough to kill her child (and there are some who just see the pregnancy as nothing more than an inconvenience), then she's not fit to be a mother, so go on and let her have her way. The problme with adoption is that some mothers end up changing their minds too, and thus screwing up their childrens' lives, with court battles, and maybe even taking them away from a good life that they might have had. Having a child isn't the same as picking a dress for the evening, or even whether or not to keep a family pet. It's a lifetime committment. Some just won't ever be prepared for that. And, not every kind of kid gets adopted, like ones with deformities or even slight "imperfections" and if it's white parents who have the money or whatever to adopt, they usually want the white kids, not the black ones or Asian or even Hispanic ones. So, it would seem that many would just grow up in orphanages, never knowing who their parents are and never even having a real family life. How could anyone just discard a child like that?

I support both, depending on the circumstances.

I support abortion. The baby might have to live with a condition or live in conditions that are going to prevent it from living a full, happy life. It might have been an unwanted pregnancy and the mother might simply not want a baby.

Yes, and there are so many parents who do awful things to their own children, or behave as if they aren't obliged to care for the children, and just leave them to their own devices, to take care of themselves. And often when a situation is bad for a kid, people on the outside looking on do nothing to help the child. See how effective those child services programs are, most of them just leave them with the abusive parents, maybe wanting to keep the families together, or there are no foster homes?

It may not be a particularly horrendous punishment, but most people don't really want to die. Who cares what they want. By adjusting their punishment to something that would be worse for them rather than something that will be most effective, we're acting like kids.

Death isn't a horrendous punishment, not always, but you've stated what I've come to believe, have believed for a while, that every human is afraid to die, at some point. Even if it's for a fraction of a second before he/she passes on, there's always that fear, of the unknown and what they'll be leaving behind. So, death is a real punishment, because they're all scared. I know I would be. You can be tough only to a certain point, but it happens to everyone. The crazy people might get by it, but they're just lucky enough to not be in their right minds at the time, otherwise, they'd be scared ****less too. Try comforting yourself if you want to that there's no hell, you'll still be scared to die, even if it's because you only had one chance at life and you blew it. And I agree about the being worse than kids part. Just be practical and get it over with. It's ridiculous to be talking about human rights too and what kind of humane treatment child molesters and serial killers (without a purpose) deserve when it comes to death. They'll get wha they deserve in the end. Hell or no hell. At least they can't be here anymore.

Death penalty: At least they're up against an something that gives criminals something to fear. Let's delve into a convict's mind: "Okay, I'm being sent to life in prison. That's not so bad. It'll be tough, but I'm okay with it. Besides, there's a chance that I could eventually escape!" Meanwhile, death is something to fear. However, it shouldn't get to how it was in the Victorian era, where a 13 year old boy stealing a spoon could almost certainly be hanged, yet despite it all, the streets are rife with crime.

So well-said, again the part about fearing death. I even realized, and have since found someone else saying the same thing since, that even atheists can at some point come to a very, very bad situation in their lives, maybe life-threatening, and having no way out actually call out to God to help them. Even if they say that He still may not be there, for them it could happen that there's no one else to save them, and what remains is the ingrained idea of a deity of some sort, so it's natural to appeal to that sort for aid. I don't mean to offend anyone here, just an example of how things can change on a person just when he thinks he's prepared. Life can be worse than death, but people are still afraid to die. There shouldn't really be a way to prepare for that kind of unknown. And, I so agree about the kid thing. They used to kill people for less in centuries past. heh, like killing the king's deer because you're desperate to find food for your starving family? :) :(

Not always. For a lot of the psychos who do enough to deserve having their head lopped off with a rusty saw, they don't fear death. Death is quick, and they know it. Much better than spending 70 years with Bubba.

People want quick deaths as they fear the pain they'll experience if the moment is drawn out, and though I agree with you about the kind of logic a person in that situation should use, I still say that it's most natural for a human to have an over-powering fear of death. No one (besides the religious but even they dont know what exactly will happen, going into the arms of Jesus or no? who's to say until it happens?) knows what's in store for him. So, though he might at first think he got the better deal, he wouldn't get off completely, because he'd have that moment of fear and he's either leaving a good life behind (maybe he was ok until he got caught) or he won't any longer be able to do what pleased him while he was alive (sorry for being graphic but an example: molesting children). Just get rid of those kinds of people.

I'd have them put to work. Get them doing the dangerous jobs that other people shouldn't have to do unless they want to, eg. military, nuclear waste monitoring, mining, oil rig maintenance... but without all the protective gear that's normally used.

Or they could be dropped into a mile-deep pit so the only way they could escape would be by escaping from their cells and climbing up the smooth concrete walls. Use robots & machines to monitor them, have food dropped down via a separate shaft and distributed mechanically, etc. Full sensory deprivation until they die.

Yeah, but our society is too imperfect. There are too many people out there who care about the humane treatment of even criminals, hence the reason why they get to live better lives than some people not in prison. It would never happen in any "civilized" country where people actually get that kind of deserved treatment. So, it's just better to kill them off, rather than give them the chance to find help on the outside that want to make their stay as comfortable as possible.


In regards to abortion, I support compulsive mass sterilization, after which abortion should be nearly never something to consider.

I didn't check where you're from but they've had cases of this, as you might have known, where the government, at least in the U.S., in the South, pre-civil rights days, actually tested that method on blacks and other marginalized peoples of society. Forced sterilization. Not fair, for many obvious reasons, besides, you never know what kind of child will come from what family. Heh, maybe it's better to not let wealthy people have kids, if their kids are just going to grow up spoiled, selfish and indifferent to the sufferings of others anyway. but from a crazy point of view, I could actually not object to that...

I find it humorous that more people support the death of a developing baby and not that of a criminal.

I support both, some people truely deserve to die. Abortion, there are numerous reasons why this can be a valuable option but i don't agree it should be used as a birth control.

Well-said.


If you suddenly had to pay $250 to get a license to have children (and there were no ways to get extra help financially from the government whether you have children or not)...what do you think would happen?

Dont mind that. Maybe other restrictions could be put into place too, since they have a license, maybe they can also be punished for bad parenting? And, though it's unfair, and society's loss for those who would have been great people but born to low-income families (can't recall names atm though), at least there's more assurance, most likely, that the children wont grow up hungry or lacking in other support.

Generally I support the death penalty and I do not support abortion. I'm not particularly malicious, and I'm more concerned with ensuring criminals never hurt anyone else rather than with making them suffer. Death may be "the easy way out" for a murderer, but it's also the only way to ensure that the murderer will not murder anyone else. With a life sentence, there's always the chance of parole, or escape, or of the inmate murdering a prison guard. Then there's also the possibility that the criminal will direct underlings in committing crimes despite being in prison, or that the criminal will teach less violent offenders how to be truly vicious.

As for abortion, I don't support it but I don't actively oppose it either (at least the way I understand it as being legal only during the first five months of pregnancy or in a medical emergency). I consider partial birth abortion to be infanticide and I am 100% against that. I know that in some cases it's not possible to save both the mother and the fetus, so I absolutely support saving the mother. It's my understanding that after around 20 weeks of development, the fetus can feel pain, so I'm against abortion after that point (except for medical emergencies where the mother's life is in danger). Before that point, I'm sort of indifferent. I don't think I'd ever get an abortion myself, but I wouldn't forbid another woman from doing so. If she can accept killing her unborn child and can live with that, then it's her choice, not mine. I wouldn't force her to go through an extra 6 months of pregnancy if she was certain of her decision (if she wasn't certain, then I think she'd end up having a lot of problems in the long run, feeling guilty and wondering what could have been if she had decided differently).

Well-said, and I agree with it all, especially about the nastiness of killing an infant too far into the pregnancy. And, I've read/been told about the kinds of dangers of getting an abortion anyway, as in if the fetus isn't fully removed, there's a risk of serious infection that could potentially kill the mother. so, it's not like she's not putting herself in harm's way either. and of course the part about the guilt and wondering what might have been, that's suffering enough, meaning that abortion isn't the easiest way out, much less the safest either. Pregnancy is more life-altering than an illness, or even career change, especially at a young age. So maybe it's better to still have that option open for the parent?

Those same poor people don't seem to have trouble buying all sorts of nice things. Or did you mean the poor people that technically would be causing child abuse by having children?

I guess what you're saying is, "if they're so poor, then why do or how can they buy all of those nice things? But they also can't support the children that they have... but I see your argument about it not being a qualified reason for aborting the children, simply because they aren't affordable? Makes enough sense that does.

I support both...

Abortion
- Women (and men on this matter) make errors, especially when young. I don't think they should have to be parents forevermore on the back of a mistake with contraception. I know adoption exists in our world, but that's hard for kids to go through.
- Children aren't alive, not fully alive, when they're an embyro. Nobody remembers or is conscious of the fact they're in a womb. I don't have any memories of being under the age of two. If I'd been aborted, I doubt I would have felt a thing.

Agreed with the first part, it's harsh but kinda true. And second, I believe they're alive, but once they're dead, they're dead. No more pain or sense of something going wrong. It's just the mother who has to suffer with her decision's consquences.

Death penalty
- I agree it should be brought back, but only sparingly. I particularly would have given it to those Asians who set a Scottish teenager on fire in a warehouse and left him to burn to death. That's heinous. Wipe them off the planet I say, and let them be grateful they can escape with a quick sharp electric shock instead of being brutally ignited themselves.
- You may think it's harder to live out a life in prison, but these days prison is not like it was in the 1800's. There are no longer balls and chains, and torture chambers, and bread and water for food. These days it's almost the life of riley. You get internet access, DVD players in your room, activity days, pool tables, cigs, social teams. In the case of the very small minority of evil people (see the Asian trio above), I wouldn't give them the chance of living a prison life and making buddies and reading up on the bible.

That's so terrible about the Scottish kid. And infuriating, seems that kind of deal happens in many places, where too many guilty parties just get off free, and the families who survive the victims have no choice but to just deal with the consequences. And, prison these days is much better for the criminals than it ever was. They get at least three square meals and even people who care about whether or not they get fresh air and exercise, etc.

A very large reason for why so many people are so poor is that they have extremely poor money-handling skills. That's why they go out and buy a 50" HD-TV and an Xbox 360 instead of keeping that cash aside to pay for bills, rent a better flat, pay off their debts, etc. The problem isn't whether they can afford the price or not, it's what they forfeit in order to be able to do so.

Poor people aren't the only ones who have poor decision-making skills when it comes to purchasing items that they want, over doing what is right and best for them in the long run. All humans have those urges and the desire to obtain that sense of instant gratification. Just some are better at beating that part of themselves and doing what is wise. And there are many in fact who have nice homes, cars and food on the table but are in debt. And some just have the right circumstances, make a few right moves occasionally and can amass great wealth by being at the top of a great chain, where all the profit eventually goes to them. They can spend like mad, giving into those urges and materialistic desires, only they have more money to play with (celebrites come to mind now, no offense, they just prove this with some shows that glorify that kind of lifestyle on tv). Though, I know that's not what you meant. It just sucks for the kids who are stuck in those kinds of situations, where their parents don't make good decisions but are still responsible for the children and the children in turn have little say in what happens to them on a daily basis; they just have to try and do their best to survive until they're old enough to break away. It's hard to say though, whether being poor or with irresponsible parents is a reason to end a life once it's started (I believe it's real from the moment of conception, since I believe in souls and all that).

ivannnnn
16-01-07, 08:18
i do agree of death penalty but abortion

Abortion means you kill your ownself baby,isn't it criminal? ;)

just croft
16-01-07, 12:14
I dont agree to both.... real simple...

In my country (Portugal) the is going to be a referendom (votation) next month or so (dont really know the date... I cant vote lol :P) to decide if it can be legal or not to Abort... In my opinion no cuz our law already sais that there can be and abortion if the baby has orgain malfuntions, so if if abortion is legalized I think that people ill be less carefull when it comes to have sex

Has for death penalty I also think its wrong.... its like if we descend to the same lvl as the people who are to be killed.

So, No & No, thanks!