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tlr online
01-04-07, 22:58
Iranian state television has aired new footage of two of the 15 Royal Navy personnel captured nine days ago. They were shown separately standing in front of a chart of the northern Gulf where the sailors and marines were seized on March 23.

One captive said Iranian maps showed the group was "inside Iranian territorial waters". The second said he understood why Iran was angry. The Foreign Office described showing the TV footage as "unacceptable".

Complete Story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6515995.stm)

I find the behaviour by Iran deplorable, and I think this reflects very poorly on the country; that troops can be taken hostage and then paraded on TV with trumped up charges like some kind of freak show.

Not to mention the "... death to Britain" chants by student supporters of the Iranian government.

What a pitiful, shameful day in Iran's history. I hope the UK is considering an armed response to this hostage crisis, because someone needs an ass-kicking.

Geck-o-Lizard
01-04-07, 23:08
It's as if they were looking for some excuse to pick a fight.

Forwen
01-04-07, 23:08
What a pitiful, shameful day in Iran's history. I hope the UK is considering an armed response to this hostage crisis, because someone needs an ass-kicking.

I'm not supporting an armed intervention only to make a point, but the lack of such after British MoD (or was it MoFA?) proved Iran wrong about the coordinates is quite a blow to UK's prestige. If Iran's intention all along was only to prove that UK are sissies, then they didn't really have to care where the hell the boat was in the end.

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:10
I'm not supporting an armed intervention only to make a point, but the lack of such after British MoD (or was it MoFA?) proved Iran wrong about the coordinates is quite a blow to UK's prestige. If Iran's intention all along was only to prove that UK are sissies, then they didn't really have to care where the hell the boat was in the end.
Yeah. I agree. Right now, Iran is making a mockery of the UK. But what do you expect with spineless Blair at the helm?

Forwen
01-04-07, 23:20
Yeah. I agree. Right now, Iran is making a mockery of the UK. But what do you expect with spineless Blair at the helm?

Me? Nothing. Who's moving in next though? Brown? Is he worth anything?

What really disappointed me personally was EU's response, although at that point I would've been rather naive to hope for more solidarity. I wish it the best and that's exactly why more diplomatic yapping, no matter how "strong" they think it is, saddens me - way to convince UK to work with it more closely in the future :rolleyes:

Agent 47
01-04-07, 23:20
nice attitude....like an armed response is going to make the situation better :mad:

just nuke the region and be done with it

*still awaiting WMD's to be found*

Eddie Haskell
01-04-07, 23:21
There's not much the UK can do about it though. Except maybe destroy some things with air strikes. Iran is a formidable adversary with unpredictable, fanatical leaders. Military answers in this case would be foolish. Air strikes btw would only make things much worse.

And btw, the US has a beefed up naval presence there. Who knows what's cooking.

Agent 47
01-04-07, 23:24
There's not much the UK can do about it though. Except maybe destroy some things with air strikes. Iran is a formidable adversary with unpredictable, fanatical leaders. Military answers in this case would be foolish. Air strikes btw would only make things much worse.

And btw, the US has a beefed up naval presence there. Who knows what's cooking.

been on the cards for awhile i think

first Iraq, now Iran

probably go for Korea next :mad:

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:24
And btw, the US has a beefed up naval presence there. Who knows what's cooking.

Yeah. I've just been discussing that with a friend on MSN. I definately think something is going down.

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:25
been on the cards for awhile i think

first Iraq, now Iran

probably go for Korea next :mad:

No. I don't think the U.S. will go for N. Korea, who has some pretty heavy backers. Bush only picks the fights he can win.

Forwen
01-04-07, 23:27
just nuke the region and be done with it

Yep, it's easy to call for the quickest answer with the assumption that we'll worry about the details later. I'm guilty of that as well. What else do you propose though, provided you care for the prestige damage? Last time I checked, the only alternative - to poke EU into sanctions - failed. And Iran doesn't really care for yapping, it's one of those regimes that need to feel consequences of real actions to reconsider their own.

Agent 47
01-04-07, 23:27
No. I don't think the U.S. will go for N. Korea, who has some pretty heavy backers. Bush only picks the fights he can win.

whoa!!!!

i've had that said to me before :eek:

but it's true, and we end up kissing ass and joining in too :(

@Forwen, you'll actually find i'm anti war, the comment you quoted was sarcasm

Eddie Haskell
01-04-07, 23:29
been on the cards for awhile i think

first Iraq, now Iran

probably go for Korea next :mad:

Well, I'm out of the action now, but I don't want any more of my buddies shot up. Bush is not that stupid...well...maybe...

Iran is not Iraq. Iran has a huge army, many would fight like the Japanese in WW2. Taking them on would be insane. We'd have to destroy the whole country.

Neteru
01-04-07, 23:30
I'm quite sure things are in the pipeline.

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:31
Yep, it's easy to call for the quickest answer with the assumption that we'll worry about the details later. I'm guilty of that as well. What else do you propose though, provided you care for the prestige damage? Last time I checked, the only alternative - to poke EU into sanctions - failed. And Iran doesn't really care for yapping, it's one of those regimes that need to feel consequences of real actions to reconsider their own.

I would have hoped for an armed recovery of our men and women, while at the same time taking out as many military targets over there as possible, to prevent this from happening again.

I suppose I'm in unfamiliar territory here. I don't believe we should be in Iraq anyways, and if we weren't there, then our forces wouldn't have been held hostage by Iran.

But since we are there, then that would be my response to this crisis.

Eddie Haskell
01-04-07, 23:32
I would have hoped for an armed recovery of our men and women, while at the same time taking out as many military targets over there as possible, to prevent this from happening again.

I suppose I'm in unfamiliar territory here. I don't believe we should be in Iraq anyways, and if we weren't there, then our forces wouldn't have been held hostage by Iran.

But since we are there, then that would be my response to this crisis.

Do the Brits still think Blair is Bush's puppy dog?

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:32
Iran is not Iraq. Iran has a huge army, many would fight like the Japanese in WW2. Taking them on would be insane. We'd have to destroy the whole country.

Are they that formidable over there? How did Saddam originally manage to hold them off? (with our help, I know.. but... )

Agent 47
01-04-07, 23:33
I would have hoped for an armed recovery of our men and women, while at the same time taking out as many military targets over there as possible, to prevent this from happening again.

I suppose I'm in unfamiliar territory here. I don't believe we should be in Iraq anyways, and if we weren't there, then our forces wouldn't have been held hostage by Iran.

But since we are there, then that would be my response to this crisis.

yeah! but are more needless deaths on all sides necessary :(

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:33
Do the Brits still think Blair is Bush's puppy dog?

Yes. We do. Absolutely, which is why we condemn Blair as well as Bush, for following suit.

What frustrates this county is that millions turned out to condemn the war, and we were all ignored.

andromeda_eats
01-04-07, 23:35
I would have hoped for an armed recovery of our men and women, while at the same time taking out as many military targets over there as possible, to prevent this from happening again.

I suppose I'm in unfamiliar territory here. I don't believe we should be in Iraq anyways, and if we weren't there, then our forces wouldn't have been held hostage by Iran.

But since we are there, then that would be my response to this crisis.

You are against the war in Iraq, but you think it would be a good idea to start one with Iran.

READ A DEFINITION OF HOSTAGE PLZ.

And just think, for one second, I know its hard. But consider that maybe, just maybe, the British were doing the wrong thing. Like perhaps, spying? I know its a shock, but your government does the wrong thing too some times.

AnthonyShock1515
01-04-07, 23:35
Oh dear. There was something about this in the paper on Thursday.:(


The leader needs bent over someones lap and given the spank treatment!:smk:

Eddie Haskell
01-04-07, 23:36
Are they that formidable over there? How did Saddam originally manage to hold them off? (with our help, I know.. but... )

Firepower and strategy pure and simple. The Iraqi's had vastly superior firepower thanks to us, and met the "human wave" assaults with less men and more bullets. The Iranians now have both numbers and firepower.

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:36
You are against the war in Iraq, but you think it would be a good idea to start one with Iran.

READ A DEFINITION OF HOSTAGE PLZ.

And just think, for one second, I know its hard. But consider that maybe, just maybe, the British were doing the wrong thing. Like perhaps, spying? I know its a shock, but your government does the wrong thing too some times.

I'm against an illegal war under false pretense. (Iraq)

I support the armed recovery of our hostages, however. (Iran)

Forwen
01-04-07, 23:36
What frustrates this county is that millions turned out to condemn the war, and we were all ignored.

Ah, another question for ya. How are the soldiers who went off to Iraq viewed in the UK?

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:38
Ah, another question for ya. How are the soldiers who went off to Iraq viewed in the UK?

Personally speaking, we have the same here as Eddie above. Soldiers are coming home injured, and leaving the military. But these guys were/are under orders, and I think anyone with at least some common sense cannot pin blame on them specifically.

Forwen
01-04-07, 23:39
And just think, for one second, I know its hard. But consider that maybe, just maybe, the British were doing the wrong thing. Like perhaps, spying? I know its a shock, but your government does the wrong thing too some times.

Oh. A brain instructor. And what about coordinates that were provided by the Iran twice - one time pointing to Iraqi waters, the other one already to their own?

andromeda_eats
01-04-07, 23:40
They Are Not Hostages.

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:41
They Are Not Hostages.
They were taken by force in Iraqi waters and are being held hostage in Iraq, and being paraded on TV as such too.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hostage

A person held by one party in a conflict as security that specified terms will be met by the opposing party.

Iran are demaning an apology. That is the "specified term" in this hostage situation.

Go back to being Yeats. ;)

AnthonyShock1515
01-04-07, 23:43
All this is to do with the one thing that is making the world so dangerous today

LAND

[OFFTOPIC] Btw TLR, one more post and you've hit 35,000;)

andromeda_eats
01-04-07, 23:43
Oh. A brain instructor. And what about coordinates that were provided by the Iran twice - one time pointing to Iraqi waters, the other one already to their own?


Its the Persian Gulf. Its a hotly contested ownership between Iran and Iraq. Its not as simple as two areas of water, one owned by Iraq and the other by Iran.

and tlr needs brain instructing.

Eddie Haskell
01-04-07, 23:43
They Are Not Hostages.

C'mon, this is another way to take the focus off of their nuclear program. If they get this capability, look out. It could get real ugly in a hurry.

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:44
All this is to do with the one thing that is making the world so dangerous today

LAND

[OFFTOPIC] Btw TLR, one more post and you've hit 35,000;)

Happy 35,000 to me. :jmp:

Forwen
01-04-07, 23:46
Iran are demaning an apology. That is the "specified term" in this hostage situation.

And considering that the third letter about forces' withdrawal from Iraq signed by Turney can't be in any way trusted to be her own, I say they're in diplomatic **** up to their necks when it comes to legal naming.

And whether it is or isn't her own simply can't be determined without any contact with the detainee.

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:47
And considering that the third letter about forces' withdrawal from Iraq signed by Turney can't be in any way trusted to be her own, I say they're in diplomatic **** up to their necks when it comes to legal naming.
I agree. It's television charades in Iran atm. I can't believe they think people are buying their ****.

AnthonyShock1515
01-04-07, 23:50
Congratualtions:) ^


It was in the papaer that a woman was forced to lie about how she was being treated, saying she was beiong fed well and had "constant supply of fluids".

Her family in Plymouth knew that she didnt look normal.

andromeda_eats
01-04-07, 23:50
They were taken by force in Iraqi waters and are being held hostage in Iraq, and being paraded on TV as such too.


They are claiming to have been treated well and kept comfortable. Iran wants an apology. So what?

The sailors patrolled (over six times) in an area that Iran claims to be their own. Those sailors would have know that they were trespassing, according to Iran law, regardless of what any other country thinks concering the body of water and its ownership. If Iran had done the same in British waters, we all know the same thing would have happened. It doesn't matter what they claim they were doing (something regarding Iraq, Im sure) if they entered an area that under Iran law was considering trespassing, then it is natural for them to be DETAINED until further legal action can be taken.

Just because they are British it does not mean they are exempt from another countrys legal system and laws. If you are a military force in another country, or in a territory claimed by another country, you run the risk of being detained under their laws.

Boohoo.

tlr online
01-04-07, 23:52
They are claiming to have been treated well and kept comfortable.

:hea:

andromeda_eats
01-04-07, 23:53
I cant believe this. People are SOOO willing to accept their own government and media version of the events, and accuse Iran's government of lying and their media of being inaccurate and corrupt.


NEWS ALERT: your media and government are full of **** too.

AnthonyShock1515
01-04-07, 23:59
Yes we know, but it's different when it's lives that are in the balance

andromeda_eats
02-04-07, 00:03
IRAN HAS NOT ISSUED A DEATH THREAT OR INDICATION THAT THE SAILORS WHO ARE BEING LEGALLY DEATAINED WILL BE HARMED OR KILLED.

HOW ARE THEIR LIVES AT STAKE??????

'just because they are arabs, they must want to kill all westerners!'

Geck-o-Lizard
02-04-07, 00:05
*ears ring*

Stop shouting plz?

Forwen
02-04-07, 00:07
The sailors patrolled (over six times) in an area that Iran claims to be their own. Those sailors would have know that they were trespassing, according to Iran law, regardless of what any other country thinks concering the body of water and its ownership.

Can you give me links to that specific Iranian law? Iranian waters extend 12 nautical miles from the shore, that much is certain. UK claim to have disproven the version of Iran based on first coordinates they provided, which they then swapped. So who's lying? "Media" again?

AnthonyShock1515
02-04-07, 00:08
I'm not saying that they are bound to die. But people being in that sort of situation are bound to wonder if they are going to see their families again.

I'm not insulting you or Iran, my uncle is Iranian so I don't have any sort of vendetta against their culture. So there isn't any need to lose your temper (and typing in caps will not emphasize your point.)

If you want to discuss you have to stay calm, if you lose your temper, you lose the debate.

tlr online
02-04-07, 00:10
IRAN HAS NOT ISSUED A DEATH THREAT OR INDICATION THAT THE SAILORS WHO ARE BEING LEGALLY DEATAINED WILL BE HARMED OR KILLED.

HOW ARE THEIR LIVES AT STAKE??????

'just because they are arabs, they must want to kill all westerners!'

How do you justify the ".. death to Britain" chants we heard today? Is this sane behaviour IYO?

andromeda_eats
02-04-07, 00:13
Can you give me links to that specific Iranian law? Iranian waters extend 12 nautical miles from the shore, that much is certain. UK claim to have disproven the version of Iran based on first coordinates they provided, which they then swapped. So who's lying? "Media" again?

How would i know the specific law? You dont need to read it. Its common knowledge that if someone enters a countries water, land or air space with unknown intentions the country has a law to detain them. its like illegal immigrants, you cant enter, or fly over or be in the waters of a country without the governments permission. How hard is that to understand?

and how do i know who is lying? UK media favours UK opinion and Iran favours Iran opinion. No one as of yet has clarified the truth or it would have been resolved already.

AnthonyShock1515
02-04-07, 00:15
Whoever entered who's water (the idea of owning water is rediculous btw) the most wise way for both parties to get past this is to negotiate.

andromeda_eats
02-04-07, 00:16
How do you justify the ".. death to Britain" chants we heard today? Is this sane behaviour IYO?

because.... the actions of a handful of radical Iranian students represent the entire Iran population attitude? Anything that encourages death to anyone is insane in my opinion. But its called a minority extremist group, thats what the media does, inflate extreme opinions.

Ill draw an obvious parallel: War supporters in Britain. Does that support your personal opinion? Is that sane behaviour? Does it matter, really, to the course of events in Iraq?

AnthonyShock1515
02-04-07, 00:17
because.... the actions of a handful of radical Iranian students represent the entire Iran population attitude?

No, but it does indicate that they have a sterotypical image of British people.

tlr online
02-04-07, 00:17
But its called a minority extremist group, thats what the media does, inflate extreme opinions.

Really? Many experts over here reckon that demonstration was stoked by the Iranian government.

andromeda_eats
02-04-07, 00:17
Whoever entered who's water (the idea of owning water is rediculous btw) the most wise way for both parties to get past this is to negotiate.

I completly agree with the second half of your statement. I disagree with tlr's trigger happy attitude, thus my inclusion in this debate.

tlr online
02-04-07, 00:19
I disagree with tlr's trigger happy attitude, thus my inclusion in this debate.

Nah. This has nothing to do with my statement that we should recover our soldiers using force, and you know it. :) Don't insult my intelligence, and the blissful ignorance of our members, by claiming it does. :wve:

andromeda_eats
02-04-07, 00:21
I actually dont know what you are talking about. PM plz.

IMO taking back the soliders by force and taking out other military targets while you are there before considering other options is trigger happy.

Eddie Haskell
02-04-07, 00:21
because.... the actions of a handful of radical Iranian students represent the entire Iran population attitude? Anything that encourages death to anyone is insane in my opinion. But its called a minority extremist group, thats what the media does, inflate extreme opinions.

Ill draw an obvious parallel: War supporters in Britain. Does that support your personal opinion? Is that sane behaviour? Does it matter, really, to the course of events in Iraq?

That "handful of radical Iranian students" mirrors their radical Islamic leadership. Their entire agenda has yet to be fully determined, but we know it includes their own nuclear capability. Iran will not be invaded or attacked unless it is supported by most of the UN, but at the very least supported by NATO. If this is what happens, Iran will escalate it a truly scary level, and who knows what happens after that. We will win in the end, but at what cost.

Forwen
02-04-07, 00:23
How would i know the specific law? You dont need to read it. Its common knowledge that if someone enters a countries water, land or air space with unknown intentions the country has a law to detain them. its like illegal immigrants, you cant enter, or fly over or be in the waters of a country without the governments permission. How hard is that to understand?

I'll make it easier for you. How do Iranian media support the legality of detention? I understand they must repel UK claims somehow.

and how do i know who is lying? UK media favours UK opinion and Iran favours Iran opinion. No one as of yet has clarified the truth or it would have been resolved already.

That would be too beautiful to be true. No one is going to prove "truth" unless a neutral state steps in as a mediator, and that's not gonna happen.

andromeda_eats
02-04-07, 00:25
I said that the opinions of Iranian radical students does not represent the entire population that tlr generalised to regarding this situation. Dont generalise my claims to represent some opinion of Iran;s government and nuclear policy.

andromeda_eats
02-04-07, 00:28
I'll make it easier for you. How do Iranian media support the legality of detention? I understand they must repel UK claims somehow.

So before I was too sarcastic to tlr, but now it's okay for you to be? Visit the IRNA if you want to know for yourself.

AnthonyShock1515
02-04-07, 00:29
Until we have reliable evidence on the placement of the soldier at that time, if they were in Iranian waters or not, there's no point in argueing who's right. Nobody is ATM, we are both arguing for 2 different media sources which are likely to be biased.

So for now all we can do is wait for the sufficient, reliable evidence and negotiate all we can.

Forwen
02-04-07, 00:35
So before I was too sarcastic to tlr, but now it's okay for you to be?

Just repelling, just repelling :wve: You're right, I'll keep an eye on IRNA. Especially on whether and how it addressed the swapped coordinates matter, which is, in my opinion, the most important part of this fracas (I just love this word) as far as solid facts are concerned.

Draco
02-04-07, 03:26
I for one don't expect the US to stand idly by while Allied Personnel are being detained.

As for picking the fights he can win...wouldn't that make Bush smart?

Clara [CA]
02-04-07, 07:56
I said that the opinions of Iranian radical students does not represent the entire population that tlr generalised to regarding this situation.

OK, but these opinions were recorded in Iran, right ? I mean if we saw them on TV, it's because those videos passed censorship. So whose opinion is that ? Somebody chose them to represent the opinion of Iranian people. Sure, the entire population isn't thinking like that and sure, media do emphasize extreme attitudes, but this wasn't fake though. :o

Paul H
02-04-07, 15:50
How many lies does Tony Blair have to tell before people will stop believing him? That man is the biggest liar on the planet - yes, even worse than Bush. Nothing that he, or anyone associated with him, ever says should ever be believed by anyone.

Those co-ordinates and that map purporting to show that the sailors were in Iraqi waters, were faked. See here. (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/newscomment.html?in_article_id=445896&in_page_id=1787)

Legend of Lara
02-04-07, 15:52
Those *******s! :mad:
I stand by the UK's side at all times! :mad: