View Full Version : Replacing the London symphony orchestra with one man and an electronic keyboard.
illuminati30
18-05-07, 15:44
This is one thing i do not like about Anniversary! How can they justify this?
It was only Troels and his keyboard for Legend as well. As long as the music is good, sounds good and flows with the game I couldn't care less where it comes from whether that be a whole orchestra or one man and his technology to make it sound like an orchestra.
An orchestra does have more class though :D.
I suppose £ido$ just decided, "Too much money".
I suppose Ģido$ just decided, "Too much money".
Well they are a business after all.
they can't justify it gamereactor in denmark said it was the worst part of the game if i remember correctly, they also said it didn't need any new soundtrack and the old ones were good and that troels composed some new tracks that didn't give the right TR feeling. a shame if you ask me
they can't justify it gamereactor in denmark said it was the worst part of the game if i remember correctly, they also said it didn't need any new soundtrack and the old ones were good and that troels composed some new tracks that didn't give the right TR feeling. a shame if you ask me
Well according to this thread here: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=95121
The Music is one of the best things about it.
Well it's been 10 years since Tomb Raider 1, technology has advanced a lot.
Why pay a whole orchestra when one man can do the job justice.
Sara Croft
18-05-07, 15:53
I adore AoD, and its music.
Troel is good, but i guess the orchestra would be very expensive, but you really notice it! :hug:
But i must admit that TR:A has wonderful music! :tmb:
Also.. LMAO at the title, sounds very depressing:vlol:
illuminati30
18-05-07, 15:55
It is just a shame they could not go for it fully with anniversary.
The electronic music is OK, but music from instruments tells a thousands stories, as each man made instruments strums out the stories of it's life, and each player uses it to channel their energies thoughts and feels!
It is just a shame, as this was one of the best things about Tomb Raider, and i actually became a fan of classical music because of it.
Good Bye to such things as the Venice Violins!
Well it's been 10 years since Tomb Raider 1, technology has advanced a lot.
Why pay a whole orchestra when one man can do the job justice.
Not that much. PC sounds will never replace the real thing!
Tthe Spirit
18-05-07, 16:00
Well, he is so great and if he just did that with a keyboard then he is the greatest composer of all..
i mean legend had the greatest OST of all times...
TRL soundtrack has the ability to compete with blockbuster movies...
dragoness_crysta
18-05-07, 16:00
Oh come on the music is wonderful....it would be more classy to take an orchestra, but since the keyboards are more than sufficient....why bother?
SpencerYarman
18-05-07, 16:02
I'm shocked, I thought the music in Legend was great, and what I've heard from Anniversary is equal, if not better because its adhering so closely to the original.
If you can get the same orchestral sounds with synthesizers, and one persons effort, whats the hangup?
Staying true to the original
:D
illuminati30
18-05-07, 16:07
Well i have not seen many in game videos, to hear the music. I have heard only the main theme, and the action music when you fight an enemy. I have to say i was not impressed!
it is just a shame, as it was always impressive to think of an entire orchestra making the music, and not any old one, the London Symphony Orchestr!. That is worthy of movie sound track! :tmb:
As far as games are concerned I definitely prefer electronic music. Instrumental scores for games almost always sound the same in terms of atmosphere. Same instruments, same pace - AOD is a prime example of this. This thing had no distinctiveness at all.
But that doesn't mean that with electronics you can't go wrong with the atmosphere either - and guess what, Legend is a prime example of this.
This is one thing i do not like about Anniversary! How can they justify this?
I game doesn't need a huge orchestra to be a huge hit. The music in Legend was fantastic and the music in anniversary sounds very good as well.
It doesn't always have to take a large amount of people to make a masterpiece.
It is just a shame they could not go for it fully with anniversary.
The electronic music is OK, but music from instruments tells a thousands stories, as each man made instruments strums out the stories of it's life, and each player uses it to channel their energies thoughts and feels!
It is just a shame, as this was one of the best things about Tomb Raider, and i actually became a fan of classical music because of it.
Good Bye to such things as the Venice Violins!
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't music for TR 1-5 created without an orchestra? AOD had one but I didn't think that was the case with the other titles.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't music for TR 1-5 created without an orchestra? AOD had one but I didn't think that was the case with the other titles.
yes that is correct. The original TR1 theme beats anything in angel of darkness.
Shark_Blade
18-05-07, 17:08
Well it's been 10 years since Tomb Raider 1, technology has advanced a lot.
Why pay a whole orchestra when one man can do the job justice.
I'm sure you've heard the original tune, mitch. It's so much better than AE's because of the orchestra. I seem to remember you're the one who complained long ago there's no orchestra haunting as the theme song was released?
Anyway, can we even change the music file for PC and replace it with tr1 theme?That'll be delightfulXD
I hate the fact that the music is all done with keyboards and synthesizers and crap. I like keyboards and stuff, but when the whole thing is done on it, it's just far too bland. Troels is a talented guy obviously, but there's just not enough oomph. Because the music just does not have the same impact as it did in previous games. The music in TRL may not be bad, but it's so forgettable which is just as bad. But think back, the music is so powerful in TR1-TR6. The screams of a violin as you dodge lions and tigers and bears, oh my! Or jumping spike pits while avoiding bolders and a thunderous drum beat has your heat racing...I don't want to hear Enya-esque, Tesco bloody music while chasing trucks through a desert on a motorbike. :mad:
I take the music in Tomb Raider very seriously and I wish Eidos did too. So far the pieces shown so far are okay, but nothing on the originals. They're too polished and modernised where as the originals kept the pace going at the correct times and had a raw quality that just didn't exist in games. The best thing Eidos ever did was have the London Symphony Orchestra score the Angel of Darkness. If you read any AOD review, you'll see the game may have gotten crappy scores but even the hardest to please critics praised it for it's incredible music.
Hopefully, TRA will prove me wrong but I doubt it from what I've heard. Again it's not bad music, it's just not a patch on the first six games, still sounds better than Legend's.
Maybe in TR8....
two resons
CD doesn have that CORE touch :(
TR1 music wasnt created by LSO
One man vs an orchestra? Whatever: quantity != quality.
It doesn't help that I'm weary of orchestral music in games, since, while it sounds great when done right, 90% of the time it's horribly generic.
It's not a shame that it's a one-man band.It's a shame the feeling didn't remain the same (from what I've listened so far).
I don't want good music.If I wanted good music I'd buy a record.
I want good TR music!Music and level design made the game for me all those years ago.
Eh, an orchestra is just a bunch of instruments recorded at one. What difference does it make if this guy records them all seperatly and puts them together? Its all electronic yeah, not real instruments, but you cant hear any difference except perhaps a clearer sound on the electronic one.
Shark_Blade
18-05-07, 18:35
I mean the orchestra real people's haunting voice in tr1...it should be in the ae but no use crying over spilled milk now,is it? :(
I adore AoD, and its music.
Troel is good, but i guess the orchestra would be very expensive, but you really notice it! :hug:
But i must admit that TR:A has wonderful music! :tmb:
Also.. LMAO at the title, sounds very depressing:vlol:
Ditto - I love the main theme for AOD - there is a bit towards the end where there is a crescendo thing going on and you can hear all the instruments playing together and getting louder before it goes quieter again. It sounds like the music should belong in a cinema movie.:jmp: If only AOD gameplay was as exciting as the music.
Anyway, I really like the TRA music, so I guess at the end of the day, I'm happy.
I'm sure you've heard the original tune, mitch. It's so much better than AE's because of the orchestra. I seem to remember you're the one who complained long ago there's no orchestra haunting as the theme song was released?
I actually really like the new theme, It's like they've kept the original theme which we all love, just added to it and made it more modern and upto date.
Don't really remember me complaining about the theme song when it was released though? :confused: In fact i remember me downloading it and being really impressed with it. =/
well I think he's doing a terrific job!:)
Shark_Blade
18-05-07, 19:08
I actually really like the new theme, It's like they've kept the original theme which we all love, just added to it and made it more modern and upto date.
Don't really remember me complaining about the theme song when it was released though? :confused: In fact i remember me downloading it and being really impressed with it. =/
Maybe I was thinking someone else:p If that's the case, I'm sorry.:D
Anyway I realize the ae theme is just nice. It's no masterpiece like the original, but still have the nostalgic sounds in it. Pretty much still worth it imo:tmb::)
most people will happily accept this, it's rubbish but heh.
Zelda has a similar issue but the game is still great.
But TR just keeps getting cheaper, too many compromises.
Eh, an orchestra is just a bunch of instruments recorded at one. What difference does it make if this guy records them all seperatly and puts them together? Its all electronic yeah, not real instruments, but you cant hear any difference except perhaps a clearer sound on the electronic one.
that is the most ignorant thing I've read in a while: you play an instrument? :(
But TR just keeps getting cheaper, too many compromises.Actually, it's way more expensive. It takes a lot more man hours to make models, textures, levels, animations, shaders (which they didn't even have back then), physics (didn't really have that either), AI (they did, but it was really bad), and levels, than it ever did 10 years ago.
Ward Dragon
18-05-07, 19:46
Actually, it's way more expensive. It takes a lot more man hours to make models, textures, levels, animations, shaders (which they didn't even have back then), physics (didn't really have that either), AI (they did, but it was really bad), and levels, than it ever did 10 years ago.
And yet the game of 10 years ago captivated me far more than the new ones :whi:
Anyhow, when I'm playing a game I judge the music based upon how much I enjoy it. The music from TR1-6 and Legacy of Kain were pure genius. I don't know how many people were involved in the music for each game (aside from that the London Symphony Orchestra did AOD) and I don't really care as long as the music fits the game and sounds wonderful. I can't really remember any of the music from Legend, but then again I can't even really remember any of the levels too well either. What I've heard of the TRA music sounds good, except I wish the theme song had the chanting in it like the original. Anyhow, what I'm getting at is that maybe with a much better game and much more inspired levels, the music will have something good to live up to and so Troels will do a better job when he's got something better to design his music for:)
mister_croft
18-05-07, 19:57
How come?
Can he do singing people with his keyboard?/
Besides, he may be just composing on the keybord and then there is a proper recording, and if sound good ... how cares?
One man vs an orchestra? Whatever: quantity != quality.
Enough said, really. I think the music in all the games has been lovely, and Troels has gained substantial recognition for his work. I think a lot of people just get hung up on the connotations associated with "orchestra" and completely ignore the fact that one man with a keyboard can produce some good tunes.
(Just to cover my ass: I'm not saying that tastes don't differ. Obviously some people just aren't going to like certain things regardless of the words used to describe it.)
Shark_Blade
18-05-07, 20:18
I'm listening to the tune now. :) AE tune that is.
The beginnning is good and nostalgic....until it reaches 0.43. It feels like you're walking in a park(my what lovely wheather we're having) and not like you're in an isloated location,lonely and overwhelming(that rush feeling and oh.., that intoxicating chants).
Only TR lover
18-05-07, 20:18
AoD had great soundtrack!
... Symhpony orchestra shouldn't be replaced by keyboard :rolleyes:
We shall c how it all turns out in two weeks aye! :D
The fact that the music in TRA is amazing makes this argument a little flimsy haha :)
Uh... hello? We seem to be having a huge misunderstanding here. The old series did not have orchestral music, I repeat, original TRs did not contain instrumental scores. Not even the holy untouchable cherished classic TR1 tune. It was only AOD! I see it's hard, but please keep your head cool when bashing CD and try to remember to do so based on facts.
Boo!
Tomb Raider I-III
Meode's success has allowed them to expand their studio setup over the years, and most of their recent projects, including Tomb Raider, have been done using Roland JV-series modules: "I got hold of a JV1080 with an Orchestra I expansion board in it, and that is brilliant. It did the bulk of the work. I've since got an Orchestra II board which is better still. I also added a JV90, which is like a keyboard version of the 1080, and I put an orchestral board into that as well."
[...]
The need to create orchestral music on a budget has forced Nathan and Matt to find ways of overcoming some of the inherent limitations of samplers and synths compared to real orchestral instruments. "It helps if you understand the instruments in the orchestra," explains Nathan. "For example, a flute player needs to breathe, so it's no good writing long passages with no breaks. You can also sample a breath and place that in the gaps, which I've done in some of my work for Core. There was a choral part where I added breathing between phrases -- I sampled myself breathing eight times, then doubled that up to get the right effect."
Matt adds: "I think we improved the sound in Tomb Raider III compared to I and II, because I was able to take the responsibility for sound quality and for the placing of sound effects away from Nathan, allowing him to concentrate on writing the music. We also panned each instrument in accordance with a traditional orchestral layout relative to the conductor/listener, giving it added authenticity."
Source (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may00/articles/tomb.htm?print=yes). There are also a few other obvious statements scattered across this text. As for
TRLR-TRC
The Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness soundtrack is the first time he’s [Peter Connelly] composed to the rules of an orchestra – instrument note ranges and number of players in each instrument group. He selected the oboe, core anglais, harp and flute to represent Lara.
Can't provide the link 'cause I' understand the site is evil.
It doesn't help that I'm weary of orchestral music in games, since, while it sounds great when done right, 90% of the time it's horribly generic.
That's exactly what I was trying to say. The industry simply hasn't got enough money yet to pull a Hollywood, or can't be bothered to spend it. I definitely respect orchestral music more, but most of instrumental game scores nowadays sound simply poor.
silver_wolf
19-05-07, 01:55
It was only Troels and his keyboard for Legend as well. As long as the music is good, sounds good and flows with the game I couldn't care less where it comes from whether that be a whole orchestra or one man and his technology to make it sound like an orchestra.
couldnt agree more!
they can't justify it gamereactor in denmark said it was the worst part of the game if i remember correctly, they also said it didn't need any new soundtrack and the old ones were good and that troels composed some new tracks that didn't give the right TR feeling. a shame if you ask me
I find that hard to believe, the music is brilliant and has been praised in almost every review.
This is one thing i do not like about Anniversary! How can they justify this?
So? We got the London symphony orchestra for one game, AOD and all of a sudden you think we should have it all the time. One game does not a tradition make, especially when it was AOD, Troels did fine with Legend and the work he has done with Anniversary is fantastic, these days it is hardly necessary to pay a small fortune for an orchestra when a professional can do just as good a job with a keyboard.
This is one thing i do not like about Anniversary! How can they justify this?
They can justify it to me. Employing an orchestra to make a soundtrack takes a lot of money and time. Employing the talented Mr. Folmann does otherwise. But in both cases, the music is fantastic. Moreover, I actually think that the guy with the electronic keyboard does a better job at it. That's justification enough.
As far as games are concerned I definitely prefer electronic music. Instrumental scores for games almost always sound the same in terms of atmosphere. Same instruments, same pace - AOD is a prime example of this. This thing had no distinctiveness at all.
Electronics are no more distinct. Theres just good musicians and bad ones!
Electronics are no more distinct. Theres just good musicians and bad ones!
Noble, but in the background there's also a big selection of available sounds and a small one. Most of instrumental game soundtracks, as I hear them, are performed by relatively small orchestras as compared to film OSTs. The publishers apparently can't be arsed to pay for bigger ones.
Does it influence the quality? Of course it does. Nowadays you can digitally imitate any sound; with an orchestra, you're stuck with what you've got, and many games haven't got much.
I've seen a couple people complain that the only reason this was happening is because "Eido$" wanted to save money, come on people it's a BUSINESS, why would they go and hire an orchestra if they could get equal results in half the time and price (if not a larger fraction). :p
fondantcookie
19-05-07, 09:59
Well it's been 10 years since Tomb Raider 1, technology has advanced a lot.
Why pay a whole orchestra when one man can do the job justice.
Thats the thing.... He can't !
:wve:
Digital music can fully adjust to the enviroment in the game. The music will change depending on where you are and what you are doing. It will make the music a part of the game itself and not just background.
And if paying a whole orchestra means you get bad music like in AOD, it's a waste of time and money.
Thats the thing.... He can't !
:wve:
The original never had an orchestra and you liked that well enough l assume, as well as the following 4 games. The problem here is peoples misconceptions, you hear it is digital and you do not even bother to listen to the music. They tell you nothing and you just assume it is an orchestra even when it is still made by one person on a keyboard
fondantcookie
19-05-07, 10:41
The original never had an orchestra and you liked that well enough l assume, as well as the following 4 games. The problem here is peoples misconceptions, you hear it is digital and you do not even bother to listen to the music. They tell you nothing and you just assume it is an orchestra even when it is still made by one person on a keyboard
Yep !
To be honest, I just disliked the overall feel of the music in Legend (besides a few tracks), and as such, I have based all of my reasoning on that fact.
I also dislike what troels has done with the AE theme. However, Peru Serenity and some others are stunning...so the jury is still out.
TR1, although 'not and orchestra', was composed (as far as I recall) to some extent using various flutes, harps etc....and wasn't simply composed on a keyboard. And the originals music was superb !
I just feel like Troels doesn't seem to understand the notion that 'less-is-more' when it comes to TR....
And as for AOD. Yes it had the London Symphony Orchestra. And yes it sounded phenomenal. Theres just something about its soundtrack that makes it feel grand and EPIC !!!
As I said, i'll judge Troels again once I've played AE. But as it stands, based on Legend, I dislike his style. And I would happy to see an AOD-style score/orchestra combination implemented again in a future TR :D
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