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View Full Version : The Cistern... DISAPPEARED?


danitiwa
16-06-07, 11:55
Not entirely, but they connected it to tomb of tihocan? :S I'm a bit confused here...

Lol, when I came in and heard Pierre talk I thought it was the crocodile, I'm like WTF... Talking Crocs? :vlol:

Still, I'm a bit disappointed that CD shortened a lot of the levels to such an extent.

Rivendell
16-06-07, 11:57
The Tomb of Tihocan is the most reduced level I think :(

But what they did to Atlantis was borderline blasphemy!

Marija_Croft
16-06-07, 11:57
It's stupid.I never played TR1,but I think if they separated the Cistern and the Tomb of Tihocan levels the game would be bigger,and more interesting to play.

scion05
16-06-07, 12:00
The Tomb of Tihocan is the most reduced level I think :(

But what they did to Atlantis was borderline blasphemy!

The whole " Lost Island " sucked ass anyway.

Pablo.CT
16-06-07, 12:00
When I actually play TRA now, I dont compare it to the original, I compare it to Legend. Anniversary is a great Tomb Raider game in its own right, without the back-up of TR1. The editing of the levels have been done for a reason, maybe because of deadlines to meet, or they wanted to expand other area's, Maybe to make the game more coherent, I really doubt that they cut it because they couldnt be bothered.

In comparison to Legend, Anniversary is a massive improvement. We all knew that it wasnt going to beat the Original, mainly because it IS the original.
Like I said before, Anniversary is an excellent TR in its own right, and I wasnt really that disappointed that some of the levels had been cut, because the rest of the game, or the area's that where included, were so immersive.

Rivendell
16-06-07, 12:02
It's stupid.I never played TR1,but I think if they separated the Cistern and the Tomb of Tihocan levels the game would be bigger,and more interesting to play.

Indeed :tmb:

Here's my thought on the matter - they're still too cautious about game length.
By the time we get to the Cistern, we've done and seen a lot of Greece. I can just imagine CD thinking "Oh heck, people might be getting bored by now, maybe we should just combine these two levels, take out a massive load and just end it so we can get to Egypt quicker?"

People don't get bored as easily as they think! (Lol, if they think that way, it could be for completely different reasons. Maybe they just didn't like it..)

scion05
16-06-07, 12:03
Well greece was quite boring lol! So maybe they were right too :)

Pablo.CT
16-06-07, 12:04
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:

Rivendell
16-06-07, 12:07
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:

*Rubs eyes in disbelief* There we go then, we're all complete and utter dumbasses.

Phlip
16-06-07, 12:09
Sorry but this would NOT have happened in Cores game. :rolleyes:

Nice avRiv!

scion05
16-06-07, 12:10
Lol, i can't believe that either :yik:
Saying that, i used the walkthrough quite a bit, especially
in the ugly bits.

bbk
16-06-07, 12:11
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:

That's a pretty stupid justification...are they saying people, as a whole, are getting more stupid? Especially given TRA's target audience (mostly people who played TR1) I think they would have been safe assuming they could do anything as complicated as TR1...

That said, I didn't mind the way it panned out in TRA too much...besides the random placement of the tomb. They had the cistern, which was ornately decorated, then you go into a random featureless cave all of a sudden...not to mention the apparent direct connection between the cistern and the cave, which brings up OH&S concerns...:ton:

Pablo.CT
16-06-07, 12:14
I would of liked the TOT level to of returned in full, because I prefered that to the Cistern in TR1. However I was happy with what we got :)

Dingaling
16-06-07, 12:15
I have to say this is probably one thing where lack of time could have been attributed to areas being cut down along with other reasons. You have to remember they had just over a year to make this including all the story revisions and pre-production work. I mean it took them 3 year to make Legend (and I doubt it took them two years with pre-production work). They had a template to work with but it's still gonna take time to update that template.

Also, I never liked the Cistern anyway so I was quite happy to see most of it gone :p. Although I do think it should have been included in full, it did have its moments.

scion05
16-06-07, 12:16
I would of liked the TOT level to of returned in full, because I prefered that to the Cistern in TR1. However I was happy with what we got :)

So did i. I always considered the cistern a pain in the behind, yet i loved the tomb of tihocan :)

Sara Croft
16-06-07, 12:19
It didnt bother me that much, but they erally did cut the level alot.

Blackmoor
16-06-07, 12:19
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:Maybe they have a point, I don't know. But another option for them is to make the Easy option easier. They could put the answers in Lara's journal for people who can't think.

I'm not being funny but why should we have to have a game built around an IQ 90 level of thinking just because that's the average for the population? They already made TV an IQ 90 activity, and look what that looks like. :rolleyes:

The last thing I'd want to aim my game (or book or film, etc) at if I was creating something would be middling IQ. *sigh*

fondantcookie
16-06-07, 12:25
The whole " Lost Island " sucked ass anyway.

The feeling i get is that they ran out of time... plain and simple....

And to be honest, thats a **** excuse...

"Lost Island" is DIRE in comparrison to the original... Short, easy, repetitive...

And it seems they didn't actually 'reimagine' any key "memorable" areas and infact just butchered it ! :wve:

danitiwa
16-06-07, 12:36
*Rubs eyes in disbelief* There we go then, we're all complete and utter dumbasses.

Yeah, I also get that idea sometimes. :vlol: So we're not any smarter 10 years after 199??? :p

Laras Backpack
16-06-07, 12:43
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:

I haven't listened to the commentaries in the Cistern yet so thanks for recalling that. :)

Aww... :( Too confusing for modern games? What an insult to 'modern gamers'! I know it wasn't meant that way and CD mean no disrespect to people, but IMHO individuals are only capable of doing less or understanding less if the world around them doesn't challenge them to meet their full potential. Treat people like dumb asses and you'll get a nation of dumb asses, and this goes for everything, not just the entertainment industry.

It's a hard balancing act to make something both entertaining and fun but also challenging. Challenge involves frustration and this can affect the enjoyment of a game for some people if it's over done. But without challenge and frustration there is less feeling of accomplishment once your goals are met. *sigh*

I do understand CD's dilemma, but to simply 'redux' something because you think it's too complicated is a bit lazy IMHO. Why not try to adapt it or add to it to make it more accessable to modern players but to also prevent it from losing its integrity. As someone said- have better hints in Lara's journal! Provide a map for those playing on easy mode or something.

MiCkiZ88
16-06-07, 13:01
Yeah, I also get that idea sometimes. :vlol: So we're not any smarter 10 years after 199??? :p

Nah.. we've just gotten more dumb. They might think.. :pi: I'm a freaking ''casual gamer'' and the levels were easy! Sure.. ''modern'' gamers don't understand anything. Yea right :rolleyes:

I actually couldn't wait to get to egypt (still am there and love it!) so I can see their point. But I loved Greece alot aswell. The best two locations so far. But Greece was kinda focused on St.Francis folly. Nothing else.. =/

TRBeth
16-06-07, 13:31
Its hard to understand that all of the side rooms and underwater chambers in the Cistern were left out in TRA. I wonder if CD realized that the Cistern was a favorite level for many Tomb Raider gamers?? It is just unbelievable how this level was totally turned into a pass through level with only one puzzle to solve. This is such a shame, since I believe this level was a classic beloved level by fans.

tombraiderluka
16-06-07, 13:46
Lol, when I came in and heard Pierre talk I thought it was the crocodile, I'm like WTF... Talking Crocs? :vlol:


:vlol:

AmericanAssassin
16-06-07, 13:54
My favorite level in all of Tomb Raider history is the Cistern from the original game. I'm sure you can imagine my shock and anger when I found out that the level I adored had been combined with a level I could barely remember, the Tomb of Tihocan. I went throughout the forums for a week or so, bashing Crystal Dynamics every chance I got. However, today, I feel that I was wrong. I actually like what CD have done with the two levels. Obviously, I like the original vibe of those levels more, but oh well... I've accepted that Core is gone forever now. I wish the levels were full, however, I like them anyway. :D

Vilcabambaby
17-06-07, 03:36
No problem to me as I never liked Tomb of Tihocan. I think it was a good idea to merge the Cistern and TOT because the latter just felt and similar to the former. That's just for me of course.

Blackmoor
17-06-07, 10:19
I replayed this level yesterday and it's just a bigger version of the Poseidon room at St Francis Folly. Virtually the same puzzle but with a bit more intracacy.

The more I think about it the more unimpressed I am with this one. Not a patch on the original.

RAID
17-06-07, 10:46
The Tomb of Tihocan is the most reduced level I think :(


Yes it was terribly butchered, along with Vilcabamba (my fav in TR1 :() and Atlantis. Atlantis felt like Legend. Linear and easy. It was more like a training area without hints.

This game is a big step in the right direction from legend. As an independent game it's great, but as a remake, it could've been more faithful.

The Lost valley was also a waste. Can't get behind the waterfall, the side caverns were removed, etc... Compared to TR1, this game lacked exploration.

But overall, it was an improvement from Legend (which was a great game, but not so TR) and don't get me wrong, Anniversary is a great TR game. Just not as much exploration as the original.

Overall This game gets an 8/10 (score doesn't include graphics and controls)

Alive_and_Funky
17-06-07, 10:50
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:
Wow. Just... wow.
I suppose I'm classed as a modern gamer, I've only been playing games frequently since the end of 2001, and I didn't really find the original Cistern confusing. I did use a walkthrough at one point, and I found out that the mistake I made was that I missed a key since it camouflaged with the ground really well. Now, considering that Tomb Raider was made in 1996, and it was one of the early 3D games, that's understandable, but it's unlikely that you would have that problem in Tomb Raider: Anniversary, due to being made in 2007. So basically, the only reason I found the original Cistern to be confusing was due to it being an early 3D game, so I doubt I would have had a problem with the Cistern being quite like the original in Tomb Raider: Anniversary.
Personally, I find that comment which they made pretty insulting. Sure, some people may have struggled with it, but that they say modern gamers in general would be confused by it, well, it's insulting. Heck, I got a bit confused at points in Tomb Raider: Anniversary, including the Cistern part of Tomb of Tihocan, but I figured everything out in the end. And if people do get confused with a game, they can always ask for help or look for a walkthrough.
I think all of this is partly due to selling more copies of Tomb Raider games. Look at the way they try to make the game get a 12+ age rating:

-No blood. (This doesn't concern me much, but it helps make my point.)
-Blackouts after being killed.

Erm, I can't think of anymore, but I bet some other people could help me out with this. Anyway, here's my point: If you've got a vision of a game, book, film, or some other kind of media, don't just try to tone things down to make it more accessible to other people. Could you imagine if movies such as The Godfather and Texas Chainsaw Massacre were toned down to reach a PG certificate?
Gamers, in general, want a challenge, and as I said before, if they get stuck they can use a walkthrough.

Angel_14
17-06-07, 11:08
I replayed this level yesterday and it's just a bigger version of the Poseidon room at St Francis Folly. Virtually the same puzzle but with a bit more intracacy.

Same here. I actually skipped that level, because I thought "I already did this puzzle..." I feel a bit guilty for doing that...

jeffrey van oort
17-06-07, 11:09
When I actually play TRA now, I dont compare it to the original, I compare it to Legend. Anniversary is a great Tomb Raider game in its own right, without the back-up of TR1. The editing of the levels have been done for a reason, maybe because of deadlines to meet, or they wanted to expand other area's, Maybe to make the game more coherent, I really doubt that they cut it because they couldnt be bothered.

In comparison to Legend, Anniversary is a massive improvement. We all knew that it wasnt going to beat the Original, mainly because it IS the original.
Like I said before, Anniversary is an excellent TR in its own right, and I wasnt really that disappointed that some of the levels had been cut, because the rest of the game, or the area's that where included, were so immersive.

I agree with what you said. I actually compared it more with Legend than with the original because it can hardly be compared with the original. However I did see some areas which brought my mind back to TR1 like the hand of Midas and St. Francis Folly. Other than these two areas it pretty much seemed like a whole new game to me.

Blackmoor
17-06-07, 11:15
Same here. I actually skipped that level, because I thought "I already did this puzzle..." I feel a bit guilty for doing that...And so you should! Get back there this instant!! :D I only re-did it because I needed to get the artifact. :)

Concepcion30
18-06-07, 04:47
I think CD practiced give and take when re doing the levels. Let's compare Mountain Caves level and Final Conflict. They made the outside of the cave playable when it was only viewed as an FMV in the original.

However, for Final Conflict, Lara's escape of the pyramid was only a cut scene in TRA, instead of a series of difficult jumps like in the original aiding her escape. So in that light, CD gave a little, and they took a little.

xdiesp
18-06-07, 10:39
By the time of TR3, it became all too evident in reviews that people were of 2 kinds: those few who were able to play a TR game to the end, and the remaining vast majority who were not able to. This might sound like a compliment to those brave few, but it was actually regarded as a failure of the game to captivate players to the end of it with an acceptable learning curve. So, when Crystal Dynamics received the mandate over the next TR installments, the first thing they did was to make it more dumbass-friendly: "Thanks for playing TRL, no go play with all the other 'special' kids" :cen:

Joe_16
18-06-07, 12:19
Did the commentary actually say they didn't want to confuse us? If so, that is ridiculous.

mmm...cookies
18-06-07, 12:24
I think you're all forgetting one main thing....TOBY GARD

Toby Gard made the original tomb raider what it is (hell he invented Lara) it was his baby. If he decided to add/remove lengthen/shorten anything it's because it's the way he wanted it to be, it's his game and things have/are going to change because he wanted them too.

CD are the best company in the buissiness to make action/adventure games. Soul Reaver and Gex series were and still are great to play. these games also got harder with each sequal/prequal.

Bottom Line................ TRL was good and fun TRA is a little harder but still fun and i think TRL2 will be the hardest yet but still fun...

MMAN
18-06-07, 12:59
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:

No they didn't. The closest they came was saying that it was originally pretty intimidating at first, but they weren't really positive on negative about that. They just said they wanted change it to focus on the main room (actually, they heavily implied that they intentionally tried to make the AE one intimidating at first too).

a_Nxiety
18-06-07, 14:04
i wish they would have just expanded on every level and kept them all. i would have loved a game that took me 20+ hours to complete. Remember when great games used to be like 2-3 discs because they were so long? Where are those? i'm tired of these 1-2 hour games that come out with their $60 price tags. (obviously not directed at TRA)

Angel_14
18-06-07, 14:29
I think you're all forgetting one main thing....TOBY GARD

Toby Gard made the original tomb raider what it is (hell he invented Lara) it was his baby. If he decided to add/remove lengthen/shorten anything it's because it's the way he wanted it to be, it's his game and things have/are going to change because he wanted them too.


1. Toby Gard only made concepts about Lara.
2. It's not his baby. I think you're forgetting the other 5 people, who worked on TR and made it what it is.
3. If he's the one, who changes everything in TR, then I would like to thank him for making TR2, TR3, TR4, TR5 and TR6. Oh wait, he wasn't even there... These 5 games makes his rights questionable: if he left TR after the first installment, does he have the right to come back after 7 years and change everything to his likeness? Does he have the right to rewrite and create a brand new Lara Croft, who is totally different from the one we knew, or to make CD scrap out those things from TR Legend that looked VERY promising and I dare to say, challenging?
Toby Gard is overrated. If he creates a character, that doesn't mean that he created everything that is TR. Even a brain-dead kid can find out a character.

Laras Backpack
18-06-07, 14:34
Toby Gard made the original tomb raider what it is (hell he invented Lara) it was his baby. If he decided to add/remove lengthen/shorten anything it's because it's the way he wanted it to be, it's his game and things have/are going to change because he wanted them too.

There's never one person behind all the decisions for any game. For example, in the commentaries for St FF Toby says that he still wanted Pierre to jump out at the player in the game but that CD shot down the idea. Toby was working with a big group of other designers and execs. Besides, the levels were most likely shortened due to budget cuts and time constraints. this kind of thing limits what developers can do for almost every game out there. Very few games these days meet close to their full potential

surallan
20-06-07, 01:51
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:

Yeah, there was some serious dumbing down in TRA. I felt rather insulted by those flourescent grab-ledges everywhere, which looked the same whether you were in Peru, Greece or Egypt!

When I walked into a room, it was a case of: oh yes, I need to go there, there and oh yes, there.

DaveFLBrn
20-06-07, 02:12
i wish they would have just expanded on every level and kept them all. i would have loved a game that took me 20+ hours to complete. Remember when great games used to be like 2-3 discs because they were so long? Where are those? i'm tired of these 1-2 hour games that come out with their $60 price tags. (obviously not directed at TRA)

They didn't have DVDs back then, that's why the games were on 2-3 CDs. DVDs hold much more data.

PirateFromPeru
20-06-07, 04:27
The Cistern/Tomb of Tihocan and the Lost City levels were really the only things I was slighty dissappointed in. They all seemed too short and narrowed down (doesnt' mean I hated those levels, but they could have been longer). With those things aside, however, the game as a whole was fantastic. I fricken' loved it! :jmp:

L.C
20-06-07, 10:37
On the commentary, they said that it may have been too confusing for modern gamers. :wve:I wouldn't take this as an insult. My understanding is this comment is directed to gamers who are discovering TR via the new releases, not us gamers who are used to the old-style format. The old faithful are now more or less retro gamers, if you think about it :p