Batman Returns For a Third Movie - Page 185

Sir Croft · 05-08-12, 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MangelinaJolie

The bar scene was one of my favorites. It needed more like that, I think.

I really liked how she switched from thief to helpless woman so quickly yet so seamlessly.
Her first encounter with Wayne particularly surprised me.

Shark_Blade · 06-08-12, 01:01

Yeah that "Oops, I didn't know it was uncrackable." line surprised me. She showed her true color the moment she was caught .

I thought they were going for the Batman Returns route for her - from a timid peon to a klepto in a catsuit. But apparently she's an intelligent manipulative character since the beginning. I like it.

Oh, another detail I remembered: In the novel, when Selina knocked Bruce's cane with her leg, she karate chopped his shoulder after that and he fell to the floor. But I guess they didn't show it in the movie, figure it's too much to attack a cripple.

Jedd Fletcher · 07-08-12, 01:38

Yep, I liked how Catwoman was made into a con artist and a grifter as much as a thief, it made sense. And her liberal use of the "wounded gazelle gambit", where she'd play on expectations that she'd be weak and helpless only to turn the tables. The scene in the bar where she essentially entraps Dagget and gang was brilliant.

lcroft_lc · 08-08-12, 06:32

Cochrane · 09-08-12, 01:00

I watched the movie a few days ago. Some things that stuck in my mind (beware, major spoilers):

The movie feels like a continuation of the first, not so much the second. It does mention the plot points, but this is much less about the very visible evil enemies, and more about the enemies as the physical manifestation of an underlying darkness.

As a result of that, Batman doesn't work in the movie. He's always been horribly ridiculous, like in the first movie, when he shouts "I'm Batman!" at the random mook. In the second movie, that worked, because the Joker (and to some degree Harvey Dent) were similarly ridiculous. Here, it's all serious, with nothing funny about Bane, and Batman stands out like a sore thumb.

Not for much of the movie, though. Most of the time, he's kind of pointless, wasting away in a prison or a bed or wherever while the plot happens. This movie could, with just a few strategic edits, have gotten rid of Batman completely, and I think it would have been a better one. I vote to replace him with Catwoman. She was smart, charming, and almost had depth to her character, and except for that mask, she's nowhere near as ridiculous as the man who dresses like a bat. I like her.

The plot twist was completely hollow. This may have been my fault: I kept forgetting who that woman was and asked my sister every time "Is that the one from before?" She staid way too colorless. So when she finally showed her true colors, my reaction was mostly, "OK, so who cares?" If Morgan Freeman had been the traitor, then I'd have gasped, but random board woman… not so much.

In a similar manner, I'm not sure what I think about Bane, but mostly, I think nothing. His origin story is not actually his, his motivation is boring, his emotions are hidden behind a bad copy of Darth Vader and any and all ideology he spouts is fake anyway. He, just like Qui-Gon Jinn before him, is a manifestation of a general sense of evil and dread, but not very interesting as a character. The Joker was better. The Joker was actually better than all characters in this movie. They should totally bring Heath Ledger back from the dead.

Okay, I'll make one exception: Scarecrow as a judge. If the movie had just been that, it would still have been good. Better, actually. There's exactly one guy in the movie allowed to have fun, and boy, does he use it.

Finally, what the hell is up with that ending? They had two perfectly good options:

A) Batman sacrifices himself. After spending so much time setting up a successor in the form of uniformed, face-showing Random Cop, that would have been ideal.
B) It seems like Batman dies, but he is actually still around, watching over Gotham, waiting for the day he is needed again.

Instead they went with
C) It seems like Batman dies, but he is actually still around, retired to France with Catwoman.

What the hell? Seriously, just what is that supposed to be? Yes, it was foreshadowed, but come on, this is not how a hero's journey ends. The stupidity of it all kind of left me speechless.

Aphrodite22 · 12-08-12, 17:13

I saw it yesterday again and i gotta say i liked it ALOT more than the first time i saw it... No idea why, maybe i understood it more.

Jedd Fletcher · 12-08-12, 18:05

I saw the film in the theaters for the third time and picked up on even more things I missed the first two go-rounds, and felt that the perceived "plot holes" did not bother me at all. I was even more impressed at how well-constructed and crafted it was as a film, all the effort that went into assembling something so gargantuan and putting it up on the screen. It's easy for us on the internet to scoff at the film or say how else we would have done it, but the act of actually getting a film made from the ground up is no small feat, and the films in Nolan's Batman trilogy have quite consistently been crowd-wowers packed with spectacle and circumstance, but also films of substance with thematic and character material that is really hard to come by in blockbusters of any kind, most of which are production-line styled films just tossed out to the consumer. Even if the Nolan Batman films weren't perfect or didn't fit everybody's idea of a Batman film, the amount of heart, the earnestness and the thinking and consideration put into them is worth something.

Cochrane, it was interesting to read your thoughts on the film, and I'll try and address both the plot twist and the ending.

With regards to the reveal of Miranda Tate being Talia al Ghul, I thought it was done brilliantly because Nolan played a sort of "maybe I will, maybe I won't" game with the audience. Once Marion Cotillard was cast, everyone pounced on the idea that she most definitely was playing Talia al Ghul. In the comics, Talia is Ra's' daughter and is often torn between loyalty to her supervillain father and to Batman, whom she genuinely loves. She actually has a child with Bruce, named Damian Wayne, who is currently Robin in the comics. This is a little funny as Cotillard had just given birth to her son when she started filming her part, and her scenes were delayed a little to allow her to deliver her child and recuperate. Cotillard came out time and again to deny that she was playing Miranda Tate, but incriminating set photos of "Tate" with Bane's men seemed to increase suspicion. Miranda Tate isn't some "random broad" though by all appearances she seems to be - it adds to how effective she was to the story. Remember, Bruce began to fall in love with her as he saw her as someone to comfort him in the wake of Alfred's leaving and everything going south in his life with Bane draining his finances and so on. She slept with Bruce, she got under his skin and she made herself out to be someone he really could trust, which made her betrayal have all the more impact to him. And of course once you have Ra's al Ghul you've gotta bring things full circle with Talia; she's an important part of Batman and Ra's' mentor-student hero-villain relationship.

As for the ending, I thought it was marvellous. Batman appears to have made a heroic sacrifice and even though it ends up that he survived, he did make many sacrifices after all. It's interesting to remember what Alfred told him earlier on, about there being nothing for him in Gotham but suffering and tragedy - yet Batman dedicates himself to saving the city and bringing it back from the brink time and time again. So, instead of dying with his city, he finally gets to live, just as Gotham was saved from being decimated by the bomb by Batman's own actions. The ending provided a tremendous amount of closure. Blake is an amalgamation of the first three Robins in the comics: Dick Grayson (who became a cop), Jason Todd (a bit of a hothead) and Tim Drake (a teen detective who deduced Batman's identity). It seemed fitting that he could carry on the mantle of the Bat, and it is said several times that "Batman" is a symbol, a legacy, not limited to one person. And in the comics Dick Grayson took over as Batman after Bruce "died" (for a while), so there is that precedent. At Bruce Wayne's fake funeral, that passage from A Tale of Two Cities is read ("it is a far far better rest that I go too...") - I haven't read the book, but learnt that the speech is made by a character who acts a double for another, dying in his stead so the other character can escape with his lover, just likle Bruce and Selina. Bruce's "far far better rest" is finally being able to put Batman behind him, to be truly happy for the first time since, well, since his parents died when he was a boy. Selina Kyle is also able to put her criminal past behind her and start afresh at Bruce's side. Selina and Bruce are often made out to be soulmates and it is for this reason that the comics never let them stay together for long because it would make both parties happy and satisfied - and I'm glad that they got that ending in TDKR. I don't think they disappeared to hide out in France - for one, the cafe was in Florence in Italy and two, it could have been as much a vacation as Alfred's. Remember, Gotham thinks Batman has died, so Bruce Wayne can still walk around the city and no one would be any the wiser. Same with Selina Kyle, having erased her criminal record. It was a great ending and I'm glad it ended on a hopeful note. Making us think for several minutes that Batman had actually, really died was quite something and kudos to the filmmakers for pulling that bit off really well.

Hope that made sense!

CosmoCroft · 13-08-12, 00:34

Is there going to be another sequel or just one trilogy??

Larua croft · 13-08-12, 00:47

catwoman is not hot at all she's so average looking. I don't see why my bf finds her so attractive

AmericanAssassin · 13-08-12, 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larua croft

catwoman is not hot at all she's so average looking. I don't see why my bf finds her so attractive

...

Anne Hathaway is flawless as ****.

[/fact]

06-08-12, 01:01	#1842
Shark_Blade Legend Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 25,678	Yeah that "Oops, I didn't know it was uncrackable." line surprised me. She showed her true color the moment she was caught . I thought they were going for the Batman Returns route for her - from a timid peon to a klepto in a catsuit. But apparently she's an intelligent manipulative character since the beginning. I like it. Oh, another detail I remembered: In the novel, when Selina knocked Bruce's cane with her leg, she karate chopped his shoulder after that and he fell to the floor. But I guess they didn't show it in the movie, figure it's too much to attack a cripple. Last edited by Shark_Blade; 06-08-12 at 01:10.

07-08-12, 01:38	#1843
Jedd Fletcher Professor Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,710	Yep, I liked how Catwoman was made into a con artist and a grifter as much as a thief, it made sense. And her liberal use of the "wounded gazelle gambit", where she'd play on expectations that she'd be weak and helpless only to turn the tables. The scene in the bar where she essentially entraps Dagget and gang was brilliant. __________________ "Death by irony is always painful." - Lara Croft, Legend

08-08-12, 06:32	#1844
lcroft_lc Tomb Raider Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Bangladesh Age:27 Gender: Male Posts: 10,819	__________________ Thank you Sir Alex Ferguson for your contribution :)

09-08-12, 01:00	#1845
Cochrane Tomb Raider Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In Germany Gender: I'm male Classification: Evil Posts: 11,940	I watched the movie a few days ago. Some things that stuck in my mind (beware, major spoilers): The movie feels like a continuation of the first, not so much the second. It does mention the plot points, but this is much less about the very visible evil enemies, and more about the enemies as the physical manifestation of an underlying darkness. As a result of that, Batman doesn't work in the movie. He's always been horribly ridiculous, like in the first movie, when he shouts "I'm Batman!" at the random mook. In the second movie, that worked, because the Joker (and to some degree Harvey Dent) were similarly ridiculous. Here, it's all serious, with nothing funny about Bane, and Batman stands out like a sore thumb. Not for much of the movie, though. Most of the time, he's kind of pointless, wasting away in a prison or a bed or wherever while the plot happens. This movie could, with just a few strategic edits, have gotten rid of Batman completely, and I think it would have been a better one. I vote to replace him with Catwoman. She was smart, charming, and almost had depth to her character, and except for that mask, she's nowhere near as ridiculous as the man who dresses like a bat. I like her. The plot twist was completely hollow. This may have been my fault: I kept forgetting who that woman was and asked my sister every time "Is that the one from before?" She staid way too colorless. So when she finally showed her true colors, my reaction was mostly, "OK, so who cares?" If Morgan Freeman had been the traitor, then I'd have gasped, but random board woman… not so much. In a similar manner, I'm not sure what I think about Bane, but mostly, I think nothing. His origin story is not actually his, his motivation is boring, his emotions are hidden behind a bad copy of Darth Vader and any and all ideology he spouts is fake anyway. He, just like Qui-Gon Jinn before him, is a manifestation of a general sense of evil and dread, but not very interesting as a character. The Joker was better. The Joker was actually better than all characters in this movie. They should totally bring Heath Ledger back from the dead. Okay, I'll make one exception: Scarecrow as a judge. If the movie had just been that, it would still have been good. Better, actually. There's exactly one guy in the movie allowed to have fun, and boy, does he use it. Finally, what the hell is up with that ending? They had two perfectly good options: A) Batman sacrifices himself. After spending so much time setting up a successor in the form of uniformed, face-showing Random Cop, that would have been ideal. B) It seems like Batman dies, but he is actually still around, watching over Gotham, waiting for the day he is needed again. Instead they went with C) It seems like Batman dies, but he is actually still around, retired to France with Catwoman. What the hell? Seriously, just what is that supposed to be? Yes, it was foreshadowed, but come on, this is not how a hero's journey ends. The stupidity of it all kind of left me speechless. __________________ Güter auf die Bahn! Last edited by Cochrane; 09-08-12 at 01:02.

12-08-12, 18:05	#1847
Jedd Fletcher Professor Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,710	I saw the film in the theaters for the third time and picked up on even more things I missed the first two go-rounds, and felt that the perceived "plot holes" did not bother me at all. I was even more impressed at how well-constructed and crafted it was as a film, all the effort that went into assembling something so gargantuan and putting it up on the screen. It's easy for us on the internet to scoff at the film or say how else we would have done it, but the act of actually getting a film made from the ground up is no small feat, and the films in Nolan's Batman trilogy have quite consistently been crowd-wowers packed with spectacle and circumstance, but also films of substance with thematic and character material that is really hard to come by in blockbusters of any kind, most of which are production-line styled films just tossed out to the consumer. Even if the Nolan Batman films weren't perfect or didn't fit everybody's idea of a Batman film, the amount of heart, the earnestness and the thinking and consideration put into them is worth something. Cochrane, it was interesting to read your thoughts on the film, and I'll try and address both the plot twist and the ending. With regards to the reveal of Miranda Tate being Talia al Ghul, I thought it was done brilliantly because Nolan played a sort of "maybe I will, maybe I won't" game with the audience. Once Marion Cotillard was cast, everyone pounced on the idea that she most definitely was playing Talia al Ghul. In the comics, Talia is Ra's' daughter and is often torn between loyalty to her supervillain father and to Batman, whom she genuinely loves. She actually has a child with Bruce, named Damian Wayne, who is currently Robin in the comics. This is a little funny as Cotillard had just given birth to her son when she started filming her part, and her scenes were delayed a little to allow her to deliver her child and recuperate. Cotillard came out time and again to deny that she was playing Miranda Tate, but incriminating set photos of "Tate" with Bane's men seemed to increase suspicion. Miranda Tate isn't some "random broad" though by all appearances she seems to be - it adds to how effective she was to the story. Remember, Bruce began to fall in love with her as he saw her as someone to comfort him in the wake of Alfred's leaving and everything going south in his life with Bane draining his finances and so on. She slept with Bruce, she got under his skin and she made herself out to be someone he really could trust, which made her betrayal have all the more impact to him. And of course once you have Ra's al Ghul you've gotta bring things full circle with Talia; she's an important part of Batman and Ra's' mentor-student hero-villain relationship. As for the ending, I thought it was marvellous. Batman appears to have made a heroic sacrifice and even though it ends up that he survived, he did make many sacrifices after all. It's interesting to remember what Alfred told him earlier on, about there being nothing for him in Gotham but suffering and tragedy - yet Batman dedicates himself to saving the city and bringing it back from the brink time and time again. So, instead of dying with his city, he finally gets to live, just as Gotham was saved from being decimated by the bomb by Batman's own actions. The ending provided a tremendous amount of closure. Blake is an amalgamation of the first three Robins in the comics: Dick Grayson (who became a cop), Jason Todd (a bit of a hothead) and Tim Drake (a teen detective who deduced Batman's identity). It seemed fitting that he could carry on the mantle of the Bat, and it is said several times that "Batman" is a symbol, a legacy, not limited to one person. And in the comics Dick Grayson took over as Batman after Bruce "died" (for a while), so there is that precedent. At Bruce Wayne's fake funeral, that passage from A Tale of Two Cities is read ("it is a far far better rest that I go too...") - I haven't read the book, but learnt that the speech is made by a character who acts a double for another, dying in his stead so the other character can escape with his lover, just likle Bruce and Selina. Bruce's "far far better rest" is finally being able to put Batman behind him, to be truly happy for the first time since, well, since his parents died when he was a boy. Selina Kyle is also able to put her criminal past behind her and start afresh at Bruce's side. Selina and Bruce are often made out to be soulmates and it is for this reason that the comics never let them stay together for long because it would make both parties happy and satisfied - and I'm glad that they got that ending in TDKR. I don't think they disappeared to hide out in France - for one, the cafe was in Florence in Italy and two, it could have been as much a vacation as Alfred's. Remember, Gotham thinks Batman has died, so Bruce Wayne can still walk around the city and no one would be any the wiser. Same with Selina Kyle, having erased her criminal record. It was a great ending and I'm glad it ended on a hopeful note. Making us think for several minutes that Batman had actually, really died was quite something and kudos to the filmmakers for pulling that bit off really well. Hope that made sense! __________________ "Death by irony is always painful." - Lara Croft, Legend

12-08-12, 17:13	#1846
Aphrodite22 Professor Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,916	I saw it yesterday again and i gotta say i liked it ALOT more than the first time i saw it... No idea why, maybe i understood it more.

13-08-12, 00:34	#1848
CosmoCroft Archaeologist Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Magnolia,Fairy Tail Posts: 1,128	Is there going to be another sequel or just one trilogy?? __________________ "I'll kill you all if I have to"-Lara (Deleted from final version)

13-08-12, 00:47	#1849
Larua croft Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Somewhere in america Gender: Female Posts: 2,227	catwoman is not hot at all she's so average looking. I don't see why my bf finds her so attractive Last edited by Larua croft; 13-08-12 at 00:55.