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Old 30-08-17, 13:14   #21
Chamayoo
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If not challenging, platforming should come back as more varied and elaborated. It's smooth and enjoyable in the reboots but come on... it's minimal. I love when Lara used different things on the environment, ropes, drainpipes, foliage, the monkey swing...
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Old 30-08-17, 13:24   #22
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Originally Posted by Avalon SARL View Post
Did you play the classic games?
Even some of TRLAU...

Because obviously you haven't or you were so good at them you did not feel and experience what we did
Why does it always come to this?
The moment people show criticism towards the classics its always "did you even play the classic games" instead of embracing the criticism.

I have played them all, most of the games never with a Gamepad but with the Keyboard...even nowadays.
I consider myself a rather average gamer who has no orientation, who checks ever corner at least once(sometimes twice because my lack of orientation brings me to the same places twice XD)

if it all comes down to the individual then i dont get this superior behaviour that the tomb raider fandom has in general.
This idea of my way or no way, what i think about the series is the only right way etc.
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Old 30-08-17, 13:24   #23
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Originally Posted by Chamayoo View Post
If not challenging, platforming should come back as more varied and elaborated. It's smooth and enjoyable in the reboots but come on... it's minimal. I love when Lara used different things on the environment, ropes, drainpipes, foliage, the monkey swing...
Yes, This is part of what as been missing. Most "platforming" in the newer games has just been jumps and grabs, with the odd climbing wall and gliding down rope thrown in.
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Old 30-08-17, 13:39   #24
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I have a little idea for the climbing sections.
Lara should grab with hands bricks, foliage, 3D structures without axes. When the wall looks fragile and unattainable with hands, she has to use her axes (as usual in the reboot games). Though it's a bit too late to bring that mechanic in the third game, should be there in the first game but well.
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Old 30-08-17, 14:45   #25
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I liked the puzzles in ROTTR and even the ones in TR 2013 in the main story. They were challenging indeed but not enough for me. And this comes from a person that did not played the classics but started with the TR 2013.
And now looking at the puzzles from Reboot and Rise knowing the solutions I can say that I do not see that much increase of difficulty between puzzles. In TR 2013 the ones in the main story were a bit more difficult then the ones in optional tombs but comparing only the puzzles in the main story I did not feel one was more difficult than the other.
In Rise however I did not see an increase of difficulty between all puzzles including the optional tomb ones. Maybe some of them had 1-2 more steps that you need to do to solve the puzzle but that was all.
About the platforming I liked that too with an exception. When walking on logs or platforms where Lara has to keep her balance(exemple being the ones in the Orrery puzzle) you as player do not keep Lara balance. All you need to do is to move forward. Even when losing balance it is regain automatically without any intervention from you the player.
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Old 30-08-17, 14:47   #26
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How is classic TR platforming not challenging? Have people played it recently? You have to jump at the right time, at the right angle, which makes it at least more challenging than today. And to top it off, the camera sometimes isn't at Lara's back. You could call all of this technical limitations, but they helped define Lara and TR as much as anything else. Lara is, for example, an icon from the 90's, she oozes 90's personality, so you could say she's outdated, but still her 90-ness defines her. It doesn't matter why the platforming was challenging, just that the fact it was challenging is a defining characteristic for the franchise.

About gamers and brains, I don't really get it. IMO gamers play things that require much more brain, if I'm not mistaken. They play against other players, obviously posing much more of a challenge than a computer IA nowadays can. I don't play Call of Duties and MOBAs, but they seem pretty demanding on brains. It's just another brain demand compared to TRs. But I think CD is wrong if she assumes gamers don't like to use their brains.

To end my post, I also noticed how in every gameplay I ever looked on youtube, the player used SI all the time. And I have actually searched for one that didn't. It appalled me.

Last edited by paulojr_mam; 30-08-17 at 14:55.
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Old 30-08-17, 14:54   #27
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Originally Posted by Mani_Man View Post
Where was this challenging platforming?
Even now when i play the games i see tank controls that force me to work unnatural tedious instead of organic.
Camera and movement do the rest.
I dont know, i consider myself a pretty average player but i really cant remember the platforming ever being really challenging even when i was younger...maybe then thats just me who thought it was nothing special.

The white markings in the reboot are really a bit unnecessary but i can look over that when im running through the game.

I simply dont get this kind of acting high and mighty that many Tomb raider fans seem to have when it comes to puzzles etc.
This constantly calling other gamers dumb, calling games and puzzles dumb when Tomb Raider at no time was in a top ten of the most challening video games ever.
It was challenging because:
-ledges/platforms were not magnetic so you actually had to aim your jumps properly and if you didn't do that, you'd miss and fall
-pretty much everything that looked grabbable was grabbable so an accessible ledge or platform didn't necessarily signpost the path you had to take
-there was far more 3D movement in between platforms rather than 2D movement in between and along ledges so there was one extra dimension to worry about than in most of the LAU/reboot traversal
-jump distances were fixed, not dynamic, so you actually had to be able to correctly assess distances between platforms

Whether you found the classic platforming challenging in general is your personal opinion based on your personal experience but compared to the "platforming"/ledge-hopping found in Crystal's Tomb Raider games? Yes, it definitely was challenging and not for the oft-cited reason of "bad controls". The controls are perfectly fine.

Last edited by Zebra; 30-08-17 at 14:58.
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Old 30-08-17, 14:57   #28
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Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
How is classic TR platforming not challenging? Have people played it recently? You have to jump at the right time, at the right angle, which makes it at least more challenging than today. And to top it off, the camera sometimes isn't at Lara's back. You could call all of this technical limitations, but they helped define Lara and TR as much as anything else. Lara is, for example, an icon from the 90's, she oozes 90's personality, so you could say she's outdated, but still her 90-ness defines her. It doesn't matter why the platforming was challenging, just that the fact it was challenging is a defining characteristic for the franchise.
Like I said in my earlier post, it was challenging to begin with when you are not used to the controls, when Lara seems so slow, clumsy, and easy to throw off a ledge.

Once you are used to her controlling like a tank, know the grid system to judge distance, and know the timing of all her moves, the challenge decreases significantly. They even give you a walk button where she can't fall down if you have it held. Play it carefully, it's almost impossible for you to fail.

You can increase the challenge by trying to whiz through without using the walk button at all and not trying to line up your jumps, but seriously the platforming of classic TR is hardly monstrously hard. I say this as a very big fan of the classic games too, if we're talking level design (which the platforming is a part of) and Lara's characterisation then yes I agree they were iconic and defining of a gaming generation.

They're harder than the newer games I'll concede (more down to the instant death situations than anything else), but the platforming isn't the hardest part.

Last edited by Yeauxleaux; 30-08-17 at 14:59.
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Old 30-08-17, 15:07   #29
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Originally Posted by Yeauxleaux View Post
Like I said in my earlier post, it was challenging to begin with when you are not used to the controls, when Lara seems so slow, clumsy, and easy to throw off a ledge.

Once you are used to her controlling like a tank, know the grid system to judge distance, and know the timing of all her moves, the challenge decreases significantly. They even give you a walk button where she can't fall down if you have it held. Play it carefully, it's almost impossible for you to fail.
.
You had to play it carefully. Honestly, it was the most challenging platforming of that time, as challenging as Mario 64 and more challenging than Crash Bandicoot. And what makes the platforming remain challenging is what is made with it. The mechanics have to become natural for the player, IMO. But then the challenges starts to ramp up through level design. You have to use the mechanics in unique ways and circumstances or in a short time. And, honestly, the very fact you have to play carefully all the time (for hours) is in itself a challenge.
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Old 30-08-17, 15:56   #30
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Originally Posted by Yeauxleaux View Post
Once you are used to her controlling like a tank, know the grid system to judge distance, and know the timing of all her moves, the challenge decreases significantly.
That's the case with every game ever made: Once you master the mechanics, it becomes easy.
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