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Old 30-06-17, 13:23   #21
pirate1802
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Damn, though I found the game enjoyable overall, your every point is absolutely true. I liked Lara's voice acting in the previous game but here I find it unbearable. As I find her general personality. As interesting as dishwasher, as you said. She does't say anything interesting or worth pondering upon. I'm not asking her to be wisecracking, but come on.. show us that you're a smart archaeologist. Everything she says is inane. Like when she says in Syria, "There was a battle here, armed soldiers against religious pilgrims". Any two bit can tell that from watching the corpses and paintings on the wall. Tell us something more. Show us your intellect! I guess for me this was papered over in the reboot because she was looking to survive there, but here she's out on her own mission and has to call forth all her training. Her dialogs with Jacob.. really anything about the divine source (very imaginative name there) is just filled with the typical buzzwords. "I have to make sense", "I must understand" etc. Nothing interesting, nothing specific. When she asks Jacpob what is the divine source I had to scratch my head. Doesn't she already know? And her change of opinion about the Mcguffin in the end totally was ham fisted. What, so she saw some people alive for centuries (that is, the device doing exactly what it's expected to do) and flipped? Either she was extremely naive before to not expect something like that to happen or Jacob brainwashed her. Because no coherent person can flip that quick. They made her change her position solely so they could put her in the "savior of the world" role. I was honestly rooting for Ana in the end. This lawful good savior of the world Lara is.. I find her very uninteresting to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Costel View Post
Actually Lara never wanted Jonah with her in Siberia. Or you people missed the part right in the opening scene?
You know the part where Lara says:
„You should stay here with them”
And Jonah: „Not a chance”
By that point Jonah was already standing under a potential avalanche. If she was serious she should never have brought him with her in the first place. And once you have brought him with you, why ask him to stay behind? Because you care for him? Well then you shouldn't have brought him. It goes around in circles.

Last edited by pirate1802; 30-06-17 at 13:25.
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Old 30-06-17, 13:56   #22
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Y Required elements of the game bring the most sense of satisfaction - because they're the "locked gateways" that you're tested on and have to overcome to "win" the game. It's the difference between make-work and a sense of having achieved something meaningful. To you that doesn't matter, to me, it does make a difference....
That's me too. Cracking open generic boxes to find points to go to the upgrade mall to put some ducttape on a rifle butt will never feel as satisfying as say . . . getting the Magnums in TR1.

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Story: Well, as story you're pretending too much because the classics and LAU's stories suck too, but I understand that you put this critique because it was supposed that the game turns around a full rich story rather than the gameplay and so the lacks and errors on it are more evident. I had the same feeling of you when she said:"I have to understand WHY", ecc. Like:"WTF". In the classics the intentions of Lara are blurring too, but since the gameplay is the main stuff, her motivations aren't highlighted and we simply don't care about. We're all like:"She wants to take artifacts because why not", but we don't put questions on it. And I understand it, it's because in the classics the main elements isn't the story so automatically we're less pretentious.
Again, crappy storytelling in old games shouldn't excuse modern day storytelling. They have the technology and the money to tell this story in a manner that isn't well . . . boring. Cliche. Everyone and everything is horribly flat and one-dimensional. Everything is always dialed up to 11 on the Serious and Important meters.

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Lenght: I like long games but in this case I don't like the fact that the longness is made from the things that you call "fillers". You like God of Was but it's long too (I love it too).
I don't remember God of War making me to the same thing 3 times in a row. Come on--3 trebuchets? 3 helicopters? By that point I felt like they weren't even try to make the game interesting. Just . . .do another one of those trebuchet things.

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Originally Posted by pirate1802 View Post
Damn, though I found the game enjoyable overall, your every point is absolutely true. I liked Lara's voice acting in the previous game but here I find it unbearable. As I find her general personality. As interesting as dishwasher, as you said. She does't say anything interesting or worth pondering upon. I'm not asking her to be wisecracking, but come on.. show us that you're a smart archaeologist. Everything she says is inane. Like when she says in Syria, "There was a battle here, armed soldiers against religious pilgrims". Any two bit can tell that from watching the corpses and paintings on the wall. Tell us something more. Show us your intellect! I guess for me this was papered over in the reboot because she was looking to survive there, but here she's out on her own mission and has to call forth all her training. Her dialogs with Jacob.. really anything about the divine source (very imaginative name there) is just filled with the typical buzzwords. "I have to make sense", "I must understand" etc. Nothing interesting, nothing specific. When she asks Jacpob what is the divine source I had to scratch my head. Doesn't she already know? And her change of opinion about the Mcguffin in the end totally was ham fisted. What, so she saw some people alive for centuries (that is, the device doing exactly what it's expected to do) and flipped? Either she was extremely naive before to not expect something like that to happen or Jacob brainwashed her. Because no coherent person can flip that quick. They made her change her position solely so they could put her in the "savior of the world" role. I was honestly rooting for Ana in the end. This lawful good savior of the world Lara is.. I find her very uninteresting to say the least.
Lara is stupid. At least they write her stupid. They did the same thing in TReboot. She never asked the right questions (which we were all thinking) and never reached the obvious conclusions.

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By that point Jonah was already standing under a potential avalanche. If she was serious she should never have brought him with her in the first place. And once you have brought him with you, why ask him to stay behind? Because you care for him? Well then you shouldn't have brought him. It goes around in circles.
Really? I thought this was the scene in the library/study whatever. I know they discussed Jonah's status there. My point stands: Lara could have NOT brought him and she did.

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Old 30-06-17, 14:10   #23
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Old 30-06-17, 14:53   #24
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It's the established universe that sets the rules for what can and cannot pass.
Exactly . But the way y'all are seeing it either pitch black or incredibly bright white . I personally don't look at it like that, The Classic universe isn't 100% cartoonish and unrealistic , it's nothing like the Scooby doo universe or the powerpuff girls universe , there were plenty of realistic stuff : Lara getting unconscious when she gets hit on the head (cutscenes) , dying from a swandive to a dry land , having to rush to the surface before drowning after breaking her oxygen tank etc , the fact is that the classic universe was a mixture of realistic and non-realistic things and you're accepting that , then why does everyone have a hard time accepting that the reboot universe is ALSO a mixture of realistic and non-realistic ? why are everyone expecting to play a 100% realistic game from the reboot games when the developers themselves never claimed that they're making one ? if they're trying to make a purely realistic game , do you think that they would've put Himiko a crazy soul controlling an island or a blue crystal that makes the possesser immortal ? a 100% realistic game isn't even something possible to achieve (re-read my previous post) nor was it CD's target , yes , CD might be aiming for more realism in the reboot games but they're NOT aiming for ultra realism , otherwise we would be seeing Lara stopping after like 15 minutes of running because she'd be too tired realistically to continue , she would need to take at least a week of resting after a bullet in the leg etc etc , the reboot games being..well , video games will still retain their gamey features , the features that are a given in every game out there , and they're unrealistic because not everything in video games is realistic , in short , the way I see it :

Classic universe : 60% unrealistic , 40% realistic
Reboot universe : 60% realistic , 40% unrealistic .

Therefore nit-picking every single game-y feature in the reboot games and maoning at how unrealistic it is for the non-existent ultra realistic game that people are imagining CD saying that they're trying to make is , well , pointless .
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Originally Posted by Dennis's Mom View Post
We noticed.[/I] It drives me bananas in TR1 that there's a hole Lara could obviously crawl through except for she can't crawl! But 20 years ago, gaming and gamers weren't as sophisticated. We put up with all sorts of odd stuff because technology..
But see , the examples in my previous post about Classic Lara had absolutely nothing to do with technology , it was a game rule , they were able to depict dismembered bodies from Lara's grenades , but they weren't able to depict a wooden door being destroyed from a grenade ? no , technology is irrelevant here , it was because the game rule that they have established says that grenades can't destroy EVERY thing in the game world , it can only tear enemies apart , same with Rise , explosive arrows within the game's rules don't destroy everything , otherwise the player can go around firing explosive arrows at everything , every ice wall , every gate , just everything , do you really expect CD (or any developer , really) to design such a 200% realistic world that's so interactive that any damage that's possible in real life can also happen in the game world resulting in a permanent change in the latter ? Nah , I don't think so .


And regarding the for-ever recurring Jonah argument , it was painfully obvious that Lara didn't want him with her , everything she says to him implies so .

If the divine source is hidden in the ruins of Kitezh , waiting to be found then I have to go !

You should stay here , with them

The way I'm seeing it : Lara didn't want him with her , but he insisted , I don't really know what people are expecting Lara to do , tie him to a chair in her manor ? put a pistol in his mouth and yell : "DON'T YOU DARE FOLLOW ME !" ? I can even picture him booking a ticket on her plane just forcefully , everything we've seen of Jonah at this point suggest that he's that type of person , even when she asks him to go back after the avalanche , he doesn't listen , but instead press deeper into the terrain and come across Jacob's people .

Last edited by Patrick star; 30-06-17 at 15:19.
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Old 30-06-17, 15:08   #25
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Originally Posted by Patrick star View Post
Exactly . But the way y'all are seeing it either pitch black or incredibly bright white ? . I personally don't look at it like that, The Classic universe isn't 100% cartoonish and unrealistic , it's nothing like the Scooby doo there were plenty of realistic stuff : Lara getting unconscious when she gets hit on the head (cutscenes) , dying from a swandive to a dry land , having to rush to the surface before drowning after breaking her oxygen tank etc , the fact is that the classic universe was a mixture of realistic and non-realistic things and you're accepting that , then why does everyone have a hard time accepting that the reboot universe is ALSO a mixture of realistic and non-realistic ? why are everyone expecting to play a 100% realistic game from the reboot games when the developers themselves never claimed that they're making one ? if they're trying to make a purely realistic game , would you think that they would've put Himiko a crazy soul controlling an island or a blue crystal that makes the possesser immortal ? a 100% realistic game isn't even something possible to achieve (re-read my previous post) nor was it CD's target , yes , CD might be aiming for more realism in the reboot games but they're NOT aiming for ultra realism , otherwise we would be seeing Lara stopping after like 15 minutes of running because she'd be too tired realistically to continue , she would need to take at least a week of resting after a bullet in the leg etc etc , the reboot games being..well , video games will still retain their gamey features , the features that are a given in every game out there , and they're unrealistic because not everything in video games is realistic , in short , the way I see it :

Classic universe : 60% unrealistic , 40% realistic
Reboot universe : 60% realistic , 40% unrealistic .

Therefore nit-picking every single game-y feature in the reboot games and maoning at how unrealistic it is for the non-existent ultra realistic game that people are imagining CD saying that they're trying to make is , well , pointless .
THANK YOU. That's exactly what I wanted to say but I was too lazy to write a text.
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Old 30-06-17, 15:16   #26
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THANK YOU. That's exactly what I wanted to say but I was too lazy to write a text.
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Old 30-06-17, 15:50   #27
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Exactly . But the way y'all are seeing it either pitch black or incredibly bright white . I personally don't look at it like that, The Classic universe isn't 100% cartoonish and unrealistic , it's nothing like the Scooby doo universe or the powerpuff girls universe , there were plenty of realistic stuff : Lara getting unconscious when she gets hit on the head (cutscenes) , dying from a swandive to a dry land , having to rush to the surface before drowning after breaking her oxygen tank etc , the fact is that the classic universe was a mixture of realistic and non-realistic things and you're accepting that , then why does everyone have a hard time accepting that the reboot universe is ALSO a mixture of realistic and non-realistic ? why are everyone expecting to play a 100% realistic game from the reboot games when the developers themselves never claimed that they're making one ? if they're trying to make a purely realistic game , do you think that they would've put Himiko a crazy soul controlling an island or a blue crystal that makes the possesser immortal ? a 100% realistic game isn't even something possible to achieve (re-read my previous post) nor was it CD's target , yes , CD might be aiming for more realism in the reboot games but they're NOT aiming for ultra realism , otherwise we would be seeing Lara stopping after like 15 minutes of running because she'd be too tired realistically to continue , she would need to take at least a week of resting after a bullet in the leg etc etc , the reboot games being..well , video games will still retain their gamey features , the features that are a given in every game out there , and they're unrealistic because not everything in video games is realistic , in short , the way I see it :

Classic universe : 60% unrealistic , 40% realistic
Reboot universe : 60% realistic , 40% unrealistic .

Therefore nit-picking every single game-y feature in the reboot games and maoning at how unrealistic it is for the non-existent ultra realistic game that people are imagining CD saying that they're trying to make is , well , pointless .
I've never claimed classic TR is like Scooby Doo or Powerpuff Girls.
I know what you're getting at, but there is a middle ground between 100% unrealistic and 100% realistic. And the point is that the classic games are much closer to unrealistic than they are to realistic. That's both a result of the limited tech/graphics and the deliberate tone and style of the game universe and its characters.

The reboot games are of course a completely different animal. They opt for pretty much 100% gritty realism in visuals and characters and then they of course (because this is TR) add a limited supernatural element to the mix (but still very realistic and toned down compared to previous TR games). Obviously since it's a fictional universe that has supernatural elements to it they won't achieve 100% realism, but the maturity in characters, story and the tone they have chosen in combination with the 100% realistic visuals imposes some barriers when it comes down to what they can and cannot do in these games.

The bottom line is that the more stylistic and non-realistic a game universe and its characters are, the more you can 'get away with'. Suspension of disbelief in the player can be stretched further because of how the game universe and characters have been established.
The more realistic and mature a game is, the less the players are willing to stretch their suspension of disbelief and the more scrutiny it will be under. Anything that doesn't 'fit' will stand out like a sore thumb.
If you want a modern day example (instead of just comparing rebooted TR to classics) you can for example compare Uncharted to rebooted TR and you'll see how absurd stuff happening in UC doesn't stick out in the same way as in the reboot games because of the tone and level of realism in UC is less aimed for realism and maturity than rebooted TR. A game like UC can get away with more than what rebooted TR can.

Again, you need look no further than to compare ROTTR to Cradle of Life and you'll see a constant string of absurdities all the way through CoL that could never ever have happened in ROTTR.

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Old 30-06-17, 17:00   #28
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The way I'm seeing it : Lara didn't want him with her , but he insisted , I don't really know what people are expecting Lara to do , tie him to a chair in her manor ? put a pistol in his mouth and yell : "DON'T YOU DARE FOLLOW ME !" ? .
Nah, just tell him you're not going anywhere and then secretly disappear one day. Seriously, if a person whom you absolutely don't want to be with you still follows you, then either you lack the strength to refuse him or the skills to deceive him.
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Old 30-06-17, 17:07   #29
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Old 30-06-17, 17:13   #30
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Exactly . But the way y'all are seeing it either pitch black or incredibly bright white . I personally don't look at it like that, The Classic universe isn't 100% cartoonish and unrealistic , it's nothing like the Scooby doo universe or the powerpuff girls universe , there were plenty of realistic stuff : Lara getting unconscious when she gets hit on the head (cutscenes) , dying from a swandive to a dry land , having to rush to the surface before drowning after breaking her oxygen tank etc , the fact is that the classic universe was a mixture of realistic and non-realistic things and you're accepting that , then why does everyone have a hard time accepting that the reboot universe is ALSO a mixture of realistic and non-realistic ? why are everyone expecting to play a 100% realistic game from the reboot games when the developers themselves never claimed that they're making one ? if they're trying to make a purely realistic game , do you think that they would've put Himiko a crazy soul controlling an island or a blue crystal that makes the possesser immortal ? a 100% realistic game isn't even something possible to achieve (re-read my previous post) nor was it CD's target , yes , CD might be aiming for more realism in the reboot games but they're NOT aiming for ultra realism , otherwise we would be seeing Lara stopping after like 15 minutes of running because she'd be too tired realistically to continue , she would need to take at least a week of resting after a bullet in the leg etc etc , the reboot games being..well , video games will still retain their gamey features , the features that are a given in every game out there , and they're unrealistic because not everything in video games is realistic , in short , the way I see it :

Classic universe : 60% unrealistic , 40% realistic
Reboot universe : 60% realistic , 40% unrealistic .

Therefore nit-picking every single game-y feature in the reboot games and maoning at how unrealistic it is for the non-existent ultra realistic game that people are imagining CD saying that they're trying to make is , well , pointless .


But see , the examples in my previous post about Classic Lara had absolutely nothing to do with technology , it was a game rule , they were able to depict dismembered bodies from Lara's grenades , but they weren't able to depict a wooden door being destroyed from a grenade ? no , technology is irrelevant here , it was because the game rule that they have established says that grenades can't destroy EVERY thing in the game world , it can only tear enemies apart , same with Rise , explosive arrows within the game's rules don't destroy everything , otherwise the player can go around firing explosive arrows at everything , every ice wall , every gate , just everything , do you really expect CD (or any developer , really) to design such a 200% realistic world that's so interactive that any damage that's possible in real life can also happen in the game world resulting in a permanent change in the latter ? Nah , I don't think so .
It's not about realism. Sheesh, I don't expect realism. I expect TRUTH. There is a difference. Nothing annoys me more than when movies/TV/games lie to me. How many times have you been sitting watching a perfectly good movie/TV/cutscene and a character does/says something that you know no one would ever do? It's a lie. It's like in TWD when everyone piles into the RV to take Maggie to the doctor. It was a stupid move which I've railed on in TWD thread. It's like Carrie in Homeland escaping the crazy armed terrorist, calling for backup outside and then going back in alone and unarmed. Stupid. No one would do it but stupid people. Smart people wait for backup. It's a lie. Like every idiot who ever has to investigate that noise alone in a horror movie.

This is the stupid of Tomb Raider. No one continues to go up a mountain in that weather. It's stupid, but CD does it because they need to create a crisis cutscene where Lara loses everything. Come on, find a way that doesn't make Lara look stupid. Even prepared people have issues. You don't have to have Lara doing things that no one in their right mind does. Or not doing things that normal people do, like ask obvious questions and expect real answers. This is why Uncharted excels where Tomb Raider fails: in UC, character talk like real people. They don't ignore obvious issues. I don't sit there and wonder why So and So isn't bringing up X because So and So does bring up X. Is the game over the top and unrealistic? Sure, but the writers don't lie to me by avoiding the obvious issues with the story.

Why is it a headline in 60 point type that Lara's father is wrong? That's just not how the world works. He's not an MP who got a government program for it. He didn't bilk credible people out of millions. He just had a theory that got debunked, but somehow I'm supposed to believe this is Big Time Scandal.

Quote:
And regarding the for-ever recurring Jonah argument , it was painfully obvious that Lara didn't want him with her , everything she says to him implies so .

If the divine source is hidden in the ruins of Kitezh , waiting to be found then I have to go !

You should stay here , with them

The way I'm seeing it : Lara didn't want him with her , but he insisted , I don't really know what people are expecting Lara to do , tie him to a chair in her manor ? put a pistol in his mouth and yell : "DON'T YOU DARE FOLLOW ME !" ? I can even picture him booking a ticket on her plane just forcefully , everything we've seen of Jonah at this point suggest that he's that type of person , even when she asks him to go back after the avalanche , he doesn't listen , but instead press deeper into the terrain and come across Jacob's people .
Well, in a world with a clever, determined Lara, there's a scene where she tricks him and leaves him home safe. She loses him in their connecting airport, abandons him in a hotel, takes an earlier flight--there's a million ways a girl who really wants to be alone can do it without putting a gun to someone's head.

Like I said earlier, the only reason Lara doesn't have a sidekick is because a mountain decided she doesn't have a sidekick. Lara has no agency in anything. Clearly she wants Jonah there because Jonah is there. Talk is cheap.
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