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Old 23-02-08, 17:19   #91
SamReeves
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Originally Posted by spelunking View Post


You think she looks like this?
http://i30.************/18kilg.jpg
So are you exaggerating again? You know, it's just as insulting to thin, fit women to say they look anorexic....

Ouch! My eyes are burning this morning.
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Old 23-02-08, 18:02   #92
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I think the classics used to keep you on the edge of your seat because Lara was harder to control; accidentally brush the wrong button and she'd once more be catapaulted into oblivion. Plus the levels were a lot more surreal (inadvertently so, due to graphical and memory limitations); not as logical as the crystal dynamics games, and this also makes you play the game more tentitively.
I think core's level designs were sometimes a bit haphazard and illogical and i dnt think it was an intentional effort to challenge the player, but more likely due to a lax disposition to the importance of harmonius level design. But in contrast, Crystals level design isn't surreal enough, maybe it's too logical and planned out, which compromises any potential surprise elements.
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Old 23-02-08, 18:55   #93
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I'm a size 0 and I don't even look like that. Anorexic is quite the charge to level. Lara is nowhere near it. Thin/fit ≠ anorexic.

How funny, some complain she looks fat, others complain she's anorexic. All are just over-analytical and have some preconceived notion of what a perfect woman is. The mistake they make is to think that Lara should aspire to be it.
exactly, we all see 'perfect' as something different, but does lara have to be perfect. since when was she ever labeled officially as the 'perfect woman

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Ouch! My eyes are burning this morning.
nothing like a nice morning wake-up call, is there
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Old 23-02-08, 19:16   #94
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somehow this thread has gone of topic, this thread is about the level design and gameplay of cores and cd's games. please continue the discussion of lara in the apropriate thread.

i remembered no long boring corridoors that CD said were in tr1 but removed for tra but im replaying tr1 and i have gone through about 2 long corridors and im on the cistern and on tra there seems to be an endless parade of them.
what i find an ultimatum of fustration is the repetitive gameplay pattern of ledge, ledge, pole, ledge, pole, platform then coridoor in CD's tomb raider's it seems real dull and unimaginative.
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Old 23-02-08, 19:45   #95
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its because people like to drop in and say "ZOMG! she is so ugly!!11!!!" and "OMG ! her head is too big" with no reason or justification for their opinion/statement. the rest react and we end up discussing whether lara is beautiful or not. so your right we should get back on topic.

i must admit certain points of tra are boring and have that "not this again" feeling, even on the 2nd play through!
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Old 23-02-08, 20:10   #96
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Originally Posted by No_more_bullets View Post
I think the classics used to keep you on the edge of your seat because Lara was harder to control; accidentally brush the wrong button and she'd once more be catapaulted into oblivion. Plus the levels were a lot more surreal (inadvertently so, due to graphical and memory limitations); not as logical as the crystal dynamics games, and this also makes you play the game more tentitively.
I think core's level designs were sometimes a bit haphazard and illogical and i dnt think it was an intentional effort to challenge the player, but more likely due to a lax disposition to the importance of harmonius level design. But in contrast, Crystals level design isn't surreal enough, maybe it's too logical and planned out, which compromises any potential surprise elements.
It amazes me when I hear people claim that in the classic TRs "Lara was harder to control".

READ THIS THREAD it's just one example of people continuously complaining about how difficult the camera/controls are, in Legend and Anniversary.

At least in the classics, if you were knew how to use the buttons the camera wouldn't screw you over, the fact is, in Anniversary in particular even when you press the right sequence of buttons, Lara is not dependable. In the classics you could count on her to do exactly what you directed via the controls. And you didn't have the added concern of the camera moving around on its own volition.

I still think that Lara's right should always be my right, Lara's left should always be my left, regardless of from what the direction the camera is viewing her.

They are soo many actual flaws in the game play and design that it's ridiculous to spend 1 minute of precious time debating how Lara looks.

Last edited by myrmaad; 23-02-08 at 20:36.
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Old 23-02-08, 23:48   #97
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Originally Posted by myrmaad View Post
It amazes me when I hear people claim that in the classic TRs "Lara was harder to control".

READ THIS THREAD it's just one example of people continuously complaining about how difficult the camera/controls are, in Legend and Anniversary.

At least in the classics, if you were knew how to use the buttons the camera wouldn't screw you over, the fact is, in Anniversary in particular even when you press the right sequence of buttons, Lara is not dependable. In the classics you could count on her to do exactly what you directed via the controls. And you didn't have the added concern of the camera moving around on its own volition.
Exactly, 100% what I was thinking

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I still think that Lara's right should always be my right, Lara's left should always be my left, regardless of from what the direction the camera is viewing her.
This is the only thing I disagree with. I get disoriented easily when the camera is at a weird angle and the controls are from the character's perspective. I think the best solution is to just not have weird camera angles (or allow us to break out of them by pressing the "look" button)

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They are soo many actual flaws in the game play and design that it's ridiculous to spend 1 minute of precious time debating how Lara looks.
Very true.
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Old 23-02-08, 23:57   #98
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I think the best solution is to just not have weird camera angles (or allow us to break out of them by pressing the "look" button)
Indeed
Also they could use a lock camera feature, so that you could control the camera, and locking it when you want, in the position you want... Imo this would facilitate the controllability of Lara on the game, especially if that wall run is to continue. If you can lock the camera, then you just need to press the correct buttons to perform the desired action, without having to worry about that camera messing up in the most annoying moments.
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Old 24-02-08, 00:10   #99
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i remembered no long boring corridoors that CD said were in tr1 but removed for tra but im replaying tr1 and i have gone through about 2 long corridors and im on the cistern and on tra there seems to be an endless parade of them.
what i find an ultimatum of fustration is the repetitive gameplay pattern of ledge, ledge, pole, ledge, pole, platform then coridoor in CD's tomb raider's it seems real dull and unimaginative.
I'm so tired of hearing this. Don't act like Core is innocent of that. They are also guilty of dull and unimaginative gameplay design with their "run here, pull switch, run there, pull switch, run, find key, open door, pull switch, run" gameplay. Yes, it is more fun than CD's style, but it's still repetitive and a little annoying.

BTW, the only reason that there are so many long corridors in TR:A is because of loading times. In the original, you could stream two huge areas seamlessly (Huge sphinx - 2 underwater sphinxes, SotS) because of the way the engine and environments were designed, but that's not possible with the new games.
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Old 24-02-08, 01:10   #100
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Originally Posted by myrmaad View Post
At least in the classics, if you were knew how to use the buttons the camera wouldn't screw you over, the fact is, in Anniversary in particular even when you press the right sequence of buttons, Lara is not dependable. In the classics you could count on her to do exactly what you directed via the controls. And you didn't have the added concern of the camera moving around on its own volition.
I dunno. One of the constant gripes from the Core games is the buggy camera. And playing through the games again, I'm forcefully reminded of those fun times when baddies would race down to get Lara, but you couldn't see them because the camera would be pointing to her face on. Remember those times swimming when the camera would jump back and forth between two perspectives and disorient you? There was also a lot of leap-of-faith game-play...

But you're right. Outside of AoD, controls weren't buggy. They were responsive almost all the time. There were a few times though that you'd be swimming underwater and for some reason, she'd roll and turn around though all you were doing was using arrow keys. This has happened to me a few times within the course of two levels. It might just have been an annoyance if I hadn't been attempting to escape mutant eels while running very low on air...

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I still think that Lara's right should always be my right, Lara's left should always be my left, regardless of from what the direction the camera is viewing her.
Agreed! Wall-running in TRA was so difficult because they didn't observe this.
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Originally Posted by Ward Dragon View Post
This is the only thing I disagree with. I get disoriented easily when the camera is at a weird angle and the controls are from the character's perspective. I think the best solution is to just not have weird camera angles (or allow us to break out of them by pressing the "look" button)
If I understand myrmaaaaad correctly, I think that is exactly what she was saying: that the controls shouldn't be from the character's perspective but the player's. That way, your left would ALWAYS be Lara's left, regardless of camera angle. Basically, think of the way Lara runs: like that. Up is always forward, whichever way Lara is facing, so even if she's facing you (rather than with her back to you), you hit up and she runs towards you. I think that is what she meant.

I don't think the look button to reset the camera would work, because when you're moving (like wall-run) the camera angle shifts again, making things difficult.
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Plus the levels were a lot more surreal (inadvertently so, due to graphical and memory limitations); not as logical as the crystal dynamics games, and this also makes you play the game more tentitively.
I think core's level designs were sometimes a bit haphazard and illogical and i dnt think it was an intentional effort to challenge the player, but more likely due to a lax disposition to the importance of harmonius level design. But in contrast, Crystals level design isn't surreal enough, maybe it's too logical and planned out, which compromises any potential surprise elements.
I think you're right in this analysis. The Core games didn't make too much logical sense, did they? And the connections between levels were rather weak most of the time. The storytelling also was pretty weak. I think we will see surreal level design in Underworld, so maybe we'll get the surprise factor back!
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I'm so tired of hearing this. Don't act like Core is innocent of that. They are also guilty of dull and unimaginative gameplay design with their "run here, pull switch, run there, pull switch, run, find key, open door, pull switch, run" gameplay. Yes, it is more fun than CD's style, but it's still repetitive and a little annoying.
Don't forget the ubiquitous block-pushing puzzles. Ya. A lot of the puzzles got rather repetitive. It seems to me that TR4 had the best puzzles, or at least the most ingenuity puzzle-wise in the series. I was honestly stumped a lot of times. I have more puzzles from that TR stamped in my memory than from any other TR.

I would be very happy if I didn't have to see another crate or switch in a TR game. Or any game for that matter. Cheap game-play devices.

Last edited by spelunking; 24-02-08 at 01:12.
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