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Old 12-08-17, 20:40   #181
Cochrane
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I haven't seen anyone argue for laws against Nazis here, actually. The only thing we have in this thread is one person who insists that it's absolutely crucial that it remains legal to be a Nazi. An interesting point of view, to be sure. We tried that approach here in Germany, in the 1920s and 1930s. Someone with such a vast and deep understanding of world history that they even know that Germany once had Nazis and the UK has a royal family will surely know how that turned out.

Edit to add: Of course the US does have unique experience in that area as well. We all know how well the "let's not make it illegal to support the KKK" approach has done in protecting the freedom of black people.

Normally I'd wonder exactly why someone insists that it's so important that, purely hypothetically speaking of course, they would not be fined or imprisoned if it turned out they were a Nazi. But in this particular case I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt and assume that the copy-and-pasted unreflected standard arguments are actually the full extent of understanding involved here.

The truth is that freedom of speech has never been absolute. Harmful speech is forbidden. Shouting fire in a crowded theatre is forbidden (and is explicitly an example given by a US court). Incitement of imminent lawless action is illegal, even in the US. There has always been a red line both for lawmakers and for people using their right of free speech. Making it illegal to be a Nazi is just moving these standards.

I know, I know, many people have heard the term "slippery slope" and think they can appear smart by applying it to almost everything. Because it's completely unbelievable that any red line other than the one set (and moved a few times throughout history!) by the US supreme court could ever hold, despite the clear evidence to the contrary. Or they go "Where do you draw the line?", as if that were a difficult question. I draw the line at literal Nazis. I see no speech worth protecting over the line, and I certainly don't see any grey area.

Of course, this is all hypothetical. Nobody in this thread has argued for laws against Nazis before this post (but honestly, the fact that we have to argue for laws against Nazis is just ridiculous).

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Originally Posted by Mad Tony View Post
In fairness, I haven't seen many people saying that it's un-American to merely criticize them.
I agree, there haven't been many, but even one is one too many. If I misunderstood their point of view, then I would like to apologize to you and any other third parties for the confusion.
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Old 12-08-17, 21:54   #182
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Originally Posted by Cochrane View Post
I haven't seen anyone argue for laws against Nazis here, actually. The only thing we have in this thread is one person who insists that it's absolutely crucial that it remains legal to be a Nazi. An interesting point of view, to be sure. We tried that approach here in Germany, in the 1920s and 1930s. Someone with such a vast and deep understanding of world history that they even know that Germany once had Nazis and the UK has a royal family will surely know how that turned out.

Edit to add: Of course the US does have unique experience in that area as well. We all know how well the "let's not make it illegal to support the KKK" approach has done in protecting the freedom of black people.
There is a vast difference between Germany and the USA regarding Nazis. Here, even when Hitler was all big in the 1930s they were just sort of a right-wing splinter group.

And insofar as the danger of evil Nazis taking over if they are left to run rampant, just let me point out that they didn't "take over" in Germany via a coup, you and all the other good burghers VOTED THEM IN.

We've never voted for totalitarianists here. We don't like such people. They'll never have a major say in American politics because everything they want runs counter to what Americans want. Even righties like Pence and others want nothing to do with National Socialists.

And the corporations pumping money into the political arena sure don't want National Socialists running things. Given the massive depth and breadth of your understanding of history (compared to mine ) I'm sure you will recall how Hitler's government began dictating to the big German companies what they would produce and how much of it.
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Old 12-08-17, 22:37   #183
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Yes, I am indeed over a hundred years old, which is how I could participate in the election of 1933. How did you guess?

Now, I'd just like to remind everyone that the topic here is literally a mob of Nazis holding a march in a town in the US. I'm not talking hypotheticals here, I'm talking about people with flags with swastikas, shouting "blood and soil" and showing the Nazi salute, shouting "hail Trump".

And this is not a new or single event. The KKK has been at very varying levels of power over the decades, but it has been around. So the idea that the US has not had a problem with organized murderous racists is unconvincing, to say the least.

The thing is that Nazis and similar groups (but definitely also including literal Nazis) can cause an awful lot of damage and terror even without being in power.


Since it was brought up: I personally think all the people on Twitter who go "Trump is literally a fascists" are idiots who don't know how fascism works, they just use the worst word they can find that isn't "Hitler" to avoid being accused of reductio ad Hitlerum. He's not even an authoritarian like Erdogan or Maduro. But if someone's trying to tell me that a man with simple xenophobic messages and a strong nationalist bend could never seduce so large a part of the population that he becomes head of government even though he didn't get the majority or plurality of the votes... well, he does serve as a nice counter-example, doesn't he?
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Old 13-08-17, 06:43   #184
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JK Rowling drills a new one in Dump:
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/statu...06206901833729

the spineless Paul Ryan finally says something correct:
https://twitter.com/SpeakerRyan/stat...09908383911936

Richard Spencers Nazi ass getting arrested:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDCcipXgAMsA5e.jpg

https://twitter.com/funder/status/896410967092940802
Video: Alt-right marcher shouting "Heil, Trump" while waving nazi salute



Hmm. Trump is quick to say vile things about Muslims, Mexicans, POC, Hillary...but so somber when it comes to saying ANYTHING about ISIS, Putin, and Nazi's/White Supremacists. What a ****ing pussycat.
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Old 13-08-17, 06:58   #185
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Originally Posted by Cochrane View Post
Yes, I am indeed over a hundred years old, which is how I could participate in the election of 1933. How did you guess?
By you, I mean a German, and Germans in general.

And I really don't get why you and others keep insisting that what happened in the past is irrelevant, like you are all so much more advanced and sophisticated now, and everything is different. History is a continuum. You are living in it. Living in history.

Did any of your great-grandparents vote for Hitler? I'll bet I could find SOMEONE amongst your predecessors who did. Not that I am trying to make a moral point, it's just that you can't ignore the past.

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Now, I'd just like to remind everyone that the topic here is literally a mob of Nazis holding a march in a town in the US. I'm not talking hypotheticals here, I'm talking about people with flags with swastikas, shouting "blood and soil" and showing the Nazi salute, shouting "hail Trump".

And this is not a new or single event. The KKK has been at very varying levels of power over the decades, but it has been around. So the idea that the US has not had a problem with organized murderous racists is unconvincing, to say the least.
I'll be the first to admit that the USA is far from squeaky clean when it comes to the treatment of minorities. A lot of this is the legacy of slavery, and none of your European countries has had to deal with the phenomenon of large scale slavery. We should have dealt with it at the very beginning, but we didn't, and as a result, we fought a bloody civil war almost a century later because of it. Fortunately, the North (the side my people were on) won the war.

But, we have had a lot of ongoing problems since, trying to deal with this legacy. And unfortunately there are those who think the solution is to put people like Lance back in the fields chopping cotton. But that's not going to happen.

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The thing is that Nazis and similar groups (but definitely also including literal Nazis) can cause an awful lot of damage and terror even without being in power.
When they DO translate words into heinous deeds then we act - we arrest them, and send them to prison. The idiot who rammed his car into the protestors will be spending a lot of time in prison, probably around a bunch of large angry black men.

But we don't pre-empt freedom of speech. Yes that would be convenient, but it was convenient to put leftists and homosexuals and Jews into camps in Nazi Germany too, in order to "save" society.

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Since it was brought up: I personally think all the people on Twitter who go "Trump is literally a fascists" are idiots who don't know how fascism works, they just use the worst word they can find that isn't "Hitler" to avoid being accused of reductio ad Hitlerum. He's not even an authoritarian like Erdogan or Maduro. But if someone's trying to tell me that a man with simple xenophobic messages and a strong nationalist bend could never seduce so large a part of the population that he becomes head of government even though he didn't get the majority or plurality of the votes... well, he does serve as a nice counter-example, doesn't he?
Unfortunately Trump's election has emboldened these sorts of people. But even though Trump appeared to pander to them during the election you don't really see him trying to implement Nazi-style policies, do you? Got any pictures of him shaking hands with neo-Nazis, with a Swastika in the background, or even a Klansman with a Confederate flag? No? That's because it was basically more of the bull**** he was spewing while trying to win the election. Trump is about the money, fundamentally, just like all right-leaning rich people in the USA. Ideology is strictly for the peasants.
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Old 13-08-17, 07:41   #186
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There's nothing wrong with bringing up history... if one actually understands it. Constantly bringing up history of which one only knows the basic outlines and then acting all smug because of it is just insufferable crap.

I know a lot of people, americans generally, who think the conclusion to be drawn from World War II is, "I'm glad I'm not German!" Apparently these folks think that because only Germany had Nazis, Nazis are only possible in Germany. The real lesson of that time would be how seductive simple racist philosophies can be in times of crisis. How people can be blind to erosion of liberties (de jure or de facto) if it doesn't affect them yet. How turning a blind eye to hate helps legitimize murder. These are lessons that are applicable to all countries, not just Germany.

Of course, learning these lessons requires actually understanding history instead of just learning the barest minimum to recite on cue and then thinking comparisons between random misunderstood points and random misunderstood facts about today makes you insightful.



Okay, I've done this passive-aggressive stuff long enough. It's time to really blow up, come what may, because you cannot believe how utterly angry I am at your ignorance now:

**** that ****, **** you for saying it, and **** the entire mindset and lack of education that led to you ever typing this crap. You know, I've been sick and tired of your bull**** for years now, and I don't think I've ever been clear enough about that because every once in a while you were amusing or you annoyed people that I also found annoying. I would like to apologize for that; I should have called you a useless ****ing idiot far sooner.

You're not insightful. You don't understand history. You certainly don't understand Europe. I'm fairly sure you don't understand the US. You don't understand freedom. You're not an intellectual. You're not challenging anyone's assumptions. You're simply stupid as hell.

I've been thinking about saying that out loud for a while now, and I didn't because I know deep down that it won't help. But this part here finally drove me over the line:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Launcelot View Post
When they DO translate words into heinous deeds then we act - we arrest them, and send them to prison. The idiot who rammed his car into the protestors will be spending a lot of time in prison, probably around a bunch of large angry black men.

But we don't pre-empt freedom of speech. Yes that would be convenient, but it was convenient to put leftists and homosexuals and Jews into camps in Nazi Germany too, in order to "save" society.
You really don't see the difference between arresting Nazis and mass murder? You really think it's equivalent to fine someone for saying "all Jews should die" and actually murdering all Jews? You really think you can somehow construct a slippery slope from fighting Nazis that leads to the literal Holocaust? **** you.

Or maybe you don't actually think that, or anything at all. You're just trying to provoke me here, and your thought process is "loss of human rights is bad. What is the worst loss of human rights? Oh, right the holocaust. So let's compare it to that to make my example extra-crass!" You ignore all the parts that make your comparison not just invalid and stupid, but offensive, because you don't care about anything but getting a reaction. Well, you got your reaction. Hope you feel proud. Now **** off.

For completeness sake, of course it is possible that you're the kind of Nazi who actually thinks that letting Nazis walk through a town centre is a good thing that should be allowed. I don't think so in your case; I think you're the kind of stupid kid that doesn't care one way or another as long as they have found a way to go, "well, actually..." and feel smug about it.

For the record: The whole question of where you should put the limits of free speech and what the consequences of that are is an interesting topic, and I'd be happy to discuss this with a grown-up, if I don't get banned for this post (if I do, it'll have been worth it).

But when someone says "Nazis are bad", going "But 1st amendment!" does not make you insightful, it makes you a Nazi supporter, intentional or not.
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Old 13-08-17, 07:53   #187
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I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this, but I'll probubly post later as I'd like to have a drama free weekend. I will say the two things that angry me the most right now is the media, (yes including fox news) and the general narrative that is being pushed right now.
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Old 13-08-17, 09:05   #188
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We are at the brink of a Nuclear War, Nazis run around in America...we can count ourselfs lucky if the world still stands 2018.

No, its truly scary to see how a country can fall so far down in just a few months...especially a country like America.

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Old 13-08-17, 09:49   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Launcelot View Post
By you, I mean a German, and Germans in general.

And I really don't get why you and others keep insisting that what happened in the past is irrelevant, like you are all so much more advanced and sophisticated now, and everything is different. History is a continuum. You are living in it. Living in history.

Did any of your great-grandparents vote for Hitler? I'll bet I could find SOMEONE amongst your predecessors who did. Not that I am trying to make a moral point, it's just that you can't ignore the past.
Of course history is relevant, but you constantly bring it up and try to use it to justify your positions when most of the time it's totally irrelevant.

You're also totally contradicting yourself. On the one hand you're saying "we shouldn't restrict free speech and ban Nazis" (which I do partially agree with btw) but then right after that you go on a rant about how Germany let the Nazis in so easily in the 1930s. You're criticizing Germany both for being too harsh on Nazism but also not harsh enough.

The silly thing is it's not like I totally disagree with everything you say. Free speech is important and I think it sets a bad precedent to simply ban Nazism outright. However, the way you put these arguments across is nonsensical.

But really, how is Germany even relevant to this discussion? And this is another of your problems: you treat people's opinions as if all part of some national blob. You don't treat people as individuals. Yes I expect Cochrane's views on Nazism and free speech are somewhat shaped by his experience of growing up in Germany but there are also plenty of Americans who take a far more extreme position.

You need to stop engaging with people as countries and instead engage with them as individuals.
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Old 13-08-17, 09:51   #190
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Mani Man: I think that's exaggerating it a bit. Every country has dangerous extremists at the fringes, the US included, and that is nothing new. And since the US is so big, the fringes are bigger (in absolute numbers) as well. Right now we just notice more because a) a fringe nutjob is president, but also because these fringe nutjobs are being challenged more and more often, and this is their reaction. Consider the root cause here: The city of Charlottesville is considering whether they should remove a statue of a civil war general who fought for slavery. That is a good development, even if it is amazing that it took this long. The result is that the fringe groups find it difficult to keep acting as the friendly neighbors with weird views of immigrants, and have to start openly acting as the actual hateful mob they've always been.

That is certainly terrifying if you look at it here, and it must be fought. But overall, this is all a reaction to a status quo that is changing for the better. These people are chanting "we will not be replaced". Who is replacing them? Nobody, obviously, but in a broader sense, once their point of view was respected and mainstream, but that is being replaced. It's no coincidence that the tea party and the alt right started when Obama became president, and so did Trump's rise as a political figure.

The US is finally having debates about the civil war legacy, about institutionalized racism, police brutality and so on that it should been having decades ago. It's obvious that this is generating an awful lot of really scary pushback. But this seems to be part of a big generational shift in values that will ultimately be for the better.

Unless Trump really does decide to nuke North Korea, obviously...
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