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Old 23-02-17, 22:02   #111
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To be fair, where to go wasn't really a mystery in the original games either. One of the first things you notice in the Cistern is that crevice across the way, which you know you're going to shimmy along. It's the "white ledge" of its day. In truth, ledges abounded in the old games. The big difference, was you had to understand the moves to be successful in getting there, and you had to tell Lara what to do completely. The ledges weren't hidden, but the challenge lay in navigation.

CD's mistake was making the level control Lara. CD didn't want you grabbing that totally grabable looking ledge? Lara won't try. She'll do some silly hop rather actually jump and grab. One of my favorite things about TRU was the chimney jump: Lara would try it anywhere. I'd find two things marginally close together and Lara would chimney jump them. Good times!
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Old 23-02-17, 23:31   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis's Mom View Post
To be fair, where to go wasn't really a mystery in the original games either. One of the first things you notice in the Cistern is that crevice across the way, which you know you're going to shimmy along. It's the "white ledge" of its day. In truth, ledges abounded in the old games. The big difference, was you had to understand the moves to be successful in getting there, and you had to tell Lara what to do completely. The ledges weren't hidden, but the challenge lay in navigation.

CD's mistake was making the level control Lara. CD didn't want you grabbing that totally grabable looking ledge? Lara won't try. She'll do some silly hop rather actually jump and grab. One of my favorite things about TRU was the chimney jump: Lara would try it anywhere. I'd find two things marginally close together and Lara would chimney jump them. Good times!
The cistern example isn't really the best because it is like 1 time in the whole series (well, maybe there are some more at least in TR1, but you can't say that kind of obvious path isn't the most common thing in the classics and TR1 is also the easiest game of all them).

And yeah, grabable things in the classics were kinda obvious. But everything was grabable, so you couldn't tell if that was the right path. You had to try. That doesn't happen in underworld. There is an obvious path of ledges and climbable walls every time. And there are ledges in places that shouldn't have. They aren't even symetrical, they don't follow any kind of order, they are shore thumbs every single time. They are completely arbitrary just because if Lara doesn't have to go somewhere, they won't make ledges to that way. IDK if I'm explaining...

Like this:


There is only 1 possible path. They don't even try to hide it, they just put some "random" (aesthetically) ledges so you can follow the way. And you can tell in a single look. You don't even have to look around because the moment you see those bright white ledges you know that's the way to go. I know that's not the best example but I can't find many Underworld images.

Whereas in the classics you would have plenty of ledges and platforms and not everyone lead you to the right place (most noticeably in TR3 and 4, but also in 2 and 5), so you had to look around and plan your movements.

It also has to do with what you said about the rules in the movement and such, but the level design plays a big role, and I think Underworld's level design is still pretty far from the classics.
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Old 28-02-17, 14:34   #113
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That's sort of what I said. The level controls Lara. You don't.

And it's not the the ledges are visible. It's that those are are the only things you can interact with. So you don't explore, you follow the path.
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Old 03-03-17, 05:40   #114
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^ I have to agree with this. I've been playing the classics recently and TR1 is not as hard as I imagined it would be but the sense of exploration is still there. That's why I finished all of the Optional Challenge tombs as quickly as I found them in Rise... they were the best part. I only wish there were more of them for us to discover.

Spoiler: If anyone's played Blood Ties, I loved the style in which the puzzle solving worked. You had to explore and dig into the history of Croft Manor to solve the puzzles and I loved that. It actually made me feel like I was doing something rather than just pushing and pulling a bunch of things. I'd be interested to see how that would work in an actual tomb setting with Lara having to find documents and artifacts, forcing the players to solve the mystery of said tomb to solve the puzzle.
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Old 03-03-17, 19:51   #115
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I miss fun Lara - the Rise of the Tomb Raider is a good game, but Lara is so dreary and emotionally unstable!
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Old 03-03-17, 20:15   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESCachuli View Post
The cistern example isn't really the best because it is like 1 time in the whole series (well, maybe there are some more at least in TR1, but you can't say that kind of obvious path isn't the most common thing in the classics and TR1 is also the easiest game of all them).

And yeah, grabable things in the classics were kinda obvious. But everything was grabable, so you couldn't tell if that was the right path. You had to try. That doesn't happen in underworld. There is an obvious path of ledges and climbable walls every time. And there are ledges in places that shouldn't have. They aren't even symetrical, they don't follow any kind of order, they are shore thumbs every single time. They are completely arbitrary just because if Lara doesn't have to go somewhere, they won't make ledges to that way. IDK if I'm explaining...

Like this:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/CkHNGf5.jpg[/IMG

There is only 1 possible path. They don't even try to hide it, they just put some "random" (aesthetically) ledges so you can follow the way. And you can tell in a single look. You don't even have to look around because the moment you see those bright white ledges you know that's the way to go. I know that's not the best example but I can't find many Underworld images.

Whereas in the classics you would have plenty of ledges and platforms and not everyone lead you to the right place (most noticeably in TR3 and 4, but also in 2 and 5), so you had to look around and plan your movements.

It also has to do with what you said about the rules in the movement and such, but the level design plays a big role, and I think Underworld's level design is still pretty far from the classics.
Tomb Raider Anniversary is a prime example for how to not design a level.
Ledges are placed just for the sake of going from A to B.
I could tolerate white/visible ledges if they fit properly into the environment.
But in 5 games they haven't managed it. Symmetry is often a key design element in ancient structures. But you only have one visible ledge on one side and the other is undiscoverable. This happens very often in the new games.


In this picture you can see how they abused the ledges. I for myself think "no civilization would decorate a column like this"
Only the very upper ledge fits imo and is absolutely acceptable.

edit: The Problem in TRU was not the gameplay.
At least I think that the Gameplay was quite okay (Especially Thailand and Mexico) but only after Mexico.
the rest of the game consists of long boring hallways with nothing but """"secrets"""" in every urn.
Jan Mayen, Helheim, Niflheim(well, Niflheim wasn't that boring, it had a lot of ledge hopping though) were most of the time running/driving through corridors.
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Last edited by Rai; 03-03-17 at 20:26.
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Old 03-03-17, 22:41   #117
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If every level of Underworld was like Thailand and Mexico , then I can totally see Underworld being in my top 5 even with its ****ty story .
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