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Old 24-03-18, 15:18   #51
larafan25
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Originally Posted by BigR4444 View Post
Well, Iwanex's point, which I happen to agree with, has nothing to do with CD or their creative choices theyve made, or havent made... its about us, the fans.
The point was; there are these big changes that thryve made to the franchise, and certain TR fans have noisily objected to those changes, citing the dramatic departure from certain elements...
And then those same people see some drastic risk or outside the box idea, like the idea suggested by this thread, and complain that CD was unwilling to pull the trigger...

They complain about the things CD does change, and then they complain about the things they dont change...

Irony is a decent word to describe it.
Hypocrisy might be better
You are right. Though a better word would be contradiction, not irony.

When you look at a flurry of different opinions, and try to group them together as one force, you are going to be met with obvious contradictions.

People have differing opinions, and these opinions are contextual and ever-changing. Nobody commenting here, no matter how long or often they have been here, really, truly knows the steady opinion that any one of us holds. There isn't enough true consistency to discern much irony.

And yes, for Crystal Dynamics to use any of these opinions as direction would never result in a game that pleases everyone.

Now. Who's opinion do you want? Who's opinion is valid? Yours? Mine? Crystal's? Because frankly, unless it's Tomb Raider, it's an opinion. And right now, it seems that many in this section value the opinion of an elusive group of "casual gamers". I don't understand why.

So long as Crystal Dynamics remain brand-centric, they are in a jungle without a map. And if you don't care where you go, this is not a problem.
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Old 24-03-18, 15:54   #52
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I find it ironic how some people around here talk about CD not being risk takers creatively, yet those same people will bash them for every single little thing that they have the nerve to change from their beloved classics.

I don't even want to imagine what is like to be a talented developer like CD, wanting to try new things and take big risks by adding more and more new and exciting things to the franchise, yet part of the fandom is still screaming bloody murder about Lara not having a braid after 10+ years with a ponytail.
That isn't the problem I think. I'd really like to understand the inner conflict that happens in people's minds and hearts for bashing and praising something at the same breath. The same people you see bashing and criticizing CD, their new Lara and games, calling them generic, uninspired or whatever, are the same people who cannot contain their curiosity, interest and EXCITEMENT about SOTTR and the new movie in other threads. I'm not saying one should have a 100% positive or 100% negative opinion about something, but the lack of consistency is confusing. It's like they can't decide which "subgroup" of the TR community they're gonna side with, so that explains the love-hate relationship they supposedly have.
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Old 24-03-18, 18:07   #53
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I'd be the first to admit that the reboot games are pretty mainstream , but the important question is : Tomb Raider 1 aside , when has any Tomb Raider game brought major innovative elements that were never done before in games that were released alongside it each year ?

Let's see , Tomb Raider 1 : A truly revolutionary game and a trend-setter that defined an era , keeping in mind that it had no competition in its genre and games weren't as copious as today .

What happened after that ? Eidos kept rushing Core to release a new game each year , newer games were starting to rise , new trends were becoming popular and Tomb Raider was starting to fall behind , which brings us to AOD . Core were super ambitious in this game , they strove to make perceptible changes , and to appeal to the gaming community (NOT just the fans) who were beginning to have different expectations from the games they play , this is why AOD was very story-driven , this is why it had a completely different tone from the classics , this is why gameplay was noticeably a lot easier and more forgiving , RPG elements were a main pillar etc . Now looking back at it after all this time , 95% of what Core tried to do with AOD was cutting-edge and risky compared to the previous TR games , but it was incredibly safe and uncreative compared to the games that defined that period , AOD followed popular trends and tried to cater to the new expectations to revive the series again exactly like the reboot , but we all know what happened next .

LAU ? What new , revolutionary and innovative stuff did it bring to the gaming industry ? Nothing . Simple as that . It ditched the old controls , Lara was smoother and more fluid , gameplay became even easier than AOD , and it was heavily inspired by the incredibly popular Prince of Persia Franchise at that time .

Tomb Raider started to fall short again , TR2013 stepped in and tried to do exactly what AOD tried to do years ago , the major difference in the outcome is that TR2013 was a success whereas AOD was a failure .

What I'm trying to say (which is my personal opinion anyway) : There's nothing original , completely new and incredibly creative in the gaming industry anymore , sad but true . Tomb Raider 1 is the only creative game in the franchise , aside from that one , Tomb Raider games throughout the years were never known for breaking the mold and shocking the crowds with each installment , which brings me to my primary point : The reboot games are receiving a lot more criticism in that regard than they actually deserve , they didn't bring anything 100% new to the gaming industry that's never been done before , but neither did any Tomb Raider game since TR2 . One would say : "But AOD and LAU retained the classic elements of the franchise" , which is open for debate but let me assume that it's right , would the reboot games bringing back the classic elements of the franchise be of any use ? My answer is NO , because bringing back elements that date back to the 90s isn't breaking the mold in anyway , well...I believe it's self-explanatory ? How could bringing back old elements equal innovation and creativity ? You're not inventing or creating new stuff , you're simply reusing or at best re-implementing old stuff .

I've given hope long ago on originality and creativity in video games , films and books . Everything's been done to death , it's a sad thing that I've come to accept , because if I hadn't , I wouldn't be able to enjoy any new game , film or any entertainment product in general .

Last edited by Patrick star; 24-03-18 at 22:11.
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Old 24-03-18, 19:19   #54
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If "the fans" are or were begging for change with Tomb Raider, then how can you even begin to separate or define who is or is not a fan? Is a fan not someone who enjoys it? Then how can they want something other than it?

In such a situation there are truly no fans.

Why is there anyone who wants the elusive "it" to be something totally unexpected each time around?

There is a difference between a different character, and the character of Lara Croft experiencing a surprising new twist. I think sometimes y'all don't get that.

But here we are.
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Old 24-03-18, 20:21   #55
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Originally Posted by BigR4444 View Post
They complain about the things CD does change, and then they complain about the things they dont change...

Irony is a decent word to describe it.
Hypocrisy might be better
I am against the concept in the OP but I think there is a key idea that you missed. Looking at TRs genre's as an example, TR1-TRU are primarily platformer/puzzle and the reboot games are 3PS. A genre shift could be described as a big risk for TR but equally you could say the original platformer or puzzle direction is far more risky and novel than a 3PS. Which is the gutsy choice? It could be argued both ways.

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How could bringing back old elements equal innovation and creativity ? You're not inventing or creating new stuff , you're simply reusing or at best re-implementing old stuff.
Look at Pokémon Sun/Moon, Sonic Mania, Mario Kart whatever number etc. Some of the most fun games happen when developers go back to that pure concept and bring it. Celebrate the uniqueness of your series even if the games don't show too much uniqueness from each other. If it's unique to TR then that brings a freshness of its own with the challenge tombs being TR's most recent representation of that. Other 3PS games wouldn't put that in so that is where you can carve something creative and unique.

Last edited by Error96; 24-03-18 at 20:44.
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Old 25-03-18, 07:25   #56
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tbh, the reboot was a risk and a big change needed for the franchise as Underworld did not deliver expected sales. It was too risky to try something totally new like that for a game that already had its own risks and so much on the line. The reboot pretty much HAD to be a success or we may have had the whole franchise sold off again or worse.

Granted, I think this idea/ technology is amazing and I most certainly would love to see it implemented in a future Tomb Raider game, but I don't think CD were bad for not adding it to the reboot. They already went a completely new direction with the series, it would have been an overload to try to create a brand new innovation with it.
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Old 25-03-18, 09:32   #57
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Plus , let me add that none of the new additions in the reboot games caught me as particularly anti-tomb raider . In fact , a lot of them were inspired by elements from the previous tomb raider games themselves :

Hubs that we revisit at different times when we have the right gear/item : TR4 and GoL .
Axes : The classic crowbar .
Combining items to create new ones : TR4 and TR5 .
Stealth and silent finishers : AOD and TR5 .
Building Lara up by RPG elements : AOD .
Bow with different ammo : TR4's crossbow .

Just to name a few .
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Old 25-03-18, 09:39   #58
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To CD's defense, it really doesn't make sense to incorporate this in a Tomb Raider game ( or Uncharted / any game that's built around globe-trotting).

For it to work, the camera physically has to move and quickly pass by airports, mountains ....etc to the new location. Furthermore, this might mean that we cannot see what is happening in the " now " if other characters other than the protagonist for example are assembling unless the camera does the same thing.

It's a cool technique, sure but it's really unecessary for TR and I don't think CD should go through that hassle just to check " a cool feature " off their list.

Last edited by Mr Tomb; 25-03-18 at 09:41.
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Old 25-03-18, 10:10   #59
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To CD's defense, it really doesn't make sense to incorporate this in a Tomb Raider game ( or Uncharted / any game that's built around globe-trotting).
Aren't you forgetting one little thing there? The 2013 reboot game didn't have any location change. Its entire story took place on the island.

And even so, you could trick your way around that. Have the camera get really close to Lara while slowly spinning around her, for example, so the back of her head fills the screen and then when you zoom out, she's somewhere else. Or zoom in on her bag at the end of one location, switch it to the beginning of the next location and zoom out. If you wanted to do this, there'd be plenty of ways that you could.
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Old 25-03-18, 10:20   #60
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Aren't you forgetting one little thing there? The 2013 reboot game didn't have any location change. Its entire story took place on the island.

And even so, you could trick your way around that. Have the camera get really close to Lara while slowly spinning around her, for example, so the back of her head fills the screen and then when you zoom out, she's somewhere else. Or zoom in on her bag at the end of one location, switch it to the beginning of the next location and zoom out. If you wanted to do this, there'd be plenty of ways that you could.
The entire story took place on the island but there were still cuts in between which is the principle of my argument.
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