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Old 07-12-21, 11:54   #1
dg1995
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Default The myth that AOD could be saved with more delays...

Do you believe it ?

I personally don't. Because delaying AOD was beneficial only if Core used that extra time to fix and improve the gameplay from what it was.

If Core got more time they would just focus more on adding more content/features/areas than fixing the game.

I'm sure that if they had more than 1 year delay they probably would have scrapped the game again.(With PoP 2003 release they obviously would lose their confidence and scrap the game once more time.)
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Old 07-12-21, 12:35   #2
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I would probably have to meet a group of people before judging them like that
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Old 07-12-21, 13:11   #3
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Core was already scrapping content left and right because of the mandate to have it released by The Cradle of Life's release. They didn't have time to properly implement what they did have, so essentially features were either shut off if they didn't work properly or removed entirely. Like Kurtis' powers besides Farsee, which was relegated to cutscenes only. I believe I've heard from someone that Richard Morton actually had to do a pass at the very end of development just to make sure the game could be played from start to finish. As in it could be, not how feasible it was. That must've been grueling for him.

It took them a while to get used to working with the PS2's limitations (which as I've mentioned before, was the lead development platform). But in early 2003, they apparently were finally starting to get the hang of it and were on course to deliver at the very least a finished (as in, playable gameplay and coherent story beats) by November-December. Then the mandate to have it out by June for CoL's release happened. If they missed that deadline too, they probably would've lost their jobs anyway.

I do believe that, given what little we know about the state of late development, they could've delivered a finished product if just given a little more time. Yes, there was strife between the team out the wazoo and a lot of them were fighting each other constantly. But this was also a team who was trying to make the most of a situation they had. Core never once received any breaks from Tomb Raider after its initial release. Up until AOD, it was forced annual releases. Can you imagine how sick and tired they must've been of doing the almost exact same thing every single year? Jumping straight from development of one game in the same series to another? They were also never given not a single second chance after AOD, while this happens all the time now with other developers. And there have been many other examples of disastrous launches long after AOD's release, too.

But, as the fans have proved with what's been possible in 18 years, Core could've probably done much faster if given more time. They're not entirely free of blame, but their part in it is the result of a disgruntled team who really wanted to take the series to new heights and a different direction. Eidos was a very stupid publisher. Whether they were on the verge of bankruptcy the entire time doesn't matter. You can't treat developers that way and expect things to just pull off fantastically every single time. But that's what kept them afloat, so they did it. Year after year after year...

Last edited by Jathom95; 07-12-21 at 13:20.
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Old 07-12-21, 13:58   #4
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They didn't have time ?
They had 4 years from 1999-2003 to make whatever game they wanted and in the end they made AOD.
By comparison, Rockstar made GTA VC in 1 year and GTA SA in 2 years.

Plus, they weren't exactly making the "same game" from 1996-2000. Each TR game added it's own new stuff and was a different experience than the previous game.

They did a really awesome job with those yearly TR games that those TR games are still the peak of the franchise. (At that time 1 year was ideal to make sequels for PS1 games, Final Fantasy 7 was made in 1 year)

We also should consider this that that claim that "Core was tired by TR" isn't completely honest. Because the team that made TR 1 and 2 quit making TR games and another team replaced them for TR 3,4,5.
And AOD had lots of new employees working on it.
That claim is like saying "Capcom should stop making RE games because they are tired of making RE games for 25 consequent years".
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Old 07-12-21, 14:00   #5
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Would a delay fix all of its issues? No, I don't think so but it certainly could have fixed some of it's worst issues. I think core was pretty aware of the issues with the controls, camera etc. so I do think they would have improved those. Not to mention all the stuff they cut very close to release, those could have probably been finished with just a bit more time.
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Old 07-12-21, 14:06   #6
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^ Exactly. Stuff like Germany and Castle Kriegler would've obviously always ended up on the cutting room floor. But, they were aware of a lot of what's wrong with the game. Look at certain things with the story. Like the one everyone mentions about Lara knowing Karel's name despite them never meeting before that point.

Core had planned to do the exact same thing Reborn and TRJTA did with Restoration and include the pictures of all the members of the Cabal on Luddick's dossier. You can look at the original dossier texture created by them and see it. They only cropped the rest of them out and zoomed it in in-game because it still had Luther Rouzic on it. And when he was hastily removed from AOD's plot, they probably didn't have time to make another one omitting him. So they ended up focusing on the two most important people on it instead.

AOD might not have released perfectly even then, but I have no doubt it would've been in a much better state.

Last edited by Jathom95; 07-12-21 at 15:42.
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Old 07-12-21, 14:27   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dg1995 View Post
They didn't have time ?
They had 4 years from 1999-2003 to make whatever game they wanted and in the end they made AOD.
By comparison, Rockstar made GTA VC in 1 year and GTA SA in 2 years.

Plus, they weren't exactly making the "same game" from 1996-2000. Each TR game added it's own new stuff and was a different experience than the previous game.

They did a really awesome job with those yearly TR games that those TR games are still the peak of the franchise. (At that time 1 year was ideal to make sequels for PS1 games, Final Fantasy 7 was made in 1 year)

We also should consider this that that claim that "Core was tired by TR" isn't completely honest. Because the team that made TR 1 and 2 quit making TR games and another team replaced them for TR 3,4,5.
And AOD had lots of new employees working on it.
That claim is like saying "Capcom should stop making RE games because they are tired of making RE games for 25 consequent years".
Yes, and why do you think the original team left? It certainly wasn't just to broaden their horizons. And the TR3 onwards team wasn't thrilled I'm sure of being put in the same place. They tried to kill off Lara at the end of TR4 in either an attempt to take an extended break from the series, or that they were done with Tomb Raider and wanted to do other things. Chronicles was only made because Eidos wanted another Tomb Raider a year later.

You might not consider them the same games as a player, and indeed they all do have differences between them. But consider, as a developer, being able to only really make miniscule differences in the engine and Lara's move set each successive game isn't really a thrilling concept. They were trying to go all out with AOD because of that specific reason. That's why they released the Level Editor, they were through making games in that format. I also fail to see how RE is a relevant comparison. Capcom is another large developer that can afford to have been making those types of games year after year alongside whatever else they wanted, and they also published their own games. Core didn't have the manpower to do any other releases alongside Tomb Raider since Eidos kept them chugging away at them annually.

You're also leaving out context about the state of development. Core was not Rockstar, with at company of their size even in 2003-4. They were a small group of people of about 100-150 or so by AOD. And with development itself, there was the issue that the Core veterans were pressed to do Chronicles while the new guys who apparently didn't know anything about the constraints they were working with regarding the PS2, worked on the early stages of AOD development. When the Core veterans had finished Chronicles, they saw what the new guys had created and reportedly had to throw all of it out and start over by 2001 because none of it was usable.

Last edited by Jathom95; 07-12-21 at 14:35.
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Old 07-12-21, 15:20   #8
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It's pretty hard to say, since we already know that the majority of the blame lies in Core themselves being unorganized and not having management keeping a close eye on the development. It was their biggest undertaking yet back then, and they fell flat.

Now, considering the state AOD was when it released, a year might have been enough to fix what was wrong, but it surely would not be enough to make AOD be the game it was meant to be.

AOD was too ambitious for its own good, all the while having a lot going against it, a really dumb and greedy publisher, dev team lacking of experience in such big projects, TR5 having to be made taking away experienced people during the very start of development, and all that jazz of Sony sending them the wrong hardware specs and yada yada. The game was doomed since day one and the fault lies in both Core and Eidos.

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Old 07-12-21, 15:28   #9
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I woke up this morning and looked at TRFs, and due to my display settings I at first only saw part of a new thread's title in the AOD section: "The myth..." and here I thought with pure excitement: "Oooh goody, Murti and Ash have finished and released "The Myth of El Hawa." But alas, no, it's just another debate thread about if AOD would have been a better game or not had there been more time.

Regardless, you do make some interesting points OP, but I really doubt that had Core been given an extra year, they would've scrapped most of what they had and then re-done everything just to add more or make the game the same as the 2003 Prince of Persia release. I really doubt that after all the work Murti and the rest of the team went through in order to condense the story/game down to only Paris and Prague that suddenly with an extra year's time frame they'd have focused less on perfecting those two locations and instead added in Germany and Turkey again.

In fact, judging by the dates of a lot of Murti's docs, and also the concept art, there actually isn't that much concept and planning for Germany and Turkey - at least not compared to Paris and Prague. So, I think it's safe to say that first Turkey, and then Germany, were also cut pretty early on and not close to crunch time.

Had Core been given an extra year, hell, even an extra 6 months or just 3 months, I think they could've made some incredible fixes and changes to the Paris-Prague AOD that we ended up getting - similar to the fan patches that enhance the retail version as Jathom has pointed out. They would have had the source code, which we don't, so the slow fixes that fans have made over the years such as Nakamichi, Reborn, TRJTA, LateRaider, Slasher, and others, would have been implemented at a much quicker rate.

The only problem I see, regardless of time, are AOD's tank controls, which I personally LOVE because they're so similar to the first five TRs. But, I understand that this would have still been panned by critics as being archaic no matter how many other bugs would have been fixed. Gamers wanted something like POP when it came to platforming, which is what Legend ended up delivering. I doubt AOD's controls is something Core would've changed much even with the successful release of games such as POP, simply because they had built it into their game from the ground up - it was just their style. But who knows? Maybe they would've changed it, or at the very least improved upon it.

But again, an extra year or extra 3-6 months, had there not being pressure due to the movie, or competition from a game like POP, would have made all the difference. I really doubt Kurtis' abilities would have been slashed in the way they were. Same goes for some of the AI and stealth mechanics, and so the game that we would have gotten would have ended up living up to all the promises they had made in marketing leading up to AODs release. I don't think they would have tried to build or add more to the game (with the exception of the final boss level perhaps) but I do think they would have perfected what was already in place and been able to re-introduce some of the mechanics they had to butcher, and for which they already had all the animations.

To summarize, I don't think it's a "myth" that AOD could have been saved with more delays. I do think a few extra months of delay would have helped immensely. Now, if we want to discuss "myths" about AOD, here is something: I do think it's a myth that they had an entire trilogy worked out from the start. One look at Murti's notes, especially his ideas for the sequel and what he wrote in Meagan's 20th Anniversary book, make it clear that most things planned for Games 2 and 3 were just the scrapped pieces from the first game's early concepts. So, I will admit that AOD fans (myself included) often put the idea of a "trilogy" on a bit too high of a pedestal. But that is a conversation for another day.

Last edited by .snake.; 07-12-21 at 15:32.
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Old 07-12-21, 15:52   #10
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Yes, I actually agree with that last part. The whole deal with a trilogy probably only came about closer towards the later stages of development when it was evident there'd be absolutely no way to cover all of Murti's ideas in a single game. With the time and manpower they had, at least.

But I'm firmly in the camp that more time could've only been beneficial to refine what they already had, as snake pointed out. The upgrade system, great example here. That also went a similar route to Kurtis' powers. They had to scrap the entire upgrade system other than the strength upgrades very late in development because there wasn't enough time to design the game around it, other than in the most barebones way possible like retail (and I still personally love it anyway.)

I'm also of the opinion that I don't think they would've lost sight of the state development was in and suddenly try to bite off even more than they could chew. If that were the case, AOD would've released even worse than it did originally if they just kept trying to add things right up until release.

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