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Old 13-09-17, 18:52   #4321
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Originally Posted by Sir Launcelot View Post
Well, he didn't hoodwink the "in-the-know" conservatives. You yourself were screaming about his "hijacking" of the Republican Party before his election, and so were a bunch of people in the party itself.

But the people have spoken. They're not always right. Sometimes, democracy sucks.
It wasn't a case of some people being "in-the-know" and others not. This isn't about intelligence or knowledge. If anything it's more down to personality. If you look at conservatives who went with Trump and those that didn't, there isn't really much of a pattern. There were lots of "moderate" conservatives who were NeverTrump but quite a few who supported him. Likewise, there were some hardcore conservatives who never got on board while others did. If you look back at past Republican nominees, someone who supported Bush for example could reasonably be assumed to have supported McCain and Romney too, and vice versa. That's not always the case with Trump.

I think a lot of it comes down to identity politics. If you're a conservative and all you care about is "winning" and getting one over on the other side then you're more likely to support Trump than a conservative who stands for a specific set of principles. It's why quite a few prominent conservative supporters of Trump now were pretty hostile to him a year or two ago. Their initial hostility was based on Trump's many unconservative positions but now he's won the election and the left are gunning after him, they feel compelled to become his cheerleaders.

And no ****, of course democracy can sometimes throw up bad results. It's not as if I'm saying the result should be overturned or anything.
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Old 13-09-17, 19:58   #4322
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I don't think Trump "hoodwinked" anyone but voters, at least those who voted for him expecting him to actually do something about their plight. There were plenty who were perfectly happy to vote for a guy who was going to be mean to people they wanted someone to be mean too.

Politicians are all about power and control. I have no doubt many thought Trump could be controlled, contained or otherwise hedged in. They didn't count on his serial ineptitude and scandal, nor did they account for their own parties' inner conflicts.

This piece depresses the hell out of me because I think it's right: Trump will always be with us.

The bar has permanently been lowered, and unlike other presidents, he will not respect a new president's term. We'll be listening to his childish schtick ad nauseum.
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Old 13-09-17, 22:30   #4323
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I don't think Trump "hoodwinked" anyone but voters, at least those who voted for him expecting him to actually do something about their plight. There were plenty who were perfectly happy to vote for a guy who was going to be mean to people they wanted someone to be mean too.

Politicians are all about power and control. I have no doubt many thought Trump could be controlled, contained or otherwise hedged in. They didn't count on his serial ineptitude and scandal, nor did they account for their own parties' inner conflicts.

This piece depresses the hell out of me because I think it's right: Trump will always be with us.

The bar has permanently been lowered, and unlike other presidents, he will not respect a new president's term. We'll be listening to his childish schtick ad nauseum.
That was my point. Many of his voters essentially projected their own fantasies onto him to justify voting for him. Among those were conservatives who thought he was some sort of second coming of Reagan even though he's anything but.

As for the article, it's a bit meh. He makes some good points about Trump but often veers often into hysterics about other stuff. Also, I think he's neglecting the fact that once Trump is out of office, interest in him will die down a lot.
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Old 13-09-17, 22:38   #4324
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Yeah, Trump can blab all he want when he's out of office, nobody is really going to care.

That's really just another masturbatory liberal article whining about the Trump disaster. Those people still can't come to grips and admit just exactly how ****ed up and out of touch they were with their supposed demographic.
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Old 13-09-17, 23:32   #4325
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I think you pretty much hit it on the head.



Well, he didn't hoodwink the "in-the-know" conservatives. You yourself were screaming about his "hijacking" of the Republican Party before his election, and so were a bunch of people in the party itself.

But the people have spoken. They're not always right. Sometimes, democracy sucks.

Maybe we should have a King or Queen, as a reserve "head of state" who can step in and rule for four years whenever our democratic politics get screwed up so bad any election result will be an abomination...

Naw.

Speaking of Kings and Queens, I just saw a blurb that says William and Kate are expecting another child. Another royal mouth for you to feed.

Duchess Kate must be a fecund girl. She's just popping them out one after the other. I guess you won't have to worry about a lack of royal heirs.

Maybe you're joking but it has been brought up a lot in seriousness on this forum.

There is a conversation to be had about how our political system can be fixed such as campaign finance and the corruption of the drug war and the prison system and mass surveillance. But whenever the conversation is brought up about fixing aspects of American government, often times a European takes on this imperialistic stance to tell USA that we need less freedom and a queen nanny to take our rights in her hands. It completely diminishes the fact that America is the last stand of freedom in the world where the people have the power to run government. And it always comes back to socialism or a king and queen or communism. I am beginning to think they really do hate us for our freedom.
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Old 14-09-17, 00:21   #4326
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Maybe you're joking but it has been brought up a lot in seriousness on this forum.

There is a conversation to be had about how our political system can be fixed such as campaign finance and the corruption of the drug war and the prison system and mass surveillance. But whenever the conversation is brought up about fixing aspects of American government, often times a European takes on this imperialistic stance to tell USA that we need less freedom and a queen nanny to take our rights in her hands. It completely diminishes the fact that America is the last stand of freedom in the world where the people have the power to run government. And it always comes back to socialism or a king and queen or communism. I am beginning to think they really do hate us for our freedom.
Don't know if you're referring to me there at all but I certainly haven't been advocating that. In fact, one of my problems with Trump is that he's too statist.
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Old 14-09-17, 01:10   #4327
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Don't know if you're referring to me there at all but I certainly haven't been advocating that. In fact, one of my problems with Trump is that he's too statist.
If the shoe doesn't fit don't wear it. :P

I think when the states have their own authority it's a voice of the people speaking on a more localized level. The big federal authority dictating things for the whole country like was more Obama's style, equals less freedom for the people and more of a big hammer on what the people's will is in my opinion. the constitution should always be upheld first and foremost, but people should be able to elect representatives who have their interests in mind. An Oklahoman isn't going to have the same concerns as a New Yorker. They should be able to generally have a little leeway with how their state is run.
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Old 14-09-17, 02:23   #4328
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Originally Posted by Moon-Safari View Post
Maybe you're joking but it has been brought up a lot in seriousness on this forum.

There is a conversation to be had about how our political system can be fixed such as campaign finance and the corruption of the drug war and the prison system and mass surveillance. But whenever the conversation is brought up about fixing aspects of American government, often times a European takes on this imperialistic stance to tell USA that we need less freedom and a queen nanny to take our rights in her hands. It completely diminishes the fact that America is the last stand of freedom in the world where the people have the power to run government. And it always comes back to socialism or a king and queen or communism. I am beginning to think they really do hate us for our freedom.
I was just teasing Mad Tony about the Queen thing. And for the record, he has never advocated for the USA having a King or a Queen. Though he does seem to defend the English monarchy by artful omission. Well, that is his right, British tradition and all that.

We are never going to have a King or Queen - at least we BETTER not.

Insofar as the phenonema you have pointed out, let me just point out to you that the great dictator in American society is not whatever candidate that you may be in opposition to in whatever election, but rather... money.

Many prisons are run privately... for profit. And the ones that are not provide jobs for legions of guards and bureaucrats. Therefore, bloat - because bloat = influence and power, which equals... money. Not to mention cheap convict labor from people who might just be street idlers on the outside. Money in that too. Well, not for you, the taxpayer paying for the incarceration, but certainly for somebody else.

Drugs... Money again. On both sides of the legal equation. Obviously.

Mass surveillance... someone is making a lot of money building and selling all of those cameras and security servers.

There is money to be had in putting a GPS tracker in your car, and charging for the network of surveillance equipment to monitor it.

A fairly useless college degree costs a small fortune today because of administrative bloat - its a jobs program for a bunch of people who contribute little or nothing to the educational process. But hey, the Dean's cousin's brother in law needs a job, with a nice salary, so lets create a job for him, even if it has no real purpose. He needs the money.

Ditto health care. For every real doctor and nurse there are a half a dozen other people sucking salaries out of the health care industry who have nothing to do with actual health care. To say nothing of the HMO people who are raking in lots of - you guessed it - money - due to people's illnesses. Health care in the USA is actually getting to be more like a scam than a legitimate business model these days.

If the citizens of the USA don't learn to reign in their appetites when it comes to grubbing for money, I fear that eventually our society will come to a very bad end.
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Old 14-09-17, 04:58   #4329
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Originally Posted by Moon-Safari View Post
Maybe you're joking but it has been brought up a lot in seriousness on this forum.

There is a conversation to be had about how our political system can be fixed such as campaign finance and the corruption of the drug war and the prison system and mass surveillance. But whenever the conversation is brought up about fixing aspects of American government, often times a European takes on this imperialistic stance to tell USA that we need less freedom and a queen nanny to take our rights in her hands. It completely diminishes the fact that America is the last stand of freedom in the world where the people have the power to run government. And it always comes back to socialism or a king and queen or communism. I am beginning to think they really do hate us for our freedom.
If I had to write a parody of a stereotypical american who is offended by europeans going, "hey, that problem that is this massive issue for you? Literally every other developed nation has already solved it", then it would look a lot like this post.

But that's not really fun to talk about. I'd like to focus on one particular aspect: What do you mean when you say you have freedom and we don't? Not just in general but specifically, what choices do you get to make that aren't available to us, and why do you think they're important?
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Old 14-09-17, 08:23   #4330
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Ah the biggest lie Americans tell..."the land of the free, the home of the brave"

Has America more freedom overall than lets say North Korea? Absolutly...but thats about it.

Whenever i think about a Stereotype to imagine America, its always the big bully that is obnoxious, loud and throws his weight around to hide his insecurity.

Where exactly is america even "that" free?

Recently a Athlete faces all kinds of backlash...even professional just because he decided to use his Freedom and not stand up for something as silly as a anthem...in a truly free country nobody would bat an eye right?

What about the freedom for Transgender who are willing and ready to serve the military? Not in america as it seems.
Here in germany, nobody cares, if you can and want to serve...you do it.

Americas freedom is based on following a very specific set of "Rules", go outside those and you have no real freedom.
Something as simple as not praising the flag can get you all kinds of trouble...thats not freedom.

And the american government is run by rich people who shake hands with companies, not by the "people".


On a different note: I find this running gag with queens and kings hilarious around here.

And to come back to Trump as a side note:

Its been 13 days since he promised 1 million dollar to the victims of hurricane Harvey...still hasnt paid up.
Also its been more than a year since he promised a veteran group one million dollar...still hasnt paid.
To make it a triple, he promised 1 million to the Hurricane Sandy relief...guess how that turned out?
Meanwhile he continues to cost the tax payer double this amount each week.
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