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Old 08-12-16, 00:38   #561
Ward Dragon
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Well technically the referendum still has to be passed by Parliament. The problem with that is that a number of Remain MPs want to try and water down Brexit. A very small minority want to overturn it entirely.
Oh, I see. I'm still not sure how something like Brexit could be "watered down" though. Doesn't the EU have its own rules that have to be followed if the UK is going to leave?
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Old 08-12-16, 01:51   #562
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Oh, I see. I'm still not sure how something like Brexit could be "watered down" though. Doesn't the EU have its own rules that have to be followed if the UK is going to leave?
There are so many different options. This is a good article on it:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n...s-exit-EU.html

What quite a lot of MPs want is for us to remain in the single market (which also means freedom of movement) which pretty much defeats the object of leaving in the first place.

An important factor to consider here though is that a lot of Labour MPs (most of whom were for Remain) represent constituencies which voted very heavily to leave, so naturally that is having a bit of an effect.
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Old 11-01-17, 20:27   #563
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I worry for things like employment rights, consumer rights, and LGBT equality 2.0 (what the west does next to improve this)

Neither the conservatives nor labour have, of their own accord, ethusiastically and rapidly introduced laws that are pro- any of these above topics. Even temping agencies were allowed to treat workers unfairly until the EU improved the situation. I predict no UK government will gallop ahead in further improving things for these topics. Even if they do, it will be a drop in the ocean compared to what will be happening elsewhere.

It will at best stay where it is, but not progress much after brexit. If you look at the UK, practically no other EU country tolerates 0 hours contracts. This is the underlying baseline mentality that is only likely to spread and allow other aspects of workers rights to gradually decay/become out of date.

If anyone has ever watched BBC watchdog, a large majority of those (lol) whinging customer complaints are resolved with compensation because of EU consumer protection laws. I don't think a UK outside the EU is going to be quite so frequently and progressively protecting us.

I stick by these predictions on these topics. For other topics like economy and access to budget airlines and interrailing, I have no clue.
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Old 11-01-17, 20:36   #564
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I worry for things like employment rights, consumer rights, and LGBT equality 2.0 (what the west does next to improve this)

Neither the conservatives nor labour have, of their own accord, ethusiastically and rapidly introduced laws that are pro- any of these above topics. Even temping agencies were allowed to treat workers unfairly until the EU improved the situation. I predict no UK government will gallop ahead in further improving things for these topics. Even if they do, it will be a drop in the ocean compared to what will be happening elsewhere.

It will at best stay where it is, but not progress much after brexit. If you look at the UK, practically no other EU country tolerates 0 hours contracts. This is the underlying baseline mentality that is only likely to spread and allow other aspects of workers rights to gradually decay/become out of date.

If anyone has ever watched BBC watchdog, a large majority of those (lol) whinging customer complaints are resolved with compensation because of EU consumer protection laws. I don't think a UK outside the EU is going to be quite so frequently and progressively protecting us.

I stick by these predictions on these topics. For other topics like economy and access to budget airlines and interrailing, I have no clue.
I'm sorry but this is absolute nonsense, especially on LGBT rights. Please if you're going to make such statements at least be aware of basic facts. The UK was one of the FIRST European countries to introduce gay marriage. Gay marriage is still not legal in the majority of EU countries I believe.

I voted leave but I accept there were legitimate arguments for us staying in but this isn't one of them. The UK has always been one of the freest and most progressive countries in Europe.
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Old 11-01-17, 21:27   #565
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When was homosexuality decriminalized in the UK compared to other European countries? When was age of consent lowered to be on par with Europe?

What about clause 28? A simple single recent action - marriage - does not correct all the wrongs of the past. Turing was only given a posthumous pardon very recently. You have to look at the whole picture, the red line running through everything. Things have only very recently caught up with and in some isolated cases gone beyond where Europe and its legislation was collectively already at much earlier.

HIV/AIDS anti-discrimination in and out of work. And, and, and.

Without european influence, legislatively and culturally, we would be decades behind. Of that I am sure. If you have been the victim of gaybashing outside clubs etc in Europe I would be surprised.
The last gaybashings I know of in my social circle all stopped happening last of all in the UK (compared to Europe), until finally even there it started to die out a d the situation improved. Yes I have friends who at the time were gaybashed in the UK and the authorities did nothing at the time. Not to mention older friends of mine who witnessed clubs being raided by police who wouldnt even enter the building until they put on rubber gloves. That's going back a few decades though.

The UK has not had as pristine an LGBT record as you would believe. I sincerely hope some of the younger gay community members here from the UK don't forget that.
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Old 11-01-17, 21:45   #566
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When was homosexuality decriminalized in the UK compared to other European countries? When was age of consent lowered to be on par with Europe?

What about clause 28? A simple single recent action - marriage - does not correct all the wrongs of the past. Turing was only given a posthumous pardon very recently. You have to look at the whole picture, the red line running through everything. Things have only very recently caught up with and in some isolated cases gone beyond where Europe and its legislation was collectively already at much earlier.

HIV/AIDS anti-discrimination in and out of work. And, and, and.
I don't know when these things happened in other European countries - do you have sources?

In any case, I think it's ridiculous to essentially ignore the last 10-20 years and focus on things from way before that. Britain may have been behind many European countries on gay rights 50 years ago (although personally I doubt most European countries were anymore progressive) but that certainly isn't the case now.

Anyway, you're missing the point. The point is that civil partnerships and gay marriage were brought in by British governments on their own accord and not at the behest of the EU (where gay marriage isn't even legal in many member states), so why would the UK leaving the EU have any affect on LGBT rights?

Actually, the same goes for most things. As I said, the UK has long been more progressive than most European countries so us leaving won't have any affect at all really as far as that's concerned. If anything, it's the EU that could become less liberal as the UK won't be there anymore to argue for liberal policies.
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Old 11-01-17, 22:03   #567
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On balance, the UK has proactively done very little for LGBT rights compared to europe as a whole.

Your gay history lesson - watch the normal heart and appreciate where we are at now and consider the people that have gone before us. Casement's diaries is another one. Class dismissed.
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Old 11-01-17, 22:13   #568
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On balance, the UK has proactively done very little for LGBT rights compared to europe as a whole.

Your gay history lesson - watch the normal heart and appreciate where we are at now and consider the people that have gone before us. Casement's diaries is another one. Class dismissed.
And yet here we are: the UK legalized gay marriage in 2014 ahead of all but 9 European countries. The majority of Europe still hasn't legalized it, including Germany by the way.

This is one of the many reasons why people voted to leave - the smug, totally unjustified sense of European moral superiority.
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Old 11-01-17, 22:29   #569
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Hungary literally cancelled the right to marry for homosexual couples in 2012, as part of the EU. You need to stop using using the Benelux and Nordic countries as the only comparison point.
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Old 11-01-17, 22:30   #570
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Clearly to some the UK is (and has consistently been) the knight in shining armour for LGBT issues via a mere single act in a very recent period of LGBT history. I do hope for everyone's sake that things turn out even better for the lgbt community in the UK. I hope that PRIDE events in the UK never need to turn political again.

Theresa seems to prefer going to the far side of the planet to do business with countries with dubious human rights records rather than neighbors in her own back yard.

Meanwhile lets all rejoice in wonderment and glory at all the commonwealth countries of the UK where LGBT rights are numerous and plenty. Shame on the UK. Shame. Northern Ireland still doesn't recognize gay marriage, and the islands man, jersey etc. that have an albeit loose connection with the UK are still playing catch-up on lgbt issues.
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