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Old 20-03-16, 14:36   #11
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Originally Posted by Zebra View Post
Reading other people's opinions is not the same as being "connected" with them, being on the same wavelength as them or understanding them. That being said, I don't doubt that Crystal do really have good intentions for the most part and do have a desire to please the fans. That desire just obviously isn't strong enough to defeat the instinct of doing what seems the most commercially sensible.
aka what Square Enix desires from CD

Edit: Can we even talk about CD as a whole? So many people have been fired and hired that there are probably only a few dozen if any employes who worked both on TRL and TReboot
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Last edited by tomee; 20-03-16 at 14:57.
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Old 20-03-16, 15:04   #12
Eddie Haskell
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Originally Posted by larafan25 View Post
^It is odd, that the Lara Croft games are out chance at a Classic Tomb Raider experience, meanwhile they are not at all Tomb Raider games.

I'm actually saying the opposite as well.

We have given Crystal Dynamics and Square Enix the rap of pandering to the consumer. However, we are the customer. As much as Tomb Raider fans on this forum may not equate to the larger demographic of gamers, we are the ones sitting her saying Tomb Raider must be "modernized". But each has their own idea of what it should or should not be. In the end, it feels like it's the fan and the consumer saying "no more Tomb Raider, no more Tomb Raider!" Yet, they all want Tomb Raider. But they are far too "picky" and self-serving with their concept of what it should be.

These same fans are a part of the larger demographic, who go and buy the next big thing that comes out, whether it's Uncharted or Far Cry, and these games get praised by the fans.

It just starts to feel like we are the ones to blame.
Certainly we are an important part of the Tomb Raider consumer group. But as a finite number we represent just a fraction of the dollars that the investors wish to purloin from their product (unfortunately). Business always seeks to expand their market, and to maximize the monetary gain from their product.

I don't doubt that the developers wish to please the long time fans. But they are not willing to sacrifice the potential for an even larger share of the gaming market in order to continuously satisfy the existing fans with a product that pleases these old-time fans even more.

And there is something even more that is preventing a return to an old-school game. No one in business gets a raise to do nothing, that is, to keep things the way they are. There is always the desire to improve things, to show that you are smarter, more ingenious then the last guy. Putting your fingerprints on something and hoisting your concepts and vision upon the product is how things are done in a competitive business world. Everything can be improved and make the company more money, so they believe.

If "blame" is to be administered to someone or something, then it should be aimed at how business is done in our system. Tomb Raider and Lara Croft are a product to make money as I said, and to the company that is all that it is. There are no sacred cows, just intellectual property.

Originally Posted by larafan25 View Post
I agree that if you look at the classic games, you can see patterns of change, and that we can assume eventually the polygon numbers would shoot up. Perhaps those blocks would create a smaller grid. However, what drives the change, as you said, is another story. But there has to be an inferno or some sort of catch 22 imo. Because Crystal are selling what consumers are buying, are we just not the average consumer? Even if we aren't, that won't change the Tomb Raider fans who stand against Tomb Raider in the state that it was left circa 2000.
It has been a long time since Chronicles. What percentage of gamers that still call themselves "fans" of Tomb Raider are from the classic era? And what is the breakdown of those fans concerning the new direction; how many despise it, accept it, love it, etc? These disparities are not the fault of the gamer, they did not create these games. The company seeks only to maximize profits, to see if they can reach even more of the growing consumer gaming market. If they gain more then they lose, then it's a win. But you can take it to the bank that they do not wish to lose the existing gamer base, that's money in the bank already if they play their cards right.
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Last edited by Eddie Haskell; 20-03-16 at 15:20.
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Old 20-03-16, 15:19   #13
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I know most of us want classic Tomb Raider back - I'd be lying if I said I didn't; however, I don't think it's possible for CD or anyone to continue the classics properly except for the original team or those of us fans who have been with the series and have lived and breathed it for the past ~20 years. I'd rather CD make their own different interpretation of Tomb Raider and make it into a good yet different game than try to recreate the classics and fall short.

I'm still holding out for the programmers and artists within the community to either deliver a TR fan game or their own new game with the same formula. Until then I think CD is making great games and I love playing them.
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Old 20-03-16, 19:24   #14
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ahem. whilst I love the classics. even if I was a developer I wouldn't dare to make games in the classic formula, EVER. Tomb Raider is a big budgeted media franchise that needs big sales to continue. a game made in that formula won't sell anything. the classic fans aren't a priority anymore since they didn't buy either TRC or AOD. people bought legend, so they continued with that until it dried up. and people bought reboot (until it dries up) and then they'll find another formula. it's not charity, people. a lot of people are involved a lot of money is spent and they need to see it back. I understand that and i'm not going to ask them to create a game to cater to my personal tastes and only I and few thousands buy it.

the classics are done. and personally I think CD is doing an impressive job at catering the game to mass market needs and trying to listen to the loyal fans.
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Old 20-03-16, 19:43   #15
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Originally Posted by suli View Post
ahem. whilst I love the classics. even if I was a developer I wouldn't dare to make games in the classic formula, EVER. Tomb Raider is a big budgeted media franchise that needs big sales to continue. a game made in that formula won't sell anything. the classic fans aren't a priority anymore since they didn't buy either TRC or AOD. people bought legend, so they continued with that until it dried up. and people bought reboot (until it dries up) and then they'll find another formula. it's not charity, people. a lot of people are involved a lot of money is spent and they need to see it back. I understand that and i'm not going to ask them to create a game to cater to my personal tastes and only I and few thousands buy it.

the classics are done. and personally I think CD is doing an impressive job at catering the game to mass market needs and trying to listen to the loyal fans.
I get your point and in fact that's sadly true, but that doesn't mean they can't make better Tomb Raider games with some classic aspects, which in fact are the true essence of Tomb Raider.

Rise didn't do anything fresh, they didn't take chances with anything. Crystal needs to inovate their formula over each game, so a reboot wouldn't be necessary anymore after every trilogy they make.

I think it's time for the franchise to go back to its roots, without changing their new formula completely.
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Old 20-03-16, 19:53   #16
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I think the ones who would want a really Core Designish game, with tank controls and auto aiming and everything, would have better chances to ask for a small modest niche game in the Lara Croft series. Something that looks similar to Lara Croft Go.
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Old 20-03-16, 21:05   #17
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I'm not 100% sure what point is trying to be made in the op, but a couple of points caught my eye.
It has come to my attention that there is a lack of value for Tomb Raider (as in the interactive video game experience) by both the owner's and the fans.
What exactly do mean by lack of value? All fans of the series here value Tomb Raider, that's why we're here, or what brought us here originally. As for the owners, I assume you mean Square Enix or perhaps you're including Crystal Dynamics as well. I'd say CD do value Tomb Raider. Many of them are fans themselves, or at least the team members that have been in the public eye; the likes of Brian, Noah Hughes, Meagan, Robin, and Rhianna and before them Eric Lindstrum and Karl Stewart, Kier. Some are members of this and or the official forums. Of course, we can't talk about all those people hired who work diligently day by day on the games. There could be many who are simply doing their jobs. But that in and of itself creates a value in what they're making. They work hard on designing, coding or whatever else.

As for SE, well, they're in the more business end. We can only guess if individuals value the game Tomb Raider, but collectively, the business is to make money off it. They may well have value in the franchise for what it brings. To say the blanket term of "lack of value" is disrespectful. Unless I've misunderstood.

The owners trade to us the context of Tomb Raider, as in the brand name or concepts lightly associated with this name. This is a disregard for the specifics of the video game experience that is being sold. The owners wish for money, financial success and well being. There is a lack of interest or understanding with regards to the interactive experience of Tomb Raider.
Again, are you talking SE or CD? Again with blanketing the entire company with the same accusations, which I feel you are doing with a phrase like "Lack of interest and understanding..." regarding Tomb Raider. Now, sure, perhaps the big wigs at SE aren't overly concerned with what TR is in terms of gameplay or fan requests, but they are a business and businesses are in it for money. They research the gaming market, see what's popular, successful and, naturally, they want the video games on their books to do well commercially. This includes TR.

Again, Crystal Dynamics are in the business of developing the games. They probably do their own research, perhaps looking at the older TRs for inspiration as well as other games. Then they work hard on the games they make, trying to create a special game that they hope to please, SE, the fans and gamers in general.

Now, going by LF25's latest analysis of Tomb Raider and his conclusion that only Core's games are TR. This, to me, seems rather dismissive to Crystal Dynamics and their work, but whatever. There are many fans on this and other forums. We here are aware of the differences of opinion on what TR is. Perhaps just as many opinions as fans .

This is where I'm slightly confused over what the point of the OP is. Perhaps it's saying that with all these opinions and fans buying the games currently on offer, that the "owners" will continue making/selling what is currently available under the name of Tomb Raider and as such the real (classic) TR is being ignored. I dunno, I could have misunderstood, again. So what is the point? Are all fans supposed to ask for classic once more? And fans of LAU and Reboot...?

I don't think the relationship is hollow, however. Fans...all fans do voice their opinions and CD do read and take notes on suggestions. And, according to Meagan, Brian and Robin, they've all claimed to take our ideas and requests (a polite way of saying demands and wants) back to the studio. Meagan herself took the wishlist made after TR'13 to the team. The media also plays its part. They can't cater to everyone, but "more tombs" and "more puzzles" were popular and...well, more tombs and puzzles in Rise, along with more stealth opportunities. They listen, they do their best. What that best is might not please everyone of course.

Personally, I feel this thread is an extension of LF25's other threads, but hey ho.

Last edited by Rai; 20-03-16 at 21:19.
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Old 20-03-16, 21:27   #18
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The consumers relationship with CD/SE is about as disjointed as that OP was.

The title suggests an interesting topic to discuss, but the OP just goes on about explaining what a medium is, I...idk what to make of any of it.

Going off of the title, I think there is a severe disconnect with the consumers and the developers/business owners, I'm not sure how it is with other fandoms and gaming franchises, but we really don't get a lot of interaction with CD, if any at all, all we ever get is a thread welcoming a new member to the CD team, and then silence, the last time we had any kind of content that let us feel connected to the development of the game was the final hours of TR back when the reboot was being promoted, this time around we were just left in the dust.

I don't feel included, or even like... cared about so to speak? I don't feel like the hard core fans that have been here since the beginning are acknowledged or respected, I feel like CD is just going with popular trends and doesn't actually have a vision of what they want TR to be, but we're here on the forum like "well I don't really feel like this is TR" so there's this weird tension and contrast between the fans and CD that makes it hard for them to interact with us because most of what they would give us isn't what we want anyway. I think also the exclusive deal really dampened our relationship with CD, even though they aren't directly to blame, they didn't try to do any kind of damage control except make one blog post that told us to be happy with LCToO and play the reboot. So now it's like super awkward and I'm not sure what can be done about it.
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Old 20-03-16, 21:50   #19
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I think there's a disconnect of sorts but only because of the legacy of the original TR.

It's like a ghost that won't disappear.

If what they'd produced since they took over was definitely better (not just different) then probably it would have faded long, long ago apart from a few isolated old time fans' yearnings. But I don't think it has... I smelt whiffs of longing for it in such mainstream reviews as Eurogamer's and also The Guardian's take on ROTTR. And imo, this rememberance lingers because there is something in the earlier games that far and away supersedes what has been delivered since.

No matter how detailed and beautiful the graphics or how complex the upgrading system or how relentless the combat.

It's a real shame as far as I'm concerned because I like the Crystal people. The one's I notice anyway, they always seem nice and wanting to put something together really special and I hate that we can't always meet their enthusiasm.

They had to refresh and reinvigorate the game, and will have to again if it keeps going. But that doesn't mean that they had to do it this way.
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Old 21-03-16, 14:09   #20
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I think Crystal Dynamics has at least some people that love the franchise. I mean, they made Anniversary, and it is very close in parts to the original, so they paid close attention to at least that game. The game that defines it all. And I don't believe, if they didn't like the series, that they would remake the first game.

I also don't think they can ignore the fans. Franchises need some north to be able to not lose identity. Someone to target and please. And the fans are the ones Square should be able to please. Because products made for smaller groups of people (but not so small) are more well-defined and make people more passionate about them. TR is going, IMO the way of losing its identity. The same way Resident Evil did go. It's a 'short term vs long term' dilemma that I think was not managed well. Square seems to be focusing only in the short-term sales instead of also focusing on longevity.

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