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Old 21-03-16, 22:34   #21
Shark_Blade
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Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
I think Crystal Dynamics has at least some people that love the franchise. I mean, they made Anniversary, and it is very close in parts to the original, so they paid close attention to at least that game. The game that defines it all. And I don't believe, if they didn't like the series, that they would remake the first game.

I also don't think they can ignore the fans. Franchises need some north to be able to not lose identity. Someone to target and please. And the fans are the ones Square should be able to please. Because products made for smaller groups of people (but not so small) are more well-defined and make people more passionate about them. TR is going, IMO the way of losing its identity. The same way Resident Evil did go. It's a 'short term vs long term' dilemma that I think was not managed well. Square seems to be focusing only in the short-term sales instead of also focusing on longevity.
CD didn't do TRA because they "love" TR1 (if they did there wouldn't be so much things cut out and the story would've remained in tact faithfully). No, they did it to secure their own selfish future and kick/spite Core out of business for good. Vile scums, thank goodness many of them were fired after TRU release. Read this link article/thread:

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Very likely however I did read an interview with one of the creators who stated that they felt as thought crystal made their preview of TRA to spite Core and that he felt they stole their last opportunity away from them.
Made me really sad actually
Here's a link.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/0...f-core-design/





It looked far more exciting with different movesets for lara than what we got (Plus she still had the braid hrnng)
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Old 22-03-16, 11:15   #22
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CD never really understand tomb raider and they never want to.

Best give this franchise to the developer of Lara Croft Go to lead; they got a grip of what the essence and heart of what tomb raider truly is.
This...
Lara Croft GO was so classic, had proper puzzles which left you stuck - the amazing soundtrack.
They even said they are fans of the classic TR formula/games.

I feel its the focus on storytelling and cinematic movie like gameplay which is spoiling the games since the Reboot. It makes gameplay suffer in order to tell a story. I still think Cryatal focus on money making and 'whats cool' compared to their own vision and care.. hence why the series is in such a split up mess (LC spin offs, mobile games, reboot and rise)
Whereas Lara Croft Go had little to no story and just got on with it - designing levels and puzzles..

Reading that article makes me sad.. and hardly anyone cares - imagine if the same happened to Crystal Dynamics - there would be uproar.

"It felt like we'd made one mistake, and [being gutted like that was] horrible for a company that had made one mistake," says Rummery. "It was such a shock that we weren't going to get a chance to do anything about it. We'd churned out these six massive games that had made so much money for Eidos and kept Eidos afloat, and the moment that we had the slightest slip-up, we were shot through the head, effectively."
Core had gone from untouchable to damaged goods in the space of developing one big game under difficult circumstances.


I mean, look at what TRU turned out to be - if anything I thought it was more buggy than AOD
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Old 22-03-16, 12:41   #23
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There's no question in my mind that CD never quite understood Tomb Raider as a game. If they had, they wouldn't have ever introduced the checkpoint system or regenerating health.

But CD isn't trying to cozy up to fans, they're trying to sell video games and anyone's dollars are as good as anyone else's. I doubt they sit up at night worried because Lisa screamed at TReboot constantly over the stupidity of it all.

I'm interchangeable with any number of other people who might give them money for their product. I can't hold that against them, really. They've got kids going to college too.

If I were interested in the new game, I would probably be pretty upset about the timed exclusivity deal with MS. There's a clear preference for Microsoft's money over mine, and while all fans are created equal, that deal was a slap in the face to PS and PC fans. I'm your ****ing consumer, not Microsoft. Don't "let them eat cake" me. TBH, if I cared, I would probably be saying they would never have my custom again since they appear to value Microsoft's more than mine.

I am an unsatisfied consumer though. No one is making the kinds of games I want to play. It's frustrating to watch every game turn into that one game: a shoot 'em up or FP POV game because game development is too expensive to take any risks.

So if CD is paying any attention, not every gamer is some graphics junkie who needs a gazillion dollar game with a billion particle effects to enjoy playing. Why can't there be some mid-level tier game I can enjoy? Why does everything have to be some AAA budget-buster that can't deviate from the COD/Uncharted formula?
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Old 22-03-16, 12:49   #24
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Originally Posted by Dennis's Mom View Post
There's no question in my mind that CD never quite understood Tomb Raider as a game. If they had, they wouldn't have ever introduced the checkpoint system or regenerating health.

But CD isn't trying to cozy up to fans, they're trying to sell video games and anyone's dollars are as good as anyone else's. I doubt they sit up at night worried because Lisa screamed at TReboot constantly over the stupidity of it all.

I'm interchangeable with any number of other people who might give them money for their product. I can't hold that against them, really. They've got kids going to college too.

If I were interested in the new game, I would probably be pretty upset about the timed exclusivity deal with MS. There's a clear preference for Microsoft's money over mine, and while all fans are created equal, that deal was a slap in the face to PS and PC fans. I'm your ****ing consumer, not Microsoft. Don't "let them eat cake" me. TBH, if I cared, I would probably be saying they would never have my custom again since they appear to value Microsoft's more than mine.

I am an unsatisfied consumer though. No one is making the kinds of games I want to play. It's frustrating to watch every game turn into that one game: a shoot 'em up or FP POV game because game development is too expensive to take any risks.

So if CD is paying any attention, not every gamer is some graphics junkie who needs a gazillion dollar game with a billion particle effects to enjoy playing. Why can't there be some mid-level tier game I can enjoy? Why does everything have to be some AAA budget-buster that can't deviate from the COD/Uncharted formula?
Preach it sister!

You hit the nail on the head there - developers won't take risks and stick to the same old COD shoot em up formula.

I mean, when I first saw the trailer for what I didn't know was Tom Clancy's The Division - I was like .. Wow this looks interesting.

Then it showed the soldiers with guns and the typical COD **** and I was like "Oh.. meh"

Only Indie games seem to be doing well or even smaller, less popular titles like Ubisoft's Rayman Origins / Legend.
That game was so much fun to play and had some cool puzzles.
Because Indie developers normally make games with care and love - not money orientated greed.
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Old 22-03-16, 13:22   #25
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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. That there's a disconnect between the devs and fans? If that's the case I completely disagree. CD reads the forums and our input far more than other game companies do with their communities.
If that were true the exclusive deal would never have happened, and nor would have the 360 DLC.
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Old 22-03-16, 13:27   #26
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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. That there's a disconnect between the devs and fans? If that's the case I completely disagree. CD reads the forums and our input far more than other game companies do with their communities.
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If that were true the exclusive deal would never have happened, and nor would have the 360 DLC.
They don't really care a whole lot, actually. Sure they need to have PR and in some cases visibly take notice of any communities devoted to their product, but in the end this is to maintain goodwill so that you buy whatever they wish to deliver. No doubt some of what is gleaned from such interaction could possibly impact the product, but overall the bottom line dictates what is going to be done.
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Old 02-04-16, 17:15   #27
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The bottom line has to be the driving force behind every business, of course, but most companies don't go out their way to cut the fans off at the knees as did SE with the MS deal and as did Edios with sacking CORE. It almost seemed desperate to do so on both accounts, or totally clueless to no end. Perhap because SE is a Japanese company and the nuances of what is ok in Asia but not ok in the West flew over their heads?

Its a great wonder that there are any core fans left for this franchise given how much it gets battered about.... A statement as to the uniqueness and impact of the original brand. If this game had originally come out with Legend and no classics preceding it, it would have long ago been dead.
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Old 11-04-16, 21:21   #28
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Originally Posted by Shark_Blade View Post
CD didn't do TRA because they "love" TR1 (if they did there wouldn't be so much things cut out and the story would've remained in tact faithfully). No, they did it to secure their own selfish future and kick/spite Core out of business for good. Vile scums, thank goodness many of them were fired after TRU release. Read this link article/thread:
Well damn. I never read that article until now. I knew the general story, but that went into much more detail than I'd really known about. Just makes me feel even worse for them. I didn't realize CD had made their Anni demo in order to try and keep TR to themselves... I'd always thought it was Eidos that had made that decision. Makes me want to rage even more about it, as Core's Anni was much more classic (not to mention colorful).

I still like CD's games but... every time I'm reminded of the Core story it just makes me depressed and sorry for them. They worked so hard and were ultimately punished for one mistake. :/

---

Nowadays I don't think that there's really that ... personal connection between the developers/publisher and the fans of a certain franchise. Not just TR. There seems to always be an invisible wall there. Companies are too big, too much money is being spent and too much money gained. I always wanted games to take off and become a serious medium but... I kind of regret that now. Games no longer feel new or like they are trying something different and innovative. At least not on the AAA list. Indie games and studios are at least afforded that freedom. Much like Core did in its early days before TR became what it is.

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Originally Posted by Dennis's Mom View Post
(snip)
Also wanted to say, I agree 100%. While I had no huge expectations for Rise, after playing it I did enjoy it a deal bit better than I expected I would. It's still not a perfect game and tries too hard to be everything that's popular now...

If I was really torn up about the exclusivity deal, I'd probably not have bought it myself. But... honestly I see these deals as the norm in this industry. They shouldn't have done it with a franchise that's always been multiplatform, on that I definitely agree. I guess I'm just so jaded that it's hard for me to really feel irritated by this sort of treatment anymore. I've already been used to getting the short end of the stick since I mostly stick to PC games now than console. So I'm used to missing out on good games due to exclusivity lol.

If I'd never been able to play Rise, I don't think I'd have missed it much honestly... It was good but not... "Oh my God that was amazing!" good.

---

As for Lara Croft Go, that's yet another TR I'll never be able to play, since I don't and probably will not own a smart phone. Pity they don't have a port for PC at least. But if you all say they're good and stick to the classic formula I believe you. I'm glad at least some TR dev does. Although, the Lara Croft: GOL/Osiris games are pretty good too puzzle wise.

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Old 12-04-16, 11:51   #29
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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. That there's a disconnect between the devs and fans? If that's the case I completely disagree. CD reads the forums and our input far more than other game companies do with their communities.
Well said, the only thing disconnecting the fans from the Devs are the fans themselves.
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Old 06-01-17, 03:49   #30
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I can't help but come back to this thread as I think about this more and more with greater clarity, but no sense of resolve.

It is the right of the game, or artwork to be what it may be. Just as it is the right of the creator to make it as they see.

I'm assuming it is the right of the marketers to market the game as they see fit.

These are different artists with technical knowledge and understanding in different fields. They are the "experts".

However, should the work of business and marketing be able to compromise the art that is being sold?

I mean why sell what you don't see value in? If you view the industry and demographic as changing, why are you willing to compromise the art for the business of money? What does that money do? Does it not fund more of that art?

Are there truly not enough people interested in Tomb Raider? Are the experts of marketing not able enough to make Tomb Raider appealing?

If the money obtained through sales is used to keep the cycle moving, to keep the art created, then is it not all for the purpose of the creation and consumption? And so then, the objective is more-so to make what we find fulfilling, and to consume what we enjoy?

And so did the opinions and perspectives of the creators not simply change?

If Tomb Raider is the name we're giving to the game and all of it's tiny little characteristics, is it not the relationship with those characteristics that makes a "Tomb Raider" fan? In that sense? But if the name is given to other characteristics, and the fans are, of course, interested in those characteristics, are they not fans of those characteristics regardless of what name they are given? And so, the name stays the same but the characteristics change, and we understand and are willingly tolerant of these changes, because it is interesting and exciting. But if some flow of logic is broken, we don't like it, and the changes are less understandable.

I really think it is the "why" of the changes that fans do not appreciate, as opposed to change". Because the "why" is limitation, excuses, negative perspective, lack. Can't, Unable. Won't. Don't want. If fans are the appreciators of Tomb Raider, will they like the anti-appreciation?

I think that's how Crystal killed it for me. By labeling what I love as, by some definition, bad. Sure, it's only bad now, and wasn't then, but now it's bad. It's like, I could be here with some Tomb Raider fans discussing and enjoying the topic of Tomb Raider, that is not something the creators or owners can relate to because they don't have that relationship. They don't express that appreciation, at least not convincingly, with their actions and choices. That dissonance further impairs the relationship I assume.

Fans have a relationship with the medium of video games, pertaining to the subject matter that is Tomb Raider, or vice versa. They experience said subject matter through the systems or technicalities of the medium of video games.

The business experts (that's a stretch) have a relationship with Tomb Raider, the video game, as it is the subject matter of their art form, or medium of business and marketing. Their perspective is different, their goal is different. But, again should they not value what they are selling?

How do we explain the complainers and crybabies? The left-over people? Did they just come in recently? Did they just decide to change? The fans maintain their relationship with Tomb Raider and hold up their end of the bargain. But if enough, statistically, seem to leave or lose interest, is this cause for them to be abandoned?

Some people's tastes are too fine.
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