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Old 28-12-16, 16:13   #91
sikasika18
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Why bother complaining, they don't listen anyway.
I mean we have been asking for more challenging gameplay and what do we get? A game where she can't even fall off of cliffs no she just stops at the edge and you have to jump off lol.
The handholding in this game is the worst in any game i've played so far.
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Old 30-12-16, 17:00   #92
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Very interesting tidbit I specifically noticed while reading the 20 Years of Tomb Raider book, regarding the level design philosophy for the original TR game, and it immediately reminded me of this thread and the whole subject:

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Gavin Rummery: Most games defined where the player could go and what they could interact with, using cheats like invisible walls and false ledges. But in Tomb Raider, Lara called the shots; if she could grab a ledge then she could climb up there, and we designed the levels around her abilities.
Wow, would you look at that? Now, this was 20 years ago, and 20 years later, with all the "advances" in gaming technology, Lara is restricted to white ledges... Need I say more?

I think what CD should do, is print out this quote in very large letters and have it hanging over their offices as a constant reminder that 6 people new to developing 3D action adventure games designed better than them, and also as an inspiration to remind them that they can do better.
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Old 30-12-16, 17:12   #93
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Originally Posted by Mikky View Post
Very interesting tidbit I specifically noticed while reading the 20 Years of Tomb Raider book, regarding the level design philosophy for the original TR game, and it immediately reminded me of this thread and the whole subject:



Wow, would you look at that? Now, this was 20 years ago, and 20 years later, with all the "advances" in gaming technology, Lara is restricted to white ledges... Need I say more?

I think what CD should do, is print out this quote in very large letters and have it hanging over their offices as a constant reminder that 6 people new to developing 3D action adventure games designed better than them, and also as an inspiration to remind them that they can do better.

This post is golden.
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Old 30-12-16, 17:26   #94
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I have no knowledge in programming, so how difficult is it to program a character to grab onto complex objects? I mean I guess it would be easier to program Lara to grab onto almost every edge back in the day because everything was a square. But what about things that don't have very defined edges? Like a wacky rock?
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Old 30-12-16, 18:47   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikky View Post
Very interesting tidbit I specifically noticed while reading the 20 Years of Tomb Raider book, regarding the level design philosophy for the original TR game, and it immediately reminded me of this thread and the whole subject:



Wow, would you look at that? Now, this was 20 years ago, and 20 years later, with all the "advances" in gaming technology, Lara is restricted to white ledges... Need I say more?

I think what CD should do, is print out this quote in very large letters and have it hanging over their offices as a constant reminder that 6 people new to developing 3D action adventure games designed better than them, and also as an inspiration to remind them that they can do better.
I think it's really unfair CD gets the blame for this everytime. I've read an article about Square enix a while ago, and it was posted this week in a thread around here (can't find it at the moment). The article is about a cancelled Legacy of Kain game. I will just quote it again:

Quote:
Square Enix also wanted the new Legacy of Kain to be "idiotically easy", at least compared to the previous games in the series. As a result, Climax inserted plenty of hand-holding into the game world. The game's "main path" would be clear, and take most players around 10 hours to complete. But Climax wanted to add in secret areas that were not telegraphed, areas designed to offer a half an hour of diversion, a mini-dungeon that may go unseen. "We love the Zelda games and we love secrets," one developer says.

There was a tension here, developers report. Square Enix wanted triggers for every area in the game, triggers that would alert the player to a point of interest. Climax created a compass and a map for the game to help guide the player. If you clicked in the right thumb-stick, the game would show the player where they're meant to go.

Black Cloth was designed as an 18-rated game - that is, it was meant for adults. It was packed with violence, nudity, swear words and dealt with adult themes. Sony's gory God of War series was used as a reference point for what the developers could get away with. And so, for many people at Climax, creating a game for adults meant creating a game that assumed a certain skill level. Square Enix had other ideas.

"They wanted a game that was almost insultingly simple in parts," one developer says, "so it could be played by people who hadn't really played games before. Which, you know, if you're buying an 18-rated game, in theory, you've probably played games before. Your first game is never going to be Legacy of Kain. But there we go."

Climax also included a fair amount of puzzle platforming, which was in keeping with the series' past, particularly Soul Reaver. Some sections involved shifting valves and required the player combine their abilities with environmental navigation. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is mentioned here as inspiration for these 10 or 15 minute long puzzle platform sections. But like navigation, Square Enix wanted puzzle platforming to be easy-going, and not too much of a challenge.
The link for the full article is here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-years-of-work

It's about Square enix pulling a lot of the strings in the background, they influence and eventually decide A LOT , story-wise and gameplay-wise. it's ridiculous.

My point is: I think CD wants to listen to us. I really do believe they have an honest connection with the fans, and they want to make the best TR game possible: both for new comers and for fans. I even remember Meagan Marie telling me the white ledges were a bit to obvious. But if Square tells them to do anything, they'll just have to. Sometimes i just feel a bit sorry for CD.
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Old 30-12-16, 20:06   #96
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Originally Posted by malferink View Post
My point is: I think CD wants to listen to us. I really do believe they have an honest connection with the fans, and they want to make the best TR game possible: both for new comers and for fans. I even remember Meagan Marie telling me the white ledges were a bit to obvious. But if Square tells them to do anything, they'll just have to. Sometimes i just feel a bit sorry for CD.
Then Crystal should take Richard Croft's advice. https://youtu.be/KBBrYyV7m2A?t=725
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Old 30-12-16, 20:13   #97
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Originally Posted by malferink View Post
My point is: I think CD wants to listen to us. I really do believe they have an honest connection with the fans, and they want to make the best TR game possible: both for new comers and for fans. I even remember Meagan Marie telling me the white ledges were a bit to obvious. But if Square tells them to do anything, they'll just have to. Sometimes i just feel a bit sorry for CD.
Yeah that is true. I have to keep that article in mind more often than I do (I've read it and seen it referenced many times). Which does make me sad for any developer working on AAA games. I mean yeah they're getting the money but at the same time, what kind of way is that to create if you've constantly got some big wig over your shoulder dictating exactly what to do? Then it doesn't give you room for it at all in some ways. Which is why I suspect they've played it so safe with the new games (and that doesn't just apply to TR).

But I don't know how hands-on Eidos was back when Legend was made. That too was made rather easy by comparison to the old games. I want to believe Crystal wants to listen to us but sometimes it's hard to tell. Their badmouthing Core certainly didn't help at least. So it's a little hard for me to feel completely sorry for them.
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Old 30-12-16, 21:06   #98
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Originally Posted by malferink View Post
I think it's really unfair CD gets the blame for this everytime. I've read an article about Square enix a while ago, and it was posted this week in a thread around here (can't find it at the moment). The article is about a cancelled Legacy of Kain game. I will just quote it again:



The link for the full article is here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-years-of-work

It's about Square enix pulling a lot of the strings in the background, they influence and eventually decide A LOT , story-wise and gameplay-wise. it's ridiculous.

My point is: I think CD wants to listen to us. I really do believe they have an honest connection with the fans, and they want to make the best TR game possible: both for new comers and for fans. I even remember Meagan Marie telling me the white ledges were a bit to obvious. But if Square tells them to do anything, they'll just have to. Sometimes i just feel a bit sorry for CD.
That is something that has to be kept in mind, you just have to read some of the stuff about Hideo Kojima and Konami.

Developing a video game, isnt this easy and fun as people make out.
You have to follow instructions of those who give you money, who promote your game, you have to make exclusive deals etc.

But more importantly, there is no reason to defend CD or blame SE for some weird reasons.
The Reboot games are critically acclaimed from a wide variety in the gaming community, the games won awards and sold well.
White Ledges are just that...white Marked Ledges.
They are not the end of everything, they are probably the end result of someone in charge who after 1-2 hours of playing, said that the climable walls have to be marked better.
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Old 30-12-16, 21:18   #99
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Originally Posted by Gh0stBlade View Post
Then Crystal should take Richard Croft's advice. https://youtu.be/KBBrYyV7m2A?t=725
Uhm, how could that work? SE owns Tomb Raider, without square they can't even make a TR game.

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Originally Posted by Horus-Goddess View Post
Yeah that is true. I have to keep that article in mind more often than I do (I've read it and seen it referenced many times). Which does make me sad for any developer working on AAA games. I mean yeah they're getting the money but at the same time, what kind of way is that to create if you've constantly got some big wig over your shoulder dictating exactly what to do? Then it doesn't give you room for it at all in some ways. Which is why I suspect they've played it so safe with the new games (and that doesn't just apply to TR).

But I don't know how hands-on Eidos was back when Legend was made. That too was made rather easy by comparison to the old games. I want to believe Crystal wants to listen to us but sometimes it's hard to tell. Their badmouthing Core certainly didn't help at least. So it's a little hard for me to feel completely sorry for them.
Well, regarding Legend, after the AOD fiasco I guess they kind of had to change things drastically to bring back the larger audience. So they came up with Legend, with everything TR was known for to the public: a lot of movie references, a james bond-kinda Lara, beautiful locations and a bad-ass Lara Croft, spewing witty one-liners. I know it isn't truly a TR game, but they came up with their own vision of Tomb Raider, which I think is fair: they were given this IP for a reason, to bring their own vision to the table, while keeping old things but also offering fresh things. not to copy old Core Design.
Don't get me wrong, I love Core and the work they did, but you have to remember what kind of critical failure AOD was (I don't agree, it's my favorite game of all time ) but just remember 2003 and the news surrounding AOD.
I think they even mentioned this in the 20 anniversary book, when they're describing the step from AOD to Legend.

they eventually listened to the feedback on Legend and ellaborated on this in Anniversary, and even more so in Underworld.
Because really, if Underworld isn't a sign that CD listened to us fans, then I don't know what is. It has open levels, puzzles spanning multiple areas, a motorcycle you're free to drive as you like, the return of Natla and dopplehoe, and I could go on and on. If they succeeded is a whole different story - I hated underworld for one . But you can't deny that they tried to listed to the fans.

Regarding the bad-mouthing of Core, I honestly can't remember all that much of them. I'm sure it has been brought up sometimes, but really, do you think one or two members represent a whole company? I honestly believe a lot, if not most members, respect the work Core did. But of course they want to make their own vision of their game, especially if you've been working on the series for a long time.

Last edited by malferink; 30-12-16 at 21:21.
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Old 02-01-17, 16:34   #100
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Originally Posted by Daring Do View Post
I have no knowledge in programming, so how difficult is it to program a character to grab onto complex objects? I mean I guess it would be easier to program Lara to grab onto almost every edge back in the day because everything was a square. But what about things that don't have very defined edges? Like a wacky rock?
Piece of cake.there are some very few ledges and edge that have no marks on them and Lara grabs them. Especially in the woods.

It is just clumsiness of them and maybe one of the managers who works at CD i a spy and TR hater.
He works this way: "I will spoil the glory of this game with these"
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