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Old 06-01-17, 14:28   #11
Cochrane
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The simple answer is that some people don't like the Crystal games. Everything else is a result of internet debate "culture" being what it is and is best ignored. Neither company made games that are objectively more fun; that is entirely subjective. Any other metric for "better" is useless.

For my part, I like Crystal's games, but I love the ones by Core.
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Old 06-01-17, 14:28   #12
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I am part of the crew firmly against Crystal so I'd like to try and explain the reasons behind my way of thinking.

To answer the question in the thread's title, talking about "hate" would a bit of an exaggeration. Hate is a strong word, not really suited in this context where we are discussing about business companies and whatnot. It's not like any of the Crystal employees killed one of my family members so I can't say I flat out hate them. As a software house, I simply believe they committed a lot of missteps towards part of the Tomb Raider fandom and the previous developers, and this led me to feel less and less sympathy for them over the years.

Let's be honest here: there are different ways to make your mark on something and kind of impose your own vision to create that distinctive touch to differentiate between you and another developer, and to me they did this in the most appalling way: discrediting Core's work, alienating a relevant part of the fanbase who stuck with the franchise since the beginning, throwing shades at classic Lara to devalue one of the most iconic characters ever, not just of the 90s. I don't really blame Crystal for trying to create something a bit different, I blame them for the way they've approached this saga and its fans honestly. Don't even get me started on Anniversary Edition, that is the worst scenario ever happened after Crystal took over.

The reboot is not what I had imagined for the future of Tomb Raider, but aside from this, it's the utter arrogance that made me lose the last drop of my respect for them.
I've fallen in love with Lara and her adventures ever since I was a child and I'm sorry, but I when I hear something like "forget everything you knew about Tomb Raider", I can't bring myself to condone a similar attitude, almost as though they truly believe we should all simply erase from our memories what we came to love through the years to make room for their supremacist bullcrap. That's where they went horribly wrong.

I could list up to ten other examples regarding classic Lara, Core's work and the old games but it would be useless, it's the same old story over again and just like I won't change my opinion on Crystal, those who appreciate them won't do it either even If I show evidence of their lack of professionality.

Everyone is entitled to their preference, I just wish people would try and understand a bit more some of the motivations of the anti-Crystal folks instead of jumping straight to -wrong- conclusions. Not everyone is so shallow to dislike Crystal simply because they are not CORE or for the sake of stirring up drama out of thin air, I for one would welcome another developer to give them a chance to make things right according to my personal taste when it comes to Tomb Raider, to see if the way they envision a modern tomb raiding experience matches mine, I've simply came to terms with the fact that Crystal is not up to this task to me. They're doomed beyond repair to my eyes.
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Old 06-01-17, 14:48   #13
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I don't hate on Crystal Dynamic games at all, I actually enjoy them It is how they changed Lara that pissed me off. In LAU, they gave her a new biography which was far less interesting than her original one. Since Legend, they made her reminisce about her parents every breather she gets. She no longer has witty and sassy personality anymore and she lost her confident and fearless attitude too, which were my favourite features of Lara Croft. She was good at hiding her fears.

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But I am quite sure that after the AOD trilogy, they would have gone back to more of the same, and people would get bored fast.

So Crystal changed it. They didn't make the same game, they took the character, rebooted it and gave it a new style.
AOD was not the same as TR 1-5. It was not boring, in fact it was the opposite. It was not heading back to where it was either, it was going forward. AOD trilogy could have added elements that were in LAU, just minus the parental drama. AOD's story is far more interesting than Legend and Underworld for sure. At least I can say I like Legend Lara but since Underworld, it felt like a different character.

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Lara already had depth and layers...

Crystal just made her more emotional and talkative, while also changing the core of her character. She basically a diffeent person altogether.
Classic Lara always had emotions, it is just that people were too focused on other characteristics of her to realise it. Lara dealt with many different kind of people and she always did her best to hide her fears and emotions to show that she was not scared or worried. It does not mean she was not though. Lara became more talkative on each release... The only reason she seem more talkative in Legend was because of that headset. If Core Lara was in 2006, she would have spoken more too no doubt.
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Old 06-01-17, 14:49   #14
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Lara already had depth and layers...

Crystal just made her more emotional and talkative, while also changing the core of her character. She basically a diffeent person altogether.
Exactly; people who say otherwise just lead me to believe they're blindly stating this and haven't done their homework. Classic Lara showed she had layers. Yes, in the first three games she was pretty monotone - constantly sarcastic and quippy. Not that it was bad, though I would have liked to see her show more compassion to the monk in TR2 and the guy with his leg half eaten in TR3, but I think that was half down due to voice acting. I know many people here love Judith Gibbons but to me her Lara was too one sided. In TR4 the story and scripting got much more open and I think Jonelle Elliott across the course of Last Revelation, Chronicles and AoD did a good job of opening up Lara to a range of emotions and sides... all the while protecting her core character which CD have never hit properly to me. I guess it's just that by this time many people had stopped paying attention. The Drama of lack of progression and AoD sort of eclipsed both Chronicles and AoD as games.

I find it ironic really considering CD's first attempt had the 'godfather of TR' to help them destroy her. I don't even know if I blame CD for LA Lara. It was clear that they were going for a different character before he came in and changed things. Underworld Lara, which Gard had less input for, was much closer to classic Lara than any other Lara they've done - I liked her.
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Old 06-01-17, 14:58   #15
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AOD's story is far more interesting than Legend and Underworld for sure.
Perhaps, but it wasn't a Tomb Raider story. And TR5, though I like that game, wasn't very much either. It seems clear to me that Core was tired of making actual Tomb Raider games. So I'm glad that Crystal D took over and we got three more games before they too decided that it was better to not make Tomb Raider games than actually making them.
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Old 06-01-17, 15:03   #16
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Perhaps, but it wasn't a Tomb Raider story. And TR5, though I like that game, wasn't very much either. It seems clear to me that Core was tired of making actual Tomb Raider games. So I'm glad that Crystal D took over and we got three more games before they too decided that it was better to not make Tomb Raider games than actually making them.
While I agree Core were clearly tired of making TR games; trying to kill her off and initial visions of AoD show this. As I see it, LAU were not TR games in my opinion - they were more like 'TR for dummies' a watered down hand holdey version of what came before.


Also, I don't see how AOD or Chronicles were not a TR story. Chronicles was 4 mini stories about Lara finding artifacts which every game before had been about and AoD essentially had the plot from the first game re-written when you stand back and look at it objectively. An underground and long standing antagonist (Natla/Eckhart) is using ancient artifacts burried roung the globe (Obscura paintings/Scion) to re-birth a race of beings (Nephilim/Streaky bacon men et al.). They're not to different at all. The events that go on round them are different but I don't see what makes AoD 'not TR'. LAU might have been interestinng, with Legend having the best delivered story in the entire series, but that, to me, was far less TR than AoD cause they made it all about finding mummy and how Lara had always been searching for her than about the Arthurian Legend and Avalon which should have been the main point.
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Old 06-01-17, 15:13   #17
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LAU were not TR games in my opinion - they were more like 'TR for dummies' a watered down hand holdey version of what came before.


Also, I don't see how AOD wasn't a TR story. It was essentially the plot from the first game re-written when you stand back and look at it objectively. An underground and long standing antagonist (Natla/Eckhart) is using ancient artifacts burried roung the globe (Obscura paintings/Scion) to re-birth a race of beings (Nephilim/Streaky bacon men et al.). They're not to different at all. The events that go on round them are different but I don't see what makes AoD 'not TR'. LAU might have been interestinng, with Legend having the best delivered story in the entire series, but that, to me, was far less TR than AoD cause they made it all about finding mummy and how Lara had always been searching for her than about the Arthurian Legend and Avalon which should have been the main point.
Tomb Raider to me means searching for treasures and ancient artefacts in old megalithic ruins of lost civilisations. Legend does that, AoD doesn't. It spends it's time faffing around in dark back alleys. You can do that a little bit yes, but not for 75% of the friggin game. The genre of AoD was much more thriller and horror than it was adventure, and it did it well, but had no business calling itself a Tomb Raider game.
Legend Lara, believe it or not, was mostly consistent with the Lara from 1 to 5, a confident, calm, mostly polite adventurer. AoD Lara Croft is a cantankerous walking bag of hostility that I think would be better suited as an Uncharted villain rather than the hero.
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Old 06-01-17, 15:20   #18
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Originally Posted by SarahPilko View Post
I don't hate on Crystal Dynamic games at all, I actually enjoy them It is how they changed Lara that pissed me off. In LAU, they gave her a new biography which was far less interesting than her original one. Since Legend, they made her reminisce about her parents every breather she gets. She no longer has witty and sassy personality anymore and she lost her confident and fearless attitude too, which were my favourite features of Lara Croft. She was good at hiding her fears.

AOD was not the same as TR 1-5. It was not boring, in fact it was the opposite. It was not heading back to where it was either, it was going forward. AOD trilogy could have added elements that were in LAU, just minus the parental drama. AOD's story is far more interesting than Legend and Underworld for sure. At least I can say I like Legend Lara but since Underworld, it felt like a different character.

Classic Lara always had emotions, it is just that people were too focused on other characteristics of her to realise it. Lara dealt with many different kind of people and she always did her best to hide her fears and emotions to show that she was not scared or worried. It does not mean she was not though. Lara became more talkative on each release... The only reason she seem more talkative in Legend was because of that headset. If Core Lara was in 2006, she would have spoken more too no doubt.
Why do people like to say Legend Lara is no longer sassy and witty?

That's one of the things I don't understand about those who don't like LAU or Reboot. IMHO, Legend Lara and classic Lara are roughly the same person in terms of personality. They're both cocky, sassy, sarcastic, but they also know when and how to be serious. The only difference is that Legend Lara tends to be sassy and badass more often than classic Lara, I think that's what Crystal was trying to get across. In almost every single cutscene she was showing some kind of badassery. Like when she kills those men in Japan like it was nothing, holster her pistols and says "Basic etiquette. Never arrive at a party empty handed.", or in the end of the England level when Alister and Zip are waiting for her outside, she kills the mercenary, throws him in the middle of them and simply says "Hello, lads!". The cocky way Lara talks to Rutland in Ghana also reminds me of the way she talked to Larson and Pierre in the first FMV of the Rome section in TRC. There were many more instances in Legend where Lara was showing her badassery and making some awesome one-liners.

It's very likely people will disagree with me, but whenever I think of sassy, witty and badass Lara Croft, Legend is the first thing that comes to mind.
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Old 06-01-17, 15:25   #19
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Originally Posted by Nigel Cassidy View Post
Tomb Raider to me means searching for treasures and ancient artefacts in old megalithic ruins of lost civilisations. Legend does that, AoD doesn't. It spends it's time faffing around in dark back alleys. You can do that a little bit yes, but not for 75% of the friggin game. The genre of AoD was much more thriller and horror than it was adventure, and it did it well, but had no business calling itself a Tomb Raider game.
Legend Lara, believe it or not, was mostly consistent with the Lara from 1 to 5, a confident, calm, mostly polite adventurer AoD Lara Croft is a cantankerous walking bag of hostility that I think would be better suited as an Uncharted villain rather than the hero.
TR2 and TR3 mustn't be TR to you either then considering you spend most of your time in those games running around relatively modern loctations with only a miniscule amount of time spent in ancient ones. More so I would say than AoD. Also, I don't believe it about Legend Lara, because it's not a fact it's your opinion; to me she felt like a complete parody of the character she was supposed to be. I've always had that opinion.

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Why do people like to say Legend Lara is no longer sassy and witty?

That's one of the things I don't understand about those who don't like LAU or Reboot. IMHO, Legend Lara and classic Lara are roughly the same person in terms of personality. They're both cocky, sassy, sarcastic, but they also know when and how to be serious. The only difference is that Legend Lara tends to be sassy and badass more often than classic Lara, I think that's what Crystal was trying to get across.
It's all in the exocution. The phrase 'over the top' is not wasted here for me. Legend Lara felt so over the top and cheesey; like an exagerrated version of the character she was supposed to be and it just always felt to me like CD never really understood the character they were trying to convey. Add that together with the change in back story and the whole barbie doll aspect from back then I just could never take her seriously. Underworld Lara was much more to my taste by contrast. I really liked her.
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Old 06-01-17, 15:32   #20
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TR2 and TR3 mustn't be TR to you either then considering you spend most of your time in those games running around relatively modern loctations with only a miniscule amount of time spent in ancient ones.
Yes the tombs and ruins aren't exactly abundant in those games, but the outdoor areas like the jungle or the Nevada desert belong more in an adventure game than stinky back alleys.

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Also, I don't believe it about Legend Lara, because it's not a fact it's your opinion;
As is yours.
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