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Old 28-08-18, 22:37   #1
sampiza
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Default "Innovative gameplay".

So, in the past time since i joined the trle community i saw many players say from random levels that the gameplay is not innovative and things like that but if you stop to think there are not many things we can do in the engine even with the trng special triggers, so why people usually says that?
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Old 29-08-18, 06:50   #2
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Actually, with TRNG you can do much more than what TRLE alone could do. Imagine Lara grabbing onto something and pushing with her feet to break it for example. Or lifting some heavy things and having to bring them somewhere, but something that limits her movements. Something with a kind of other dimension, where you can get to a different version of the room you're in, move a few things around, so it unlocks something in the main version.
But most builders don't exploit these capabilities, and the gameplay is nothing more than "switch, door, switch, door, trap trap trap, switch, door, key key door...". It's what Core did most of the time, but it get repetitive. Basically builders tent to think "what can I do with TRLE" and work with that. Instead they should think more about something like "what could I make Lara do" without thinking of what TRLE can do. And then think about a way to make it into the game, using what TRLE allows and the tools TRNG gives (I mean, all the conditions and actions you can have), because TRNG really helps a lot in filling the holes TRLE has.

Also some builders rely too much on pixel perfect jumps or really tight timeruns, to try to make something interesting, but it's nothing new, and way more frustrating than fun, but this is another issue I guess. :,p
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Old 29-08-18, 16:18   #3
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^
I agree with all of that.

So, I'm also trying to think of "what could Lara do?".
And it does help in coming up with some new stuff.
Although I'm sure I could do a lot more...
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Old 29-08-18, 16:28   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey79100 View Post
Actually, with TRNG you can do much more than what TRLE alone could do. Imagine Lara grabbing onto something and pushing with her feet to break it for example. Or lifting some heavy things and having to bring them somewhere, but something that limits her movements. Something with a kind of other dimension, where you can get to a different version of the room you're in, move a few things around, so it unlocks something in the main version.
But most builders don't exploit these capabilities, and the gameplay is nothing more than "switch, door, switch, door, trap trap trap, switch, door, key key door...". It's what Core did most of the time, but it get repetitive. Basically builders tent to think "what can I do with TRLE" and work with that. Instead they should think more about something like "what could I make Lara do" without thinking of what TRLE can do. And then think about a way to make it into the game, using what TRLE allows and the tools TRNG gives (I mean, all the conditions and actions you can have), because TRNG really helps a lot in filling the holes TRLE has.

Also some builders rely too much on pixel perfect jumps or really tight timeruns, to try to make something interesting, but it's nothing new, and way more frustrating than fun, but this is another issue I guess. :,p
What I get from that is think about Lara doing anything? Almost like if it was real life? Not too much realism though.

Like if you wanted Lara to traverse across unstable pillars? TRLE can't do that itself but you adapt it to the engine?

Hope I am understanding it correctly.
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Old 29-08-18, 17:50   #5
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Yes, basically.
Adapting is the key here. Even though TRNG is capable of a lot of things, it is ofcourse still very limited compared to games these days, even compared to AOD.
So if unstable pillars come to mind, it is most likely not possible to let them sway AND make Lara move along with the swaying, like the wooden pillars in one of the AOD levels. So you'd have to think of something unstable that is possible with TRNG.


An example of something I wanted in one of my MoA levels.
I wanted Lara to operate a crane to move a crate over a cliff so she could then jump onto the crate in order to reach a ledge.
One switch inside the crane would be for rotating the arm of the crane, the second switch would be for raising and lowering a chain with the crate.
The crate wouldn't be attached to the chain to begin with: Lara had to push/pull it underneath the chain first.

Once I started working on the setup, I figured those two switches would be to complex. At least it was for me back then.
So the whole setup ended up with just one switch.
Find gasoline and fix the broken switch inside the crane, and only when both things are done will the crane become operational.
The arm can rotate and the chain will raise and lower. but there won't be a solid tile for Lara to stand on untill you have also pushed/pulled the crate underneath the starting position of the arm+chain.
The switch can be used as many times as the player likes, but the puzzle won't be completed untill the gasoline is used, the switch is fixed and the crate is pushed under the chain. Then finally the switch can be used again to hoist up the crate, rotate the arm and lower the crate so Lara can use it as a ledge.

This example uses quite a lot of scripting, including conditions and variables and such.
But the more you learn about TRNG scripting, the more you will be able to make ideas for "what could Lara do?" work.
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Old 29-08-18, 18:24   #6
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I think a nice example of a new addition to gameplay that isn't very complex but is nonetheless pretty neat, comes from the "Create a Classic" level The Hike by Mordyga. http://trle.net/sc/levelfeatures.php?lid=2941

*spoiler ahead*
About halfway through the level you encounter a pathwalk of very degraded wooden planks. If you just walk across it, you'll be okay, but the moment you start running, it will break under Lara's weight and she'll fall down to be impaled by spikes

It's a nice example, because it didn't take laborous scripting, at most a condition that Lara is running, which in turn triggers the shattering of the wood and (I presume) a flipmap that causes doors to appear to the room below. Simple, yet clever and fun.
The level contains more examples of things you can do with TRNG scripting, such as throwing an object to trigger some kind of action which allows you to progress in the level.

Last edited by Krystian; 29-08-18 at 18:29.
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Old 29-08-18, 19:28   #7
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I recently started to build level using only beta textures because wanted to texture rooms in meta. This workflow saved much time for me because I don't care of placing textures now, concentrating on gameplay instead. Must say that the boxy and plain rooms force me to invent something new to gameplay.

The second option is my favorite: making player able to make choise in game. Like that: two open doors, A and B. If Lara enters to door A, then door B closes and only route A is available. And vice versa. Or another example of choise: to fight the guard or sneak past him.
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Old 29-08-18, 19:46   #8
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Originally Posted by A_De View Post
I recently started to build level using only beta textures because wanted to texture rooms in meta. This workflow saved much time for me because I don't care of placing textures now, concentrating on gameplay instead. Must say that the boxy and plain rooms force me to invent something new to gameplay.

The second option is my favorite: making player able to make choise in game. Like that: two open doors, A and B. If Lara enters to door A, then door B closes and only route A is available. And vice versa. Or another example of choise: to fight the guard or sneak past him.
I'm already doing that in my levelset! You can visit all rooms, but there are different paths. Writing or doing walkthrough videos will be a pain though XD
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Old 30-08-18, 00:11   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey79100 View Post
Actually, with TRNG you can do much more than what TRLE alone could do. Imagine Lara grabbing onto something and pushing with her feet to break it for example. Or lifting some heavy things and having to bring them somewhere, but something that limits her movements. Something with a kind of other dimension, where you can get to a different version of the room you're in, move a few things around, so it unlocks something in the main version.
But most builders don't exploit these capabilities, and the gameplay is nothing more than "switch, door, switch, door, trap trap trap, switch, door, key key door...". It's what Core did most of the time, but it get repetitive. Basically builders tent to think "what can I do with TRLE" and work with that. Instead they should think more about something like "what could I make Lara do" without thinking of what TRLE can do. And then think about a way to make it into the game, using what TRLE allows and the tools TRNG gives (I mean, all the conditions and actions you can have), because TRNG really helps a lot in filling the holes TRLE has.

Also some builders rely too much on pixel perfect jumps or really tight timeruns, to try to make something interesting, but it's nothing new, and way more frustrating than fun, but this is another issue I guess. :,p
Yeah that makes sense but i still think that is hard to create nice gameplays and puzzles.
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Old 31-08-18, 13:56   #10
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Yeah that makes sense but i still think that is hard to create nice gameplays and puzzles.
I think we tend to forget that level design is actually a profession and a job that needs a lot of knowledge and practice even huge amount of patience... But trle is an old editor so it takes even more time to sketch your ideas etc... the thing i do for imagining new things and "creative gameplay" is simply writing / drawing things on paper without worrying if it's doable for trle lara or not, for exemple i want lara to push semi broken statues to break an ice wall, well it's doable with scripting custom animations and flipmaps + audios in the case it's not doable i try to find alternatives etc... it's a whole creative process just take time
Nobody forces you to do something super original and new... it's your level that you create to please you with what you like in TR classic games. To be honest reviews aren't important for me you can produce classic levels with classic assets and make it sensational, look core their level weren't super "complex" just good gameplay ideas !
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