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Old 15-09-18, 15:59   #1
_Seth
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Question The Classic TR Games Don't Actually Have Any Puzzles

I've wanted to address this for a long time now, which is that ever since Legend came out with it's and CD's light attempt at puzzles, there's been the creation of this strange myth that the classic TR games had puzzles galore, and the request to incorporate what would actually be a fairly new feature.

The idea that the Core Design games were filled with puzzles is... completely unfounded. Save for Last Revelation, puzzles were actually quite infrequent in the classics. In TR1, 2, 3 and 5 which I'll go through a couple of times a year, I can only think of the Lost City of Tinnos food chain puzzle, the Palace Midas Omega/Upsilon lever puzzle, and maybe the London flood tanks. Other than that, I can't really think of any more.

The thing is, finding an item and putting it in a slot to open a door is not a puzzle, that is a fetch quest - an exploration task. Neither is finding and pulling a lever a puzzle, lol. You could argue that the complex level designs were puzzles in themselves, which I would agree, but there were no nested ones.

So where did this myth come from? Why do people want this almost brand new feature of puzzles? I personally find them pretty boring when they're not physics-based. Partly why I think Last Revelation, Drake's Deception and A Thief's end are crap. Never been a fan of dull ass icon-memorising-and-matching puzzles or tedious cop out one-lever-turns-multiple-gears-and-one-turns-only-one-of-the-bunch.
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Old 15-09-18, 16:17   #2
Tombraider95
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I think people mostly mean the levels themselves are the puzzles. You are dropped in with pretty much no guidance of where to go or what to do. It's just explore and work it out yourself. There's no mission objectives or survival instincts to help you.

But yeah as you say TR4 had both, the levels as puzzles and also environmental puzzles fitted in to the story. This is what I crave for the reboot and Shadow is doing a good job of it so far. Not perfect, but good.
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Old 15-09-18, 16:36   #3
Cochrane
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Oh, how to reply to this without being snarky? I'll give it a try, but if I do end up snarky, I think it's actually justified (just not helpful).

You present to us a new definition of the word puzzle, one that excludes the majority of puzzles in the game, and then go "there's not many puzzles". That doesn't tell us anything interesting about the games. It just raises the question of why you're using that definition.

Now, I can play that game as well and tear your definition apart. E.g. in my opinion a fetch quest, as commonly understood, is something where you know the location in advance, and the challenge is in getting there. Exploration-based tasks, and tasks where you don't even know that you're looking for something or what you're looking for in advance, are something else.

But that's just splitting weird hairs. Here's the thing: Tomb Raider games typically have various gameplay modes. They overlap, but for 90% of any given game, you can say pretty clearly which mode you're in. I'd say these modes are:

- Combat (obvious)
- Acrobatics, including platforming and weird traps where you can tell in advance where you need to go, and the challenge is performing the proper moves.
- Sections where you need to figure something out or find something in an area that is otherwise mostly quiet.

The Reboot era games add Open Worlding, where you don't need to do anything but are exploring anyway to avoid the next horrible combat sequence or terribly written cutscene. Well, at least that's what I do.

However, all Crystal Dynamics games and possibly Shadow too (haven't played it yet, no time) are relatively light on the parts where it's quiet and you need to figure stuff out.

As for why people want them in Tomb Raider even though you don't: I mean, I guess because they're not you? Sorry, too snarky, sorry. But for me this is a core part of the TR experience; exploring the ancient ruins in detail and finding new routes and new caverns and new sections is a big part of what excites me about them. If that's not you, well… I guess you got your wish with the new games? Congratulations.
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Old 15-09-18, 18:05   #4
_Seth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochrane View Post
a core part of the TR experience; exploring the ancient ruins in detail and finding new routes and new caverns and new sections is a big part of what excites me about them.
Whilst I acknowledge the rest of your post, here's the bottom line: this bit excites me tremendously, too, and is all I want from a TR game.







...But that isn't a puzzle.
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Old 15-09-18, 18:27   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Seth View Post
Whilst I acknowledge the rest of your post, here's the bottom line: this bit excites me tremendously, too, and is all I want from a TR game.







...But that isn't a puzzle.
I guess you could make arguments for either way, I believe classic TR had lots of "Traversal Puzzles", trying to find the hidden crawl space with the way foward or items or a vital switch, looking at far away spot and thinking "How do I get over there?"

That said, I would love more "Proper" Puzzles like the Blood Ties translation Puzzle, maybe Lara has to do a light bit of jigsaw puzzles, but its sticking a broken slab together to read what is on it for instance.

We should have more brain teasers and such, like figuring out riddles ancient riddles to figure out what Lever to pull in a room full of levers with the wrong one killing your or something.

Last edited by Samz; 15-09-18 at 19:47.
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Old 15-09-18, 18:31   #6
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Indeed. I would call them tasks or objectives.

However, the subject matter for some of these exploration tasks would require the player to think "where would an object like this belong in this world?".

But yeah, puzzles are more of a LAU thing.

Original Tomb Raider is so much about movement and exploration. It's very action-oriented.
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Old 15-09-18, 19:36   #7
matrix54
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The classics definitely had puzzles to solve, though usually in an abstract sense. In game development, they're typically referred to as "problems," rather than a puzzle that the player needs to figure out. Tomb Raider has a great many of these.

For example:
In Palace Midas, Lara learns that she needs gold to open a door, but the only way to get gold is to turn lead into gold. This begets other problems: A path to a lead bar is out of reach, and in order to progress. In order to progress, Lara must remove a piece of the column to destroy the room. This will allow her to get a lead bar.

Another example:
The later Tibet levels in TR2, Lara must retrieve something that is stuck beneath the ice. In order to retrieve the item, above is a flaming bowl, so Lara must figure out how to tip the bowl over, which she does in the next level that takes place in the same area.

These simple tasks encompass entire levels, turning a basic level into a puzzle to solve in and of itself. Tomb Raider levels aren't quite built like this anymore. Instead, we get small challenge tombs that have the same general idea, but don't encompass the entire level.

However, there are actual puzzles in the game to solve. Tomb Raider 4 has quite a few, but the puzzle is usually the level, now whats in it.
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Old 15-09-18, 19:47   #8
tomee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochrane View Post
As for why people want them in Tomb Raider even though you don't: I mean, I guess because they're not you? Sorry, too snarky, sorry. But for me this is a core part of the TR experience; exploring the ancient ruins in detail and finding new routes and new caverns and new sections is a big part of what excites me about them. If that's not you, well… I guess you got your wish with the new games? Congratulations.
I feel like you didn't actually answer his question TBH. The part I bolded is exactly what I'm looking for in a Tomb Raider, but I too do not consider that puzzle solving.

Puzzle solving in my opinion is a nested task that encompasses fetch quests, performing tasks in the correct order using clues and riddles and possibly physics at the same time. Something the classics didn't actually have, despite fans randomly claiming they miss the puzzles from the classics.

All Seth was trying to point out was that there seems to be a dissonance between what the fans claim to miss and what they actually miss in the newer games.
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Old 15-09-18, 20:22   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Seth View Post
In TR1, 2, 3 and 5 which I'll go through a couple of times a year, I can only think of the Lost City of Tinnos food chain puzzle, the Palace Midas Omega/Upsilon lever puzzle, and maybe the London flood tanks. Other than that, I can't really think of any more.
- The doppelganger room (TR1)
- Block pushing/pulling to stop the boulder in Atlantis (TR1), and create a short circuit in Thames Wharf (TR3)
- Dealing with both cyborgs (TR5).
- The goddamn annoying first room of RX-Tech mines (TR3)
- The Sphinx area, with using switches to raise ladders and doors (TR3)
- Using the fire to lit the map with the platforms safe to jump in Lost City of Tinnos (TR3)
- Turning lead bars into gold (TR1)
- The block puzzle of Tomb of Qualopec (TR1)
- The 4 squares for the moveable block in Tomb of Tihocan (TR1)
- The Cistern flooding (TR1)
- Thor's Hammer bait (TR1)
- How to avoid the imps in Old Mill (TR5)
- The light = death in Coastal Ruins (TR3)
- The switch room in Atlantis with the pool and eggs (TR1)
- Dealing with the sleeping guard (TR5)
- X-ray room with the boxes, in which one contains a disk (TR5)
- Dealing with the cook (TR5)

Feel free to disagree with any of these.

I have an idea why this thread exists, and I'm not exactly surprised, as I was today exactly thinking about this very subject while I am in the middle of SPOILER: watching an LP of Shadow of the Tomb Raider, and 1 hour in I still haven't yet seen anything that resembles a puzzle, or anything challenging, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombraider95 View Post
I think people mostly mean the levels themselves are the puzzles.
Pretty much this quote. TR levels, particularly TR1, are just fancy padlocks, where the player needs to find a way to unlock them to progress, only to be met with another, and another, until the prize is obtained. Figuring out where to go and what to do when you're in the middle of a semi linear level with various things available for you to do is, in a way, a puzzle.

Edit: matrix54's post also nails it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Seth View Post
Never been a fan of dull ass icon-memorising-and-matching puzzles or tedious cop out one-lever-turns-multiple-gears-and-one-turns-only-one-of-the-bunch.
Well, I like them, and I wish this category of puzzles would come back.

Last edited by Blue_light; 15-09-18 at 20:36.
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Old 15-09-18, 20:46   #10
klona
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What do you mean by "Classic TR Games Don't Actually Have Any Puzzles"?

An entire level in the classics is a puzzle within itself. You need to figure out how to progress.

Just because a flashy puzzle that includes riddles and physics which can be solved in 5 mins isn't packed inside 1 room in the awfully linear area you progress (e.g. the reboot's puzzles) doesn't mean classics have no puzzles.

If you think classic levels aren't a puzzle, then you're only focused at a single tree in the forest of trees. (meaning you're not looking at the big picture)

Last edited by klona; 15-09-18 at 20:48.
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