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Old 09-07-18, 00:00   #21
AimlessThunder
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Old 09-07-18, 10:02   #22
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To those that believe that they started hating each other during Angkor Wat(?), this is not plausible to me because when Werner was trapped, Lara said to him she's going to get help. I don't think Lara would suddenly change her mind and leave him to die inside that contraption.

What could have happened to make them hate each other at this point?

Did she managed to get back with help and maybe their vendetta started some years later after Angkor Wat(?)?.

I read from some fans that Werner escaped from the trap by teleportation using the Iris. If this is the case then it still doesn't justify their hate towards each other at this point.

I'm so perplexed why they left this plot point unexplained and that makes the whole Tutorial section pointless.

As for AOD: was Lara high on cocaine when Werner came to see him because she claims Werner left her to die at Egypt when in fact at the end of TR4 Werner was offering his hand to help her escape the collapsing pyramid.
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Old 10-07-18, 18:54   #23
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Originally Posted by Zreen001 View Post
1) VonCroy in AoD was originally going to be Jean-Yves before Jean-Yves was scrapped from Chronicles.
bish wha? I literally never heard of this omg, though I suppose it makes sense for Lara to want to avenge her friend's death, although the "avenging my mentor's death despite hating him" dynamic was interesting, if left unused (like most things in AoD's plot). I suppose changing Jean-Yves to Charles Kane in Chronicles was confusing enough, but at least TRC felt more like a filler than anything, the ambitious AoD wouldn't have needed that added issue.

To answer OP's question, then yeah. Not even nitpicking, but just a simple overview of their relationship shows a lot of inconsistencies and such, but honestly, I'm not surprised. Mix AoD's messy development with the often lazy writing of video games in the days of olde, and you get some ideas slapped together with no real cohesion.
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Old 11-07-18, 11:53   #24
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Originally Posted by thabani33 View Post
As for AOD: was Lara high on cocaine when Werner came to see him because she claims Werner left her to die at Egypt when in fact at the end of TR4 Werner was offering his hand to help her escape the collapsing pyramid.
Either she really didn't remember what exactly happened (shortly after followed a traumatic experience and all that), or subconsciously she did but didn't want to admit it because she just... wanted to be pissed at him. If it weren't for Werner, lots of that stuff might not have happened at all.

I think it was on purpose that she was agitated and not thinking logically and that's why it's all the more tragic that Werner got killed after that - maybe if she was calmer she would've seen the danger coming. And her last words to him were false accusations while he tries to protect her (and himself).
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Old 11-07-18, 16:37   #25
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bish wha? I literally never heard of this omg, though I suppose it makes sense for Lara to want to avenge her friend's death, although the "avenging my mentor's death despite hating him" dynamic was interesting, if left unused (like most things in AoD's plot). I suppose changing Jean-Yves to Charles Kane in Chronicles was confusing enough, but at least TRC felt more like a filler than anything, the ambitious AoD wouldn't have needed that added issue.

To answer OP's question, then yeah. Not even nitpicking, but just a simple overview of their relationship shows a lot of inconsistencies and such, but honestly, I'm not surprised. Mix AoD's messy development with the often lazy writing of video games in the days of olde, and you get some ideas slapped together with no real cohesion.
Yes, that's the truth.
The real life Jean-Yves threatened Core with suing, if they make him as a bad guy. (hurting his image)
So they changed him to Von Croy, that's why Jean got scrapped from Chronicles too.(the model still resembles to him, even his VA is the same)

This is just an another good example of the development hell of AoD...

Yet, if they could keep Jean, that wouldn't make sense either: When Lara saves her, she ordered him to get out. From the Citadel we never see him again...so why she would be mad at him?

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Old 11-07-18, 17:13   #26
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Yes, that's the truth.
The real life Jean-Yves threatened Core with suing, if they make him as a bad guy. (hurting his image)
So they changed him to Von Croy, that's why Jean got scrapped from Chronicles too.(the model still resembles to him, even his VA is the same)

This is just an another good example of the development hell of AoD...

Yet, if they could keep Jean, that wouldn't make sense either: When Lara saves her, she ordered him to get out. From the Citadel we never see him again...so why she would be mad at him?
No, they changed him, because they didn't ask Jean to use him in 4 (so he sued them for using his Likeness without his permission), thats why Jean was only in the Beta of chronicles and changed to Charles Kane in the final version, Von Croy "Leaving" Lara is a left over from the Tribe part of the story (That was fully intended to be in the game, but because Eidos decided to just randomly remove 8 months from the games development time, Core didn't get to add the cut scenes and infact an incomplete version of 1 is still in the game files.), where a Tribe rescued Lara from the Pyramid, Von Croy eventually found them and couldn't presuade Lara to come back to London, so he left his backpack with her, the Tribe was eventually wiped out and Lara reluctantly returned home, this was actually still gonna be in the game, in the cut Germany section, there was an old Castle that Von Croy would have been excavating if I remember, and Lara would have talked to him for Information and they would argued there.
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Old 11-07-18, 19:35   #27
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As others have said, the development problems mangled their storyline beyond comprehension. As is seen in the actual games, Lara is a student, but also a friend, but also a persistent enemy. Von Croy is a mentor, an evil genius enemy, and a fairweather friend. Nothing about their relationship as presented in the Core games makes any logical sense. There’s no point in trying to make sense of it, because so much was altered according to behind-the-scenes issues that it’s impossible to make it work.

It’s a bit like a James Bond movie presenting a young Bond learning from Blofeld, but then presenting them as having an unexplained grudge which comes good because they’re really old comrades. Then in the next movie Bond is fighting an evil Blofeld in the middle of events from the first film: they’re not friends, but genuine enemies trying to kill one another. Then in the next they’re bizarrely old friends again with a new, unrelated grudge.
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Old 12-07-18, 06:34   #28
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Originally Posted by Samz View Post
... a Tribe rescued Lara from the Pyramid, Von Croy eventually found them and couldn't presuade Lara to come back to London, so he left his backpack with her, the Tribe was eventually wiped out and Lara reluctantly returned home.
I heard about this part of the story that got scrapped. However it still baffles me why Lara insists that Werner left her when he tried to convince her to come back from the tribe people. This is out of character for her to have this kind of attitude. Amanda from Legend acted in the same manner to Lara as well, she saw Lara in front of her trying so hard to free from drowning.
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Old 12-07-18, 10:21   #29
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I heard about this part of the story that got scrapped. However it still baffles me why Lara insists that Werner left her when he tried to convince her to come back from the tribe people. This is out of character for her to have this kind of attitude. Amanda from Legend acted in the same manner to Lara as well, she saw Lara in front of her trying so hard to free from drowning.
It was sorta unintentionally scrapped? Core fully intended to put in the game (its even mentioned in the website and the Virtual Lara promo thing), but Eidos took 8 months of development time out, and thats why Core had to release it "as is", for what its worth, Lara seems to be saddened by Von Croy's death , So I guess maybe she was supposed to come off as being irrational out of anger/sorrow or something, That part definitely feels underdeveloped.
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Old 13-07-18, 17:14   #30
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I'm pretty sure Lara breaking into the Von Croy offices, killing a good number of the security staff and then stealing the iris probably soured things. Although I think their friendship had to already be on the rocks for some time before that, in order for that to happen in the first place.

Were there not signs in Cambodia that their friendship was already a bit strained? Lara warned Werner about taking the iris while he acted like a smug know-it-all, and she turned out to be right, which could have made him really petty and annoyed that a teenage girl knew better haha.

It does leave a lot of blanks we have to fill in ourselves, but then it's the CORE era, none of their stories were particularly complex and fleshed out. I didn't really mind.
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