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Old 07-02-18, 20:59   #21
HD Simplicityy
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Gameplay is what drives fun factor and wanting to play in the first place. Story engages with the player emotionally, creating a journey that they will remember, or shortly forget. Games with narrative must work with the gameplay in order to be successful and enjoyable. There are tons of good to masterful game stories out in the world. Some suffer from clunky, bad gameplay. Some are the opposite, and some find a merging of them that work mostly well.

Say what you will about game stories being secondary, which they sometimes are, but I see interactive storytelling as already the next major frontier in storytelling. I play games for the enjoyment, but there are those that intrigue me with a story worth experiencing. And I sincerely hope Shadow of the Tomb Raider brings the best out of C.D...or we'll see them falter a third time.
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Old 07-02-18, 21:12   #22
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And I sincerely hope Shadow of the Tomb Raider brings the best out of C.D...or we'll see them falter a third time.
CD already gave their best with the Legacy Of Kain series. Those games were universally acclaimed for their storytelling and are still listed among games with stellar narratives. I didn't play them though. But I see lots of praise for those games' stories. I see your point though.
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Old 08-02-18, 01:21   #23
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Amy Henning worked on Legacy of Kain. Never played them either. Read good stuff about them as well.
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Old 08-02-18, 14:25   #24
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I'm the complete opposite
Video game stories never did anything for me and they probably never will (unless we're talking about Mass Effect or LIS). I would dismiss a game with horrible gameplay even if the story happens to be a masterpiece. That's just my opinion though.
I also disagree with you on following trends. That's precisely why I don't buy many video games nowadays. Developers are too scared to take huge risks or gambles just to follow the popular stuff that all other companies do. Video games nowadays are so focused on being all artsy and cinematic and being taken seriously that they aren't fun to me anymore. It's why I don't enjoy Naughty Dog games anymore. I don't see great storytelling or believable characters when I play their games. I just see a try-hard developer that wants to make movies instead. If I wanted a great story I'd be reading a book or watching a movie or TV show. I know people hate that argument but it rings true to me. None of my favorite games even come close to my favorite personal favorite movies or TV series in terms of narrative and characters. A good story in a game is just a bonus to me. Stuff like that lost importance to me over time. And it will probably be even less important for me.
Yeah so I guess it circles back to what I said, that people like different things... And hey, I didn't say CD should follow trends but I said they do because they are obviously not the ND type of developers who create new trends, they're the ones to follow them. We're only talking about storytelling here bc CD is putting a lot of emphasis on that whenever they talk about TR, and they do bc ND made a trend out of it with Uncharted nad TLOU.

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Originally Posted by HD Simplicityy View Post
Gameplay is what drives fun factor and wanting to play in the first place. Story engages with the player emotionally, creating a journey that they will remember, or shortly forget. Games with narrative must work with the gameplay in order to be successful and enjoyable. There are tons of good to masterful game stories out in the world. Some suffer from clunky, bad gameplay. Some are the opposite, and some find a merging of them that work mostly well.

Say what you will about game stories being secondary, which they sometimes are, but I see interactive storytelling as already the next major frontier in storytelling. I play games for the enjoyment, but there are those that intrigue me with a story worth experiencing. And I sincerely hope Shadow of the Tomb Raider brings the best out of C.D...or we'll see them falter a third time.
I agree with you, and for me an emotional journey is way more compelling and more memorable (and harder to achieve!) than fun gameplay so I appreciate it more And in that regard TR doesn't even compare to Uncharted 4 or TLOU games. Everybody can come up with new fun stuff but it really takes A LOT MORE on the creative side to make your game an emotional experience. And it takes a lot more for other's to surpass you once you achieve that. That's why I'd like TR to nail the storytelling part..
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Old 09-02-18, 14:26   #25
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I think stories are more for RPG games. Other games usually don't have good story, they don't have enough time to develop a good story, so they should focus on gameplay. I agree that Legacy of Kain games have good story, and they also have good gameplay, definitely better than any TR CD has ever made. Althouh it was another time, games weren't so mass marketed back then.
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Old 09-02-18, 14:49   #26
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Lara crying after her first kill and literally 2 mins later going on a murder spree is just one example of that.
There's a difference between murder and justifiable homicide. What she is doing is justifiable homicide: kill or be killed. If she does not kill the bad guys they are going to kill her. It's amazing what the human mind can get us to do when our life depends on it: Aaron Ralston is an example.
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Old 09-02-18, 18:52   #27
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So... follow the trend and make a cinematic game or just focus on gameplay?
CD just need to stick with one thing and do it properly. Because even though "gameplay is king", if the narrative is problematic it is still a problem to be solved.

It feels like they worry too much about trends and pleasing people. Like, turning TR into a super realistic open world game. Ok... business is business, of course you need to sell the game. But what is also part of business is making choices knowing that it is impossible to please everyone at once. In this thread for example, there are people who love cinematics and others who hate cinematics.

Now what I would like to see CD doing is to work better on the writing, not only because I do like cinematic games... but because Tomb Raider is about travelling, discovering treasures, ancient cultures... It is about history! So I think it is the perfect place to build cool storylines around myths, treasures and what makes Lara go after them.

If you take away that part it becomes like a... 3rd person Far Cry? Survivor on a island and ocasionally taking some nameless treasures in the way of saving your friends...
Not saying Far Cry is bad, but if I can play Far Cry then why would I play TR?

And before someone accuses me of comparing TReboot to classic TR, I'm reffering to the new games and the marketing CD builds around them. Such as this trailer, or this post on facebook.

"We travel for romance, we travel for architecture and we travel to be lost".
If they sell this idea, they should deliver it! But they're a bit far from doing it since they focus so much on the combat/shooting.

Last edited by n00basaur; 09-02-18 at 18:54.
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Old 09-02-18, 18:58   #28
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So... follow the trend and make a cinematic game or just focus on gameplay?
CD just need to stick with one thing and do it properly. Because even though "gameplay is king", if the narrative is problematic it is still a problem to be solved.

It feels like they worry too much about trends and pleasing people. Like, turning TR into a super realistic open world game. Ok... business is business, of course you need to sell the game. But what is also part of business is making choices knowing that it is impossible to please everyone at once. In this thread for example, there are people who love cinematics and others who hate cinematics.

Now what I would like to see CD doing is to work better on the writing, not only because I do like cinematic games... but because Tomb Raider is about travelling, discovering treasures, ancient cultures... It is about history! So I think it is the perfect place to build cool storylines around myths, treasures and what makes Lara go after them.

If you take away that part it becomes like a... 3rd person Far Cry? Survivor on a island and ocasionally taking some nameless treasures in the way of saving your friends...
Not saying Far Cry is bad, but if I can play Far Cry then why would I play TR?

And before someone accuses me of comparing TReboot to classic TR, I'm reffering to the new games and the marketing CD builds around them. Such as this trailer, or this post on facebook.

"We travel for romance, we travel for architecture and we travel to be lost".
If they sell this idea, they should deliver it! But they're a bit far from doing it since they focus so much on the combat/shooting.
If only they could make up their minds. But you can achieve both if you balance it.....and that beam is tricky. CD has been more concerned with marketing and making a dollar than improving on each iteration. I hope they've learned this time.
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Old 11-02-18, 11:20   #29
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With the reboot story, I just feel with a lot of "don't cares" when I think I should care.

I didn't care when Roth died, the geeky guy died, when Sam was kidnapped.

I don't care whenever Lara's father is mentioned, I didn't care that he was missing and then had committed suicide, and then that Trinity had murdered him.

I didn't care that Jacob was the ancient one, I didn't care about his daughter or about protecting the lost tribe from Trinity.

I didn't care when Jonah disappeared and when he nearly died.

It just wasn't written well enough.

Why should I care about Lara's father just because it motivates her? The writing hasn't established any empathy between the audience and him. We're just forced to be interested because Lara is.

And it's like that with most of the writing. I haven't been made to care, but because Lara supposedly cares, I'm meant to just care by proxy.

----

It wouldn't be a problem if the gameplay itself was ultra-absorbing but the bulk of the gameplay is 3rd person shooting. Which in my mind isn't enough on it's own.

That makes the story extra important. And despite some good attempts by Crystal to satisfy that need in the game, it could do with being tightened up in the next game.
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Old 11-02-18, 15:03   #30
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The plot points were never the problem with either game. The problem was the horrible dialog where characters said all sorts of stuff that didn't ring true to the situation. Rarely does anyone actually talk the way people would talk in those situations. There's just glaring omissions when characters talk to each other. We sit there with our controllers in hand waiting for a character to say something relevant, ask the question we're thinking, follow the clues and come to the same conclusion we've guessed, and they never do.
I have to agree with this. I just replayed Rise a couple days ago and I was thinking how short they were keeping some of the dialogues, especially when Lara and Sophia were interacting with each other. When Lara first reached the geothermal valley she almost just stood there and let Sophia kill her without trying to explain the situation in detail. TReboot was even worse. For example when Grim or Alex died they didn't even talk about it at all.

Besides the badly written dialogue, one other thing that also hinders Lara partially is Crystal's/Square's infatuation with Richard Croft. Rise ended with Lara saying she wants adventures for herself, not for her father or anyone else, but I'm already bracing myself for the idea that Shadow could potentially have Lara's family history involved more than the 2 previous games combined. Jesus, just announce a spin off already featuring Richard Croft and let Lara have her adventures in Tomb Raider for herself and herself only.

Last edited by tomee; 11-02-18 at 15:10. Reason: typo
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