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Old 09-01-17, 19:26   #191
Nigel Cassidy
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EDIT: You guys might kill me, but Uncharted 4 is more Tomb Raider than RotTR (not much, but slightly more, the puzzles are better, the exploration is a little bit less obvious and "garbage collector", and the platforming is better). It's sad.
I won't kill you for that at all, but in my opinion the platforming in U4 offers no challenge at all. And I'm fine with that...
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Old 09-01-17, 19:28   #192
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It happened in AoD in fact. Too bad the controls weren't finished, but the movement mechanics were the best in the series (no blocky world but fixed jump distances).
I'm not going to say they were the best... But for me, AOD, not as a Tomb Raider game, but a standalone title, is magic. I love the platforming segments that get me feeling slow and pensive. The somewhat slow movements accompanied by the beautiful smooth animations.

Something that bothers my incredibly neurotic mind in AOD, are the ladders.

I really wish they didn't use "realistic" ladders, but ladders that were fit to the scale of her original ladder-climb movements. Because these movements should also be used for the rock free-climbing, or any climbing of vines.

As well, from my memory, the world of AOD does not feel scaled to Lara's movements. Because the classics are created with the block-editor, all of the world is perfectly fit for Lara's giant jumps. However, AOD is not the case. I guess these are "issues" you encounter when you decide for a somewhat more realistic environment design, particularly within urban and industrial settings.

It remains on my mind, that you could re-create AOD with the classic editor/ engine. In other words, perhaps there is a smoother, more gradual transition space between the classic titles and what AOD strives for, that would feel more familiar to the original Tomb Raider titles.

Lara just is not as nimble in AOD. :/
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Old 09-01-17, 19:51   #193
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I really wish they didn't use "realistic" ladders, but ladders that were fit to the scale of her original ladder-climb movements. Because these movements should also be used for the rock free-climbing, or any climbing of vines.

As well, from my memory, the world of AOD does not feel scaled to Lara's movements. Because the classics are created with the block-editor, all of the world is perfectly fit for Lara's giant jumps. However, AOD is not the case. I guess these are "issues" you encounter when you decide for a somewhat more realistic environment design, particularly within urban and industrial settings.
I don't agree here. I think this is a great improvement, urban scenarios in the classic felt somewhat weird because... that's not how a city looks xD And the tomby environments were in the same grandious scale as they were in the previous games.

And I don't know why you want ladders to be gigantic just because of sharing animations. I mean, there is still rock, fence and others kind of wall climb. And ladders. What's wrong with having real ladders? It's just another move.

I also loved being able to jump over and climb railings.
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Old 09-01-17, 19:57   #194
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I don't agree here. I think this is a great improvement, urban scenarios in the classic felt somewhat weird because... that's not how a city looks xD

And the tomby environments were in the same grandious scale as they were in the previous games.

And I don't know why you want ladders to be gigantic just because of sharing animations. I mean, there is still rock, fence and others kind of wall climb. And ladders. What's wrong with having real ladders? It's just another move.

I also loved being able to jump over and climb railings.
Lara is not quite how a human looks.
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Old 09-01-17, 20:25   #195
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Lara is not quite how a human looks.
Lara is how a cartoony human look. But the environments in Tomb Raider tend, or try to be realistic.

Again I don't know why the complain about the ladder thingy. I just don't get how adding a new move is something negative. It adds a lot to inmersion. Well, more exactly, having enormeous ladders in realistic environments where they don't fit sustract inmersion.
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Old 09-01-17, 20:49   #196
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Lara is how a cartoony human look. But the environments in Tomb Raider tend, or try to be realistic.

Again I don't know why the complain about the ladder thingy. I just don't get how adding a new move is something negative. It adds a lot to inmersion. Well, more exactly, having enormeous ladders in realistic environments where they don't fit sustract inmersion.
Atlantean mutants subtract immersion too.

My point being that the world is stylized to some extent, and that to alter certain aspects of this state for the fulfillment of realism, as if realism is the standard, goes against the initial style of the world.

Because some of the scale and proportion is limited or affected by the mechanics of the game, it would be prioritizing the visuals over the rules, or mechanics of the gameplay, and prioritizing realism over this as well.

Whether the visual style is realistic, or some form of cartoon style, these visuals are always presented realistically, believably, or convincingly. This is done by the rendering, the subtleties of how lighting works, wet surfaces look, and other such characteristics that help immerse us in the world. So I understand the importance and desire.

However, to change what was a wide ladder to a thin ladder and have it operate differently and feature a different animation seems excessive and obsessive when the ladder function already exists and works fine, it's just wide.

I'm certainly being picky about it, and certainly we are quite easily able to run, jump and satisfyingly grab onto ladders, perhaps even from angles. But it's the reasoning that bothers me. Mainly, I don't want to see any numerical values changed in Lara's movements for the sake of easing onto a ladder that is smaller for such a frivolous detail. As we already know Lara is a wide-turning individual, and making our way towards anything that is smaller than usual isn't always easy. But Lara's movements are certainly a larger and more important anchor in the game, than to be altered to fit a regular-sized ladder for the sake of realism in a game that is not all that realistic.

A wide ladder wouldn't turn anyone's head in a world like this:


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Old 09-01-17, 21:05   #197
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Atlantean mutants subtract immersion too.

My point being that the world is stylized to some extent, and that to alter certain aspects of this state for the fulfillment of realism, as if realism is the standard, goes against the initial style of the world.

Because some of the scale and proportion is limited or affected by the mechanics of the game, it would be prioritizing the visuals over the rules, or mechanics of the gameplay, and prioritizing realism over this as well.

Whether the visual style is realistic, or some form of cartoon style, these visuals are always presented realistically, believably, or convincingly. This is done by the rendering, the subtleties of how lighting works, wet surfaces look, and other such characteristics that help immerse us in the world. So I understand the importance and desire.

However, to change what was a wide ladder to a thin ladder and have it operate differently and feature a different animation seems excessive and obsessive when the ladder function already exists and works fine, it's just wide.

I'm certainly being picky about it, and certainly we are quite easily able to run, jump and satisfyingly grab onto ladders, perhaps even from angles. But it's the reasoning that bothers me. Mainly, I don't want to see any numerical values changed in Lara's movements for the sake of easing onto a ladder that is smaller for such a frivolous detail. As we already know Lara is a wide-turning individual, and making our way towards anything that is smaller than usual isn't always easy. But Lara's movements are certainly a larger and more important anchor in the game, than to be altered to fit a regular-sized ladder for the sake of realism in a game that is not all that realistic.

A wide ladder wouldn't turn anyone's head in a world like this:

Okay, the only reason is madness then. Fine. I disagree.
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Old 09-01-17, 21:20   #198
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Well it would certainly be madness to alter the entire operation that is Lara's movements to incorporate a thin ladder, for the sake of making the visuals a little bit more realistic. The only place such a desire comes from is the preference of realism any unique style.

But, for those who think the mechanics of the game are there for the purpose of being as "good" as possible, to allow for "easy" interaction with the subject matter, then such a reasoning isn't madness.

But I do think it would be madness to dismiss the systems as integral in characterizing and defining the game's experience and identity as much as the visuals do.
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Old 09-01-17, 21:24   #199
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Well it would certainly be madness to alter the entire operation that is Lara's movements to incorporate a thin ladder, for the sake of making the visuals a little bit more realistic. The only place such a desire comes from is the preference of realism any unique style.

But, for those who think the mechanics of the game are there for the purpose of being as "good" as possible, to allow for "easy" interaction with the subject matter, then such a reasoning isn't madness.

But I do think it would be madness to dismiss the systems as integral in characterizing and defining the game's experience and identity as much as the visuals do.
Making a normal ladder climbable isn't disminising the systems. It's only adding more. It's enrichening. Thinking otherwise it's certainly madness.

EDIT: Sometimes we agree and I find your posts interesting, but some other times it's like talking to a philosopher on LSD, pal xDDDD

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Old 09-01-17, 23:18   #200
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Well, I'm right now playing U4 and I don't agree, the animations are almost flawless, and the white ledges are way less painful than RotTR's (yes, there's still white ledges specially in the main path, but they are less painful to watch and some ledges aren't painted, specially in the alternative ways).
You think the way he hops from one ledge to a ledge above is flawless ?

Hmm , to each his..."Eyes" , I guess ?

Anyway , one can't judge the gameplay properly just simply based on watching , but from what I've watched I don't like how it's VERY restricted and heavily-cinematic (well , that UC though) , and I didn't find the puzzles more challenging than Rise's AT ALL (in fact , I prefer the latter's puzzles) , neither is deciding what interactive in your path and what's not .

Based on watching I can only say that UC4's better than Rise just in terms of location variety and story .

Okay , but that's off-topic , sorry .
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