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Old 30-08-17, 06:37   #11
Avalon SARL
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Bring back the twin pistols and get rid of SI.

This for that

End of argument
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Old 30-08-17, 08:31   #12
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When was tomb raider ever a challenging platformer or when were the puzzles really hard?
Have i missed the games where that was the case?

Tomb Raider was never really challenging out of game design, it was challenging because of limitations of the technology.

Was the survival instinct too much in the reboot? Yeah.
Could the "Puzzles" have been a bit deeper? Yeah.
Would it have been nice to have more Variety in the way the puzzles are created? Yeah.
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Old 30-08-17, 09:21   #13
Avalon SARL
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Originally Posted by Mani_Man View Post
When was tomb raider ever a challenging platformer or when were the puzzles really hard?
Have i missed the games where that was the case?

Tomb Raider was never really challenging out of game design, it was challenging because of limitations of the technology.

Was the survival instinct too much in the reboot? Yeah.
Could the "Puzzles" have been a bit deeper? Yeah.
Would it have been nice to have more Variety in the way the puzzles are created? Yeah.
When you needed to backtrack all your way somewhere, or have accessed a new area which needed a key and you missed finding that key because there is no angelic light spotting it for you (), then that is challenging in itself and items were put in hard to find places.

There were technology limitations, but I bet that if the old formula was still adapted today and updated, a huge difference will be noticed between how easy and silly todays games are.

If Lar is exploring a newly discovered area, why the hell will there be a map for it to guide us.

It is newly discovered, who drew this map

We need no map to follow to find items; we need to examine and discover the place and understand it
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Old 30-08-17, 09:31   #14
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Although platforming in the classics had some easy mechanics like the running jump after hopping backwards once, every time there was pressure on you, platforming became challenging. Either because a boulder was rolling behind you or because you opened a door with a timer and had to make it in time, more often than not you wouldn't have the time to carefully plan your jumps and instead had to master the platforming mechanics.

And like Avalon SARL said, the puzzles were hard because you had no hand holding and had to find the keys and levers by yourself.
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Old 30-08-17, 10:05   #15
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The Classic TR had challenging platforming which had nothing to do with tech limitations , and when combined with some vicious and unexpected traps , it even gets more and more challenging , there weren't much puzzles (if at all) in the first three games , but the ones in TR4 were super challenging , imo .

With that being said , I don't think the fact that the classics had no white markings made me actually "think" or "guess" about what I could interact with and what I couldn't , thanks to the world being nothing but a bunch of blocks , It was never really hard to find your way even without any whiteness , perfectly cuboid-shaped columns with sharp edges don't really need a splash of white paint in order to look painfully interactive , same can be said about a single perfectly straight crack in a wall for shimmying , ladder textures , singular ropes hanging alone out of nothingness etc .
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Old 30-08-17, 10:35   #16
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The Classic TR had challenging platforming which had nothing to do with tech limitations , and when combined with some vicious and unexpected traps , it even gets more and more challenging , there weren't much puzzles (if at all) in the first three games , but the ones in TR4 were super challenging , imo .

With that being said , I don't think the fact that the classics had no white markings made me actually "think" or "guess" about what I could interact with and what I couldn't , thanks to the world being nothing but a bunch of blocks , It was never really hard to find your way even without any whiteness , perfectly cuboid-shaped columns with sharp edges don't really need a splash of white paint in order to look painfully interactive , same can be said about a single perfectly straight crack in a wall for shimmying , ladder textures , singular ropes hanging alone out of nothingness etc .
Good point here.

These things were easily spotted in many places and still getting lost was easy.

TR3 was very deceiving in hiding some of these the cracks and crawling spaces were hidden behind bushes if i can remember.

But being non marked required some discovery and having to look around before actually shimmying somewhere.

Following the white paint now just gives a hint we are on the right direction.
And in the classics if i can recall, there were many areas we had acces to but they lead to dead ends
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Old 30-08-17, 11:09   #17
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Quote:
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The Classic TR had challenging platforming which had nothing to do with tech limitations , and when combined with some vicious and unexpected traps , it even gets more and more challenging , there weren't much puzzles (if at all) in the first three games , but the ones in TR4 were super challenging , imo .

With that being said , I don't think the fact that the classics had no white markings made me actually "think" or "guess" about what I could interact with and what I couldn't , thanks to the world being nothing but a bunch of blocks , It was never really hard to find your way even without any whiteness , perfectly cuboid-shaped columns with sharp edges don't really need a splash of white paint in order to look painfully interactive , same can be said about a single perfectly straight crack in a wall for shimmying , ladder textures , singular ropes hanging alone out of nothingness etc .
Where was this challenging platforming?
Even now when i play the games i see tank controls that force me to work unnatural tedious instead of organic.
Camera and movement do the rest.
I dont know, i consider myself a pretty average player but i really cant remember the platforming ever being really challenging even when i was younger...maybe then thats just me who thought it was nothing special.

The white markings in the reboot are really a bit unnecessary but i can look over that when im running through the game.

I simply dont get this kind of acting high and mighty that many Tomb raider fans seem to have when it comes to puzzles etc.
This constantly calling other gamers dumb, calling games and puzzles dumb when Tomb Raider at no time was in a top ten of the most challening video games ever.
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Old 30-08-17, 12:03   #18
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I hate how easy games have become. And if anything - they are making even veteran gamers lazier and dumber too (I include myself in this a little bit too)

I remember the good old days - games like Silent Hill 2 and 3 with their puzzle difficulty settings (easy to hard) and their cryptic riddles and poems..
That darn water treatment puzzle in Resident Evil 3..
Now most people might not find those hard, but they are in comparison to a lot of 'puzzles' in todays games - which normally just involve flipping a single switch or finding a key nearby.

I miss backtracking in games - like the earlier Resident Evil games.. where you'd find a key, and have to backtrack to use it..
Modern games which use this normally place the door or item RIGHT next to the key item anyway - or you have waypoints and markers covering the screen HUD

IMO think ALL games should include Options to turn on and off such features - similar to TRU's player tailoring I guess.
If people don't want white ledges in TR - have an option to blend them in?

If people get stuck - use S.I or god forbid - a walkthrough online!!!

The problem is, most people these days have no patience and want instant gratification (noticed it not just in gaming either)
If they get stuck for more than a few minutes, they throw a tandrum and give up playing..
Which is why developers play dumb and try and town down puzzles so that everyone can play (even if the game is rated Mature 18 and over)

It is a shame - coz it ruins it for the rest of us that want a challenge!
I defo think TR should follow the Uncharted route in terms of forcing players to complete a puzzle which is on the main path (NOT optional)
LAU did it no problems, so why are people struggling with it now?

Games like Silent Hill 2 and 3 offered a totally different gameplay experience depending on the puzzle difficulty you chose.
SH3 even added completely NEW locked doors, keys and puzzles if you select Hard - yet they do not exist on Easy or Normal.

IIRC - RE Outbreak also did this - removing certain level details on Easy Mode.. such as locked doors and keys.. enemies reduced, more ammo etc
Why can't TR have this? Why can't the 'white ledges paint' be the same as the glowing icons in S.I?
So the ledges only glow when S.I is activated? Or perhaps only appear on Easy and Normal mode? If a player selects Hard Mode, the ledges could be blended in and harder to spot? They'd only have to remove some textures.. easy enough, right?

Last edited by dcw123; 30-08-17 at 12:07.
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Old 30-08-17, 12:15   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mani_Man View Post
I simply dont get this kind of acting high and mighty that many Tomb raider fans seem to have when it comes to puzzles etc.
This constantly calling other gamers dumb, calling games and puzzles dumb when Tomb Raider at no time was in a top ten of the most challening video games ever.
I see your point.

The most challenging thing about platforming in the older games was getting used to how slow and clumsy Lara felt to a new player. Once you overcame that, you rarely (if ever) missed a jump. As convoluted and non-linear as some levels could be (which I loved and I do want back), you could still generally find your way if you just ran around a bit and looked carefully.

I think there's an attitude among some fans of the classic series, that there's absolutely nothing to be praised about the Reboot games, even from an objective standpoint. I don't like the Reboot being marketed as "Tomb Raider" personally, for a lot of reasons. However, I am very fair, and I can recognise there are some good things in them, and that they're objectively not bad games in their own right. I don't think the puzzle-solving is one of the problem areas. In the optional tombs and even in the main campaign of Rise, there are some pretty great puzzles in my opinion, ones that do take some thought if you don't want to use the dummy button. The only thing I wish is that there was more of that in the non-optional main story.

I do see a problem with a lot of levels being too linear and simple though, lacking feelings of isolation and exploration. That's been a problem with CD's games since Legend.

Last edited by Yeauxleaux; 30-08-17 at 12:27.
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Old 30-08-17, 12:56   #20
Avalon SARL
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Originally Posted by Mani_Man View Post
Where was this challenging platforming?

Did you play the classic games?
Even some of TRLAU...

Because obviously you haven't or you were so good at them you did not feel and experience what we did
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