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Old 13-04-18, 21:44   #101
Cochrane
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Originally Posted by Catapharact View Post
But you know... He has a point on the matter... Just that the African setting has been done to death numerous times. Lets change the venue to the United States and see how much more interesting things get...

Lara drops by Philadelphia and steals the Liberty Bell. The Independence Hall gets destroyed due to collateral damage resulting in her taking out an insurmountable number of individuals from the National Guards; Yet all the while Lara Croft is humming Rule Britannia to herself while she gets to work on the Guard.

As a final act of cheekiness, she plants the Union Jack where the Independence Hall stood and a huge sign underneath saying "God Save the Queen you lowly Colonials!"
Actually an interesting idea, though to be honest, I'm always a bit doubtful about stuff like that set in the US. Their mythology has been repeated a lot, but it kind of lacks depth. Like, some of their biggest myths include:
- Some guys threw tea into a sea!
- A dude rode somewhere and delivered a message!
- They made a bell to signal an important event. They did so really badly, so the bell is broken now, but it's still the best historic artefact they got.
I love "Hamilton" as much as anyone, but compared to what e.g. the french had at that time…

Anyway, the result is always that a lot of people want to set stories there, because it's important, but the stories (that aren't biographies) always have to go deep into conspiracy theory town, with Illuminati, Freemasons and so on, and tie every single important person in that history into their story somehow. Other locations and mythologies allow for truly giant past events and truly big things that are hidden and buried somewhere. With the US, we know pretty much where everything was, and all the big impressive things were built decades later. Lara can destroy Independence Hall, but she's not going to find an ancient castle underneath.

Edit to add: Bah, this seems like wild rambling now that I read it back. I'll try to clarify it tomorrow once I've slept. If I still remember my point by then.

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Originally Posted by Nigel Cassidy View Post
I presume you're talking about pre-reboot Lara? Because if it was reboot 'Lara' she would be traitor to her country
Oh, I think it would work well, they just need to change the dialogue to "I have got to steal the Declaration of Independence".

Last edited by Cochrane; 13-04-18 at 21:48.
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Old 14-04-18, 00:51   #102
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^ Well, we do have the mythological 7 cities of Cibola:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Cities_of_Gold

But once again, Lara would be venturing into desert country to plunder those.

Contrary to Cattie's wishes, there just isn't that much "white people" stuff to steal, because white people haven't been around here all that long. So she's back to pillaging downtrodden indigenous people once again.

Hmm, what about searching for a secret Confederate hoard of gold? She could get captured by the Ku Klux Klan, get chained to a post, and make a daring escape from that just as she is about to get bullwhipped. When she finds the gold, the ghost of Nathan Bedford Forrest would make an awesome boss. She has to kill him before he can raise a horde of Confederate undead to reconstitute the CSA...
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Old 14-04-18, 02:34   #103
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Originally Posted by Cochrane View Post
It's sad that such interesting questions always get derailed because everyone is so triggered by "political correctness" or anything even hinting in that general direction.

The fact of the matter is that Tomb Raider, up to the reboots, displayed a very colonial attitude: The ancient treasures are there for white people to find, so they can put them in museums. The locals are not a factor, or are easily manipulated fools, or are deeply immoral or whatever. This attitude is directly copied from the Indiana Jones movies, which in turn copied them from pulp fiction of the early 20th century, which in turn was based on fantastic reports of ancient temples discovered by white people in South America, Africa, India, Egypt and so on throughout the 19th century; white people who generally regarded the local population with nothing but disdain.

Tomb Raider's main excuse is that it never actually portrays Lara's hobby as the right thing to do; just as a fun thing to do until it reaches the point where she's the only one in a position to save the world.

Of course Tomb Raider can survive as it has before. The real question is whether it should, or whether it should try to change. The reboot and Rise tried, but frankly, I don't like what they came up with.
Just want to thank you for explaining the issue concisely for anyone who genuinely doesn't understand (while others make reference to "SJWS" and something potentially insensitive a celebrity did one time )

I agree that their attempt in Rise was flawed but I don't think it was intended to be the end of that discussion. After all, Lara still ignored the natives wishes for most of the game and it would get tiring fast if Lara had to prove she was raiding for the morally right reasons in every adventure. In another thread someone asked what would be Lara's main character conflict after the Trinity/Dad stuff is over, and I think delving deeper into this issue could be both necessary and interesting- provided they have the right writers and don't pull a hollow "both sides are bad" à la Bioshock Infinite.
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Old 14-04-18, 12:26   #104
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Originally Posted by Sir Launcelot View Post
Hmm, what about searching for a secret Confederate hoard of gold? She could get captured by the Ku Klux Klan, get chained to a post, and make a daring escape from that just as she is about to get bullwhipped. When she finds the gold, the ghost of Nathan Bedford Forrest would make an awesome boss. She has to kill him before he can raise a horde of Confederate undead to reconstitute the CSA...
You defeat him by whistling Dixie's Land
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Old 14-04-18, 18:03   #105
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This left vs right thing to me is ridiculous, I believe all life is equal and that people should be perceived in line with their personal behaviour; not as groups, I also believe that there is a spectrum to everything and it is unfair to read one opinion of one person on a forum, or anywhere else and decide on a label for them, however, there are people who seem to be so black and white about everything that they leave no room for mutual understanding and simply state their opinions as fact. Of course there are extremists attached to any ideology whether they could be seen as "SJW", "Trumpist" or any other label you would give them but almost all the time people are a complex mix of many different thoughts and opinions that may not be in line with just one ideology and that can only be a good thing in my opinion, as any ideology has bit of a perfection complex due to any idea outside not being in accordance with the rest of said ideology, so hearing one opinion on this forum about sexualization for example, doesn't make them an "SJW" or whatever the opposite would be. I do see though that stereotypes are a thing and sometimes they make sense.

We should aim to be empathetic and kind people that help and support others but not to the point that art can not even be expressive anymore, where people are so quick to be offended and seemingly looking for something to be offended by. Bullying and hate though are totally different to looking to be offended.

Whichever way you look at it, it is like there are people out there who want us to be nothing but cutouts of eachother, devoid of individual personality and sharing the same opinions worldwide, not expressing inner thoughts or feelings through any art forms be it music, literature, poetry, the list goes on. Let's all take a chill pill, be encouraging and supportive to one another and relish in our uniqueness and oneness for the wonderful paradox it is.

Closer to the thread subject, I personally do think PC culture has gone too far in ways, including with Tomb Raider in some areas. I don't hate reboot Lara at all but she is the product of our changing world, as it is today. I quite like the idea of a woman who is sexy and smart but right now that isn't the character they're going for and that's also okay. Even though good things may have come from this PC world I think we need to stop the "us vs you" attitude and stop trying to make everyone the same. That being said, I do think Tomb Raider will survive this era and continue on changing with the times, it's up to the people as individuals whether they like the changes or not.

Sorry, I got carried away and went off on a tangent but it's all worthy of attention and reflection nonetheless.
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Old 14-04-18, 18:07   #106
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Originally Posted by leomage View Post
Just want to thank you for explaining the issue concisely for anyone who genuinely doesn't understand (while others make reference to "SJWS" and something potentially insensitive a celebrity did one time )

I agree that their attempt in Rise was flawed but I don't think it was intended to be the end of that discussion. After all, Lara still ignored the natives wishes for most of the game and it would get tiring fast if Lara had to prove she was raiding for the morally right reasons in every adventure. In another thread someone asked what would be Lara's main character conflict after the Trinity/Dad stuff is over, and I think delving deeper into this issue could be both necessary and interesting- provided they have the right writers and don't pull a hollow "both sides are bad" à la Bioshock Infinite.
Thank you, I try!

Oh, Bioshock Infinite… a game that sets out with a complex, interesting world that is a brutal takedown of nostalgia for early 20th-century America, steampunk and the like, and ends up throwing that all away, with the final lesson being "Quantum mechanics (specifically the sci-fi story version that has nothing to do with reality) is weird!" It's got a lot of very good ideas, but the ending undercuts a lot of them. A shame, really, but ultimately still one of the best game stories I ever saw.
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