I know were CD are going wrong!

[Ward Dragon]

Originally Posted by gtkilla

BTW, the only reason that there are so many long corridors in TR:A is because of loading times. In the original, you could stream two huge areas seamlessly (Huge sphinx - 2 underwater sphinxes, SotS) because of the way the engine and environments were designed, but that's not possible with the new games.

I really don't think that's true. Soul Reaver 1 had huge, expansive environments to rival any TR game and it was made on an older version of the engine used in Legend and TRA. I'm sure the engine can do it.

Originally Posted by spelunking

There were a few times though that you'd be swimming underwater and for some reason, she'd roll and turn around though all you were doing was using arrow keys. This has happened to me a few times within the course of two levels.

If you hit forward quickly followed by backward, it's the same as pressing the reverse-roll button

Originally Posted by spelunking

If I understand myrmaaaaad correctly, I think that is exactly what she was saying: that the controls shouldn't be from the character's perspective but the player's. That way, your left would ALWAYS be Lara's left, regardless of camera angle. Basically, think of the way Lara runs: like that. Up is always forward, whichever way Lara is facing, so even if she's facing you (rather than with her back to you), you hit up and she runs towards you. I think that is what she meant.

I thought she was saying the opposite, that the controls should always be from Lara's perspective regardless of camera angle.

Originally Posted by spelunking

I don't think the look button to reset the camera would work, because when you're moving (like wall-run) the camera angle shifts again, making things difficult.

I was thinking that the camera should only shift to show us something (like when we enter a room or what a switch did). We should always be able to break out of a preset camera angle, and the camera should never change angles while we are doing something tricky.

[spelunking]

Originally Posted by Ward Dragon

If you hit forward quickly followed by backward, it's the same as pressing the reverse-roll button

I thought she was saying the opposite, that the controls should always be from Lara's perspective regardless of camera angle.

I was thinking that the camera should only shift to show us something (like when we enter a room or what a switch did). We should always be able to break out of a preset camera angle, and the camera should never change angles while we are doing something tricky.

Ah! Darn redundant controls to heck!

I really don't think she was saying the opposite from you. "I still think that Lara's right should always be my right, Lara's left should always be my left, regardless of from what the direction the camera is viewing her." You see? But I can wait for her to clarify.

I think camera problems can easily be solved with more beta testing. Open beta testing up to people from this forum. We're all very experienced raiders and would be able to note whenever the camera shifts to a bad angle. I honestly don't know how this aspect escaped their beta testers. It was a persistent problem.

[anniversarytr11]

well im replaying tr1 and yes there are levers and keys but the traversial is very varied and imaginative but if you look at the other core tomb raiders the levers and stuff vary because they could do it then with development of the engine.

[myrmaad]

The crates were amusing in TR1 but CD's Lara is a "different animal" and no, I don't want her pushing a lot of boxes since she's so different and lost its novelty aspect. Finding keys and pushing switches is still very welcome to me. I don't want Lara World to reflect reality that much, it was always a sci-fi flavored game. Realistic touches enhance the game but shouldn't constrict it.

I really don't think she was saying the opposite from you. "I still think that Lara's right should always be my right, Lara's left should always be my left, regardless of from what the direction the camera is viewing her." You see? But I can wait for her to clarify.

Yes. That's what I said, I want my perspective to always be as if I'm in Lara's head. Her right and my right should be one and the same, i.e. Lara is an extension of me, so that If I'm in Lara's head, right should always be in the direction of Lara's right shoulder, if I have to stop for a second and press Look to get my bearings (as I would if I were Lara) then flipping to the right should be in the direction of Lara's right shoulder. That's what the Look button is for.

I think my biggest beef with CD's whole design scheme, is that they designed their Lara as eye-candy, so the game is about watching her, whereas the Core design was about being her.

This brings us to the trouble with emotions. In the old games one could create your own emotional life and project it onto her, she was so open, like a blank chalkboard, that you could script your own reactions and cast them onto her. In the new games it's all about watching her emotions and reactions, and the player is taken outside of those, you're now a bystander watching her emotional reactions, rather than imagining her as you. It's become a movie, where before it was a fantasy.

I'm kind of confused about what Jennifer was describing, so I'll quote Spelunking again, because this is exactly what I mean:

If I understand myrmaaaaad correctly, I think that is exactly what she was saying: that the controls shouldn't be from the character's perspective but the player's. That way, your left would ALWAYS be Lara's left, regardless of camera angle. Basically, think of the way Lara runs: like that. Up is always forward, whichever way Lara is facing, so even if she's facing you (rather than with her back to you), you hit up and she runs towards you. I think that is what she meant.

[frigabond]

"I think my biggest beef with CD's whole design scheme, is that they designed their Lara as eye-candy, so the game is about watching her, whereas the Core design was about being her."

Welcome fellow Tombraider!! My heart soars at the knowledge that i'm not alone (I am Legend)

I just love that sentence and wholeheartedly agree. The present controls also take away some of 'the feel' to my mind. I don't find myself swerving and leaping in my chair as much in the CD tombraiders.

IMHO of course! So put the pitchforks down folks.

[SparkleCroft07]

I agree with that CD needs more complex gaming in TR. I was bored with TRA after playing it like 5 times. I never get bored of the classics.

Good thread btw.

[spelunking]

Originally Posted by anniversarytr11

but if you look at the other core tomb raiders the levers and stuff vary because they could do it then with development of the engine.

?? What does that mean? A lever is a lever. The aesthetics don't matter. It's still the same old.

Originally Posted by myrmaad

The crates were amusing in TR1 but CD's Lara is a "different animal" and no, I don't want her pushing a lot of boxes since she's so different and lost its novelty aspect. Finding keys and pushing switches is still very welcome to me. I don't want Lara World to reflect reality that much, it was always a sci-fi flavored game. Realistic touches enhance the game but shouldn't constrict it.

I would be willing to compromise with 'minimal levers/buttons'. I just wish they could think up other mechanisms. Denying them the easy way out might get them to be more creative with the puzzles.

This brings us to the trouble with emotions. In the old games one could create your own emotional life and project it onto her, she was so open, like a blank chalkboard, that you could script your own reactions and cast them onto her. In the new games it's all about watching her emotions and reactions, and the player is taken outside of those, you're now a bystander watching her emotional reactions, rather than imagining her as you. It's become a movie, where before it was a fantasy.

I dunno, we didn't have control of her during cut-scenes before. It was all scripted, and we had no choice how she would react.

I think my biggest beef with CD's whole design scheme, is that they designed their Lara as eye-candy, so the game is about watching her, whereas the Core design was about being her.

You're not just paranoid. I've seen reviews say this too. Most notably/hilariously, Yahtzee's TRA review, which criticised the game for shifting the camera to get the best view of Lara's assets rather than the ledge to which you were trying to jump, resulting in leap-of-faith game-play.

Originally Posted by frigabond

My heart soars at the knowledge that i'm not alone (I am Legend) I just love that sentence and wholeheartedly agree. The present controls also take away some of 'the feel' to my mind. I don't find myself swerving and leaping in my chair as much in the CD tombraiders.

You don't think that opinions like this:

Originally Posted by frigabond

her look shouldn't matter to me........but I'm sorry to say that it does!( I know, I'm frigabond and I'm a shallowholic) [...] She just looks somehow more 'beaten down and bloody minded ' like an overbearing aunt, not a fun of life english rose if that makes sense.Although if they'd made her look more like Kate Beckinsale then that would have been an acceptable compromise.

contribute to CrystalD's treatment of Lara as eye-candy? When people shouldn't care how she looks (because, as you said, when you play the game you ARE Lara — i.e. "being her" as opposed to "watching her") yet they still do, it indicates to CrystalD that the game isn't just about "being her'. Do you disagree?

[Ward Dragon]

Originally Posted by myrmaad

I'm kind of confused about what Jennifer was describing, so I'll quote Spelunking again, because this is exactly what I mean:

I am so confused right now "Character-oriented controls" are when the controls are always from the character's perspective, so forward moves the character in whichever direction is forward from the character's point of view, regardless of which direction the camera is facing. "Camera-oriented controls" move the character from the camera's point of view regardless of which way the character is facing, so forward would always be towards the top of the screen. Which one did you mean? This quote says that the controls should not be from the character's perspective, but then goes on to describe character-oriented controls

If I understand myrmaaaaad correctly, I think that is exactly what she was saying: that the controls shouldn't be from the character's perspective but the player's. That way, your left would ALWAYS be Lara's left, regardless of camera angle. Basically, think of the way Lara runs: like that. Up is always forward, whichever way Lara is facing, so even if she's facing you (rather than with her back to you), you hit up and she runs towards you. I think that is what she meant.

[AmericanAssassin]

Originally Posted by gtkilla

I'll admit, my "wrinkly forty year old prune hag" comment was out of line. I said it on impulse, I don't really mean most of it....and I should've picked an older age, but I didn't. My bad. However, I do think that she looks old, tired, anorexic, botox-obsessed, hungry, and dead in the mugshot. That's my honest opinion.

I completely agree with you. Her "mugshot" is one of the ugliest pictures of her I've ever seen. The picture below is the best I've seen...

[Rivendell]

Originally Posted by AmericanAssassin

I completely agree with you. Her "mugshot" is one of the ugliest pictures of her I've ever seen.

Lol!


O'Rly?