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Old 09-11-06, 16:17   #21
RAID
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Gosh there sure are pessimists here. Before you say "Crystal will ruin it cause they don't understand TR", wait until the game is released...
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Old 09-11-06, 16:47   #22
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The reason people are pessimistic about and "dissing" Crystal "saviours of TR" Dynamics is because we've seen their attempt at making a TR game we didn't like it.

Granted they MAY do things differently this time, with the AE, we'll have to wait and see. But c'mon don't be surprised if some people are doubtful that they have it in them to do things differently.

Everyone makes predictions based on the information they have. In this case all we have as fact is what has gone before... Legend.

It's NOT about Core's remake. It is their own work that they brought to the table (Legend) that does them in...


[For me anyway]
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Old 09-11-06, 17:13   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochrane
I just love to see how Crystal Developers are bashed here. "They are all incompetent and cannot understand classic TRs". Disk space an issue? "No, it fits all on a Blue-Ray disc". Which PC, PSP and PS2 certainly do have...

Disc space is not the only issue, and I think the guys at Crystal (or Core, with their stupid remake that makes everyone diss Crystal even though nobody knows how good either is) would be very happy if it was. More detailed levels also take time, developers and ultimately money to make, and none of these ressources increases as much as the requirements for graphics do in the same time.

Now for how long TRA will get: No idea. On the one hand, they don't want to disappoint anyone by making it significantly longer. On the other hand, they still have the issues with disc space, development time and money. They will not be able to take any significant work from TR1 directly. That means they will struggle if they want it to be as long as TR1. My guess would be that it is shorter than TR1, but still signifcantly longer than Legend.
If they can't do it right, don't bother. I don't want to spend full price for a game half the size, a quarter the length, because they can't fit any more on a disk or won't spend the time to make enough to actually give us a full game. The graphics are way over blown on how long they take, I'm an artist and it wouldn't take me forever to make the textures for legend. The wireframes take a bit more, but a good wireframe artist can whip thru pretty fast too. I find it silly that they had as much time to make legend as core had to make AoD and they gave us so much less. For what, slightly prettier graphics and slightly more complex wireframes? That justifies giving us half of the levels we're used to getting in a TR game??? I find that laughable. And CD started with an engine they used in 3 other games! Core made a whole new engine, controls as well as textures and wireframes. I blow my nose at CD!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmoor
The reason people are pessimistic about and "dissing" Crystal "saviours of TR" Dynamics is because we've seen their attempt at making a TR game we didn't like it.

Granted they MAY do things differently this time, with the AE, we'll have to wait and see. But c'mon don't be surprised if some people are doubtful that they have it in them to do things differently.

Everyone makes predictions based on the information they have. In this case all we have as fact is what has gone before... Legend.

It's NOT about Core's remake. It is their own work that they brought to the table (Legend) that does them in...


[For me anyway]

EXACTLY! Well put blackmoor!
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Last edited by thevman; 09-11-06 at 17:15.
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Old 09-11-06, 17:51   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmoor
The reason people are pessimistic about and "dissing" Crystal "saviours of TR" Dynamics is because we've seen their attempt at making a TR game we didn't like it.

Granted they MAY do things differently this time, with the AE, we'll have to wait and see. But c'mon don't be surprised if some people are doubtful that they have it in them to do things differently.
Oh I'm not surprised. I'm just saying that since it's a remake, people should be a bit positive about it's length.

So far I think that Crystal are doing a fine job.
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Old 09-11-06, 17:59   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhosaidAODwasbad
I've even heard that they are going to have some enviromental Physics puzzles like Legend
OMG PHYSICS puzzles they have more or less admitted that all the puzzles will be pressure plate orriented.
think of other definitions of this phrase that does not involve pressure plates
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Old 09-11-06, 18:14   #26
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The reason why I'm optimistic about it's length is because it's not next-gen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xcrushterx
OMG PHYSICS puzzles they have more or less admitted that all the puzzles will be pressure plate orriented.
think of other definitions of this phrase that does not involve pressure plates
Pressure plates are not physics. In fact, even TR4 had something that you could call pressure plates, far cooler than Legend ever had, and the game had no physics at all.

Physics-based puzzles are those like the see-saw in Bolivia, the hanging platform you have to push around in Kazakhstan, the floating "crate" you have to maneuver in England and similar. While I don't like all of these puzzles, the possibilities for new, cool puzzles thanks to physics are great.

Blackmoor: The way you say it, it's all fair. However, there are some people here who say things like "I don't think that TR:Legend developers can understand or manipulate the complexity of Midas' Palace, The Cistern, etc.". That is not a fair concern, that is a direct insult to level designers at Crystal Dynamics. Also, many people here are thinking they see trends even though CD only made one game.

thevman: Wireframe is a filling mode. Is it possible that you mean models or meshes?

If we say that we keep the level meshes of TR1 and only replace the textures by ones that are 256x256 instead of 64x64 for each square, we'd first require 16 times the texture memory. If we assume that textures will be 32 Bit RGBA instead of 8 bit palette, we are at 64 times the texture memory already. That means going from 750 KB to 48 MB textures per level (if we assume 12 used texture pages for a level), without having changed anything about the level geometry at all. These bits all need to be generated, and upsampling the old textures is certainly not going to do the job. No, it's not going to take forever, but I'm certain it will have a measurable impact.
Then, of course, if we go further and change the meshes and create new textures in the process, things are likely to take even more time and space. I'd like to know how you come to your conclusion that time and money are not really a factor. That they should rather not do the game at all than make it wrong because they lack the time and/or money is something that I agree with, though.
Lots of levels also take lots of time to test, as they will have to make sure that all levels will run on a lot of computer systems, and that there are no obvious bugs. This will have to be done like it was a new game, because technically, it is.

As for Legend, you are forgetting that you are actually getting two games that only differ by the graphics. OK, actually it's more like 1.2 games or something, but the addition of next-gen still had a lot of impact. You can blame the developers for adding next-gen at all, but it still had that impact.
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Last edited by Cochrane; 09-11-06 at 18:17.
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Old 09-11-06, 18:53   #27
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Yes, the developers should cool it and just release the game for 3 platforms instead of 9 and 2 different graphics, standard and next gen. That is what ate up all their time. Make a good game, then worry about making it for the different platforms.
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Old 09-11-06, 19:18   #28
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I would really, really, really like a game that was equal to or greater the length of the game in TR1.

My gut feeling is that at the best, and I do mean, at it's very best, we'll get a gameplay which is an hour longer than TRL IF they were efficient with whatever development time they have, by:

- not having zillions of cinematics and especially interactive cut-scenes and other bells and whistles
- having less platforms MAY mean more time to devote (not sure about this)
- they have the legend engine already, so no time wasted on that
- they really do monitor the fan forums and take on and steer the direction/development according to fan input, saving design time by listening to our suggestions (might balance out in the end though, since some of the things we ask for must take them extra time)
- they tone down a notch the attention to graphic detail (if this takes a long time to design): even if they produce a look which is 30% less graphic quality than TRL, it's still an improvement on TR1 times technology, and they could spend more time on other things e.g. inventing puzzles and opening up multiple paths / free roaming terrains etc... Even Core TRAE Lara was quite 'pointy', and that was ok for us
- they don't have to sit around a conference table and have zillions of meetings to come up with locations, plots etc... they already have the concepts from TR1 and after.

However, I think the really BIG question is: Genuinely, media and PR B/S aside, how important are the hardcore TR fans to EIDOS? Is TRA a 'frivolity' for them, e.g. if it doesn't work out, no big harm done, their risk was reduced, and they can still have the non-hardcore/new fans to entertain with TR8, presumably across multiple platforms.

Last edited by paulwork; 09-11-06 at 19:23.
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Old 09-11-06, 19:29   #29
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I think it'll be longer than the original. It will have the same 15 levels, only changed quite a bit, whilst keeping true to the originals. I'm predicting almost all the levels to be longer than the original. This is because its very hard to mess up a remake. They already have the original levels and all they have to do is add to them. TR1 levels weren't very long anyway.
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Old 09-11-06, 19:40   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochrane
The reason why I'm optimistic about it's length is because it's not next-gen.


Pressure plates are not physics. In fact, even TR4 had something that you could call pressure plates, far cooler than Legend ever had, and the game had no physics at all.

Physics-based puzzles are those like the see-saw in Bolivia, the hanging platform you have to push around in Kazakhstan, the floating "crate" you have to maneuver in England and similar. While I don't like all of these puzzles, the possibilities for new, cool puzzles thanks to physics are great.
i need proof
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