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teme9 04-12-14 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeinzFritz (Post 7227161)
@meta2tr

Now another eccentricity...

I have been lately doing some additional experiments with the blend modes available with TREP and meta2tr combined:

An effect created when placing a transparent tile in front of a fixed camera makes the complete screen get an overlay which is either plain colored or textured. It all depends of the blend modes used and the textures themselves. Nothing new so far as this has been done by builders before (at least I suppose so). But it is still not possible to use this effect throughout the game when lara cam is active.

So I thought that the way the attribute of the transparency works (second from top on the grid in Meta) with texts jumping in front of lara, which you kindly implemented in your limits breaking tool, could be added to the four lowest transparencies in the Meta grid.

If I remember right the trick is that the in front jumping transparency has one coordinate missing.

If this coordinate could be removed from the other four mentioned transparencies, (by putting the tile on the left or right side (after the shine) then all the time a round wall around the scene could jump forward and give the screen a colored tint, which, by the way reacts to all lightening in the room, the effect would be similar to fog, but much more interesting.

I hope that this text is not too confusing, and that you get the idea about what could be created this way.

It would work nice as a screen effect. I tried to achieve something similar through drawing sprites on screen with trng. I think that it wasn't possible to change the blending method of that sprite on screen though! Having some kind of color gradient as a overlay effect would be really nice :D

I must warn you though! Every big transparent object on whole screen can affect the performance. If the whole screen is filled big transparent object this will cause overdraw. The problem will be at its worst when there are multiple transparent objects drawing on top of each other. Tomb4 engine does not handle transparency that well!

HeinzFritz 04-12-14 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by teme9 (Post 7227503)
I must warn you though! Every big transparent object on whole screen can affect the performance. If the whole screen is filled big transparent object this will cause overdraw. The problem will be at its worst when there are multiple transparent objects drawing on top of each other. Tomb4 engine does not handle transparency that well!

I'm quite aware of that, but to achieve an overlay effect, I am willing to reduce the overall amount of meshes, and details. Besides, this effect would be pointless in a 255 rooms level.
On the other hand, small "flashbacks" levels with several rooms only... I can think of a thousand ways to use it.
Anyway, I have no idea still how to do the implementation of the feature myself, so let's wait for Meta2tr to either do it, or say something like: "Aaaaaah, another absurd request! I'll rather spend my time in St.Tropez, even if it is winter."

teme9 04-12-14 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeinzFritz (Post 7227629)
I'm quite aware of that, but to achieve an overlay effect, I am willing to reduce the overall amount of meshes, and details. Besides, this effect would be pointless in a 255 rooms level.
On the other hand, small "flashbacks" levels with several rooms only... I can think of a thousand ways to use it.
Anyway, I have no idea still how to do the implementation of the feature myself, so let's wait for Meta2tr to either do it, or say something like: "Aaaaaah, another absurd request! I'll rather spend my time in St.Tropez, even if it is winter."

The idea is wonderful, I am also eagerly waiting to know if it is possible! I did not mean that the idea should not be done because it might affect the performace in certain manner. If anything I'd like to see this idea working :)
Of course if there's way to make it less demanding that surely would be big plus!

HeinzFritz 05-12-14 14:23

<
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by teme9 (Post 7227661)
The idea is wonderful,

I think so too.

By the way, while experimenting I found out that another transparency mode which is built-in the exe has not been enabled in the grid system of meta2tr.

It is a subtle additive transparency with index number 10 in Turbo Pascal's updated version of TR Texture and can be set to tiles in TR Texture by typing 10 in the index box for the selected tile.

The good thing is that you can easily do it in TR Texture for one or several tiles inside the room geometry.

The bad thing is that afterwards, if you import the level into meta2tr, it reverts to opaque.

Also bad is that if you want to use this transparency on an UV unwrapped model, then you have to search, find, and change all the 1000+ fragments separately.

I hope that Meta2tr will read this post and add the feature to the next version.

HeinzFritz 09-12-14 13:49

7 - The craziest of all transparencies
 
As my experiments with transparencies and their combinations continue, I finally discovered what transparency 7 (which I wrongly assumed is just an everyday, plain opaque surface) turned out to be the craziest of all when combined with other types of transparency:

When the texture panel with the transparency attribute 7 is placed behind another transparent panel it "eats" the other's transparency and makes it invisible in the part that is in front of the transparency 7 panel. But when any object, Lara, Baddy x etc that carelessly walks or stands between the two panels it's shape hides the texture of the panel 7 and it's shape gets an overlay of the panel texture in front of it.

I suggest, instead of trying to understand the confusing text above, to simply try it out.

Note that transparency 7 (as well as transparency 10) you can apply so far only in Turbo's Tr Texture (unless Meta2tr implements these transparencies to the newest release).

Also note that transparency type 3 works only with TREP.
I do not know if 7 and 10 work with TRNG.

Titak 09-12-14 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeinzFritz (Post 7233001)
I suggest, instead of trying to understand the confusing text above, to simply try it out.

Also note that transparency type 3 works only with TREP.
I do not know if 7 and 10 work with TRNG.

Or a screenshot from you... :mis:

Do you know if it works with FLEP?

HeinzFritz 09-12-14 15:38

I know that transparency type 3 works only with TREP (Meta2tr told me that when he enlarged his grid for 3 and 4. Transparency 3 is the one of which I initially thought that it lets only shiny parts of moveables be seen through. In the meantime I discovered that combined with other transparencies the effects are, to put it mildly, stunning.
I have not tried 7 and 10 with FLEP, as I'm sticking to TREP and don't even have the NG tools and etc installed on my PC. That is one of the reasons I am encouraging all interested to try it all out themselves.
You can do it easily:
Enable the new transparencies FLEP patch and patch the exe.
Make a test room with several one tile panels (use different flowery ones to make it all more romantic) and place them like dominoes one behind the other so you can walk Lara in front, in between and behind them.
Tune it all so it looks OK in Meta.
Compile the level, then open it in Tr Texture. Find the textures on the lower dropdown menu and type in the right side upper box for every texture a value from 0 to 10.
You can easily change these at any moment without having to close Tr Texture.
Put the level in your data folder, and the hallucinations should start immediately, without any need to visit your local coffee shop.

Titak 19-05-15 21:04

When I drop my tr4 file onto the meta2tr.exe, I'm getting that "Warning - room has more than 8192 vertices" message again.
I'm used to that the first time I unpack a level since I'm using the MapMerge feature, so it's no big deal really, but I'm always having a pretty hard time finding the rooms in which this happens. The report.txt does not say which rooms this is happening in.

Am I overlooking something or am I doomed to check each room individually to see if it passes the 8192 vertex limit? :ponder:


Btw, it has been a while since I used Meta2TR and I'm still using Meta version 3.11. Is that still a good version to work with? (so I can get all features currently implemented in Meta2TR?) :ponder:


(Oh my... one of the rooms has almost 18000 vertices :yik: It's those banisters I made and used a lot in this room! :vlol:)

Level NextGen 19-05-15 21:39

In fact the merger tool can increase a lot the vertices you have in a room. I tend to only import some objects.

Anyway normally during the process you can read how many vertices has a room. Well except that it doesn't show after the merging.

Code:

Scanning file MapMergeList.txt for objects to be merged to map...
 - ANIMATING1_MIP: merging into map.done.
 - ANIMATING6_MIP: not found in map.
 - ANIMATING5_MIP: merging into map......done.
 - PLANT2: merging into map....done.
 - PLANT3: merging into map.......done.
 - PLANT5: merging into map......done.
 - PLANT6: merging into map..........done.
 - PLANT8: merging into map.................done.

So what I do is importing back the All_Rooms.mqo in meta2TR so I can know which room has too much vertices after the merging, by example :

Code:

Building file D:\TRNGLE\Adventures\BeyondIllusion\META2TR\2.0 Level\RoomAll.mqo into level...

Importing room 1 ........  418 vertices    7735 level textures  ...
Importing room 2 ........  140 vertices    7897 level textures 

The total number of room vertices in the level is 14509.

Here it's okay ;)


EDIT: Ahh read you still use meta2TR version 3.11 :yik: I advise you to upgrade with the last version 8 - I'm not sure you may have trouble to export your project to a newer version... well few things has changed - so try in a new folder

OR at least with a newer version you can know how many vertices your generated "newlevel" has by copy/paste it into the meta2TR exe v.8

HeinzFritz 19-05-15 22:41

@Level NextGen
You misunderstood Titak. She is using the Metaseq version 3.11, not the meta2tr version 3.11 (non existent by the way).
@Titak, costs you nothing to upgrade your Metaseq to free version 3.16.
I am afraid that you will have to check the suspicious rooms by hit and miss. But you should know in advance where you overdid with the details & room size.
Anyway, it is worth the effort. Since the newest version of meta2tr, it all works like a charm and makes most of the usual tools unnecessary.
I sometimes have the feeling that meta2tr is the ultimate tool ever built for making TR4 levels completely different compared to the average tr4 stereotypes.

Titak 21-05-15 21:12

I know all that, LevelNextGen. :D
The room that has that many vertices has already been split and reduced to a safe size.


My level is crashing after simply extracting it with Meta2TR, reducing vertices in the two rooms where it exceeds the limit and rebuilding the level with Meta2TR. :hea:
So, back to the drawing board on this one...
Making a good new start here, after not having used Meta2TR in over half a year. :rolleyes:

The report.txt lists the total number of vertices in the level:
The total number of room vertices in the level is 191767.
Is there a limit to this and if so, what is the limit? :ponder:

Also, I opted for one bmp tile per object when extracting the level.
Is that a wise thing to do when a level is already pretty stuffed to begin with?
Or is it best to extract it the old way, with the textures sort of randomly scattered over a lot less bmp tiles?

tomb2player 21-05-15 22:01

I heard that global vertices limit per level is something like 180000... so 190000 could be too much. Do you have any problems with level with this amount of vertices?

About texture sorting option, only thing I am sure about it is that it can drastically increase tex infos and textures itself in level.

EDIT: I just found old conversation archive and that limit is more or less 150000 vertices per level. But maybe with new versions of TRNG something has changed in this case and this limit has been enlarged, I really don't know.

Joey79100 21-05-15 22:32

There' a TRNG command I think, maybe a CUST_ constant, that increases the limit of textures in the TR4 file to 32768. Maybe..? :ponder:

kaufi-lc 22-05-15 02:05

This one?

SET_ACCEPT_EXTRA_TAILINFOS

Used in Settings= command.
This setting forces trng engine to accept upto 32767 tail infos in the tr4 files.
Also using this setting the limit for ngle remains the old limit of 1024 tail infos, therefore the only reason to use this setting is when you use the program meta2tr to replace the room meshes directly in tr4 file.
Since meta2tr increases the number of tail infos you can use this setting to support the new extra tail infos.
Differently when you use the tr4 creadted by ng_tom2pc without changing, this setting is futile and probably also dangerous since it could create some trouble with animated range textures.

Titak 22-05-15 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey79100 (Post 7350505)
There' a TRNG command I think, maybe a CUST_ constant, that increases the limit of textures in the TR4 file to 32768. Maybe..? :ponder:

Already using it. It's not the textures that've hit a limit here.
At least not that 32768 limit.


Hmmm... I'll have to merge less objects then to see if that solves anything.
The amount of vertices could very well be the issue here.

Does anyone know if vertices from non-merged objects are also counted?


Good thing I started with this level, the largest one in this levelset so far. :vlol:

tomb2player 22-05-15 12:59

This more or less 150000 vertex limit per level is global, which means everything - level mesh, all objects from WAD.

Can you tell what problems exactly you have with your level? It crashes to windows or something different...?

Titak 26-05-15 11:33

It simply crashed to the desktop when loading.

Anyway, I've reduced the amount of vertices considerably (it is below 140000 now) and now it is working. :D

I've also unpacked the level with Meta2TR again, leaving some objects out of the merging process and not regrouping the textures.
This reduced the number of texture info's in the level, as well as the amount of vertices, which made it easier for me to get below the 150000.
I'll most likely unpack the level again, leaving some more objects out, but I still have to decide which objects. :D

tomb2player 26-05-15 17:39

It's not matter if you leave some objects not merged or if all are merged - because this vertex limit per level is global as I said before. So level mesh + Every 3D object in WAD affect this limit :D .

EDIT: When I was merging objects to geometry, I had them "duplicated" as result in game. So new as geometry + old static from WAD. Both were overlapping, placed on the same position. For sure in this case number of vertices is duplicated. So best thing to do in my opinion is going back to room editor after merging operation and delete all old statics. Then you have to update your new room mesh with old one which can be a little time consuming, but it is in my opinion the best method to make sure that there are no "unnecessary garbage" left after merging process :D

Titak 26-05-15 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb2player (Post 7353596)
It's not matter if you leave some objects not merged or if all are merged - because this vertex limit per level is global as I said before. So level mesh + Every 3D object in WAD affect this limit :D .

Not sure I agre with this since I had a lot less vertices in the level after NOT merging a couple of objects from the wad.
So not merging objects does reduce the vertice count in the level.
At least that's what the Meta2TR log says.

And they are not duplicated either.
There sure are no two objects in one place here on my end.

The object that is merged into the map is reduced to a single point or very very small face in the static MQO or the moveables.mqo.

tomb2player 26-05-15 21:11

Meta2TR log says only level mesh vertices, so only geometry, without WAD content :)

About object duplication after merging, I had this so maybe its just that I was doing something wrong or other way than normal...

Single point or very small face, but still unnecessary garbage :D

Titak 26-05-15 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb2player (Post 7353771)
Meta2TR log says only level mesh vertices, so only geometry, without WAD content :)

Single point or very small face, but still unnecessary garbage :D

This may be, but I had to do a lot less cleaning up for the level to stop crashing.
About 40000 vertices less cleaning up.
So merged objects are counted. I guess each individually placed object is counted now, instead of just the one in the wad. :ponder:

Unnecessary, sure, but considering the total amount of vertices and textures and stuff, I'd say that's pretty much negligible. :D

tomb2player 26-05-15 22:19

I am not sure that each object placed in level from WAD is counted... including enemies. It needs some testing to clarify if its true or not.

I forgot about this completely when writing upper posts... If objects from WAD are counted only 1x , no matter how many of them are in level, then merged objects obviously will increase amount of vertices.

HeinzFritz 16-08-15 19:09

There is, apart from all the eccentric features from my meta2tr wish list, one which would be useful for all users of this great tool:

The possibility to move and rotate flyby cameras would be just great, as it would allow corrections during the final touch.

As far as I have read in another thread, all relevant aspects of the flybys have been discovered and documented, so I hope that it should not be a big problem now to implement this possibility.

P.S. The same applies to lights and fixed cameras.

tomb2player 13-12-15 17:25

I am slowly starting with Meta2TR, but.. there is one problem which I did not expected at all, until now after testing. When I move face in metasequia which has shadows applied ( shadows from shadow bulbs in NGLE ), those shadows on face remains always the same. It's not like for example Lara - If she is running in game to darker place, she becomes darker, etc.

It is not that big problem when I merge objects which were previously in WAD and level as statics. But when I import whole new mesh ( textured object ) which was not in WAD previously, it don't have any lighting at all - don't want to react to lighting from shadow bulbs placed before in NGLE... Is there any solution for this? :confused:

Titak 13-12-15 17:59

^
I take you have been copying and pasting faces?
If so, you can reset the lighting on those faces by assigning pure white light to them (V-Clr window: H=0, S=0 and V=100.)
They will then appear very light in Meta, but they will look okay ingame.

Also make sure you connect the faces to the surrounding ones, if they are not seperate objects.
When you connect them, they will, with the rest lighting, take on the lighting of the surroundings. :D

tomb2player 13-12-15 20:29

It's working, thanks :D

tomb2player 14-12-15 14:06

I am still not so experienced with Meta2TR and I have 2 questions:

1. Is it possible to change texture page assignment for object in metasequia? For example one of objects ( for example unmerged static ) is using tile001. And I want it to use lets say tile005. Can I change this directly in metasequia materials panel or somewhere else?

2. Is it possible to texture in metasequia faces, the same way as in Strpix? I mean select one face, select one texture, place selected texture on face. Will this texture be stretched to match whole polygon as it was in Strpix or in NGLE? Just curious if this is possible. So for example I can quickly change some textures in level without need to go back to NGLE or Strpix..

HeinzFritz 14-12-15 17:10

To change the texture tile for faces from Tile001.bmp to Tile005.bmp, select only this object in the right panel (show selected only), and select Tile001.bmp in the right texture panel.
Go to Edit and click: Select all faces in current material.
All faces that use Tile001.bmp will get selected.
Then select Tile005 in the texture panel.
From the Select dropdown meny chose set material to selected faces.
That's the way to texture.
To adjust texture select UV editing, the object and the according tile.
Adjust it's shape and dimension directly on the texture.

tomb2player 14-12-15 17:44

Thanks for answer. I have last one: In metasequia when camera is very close to geometry, it starts to disappear. It is not that bad if meshes are big, but when they are very small, it can be really painful to for example select and join all necessary vertices which are close to each other and very small ( because I can't zoom enough due to disappearing ). Is there any method for this? :confused:

HeinzFritz 14-12-15 18:44

This problem with zooming happens only with extremely high polygon meshes. Try to assign in preferences more system memory for Metasequoia. Then turn off "show textured" and if the view is in perspective mode, set it to ortho.
Then there is a selector which enables you to choose between dx and open gl...
Try it out and see which one is better for your system.
Select the unnecessary parts of the mesh and hide it while working on details elsewhere.
Etc, etc, etc...

HD86 04-02-16 15:48

Hello, I have a question about Metasequoia.

How can I find the material or tile that is attached to a face? Do I have to go through all the tiles until I see the one I am looking for?

Some of the textures I am using are only 1x1 pixels. I tried to find some of these but I could not.

maati139 04-02-16 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HD86 (Post 7537724)
Hello, I have a question about Metasequoia.

How can I find the material or tile that is attached to a face? Do I have to go through all the tiles until I see the one I am looking for?

Some of the textures I am using are only 1x1 pixels. I tried to find some of these but I could not.

Choose 'Mat' from Command, hold shift key and click on given face. :)

HD86 04-02-16 16:26

Many thanks, maati139.

HeinzFritz 04-02-16 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by maati139 (Post 7537746)
Choose 'Mat' from Command, hold shift key and click on given face. :)

Thanks Maati139! That was troubling me, but I was afraid to ask.
Sometimes, when having lots of texture tiles and meshes it seemed like an almost impossible task.

tomb2player 13-02-16 18:03

Is it possible to texture faces in metasequia the same way as in NGLE/TRLE or Strpix? Can you explain how to achieve this?

In this tutorial there is method of texturing "TRLE method", but I cannot understand it :)
http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=208327

Maybe there are other, more easy methods?

tomb2player 14-02-16 15:19

I learned some things by trial-error method and with help of tutorials from official meta2tr site. It's not that hard as it seems, but one question: I know how to change (resize, move, etc ) UV info/texture frame or how you can call it for particular face. However when I create new face, texture frame has always only 2 points and is line.. How to make it triangle or rectangle with 4 points? :)

HD86 16-03-16 04:35

When I use "vertex color" in Metasequoia to remove lighting from a room sector by coloring it 255,255,255, it sometimes works and sometimes not, and I do not know why.

Addition

I do not know if I am doing something wrong, but sometimes the meta2tr app ignores pure white lighting (255,255,255) applied to room sectors when RoomsAndFloor.mqo is imported into it. Thus the file "do_not_delete" will retain the older lighting and this will not be replaced by the pure white lighting (which means no internal lighting). Anyway, I solved this by deleting the room sectors and importing RoomsAndFloor.mqo, which will cause these sectors to be deleted from "do_not_delete" along with their lighting, and then I undo the deletion and import RoomsAndFloor.mqo again.

Titak 25-03-16 19:20

I have some objects which won't take on the surrounding lighting even though they are merged with the room geometry.
They do keep their static lighting even if I assign the pure white lighting.
They do react to Lara's PLS for example, just not to ambient lighting.

http://titak.tombraiderhub.com/MoA/lightingbug.jpg

What can I do to get these objects to react to the lighting of the room? :ponder:

AODfan 25-03-16 20:34

Did you set the lighting mode to moveable? That always did the trick for me.

Titak 25-03-16 21:12

In Meta? How? :confused:
All I ever do is set lighting to pure white, which usually does the trick.
Just ot in this case. And I've tried it over and over again, but it does not work.


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