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-   -   Shadow of the Tomb Raider - General Chat (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=219557)

VictorXD 25-11-20 03:52

^ I don't mind them as much as I do in the LAU trilogy, I just think that it was something no one asked for and didn't make any sense to bring it back in the first place, and unfortunately their inclusion and focus cheapened what they were trying to do with Lara's character. It was decision that didn't make much sense in the first place and in the end backfired horribly for what they wanted to achieve.

But as for their actual characters? I don't really hold a negative opinion on them on the survivor trilogy, and I'm actually in the minority that liked how they were handled in shadow. It really just is a matter of beating a dead horse when there was absolutely no need.

LateRaider 25-11-20 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorXD (Post 8255641)
^ I don't mind them as much as I do in the LAU trilogy, I just think that it was something no one asked for and didn't make any sense to bring it back in the first place, and unfortunately their inclusion and focus cheapened what they were trying to do with Lara's character. It was decision that didn't make much sense in the first place and in the end backfired horribly for what they wanted to achieve.

But as for their actual characters? I don't really hold a negative opinion on them on the survivor trilogy, and I'm actually in the minority that liked how they were handled in shadow. It really just is a matter of beating a dead horse when there was absolutely no need.

100% cosigned. i disagree with you on the small bit that their inclusion made it all about them but otherwise yes, our opinions are identical

Zsott 25-11-20 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear (Post 8255519)
In Shadow Lara overcomes her past (in particular she finally completely accepts the death of their parents (as shown in the ending when she gets the power of the box and the key combined) and she defeats Trinity once and for all.

Nice story, tell me more... but wait: we are stuck with her problems since 2006. ...or 2003 if we count the first movie too.

Quote:

From now on she will cherish the mysteries of the world and start exploring because SHE wants to, not because of her father, not to end Trinity.
Hmm... she literally said this (minus the trinity bit) at the end of RoTR. Yet nothing happened. So there goes the 'deep' storytelling.
SoTR's and in general the latest trilogy's storytelling just as deep as a frozen bag of french fries. But each to their own.

Quote:

I don't get why some people would have preferred a cheesy moment where she would have wore shorts and raised her dual pistols saying "I'm the Tomb Raider"...
I wonder what do you know about the previous iteration(s) of Lara, because right now it seems you -just like Crystal D- have a misconception of Tomb Raider.
Tomb Raider was not a trait, or a person to become to.
It was a nickname, put on Lara by journalists (not real life ones, but in her universe) because of the artefacts and places she found.
Her bio even stated, that she was despised by archeologists, because of her carelessnes, not to mention how she gunned down of believed to be exinct or endangered species.
Everything she did, or found was because she wanted to, for her own amusement. She had no ulterior motive, or big meanings for her actions. However when she screwed up, she tried to fix it. Reboot Lara doesn't work like that at all. Her motives are totally different.
There was no need of an origin story, or anything like 'I'm the tomb raider'.
All that was needed a freshened up take on LAU and some tweaks to Lara, not some completely different woman, who has the same name.


And no, she is not the same. Sharing personality traits does not make two person the same. Period.

LNSNHGTDS 25-11-20 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorXD (Post 8255634)
That's what I'm saying though, the fascination for archaeology should be priority, not a serendipity for whatever ****ty situation she is in, which is one of my main problems with the reboot story arc.

I also think that, Rise out of all 3 games, fails in the storytelling department. Because it thinks, and it wants to tell one story, which is about Lara and how much she's grown, but it ends up telling another one, which is "random white girl saves long lost village while constantly reminding herself of her daddy issues". Lara gets sidelined and she is hardly the protagonist of her own story, and Richard, who should have been nothing but a starting point for her research, becomes a postmortem star. It is his ex who is the villain seeking the artefact he found, and how his suicide damaged Lara etc, and all the while the game is always reminding us how important Richard is and how much we should care about him, when in fact, we don't. Be it because Lara is mentioning him or the villains are. And all of these faults are aggravated by the fact that any distinguishing personality Lara had by the end of TR2013, is mostly gone in the sequel.

And by doing that, Shadow's story and subsequent closing of Lara's development arc, got affected in a negative way, cheapening the story, her character, her arc, and any "wow" factor the game could have proposed to us.

I think it's a matter of perception. Throughout all three games Richard is painted as inferior to Lara. It's not about "making it all about him" it's about showing how even though Lara based her expeditions on his research and his work her field experience and skills far surpassed those of her father's and where he failed she succeeded and on the plus side didn't get herself killed by Trinity. I don't think it needed or had to be there but I don't really mind Richard and Amelia either. In Amelia's case I actually think they did her storyline better this time too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsott (Post 8255648)
Nice story, tell me more... but wait: we are stuck with her problems since 2006. ...or 2003 if we count the first movie too.


Hmm... she literally said this (minus the trinity bit) at the end of RoTR. Yet nothing happened. So there goes the 'deep' storytelling.
SoTR's and in general the latest trilogy's storytelling just as deep as a frozen bag of french fries. But each to their own.



I wonder what do you know about the previous iteration(s) of Lara, because right now it seems you -just like Crystal D- have a misconception of Tomb Raider.
Tomb Raider was not a trait, or a person to become to.
It was a nickname, put on Lara by journalists (not real life ones, but in her universe) because of the artefacts and places she found.
Her bio even stated, that she was despised by archeologists, because of her carelessnes, not to mention how she gunned down of believed to be exinct or endangered species.
Everything she did, or found was because she wanted to, for her own amusement. She had no ulterior motive, or big meanings for her actions. However when she screwed up, she tried to fix it. Reboot Lara doesn't work like that at all. Her motives are totally different.
There was no need of an origin story, or anything like 'I'm the tomb raider'.
All that was needed a freshened up take on LAU and some tweaks to Lara, not some completely different woman, who has the same name.


And no, she is not the same. Sharing personality traits does not make two person the same. Period.

There hasn't been a game after Shadow yet so how are we supposed to know how Survivor Lara, who is as much Lara Croft as Classic Lara is whether people like it or not, acts like without the family drama and "responsibilities" holding her down?

Survivor Lara went adventuring because she had to so far but literally the whole point was for players to see that even if Lara was forced into those situations she still enjoyed finding things and examining them. I understand it could have been a lot more fleshed out but I guess the whole point of the origins story is that we're gonna be seeing more of that from now on.

Rai 25-11-20 17:55

Personally, i think it's natural that Lara's parents got brought into the story of her origins as she embarks on a lifestyle of adventuring. But it's not all about them, far from it (imo).

If we're looking for motivations and proof that Lara wasn't all about doing this out of some sort of duty, let's not forget the reason she was on the trip to Yamatai in the first place. It wasn't out of some duty to her dad, it was because she wanted to find adventure, she was fascinated by the myth surrounding Yamatai and Himiko and wanted to be involved in its discovery. Throughout the game she uses the knowledge she already has, and new knowledge as she finds more clues, in figuring out the truth behind the myth.

Her father was mentioned, what, 2-3 times?

Rise, yes, I think they put her father into the limelight a bit much, putting him on a pedestal. But it should be noted that Richard didn't find the artefact, he was searching for it, but he didn't find the connection between Syria and Kitezh and the Deathless Prophet. Lara made the connection, because Lara found the clue. Lara uses her own knowledge and her own abilities to find the clues and put the pieces together and it was Lara that made the discoveries because she was willing to go the extra mile to put herself on the line. She had the skills to go head to head with Trinity. Sure it was Richard's ex who was involved in Trinity and it was Trinity who took an interest in Richard initially, but it was Lara that they felt was worth watching. They had Richard killed . It was Lara they kept alive because her skills and knowledge could lead them to the artefact and it was Lara who made the decision to destroy the artefact rather than keep it. You'll note it was Ana begging Lara for her to keep the artefact, even though she held it in her hands, showing Ana's weakness, while Lara has the strength to 'sacrifice' her own reputation and needs. Rise is about how Lara excels and succeeds in the end. Yes, she's deeply effected by her father's death, who wouldn't be? If anything, I think it's his suicide that stunts her progress as an adventurous child into the more withdrawn, cautious young woman, who focuses on the research and historical side of things over the sheer wonder that myths can bring.

In Shadow we're shown how Lara has had this adventurous side from a young age. We were told about her first find at aged 5, and her adventurous side is only hinted at in the flashbacks (climbing the outside of the building instead of using the stairs), but we finally get to see it. She's curious an inquisitive, knowledgeable and thoughtful. Lara's motivation at the beginning was to put a stop to Trinity once and for all, to destroy the organisation completely. Because she's seen first hand how dangerous they are and worse how much more dangerous they could be, She's been effected by them personally. And yet, this adventure reminds her of the joy and wonder she used to feel as a child. She'd not completely lost it, but I think it had lain dormant, ignited with the trip to Yamatai, but she was side-lined somewhat by her father's research. In Shadow though she's introduced to the very artefacts that could tempt her to give her heart's desire, for the childhood she could have had. In Rise she was able to sacrifice her father's obsessions, but in Shadow she has her own. She is able to let it go, to keep the past in the past. She can't let her own past, her guilt towards her father, her lost friends, her grief hold her back anymore. She accepts where she's happiest, finally to be able to flourish and embrace her chosen path.

I think Lenny's right. While we can see glimpses of Lara's own passions in archaeology and history, and gradually through Shadow, her thrill for adventure, we just can't see it properly through the origin story lens. Let's see Lara no longer encumbered with the past, in an adventure just for the thrill of it first before comparing her unfavourably besides C-Lara.

LateRaider 25-11-20 21:45

rai always has the best takes and that's that

LNSNHGTDS 25-11-20 21:49

Indeed. And she always presents then so eloquently and in-offensively.

I mean this in the most non-ass-licking way but Rai is an inspiration to always try and do better as a TRF member xD

Raider8 26-11-20 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateRaider (Post 8255839)
rai always has the best takes and that's that

Indeed.

Zsott 05-12-20 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by LNSNHGTDS (Post 8255682)
There hasn't been a game after Shadow yet so how are we supposed to know how Survivor Lara, who is as much Lara Croft as Classic Lara is whether people like it or not, acts like without the family drama and "responsibilities" holding her down?

Several comics and two books.
Everything she'd done so far, was not for adventuring purposes aka being a Tomb Raider.
She went back to Yamatai multiple times to save Sam. She spent a good amount of time of lifting a curse off of Sam, Reyes and Jonah.
Finally, Trinity showed up and everything was about them and her family. Insert RoTR. Even the mushroom saga was nonsense, because if you call those cultists Trinity, nothing would change. Not to mention, even there she had a ulterior, bigger -do some good- intention. Not just doing something for the heck of it. Finally she was hunting trinity cells down,then spending an entire book of fighting Trinity.Insert last game

Ever since the 'The Beginning' comic, she had this dramatic, two goody shoes attitude, while Tomb Raider as a whole was not about that; shouldn't be about that. By the last game it became tiring. We had this promise (2011-13 campaing), that Lara will become the person that we all knew, yet there's no trace of it.
Earlier incarnation of her did set an apocalypse in motion, but the way she dealt with it was very different. It was because she was an entirely different person.
She wasn't caring about Von Croy, nor the inhabitants of Cairo, besides Jean Yves.
While now, she was guilt shaming herself for what she caused, so she managed to insert herself into a political mess, which happened to be related -shocking- to Trinity.

Wether you like it or not current interpretation is not the same as the classic or its freshened up LAU version. If you think that, you are lying to yourself.
I'm in no position to tell you which is better, which one should you like, but it's crystal clear, that there's a big difference between these womens, because they are different persons.
Again, sharing personality traits will not make two person the same.

You and I can have the same name, the same traits. We can even go to the same school, being born on the same day, liking the same food, but we will never be the same person, because of our different families, values, upbringing and experiences in life etc. This applies to Lara too.
I mean... for starters, classic was made in the '90s and it shows, not only by desing. Current interpretation was made in 2008-13 and it shows, not just by desing.
Then, just like I said earlier, the personas are working very differently:

Core Lara doing whatever she wants, because she wants to. She got disowned , because of that. She still does not care.
She's making money out of her books which describes her adventures (and tour guides).

Crystal LAU Lara: is influenced by her father, motivated by the loss of her mother. (She even says so) Still, she's enjoying herself, making her quite fun.

Crystal revamped Lara: out of college, refusing to touch heritence, because 'Imma make it for meself'; spending literally multiple years of saving her best friend, influenced by her father,solely motivated by her loss. Then revenge and just be the good girl and save the world from Trinity.
She might enjoy adventuring, but it doesn't shows.

All in all, if that progress she made in RoTR wouldn't have been repeated in SoTR and would've carried herself differently: actually having a similiar confident attitude to the previous two, I would agree with you, that she's just as much Lara Croft like before. Right now, there are contradictions (about her mother and her time of death) and she showed no progress of evolution since the first game. (since she was acting the same in the last two games.)

Anyway... I found this video, with some behind the scenes info.

LNSNHGTDS 05-12-20 06:35

Again, we haven't had a major video game adventure with Survivor Lara after her origins story arc. The whole point was to do the origins story and showcase the events that led up to Lara becoming a hardened adventurer. She won't magically transform into Classic Lara but we're gonna be seeing more of her traits more prominently than before.

The basic elements are still there. Whether the plot, gameplay, family drama, dramatic presentation prevent certain individuals from seeing them or enjoying them is a whole other topic and probably the main issue for most I assume, which is valid, but Lara is Lara.


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