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-   -   Larson... "Conway"? (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=221077)

Mek 18-01-21 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateRaider (Post 8270287)
it's the closest to an answer we have. i think it's official enough if it's by official crystal dynamics staff, regardless of whether or not she got it by checking wikiraider or the tomb raider fandom wiki

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that it is not enough to say it's official. Another three reasons:
  • Core Design timeline is separate to the Crystal Dynamics timeline. We have only information about Larson in Tomb Raider Chronicles being Conway so the confirmation would be only about the Core Design timeline. This change would be made by another studio after 16 years of the release date of the game. Sorry, but this does not seem legit for me.
  • If you honor such a change, then every detail could be changed this way. We could all agree that Natla would be Natla X from now, we would change all of the wikis and there would be a "30 Years of Tomb Raider" guide in 2026 and its author would copy the error from the wikis without checking sources because a surname is just a detail and it would become canon. Does it feel right? Definitely not. If Crystals had made this change consciously and if it had appeared in a game, then it would matter I think.
  • If you say that DuPont is fanon, then why don't you apply the same logic to Larson who always was just Larson in the games? When one sees DuPont in the guide, one could say that Meagan Marie changed the official spelling to DuPont...

LateRaider 18-01-21 09:08

I mean, you're welcome to your opinion. I'm sorry, I should've been more explicit: it is my opinion that this is as close to an official answer as we'll get. I feel sated enough to say the search is concluded.

Mek 18-01-21 19:52

I thought the search was to find the explanation of Dr. Cheese sources and not just any official source which says "Conway".

Nevertheless, (no offence to you) I believe we can do better. In the future, there will probably be a chance to make an interview with developers of Tomb Raider: Anniversary. Then, they could be asked about "Conway".

LateRaider 18-01-21 21:10

That would be nice. I mean, yeah, I would love to find Dr. Cheese but I feel like it's impossible at this point. Dr. Cheese is such a generic name and I don't even know where we'd find them.

Moon-Safari 18-01-21 21:54

the show "Lost" was popular at the time. So I always assumed they were inspired by the actor who is very southern and reminiscent of Larson. His name is Josh Hollaway... Conway, Hollaway. Always rang a bell for me.


BlueCake 18-01-21 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikky (Post 8164691)
Damn... Reading this thread is so effing weird. This must be a case of the Mandela Effect or something, because before this thread, I would have sworn on my future children's limbs that Larson is named "Larson Conway" in the TRA in-game biographies. Where did I even get that name from then? I wasn't part of the forums or even involved in the fandom back in 2007...

Same here, i could swear his bio in TRA had Conway in it. :(
On a side note, his leaked model file in TRAE reads Larson, no Larsen here.

LateRaider 22-07-21 02:52

I didn't think I'd still be posting in this thread nearly 3 years after I made it, but here we are.

So, right, Keeley Hawes will be voicing Lara in Tomb Raider Reloaded. But that's not relevant to this topic. In the cutscene added to TRR's latest build, Lara mentions Larson Conway by name--in a voiced line, no less.

Here

Credit to our very own Charmedangelin for this video.

After watching it, I spoke with with Ed regarding the curiosity of Larson Conway. To distill our conversation to the basics:

- I directed him to this thread and my article, recommending the article due to its comparative brevity
- I informed him Conway is a fanon name
- I also let him know Vicky Arnold intended it as a surname
- I encouraged him to keep it and directed him to Megan's book, where Conway is also used
- He told me that Neha, Meagan, and Dallas will be the ones to weigh in on what to do with the name now that the information has come to light
- While I was at it, I let him know about the name Pierre Dupont being spelled with a lowercase p in TRI N-Gage and TR:A's subtitles

This is certainly an interesting development. Only time will tell what the future holds for this beloved minor villain. At this point? I honestly hope they allow TRR to keep the name. It's been fanon for so long that it may as well be canon. Literally no one noticed for 11 years until I made this thread, after all! Maybe I shouldn't have said anything to Ed, I don't know. But I feel like as the holder of this information I should share my knowledge.

edit - high quality screenshots of the important parts.

Larson's "unified" design by Emerald City Games
https://i.imgur.com/VO6i8wq.png

(Temporarily?) Canonized Larson Conway
https://i.imgur.com/EPL1yiL.png

Frceghst8 23-07-21 00:05

^ Until it becomes canon, it still is irrelevant as Larson is a minor character.

LateRaider 23-07-21 00:54

thanks for your contribution, it was helpful and insightful! :)

KillerZ 17-11-21 01:19

Little Update to his name.

Apparently he was called Karl Larsen in the August 2nd, 1995 design document. Lara was also Cruz in that time still.

https://www.tombraiderchronicles.com...ed.pdf#page=62

https://i.imgur.com/5fMjKwb.png

LateRaider 17-11-21 10:20

Wow, I think for a certainty we can say that that's Core Larson's first name.

God, this is weird to think of. Thanks for bringing it to my attentionm KillerZ.

Kidd Bowyer 17-11-21 18:27

Yeah, I'd rather "Larson" be his last name, or a nickname or something. Kinda like how people in the military often refer to each other by surnames.

Jathom95 17-11-21 18:38

Of course, going by the spelling in the design document - Karl Larsen sounds more Norwegian than what they ended up with. But yeah, I've always felt Larson sounded more of a surname than his first name. Especially with his role as a hired gun.

.snake. 17-11-21 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jathom95 (Post 8331401)
Of course, going by the spelling in the design document - Karl Larsen sounds more Norwegian than what they ended up with. But yeah, I've always felt Larson sounded more of a surname than his first name. Especially with his role as a hired gun.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Although, he could be American of Norwegian descent. Although I think Carl would probably be the more Americanized spelling of the name.

Come to think of it, Lara does say "Ah, the charming Mr. Larson..." to him in the opening FMV of the TR5 Rome levels. So we could argue Larsen/Larson is still his surname by that point.

LateRaider 01-12-21 19:34

https://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/headlines4377.html

The article has updated with the potential canonization and Karl Larsen info. New stuff is at the end.

Kidd Bowyer 01-12-21 20:09

Alright, so Karl Larson, eh?

It has a pretty cool ring to it.

tomblover 05-12-21 14:57

To add to this, I'm pretty sure in the Japanese version of TR1, Natla refers to him by name exactly once, as 「ラーセン」 i.e. "Larsen" - whereas in Chronicles, Lara says 「ラーソン」i.e. "Larson."

The transliteration of Western names into Japanese can be kind of arbitrary, but it's worth noting.

LateRaider 05-12-21 18:37

Interesting trivia. I appreciate it! :) Thank you Tomblover ♥

Rai 05-12-21 22:19

The Treeble posted this on twitter, asked me to post it:

Quote:

I can't seem to find LateRaider anymore, can anyone tag him maybe? This is from the cookbook, Conway might just be canon at this point. https://t.co/TS0Qq1p2lt
https://mobile.twitter.com/thetreebl...17992771096576

LateRaider 06-12-21 03:12

Thanks, Rai. Heh, of course! Right after I make my article update.

------

Moving this to its own post, more or less.

For anyone just joining us, I made an abridged history of Larson/Larsen's name.

The Search for Conway

1. 1995 - Vicky Arnold writes different drafts for the script of Tomb Raider I. In one such draft, she designates a man from Little Rock, Arkansas, USA as "Karl Larsen," Larsen being his surname. The first name "Karl" is not mentioned outside of one such draft.

2. 1996 - Prima release a strategy guide for Tomb Raider I, written by Nick Roberts. While Vicky's spelling of "Larsen" is used for the first encounter with him, curiously it's later spelled "Larson."

3. 1998 - Gary Whitta writes a screenplay of Tomb Raider: The Movie. This is not greenlit and is instead moved to Patrick Massett and John Zinman. A character named Milo Trevelyan features in Gary's screenplay, which he abandons.

4. 1999 - Precedence release the Tomb Raider Collectible Card Game. Larsen is a featured character in this again; his name is spelled Vicky's original way.

5. 2000 - The man from Arkansas returns in Tomb Raider: Chronicles' first flashback set of levels. In an official character render with his biography, his name is spelled "Larson." This is also how his name is spelled in his game model data and code comments. Prima release a strategy guide for the game, written by James Price, and spell his name in the same fashion. (Guide scans eventually posted by Zreen001 so LateRaider could verify for themself)

6. 2001 - The film Lara Croft Tomb Raider is released. A fansite dedicated to it called "TRmovie.com" springs up. Gary releases his screenplay publicly to the fansite.

7. July 2003 - TRmovie.com's domain expires, taking Gary Whitta's screenplay with it.

8. October 2003 - Tomb Raider I is ported to N-Gage. The cutscenes are removed and replaced with scrolling text narration. Larsen's name is spelled in Vicky's way.

9. 2003-2006 - Somehow, fandom legend turns Milo Trevelyan's name into Milo Larson. With Gary's script gone, there is no one to refute this.

10. 2006 - Core Design, hoping for a chance to make up for the unfinished Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness, start working on a PSP spin-off title called Tomb Raider: 10th Anniversary Edition, a remake of the first entry. Eidos do not officially greenlight the project, but encourage Core to continue working on it while informing Crystal Dynamics, who feel compelled to make a rival project. Within 10th Anniversary Edition, the model file of the American Southern villain is labeled "Larson." Ultimately, Crystal Dynamics' project is the one greenlit.

11. January 2007 - Tomb Raider: Anniversary is announced, slated to be released later this year. On Tomb Raider Forums, a user by the name of Jo269976 authors a topic reporting a statement by a user of IMDb's forums, Dr. Cheese. According to them, the Australian PC PowerPlay Magazine has revealed a list of characters to appear in TR:A, a "Larson Conway" among them. Dr. Cheese promises to return with scans.

12. January to June 2007 - Fan-made wikis and sites quickly add the "Conway" surname to almost any page about Larson, becoming another fandom legend--this time sticking so well it becomes almost common knowledge.

13. June 2007 - Tomb Raider: Anniversary is released. Prima release a strategy guide for it, written by David Hodgson. No mention is made of another name for Larson in either the game or guide. (Guide scans eventually posted by KillerZ so LateRaider could verify for themself)

14. 2007-2009 - "Conway" continues to be the commonly-accepted surname for Larson, despite no official media source.

15. 2009 - Mark Czajor writes a digital Tomb Raider: Anniversary guide for Gamepressure. In it, he designates a surname for Larson: "Dawson." This does not catch on outside of a few Polish fansites that source the Gamepressure guide.

16. 2009-2016 - "Conway" steamrolls ahead unquestioned.

17. October 2016 - Meagan Marie, the Tomb Raider Community Manager at the time, releases the book 20 Years of Tomb Raider to commemorate the series' 20th anniversary. In the Tomb Raider: Chronicles section, she notes how the Rome section opens with Lara being "tailed by longtime rivals Larson Conway and Pierre DuPont." Misspelling of Pierre's surname aside, this use in an official material cements Dr. Cheese's invented surname as canon.

18. 2017 - IMDb shuts down its forum, taking Dr. Cheese's topic with it, assuming it wasn't already deleted previously.

19. May 2018 - LateRaider replays Tomb Raider: Anniversary and notices that Larson is credited simply as "Larson." Thus begins the search.

20. June 2018 - LateRaider locates PC PowerPlay #135 from February 2007. It does not mention Larson.

21. July 2018 - LateRaider theorizes that Dr. Cheese never existed; however, they later find a thread on Lara Croft Online that linked directly to the now-nonexistent thread by Dr. Cheese. More plausible is that Dr. Cheese made up the "Conway" surname and never returned with scans.

22. September 2018 - LateRaider emails Roli on Raiding the Globe. They point them toward the Prima strategy guides; thanks to Zreen001 and paul123456, they are checked and verified, but ultimately lead to a dead end. LateRaider also emails Justin on TombRaiderChronicles.com; Justin accepts the request but is unable to deliver.

23. 2019 - Paul Douglas, one of the original developers for Tomb Raider I, is quite openly discussing behind-the-scenes information about the game and its planning. LateRaider asks about Larson's name, and Paul informs them that Vicky always spelled it "Larsen" and it was his surname. LateRaider goes on to ask corporate-employed Tomb Raider community manager Morrigan if she knows anything and does not hear back.

24. 2020 - LateRaider becomes curious about the "Milo Larson" name and finds the TRmovie.com site on the Wayback Machine. They discover the "Milo Trevelyan" character's name. It is another dead end.

25. January 2021 - Enya Brennan brings it to LateRaider's attention that Meagan used the surname "Conway" in 20 Years of Tomb Raider, in a shocking conclusion to the search.

26. July 2021 - Tomb Raider Reloaded, the mobile app game softlaunched at the time, brings back Keeley Hawes--Lara's voice actress from the Legend Trilogy and the Lara Croft side series--to voice cutscenes. In the scene added to build 0.9.0, TRR writer and director Ed Perkins has written a script in which the man from Arkansas is called "Larson Conway." LateRaider brings their research to his attention, sparking the possibility of a script revision. If this is not changed, it would further cement Conway's canon status, elevating the fan-canon name.

27. October 2021 - This date saw the release of Tomb Raider: The Official Cookbook and Travel Guide, co-written by Sebastian Haley, Tara Theoharis, and community manager Meagan Marie. In it, a quote is attributed to Larson Conway, further cementing the canonization of Dr. Cheese's invented surname.

28. November 2021 - KillerZ brings it to LateRaider's attention that TombRaiderChronicles.com now hosts design documents for TRI; the Karl Larsen name is there to see freely.

29. December 2021 - thetreeble gives the "Larson Conway" cookbook information to Rai, who passes it to LateRaider in December of this year. The name is looking more and more canon.

30. March 2022 - Ed Perkins left Square Enix. It is unknown if the Conway surname will be kept. Given that it's an insignificant detail, it's likely.

31. May 2022 - Crystal Dynamics (and therefore Tomb Raider) are sold to Embracer Group. Tomb Raider Reloaded's fate is unknown, but as of this writing appears to still be in development.


Current Status

The name originated as Karl Larsen in a 1995 script for TRI, but this first name didn't appear in-game. The surname, however, shifted spellings from Larsen from 1995-2000 to Larson from 2000-2003, where there was a short-lived return to form in the N-Gage port. Amidst all this, Milo Trevelyan became "Milo Larson" in the fandom, but this is quickly forgotten as Gary Whitta's script is lost.

He became Larson again starting in 2007, where Dr. Cheese used the TR: Chronicles supplementary materials' spelling, and designated a surname. Due to a number of factors (Sheer luck, wishful thinking, etc.), this spreads like wildfire throughout the fandom at large and it more or less becomes widely-accepted canon. The name is spelled as "Larson" in TR: Anniversary (With no sign of the Conway surname) and never appears in the series from there on. A walkthrough site tries to give him the surname "Dawson," but said attempt fades into obscurity rather quickly.

I decide to investigate and debunk several myths ("Conway" is not official and did not come from PC PowerPlay; it was originally spelled "Larsen"; there is no "Milo Larson"). There is still no lead on the origins of "Conway". However, Meagan Marie pointedly drops the full name "Larson Conway" in her books 20 Years of Tomb Raider and Tomb Raider: The Official Cookbook and Travel Guide, meaning that it has been adopted into canon. Further, as of this writing Tomb Raider Reloaded includes a cutscene written by Ed Perkins, where Larson is called "Larson Conway." However, Ed has left Square Enix, and Tomb Raider was sold to Embracer Group besides. If TR Reloaded ceases development, "Conway's" place in canon will return to being disputable.

.snake. 06-12-21 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateRaider (Post 8334154)
5. 2000 - The man from Arkansas returns in Tomb Raider: Chronicles' first flashback set of levels. In an official character render with his biography, his name is spelled "Larson." This is also how his name is spelled in his game model data. Prima release a strategy guide for the game, written by James Price, and spell his name in the same fashion. (Guide scans eventually posted by Zreen001 so LateRaider could verify for themself)

Just a minor thing, not related to his name and that carries no great weight, so you may want to add it or not: You mention him as being the "man from Arkansas" when he returns in Chronicles. But, oddly enough, he seems to be from Texas in Chronicles, at least according to this scanned profile page.

https://i.imgur.com/b2c5uQ5.jpg

Of course, there is no Little Rock, TX, only a Round Rock, TX... but there does happen to be a Little Rock, AR. So, this is most likely just another error on Core's part.

LateRaider 06-12-21 07:20

yeah lol. i like to pretend that the "little rock, texas" thing doesn't exist lmao

i'm trying to get in contact with justin to do a small update of my article but it seems he has DMs off?

tlr online 06-12-21 07:52

Back on again.

LateRaider 06-12-21 17:55

Thank you kindly, Justin! :)

The article has been edited with the newest addition from the thetreeble. This should mark the end of things until TR Reloaded releases proper. But you never know; I've been surprised a few times before, lol.

KillerZ 18-02-22 02:55

It's funny I've never noticed it before, but when I started my Chronicles playthough this year, I noticed how Lara calls him Mr. Larson in Rome's intro video. Isn't Mr. used before the last name. The clue was right before our eyes the whole time.

SamCactus101 23-03-22 04:39

Yeah, I agree with those who say Larson sounds more like a last name haha. It feels so.... "surname-y" lol

dg1995 24-03-22 21:58

Is it actually canon that a horse hit Larson in the head ?

LateRaider 25-03-22 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg1995 (Post 8348246)
Is it actually canon that a horse hit Larson in the head ?

How is that relevant to my thread? :)

dg1995 25-03-22 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateRaider (Post 8348273)
How is that relevant to my thread? :)

Since this is the most active Larson thread I thought I ask it here.:p

.snake. 27-03-22 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg1995 (Post 8348246)
Is it actually canon that a horse hit Larson in the head ?

Of course it's canon. Larson indirectly confirms it. What type of question is that?

dg1995 28-03-22 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by .snake. (Post 8348540)
Of course it's canon. Larson indirectly confirms it. What type of question is that?

There is a chance that it isn't canon since Chronicles wasn't completely canon.(Since both Larson and Pierre die in it.)

.snake. 28-03-22 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg1995 (Post 8348631)
There is a chance that it isn't canon since Chronicles wasn't completely canon.(Since both Larson and Pierre die in it.)

Interesting. I didn't realize Chronicles wasn't considered canon by some people. I feel very sorry for them.


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